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Ok kids, here is the concept of this thread.
Ultimate Magic is new, most people don't even have it in their hands yet.
So if there is something in it that is broken, or if some interaction between it and other classes is broken, now is the time to discuss it so.
And if it isn't broken, this is also the time to praise the balance they found.
Possible areas to look at that hit me (but feel free to add)
- Alchemist stuff, with an eye on multiclass rogues and vivisectionists.
- Wisdom bases sorcerers (Multiclassing, Mystic Thurge, etc...)
- Magus vs EK
- Wizard "Fast Study" making picking spells on the fly much, much easier.
Discuss!
In regards to the magus vs EK just look at the threads in the playtest. The Magus is nearly identical to the round 3 playtest version and there was a fair amount of discussion on the subject. It wasn't broken then it isnt broken now. The magus is probably better at lower levels, but when you get to mid to high levels the EK has the advantage in both BAB and casting power. Though the magus will still have alot more cool toys (class abilities) to play with.
In regards to the wisdom sorcs, I dont see a problem in terms of anything being broken. Mystic thurge has always been a low powered concept. Making them single ability dependent one make them broken. 2 Ability scores was never the MT's biggest problem.
One thing I think is sort of breaking is the new spells to convert things to masterwork quality.
Crafting is already a broken system, and I didn't particularly care for the idea that a spellcaster could use Fabricate and Spellcraft to make items without understanding how they work. But it's even worse now. Now you can pick up a rusty dull dagger, pay 300gp in reagents, and it's magically a Masterwork dagger, made by a caster with no skill in weapons crafting, or even knowing how to use the weapons at all.
Yeah, not making it into my games at all.
A smaller issue is the infinite food issue. :) Kill a cow, skin all the meat off the bones. Cast Restore Corpse on it. It's now covered with rotting meat again. Cut the rotting meat off. Put it in a pile, and cast Purify Food and Water on the rotting meat. It's now good edible meat. Rinse and repeat until you run out of spells. Tomorrow, do the same thing. A single cow can generate, with just one adept of low level, 3-4 cows worth of meat per day for the rest of time. Why bother raising cattle, it's expensive. Just keep a couple of skeletons around and restore corpse/purify as needed.
- Wisdom bases sorcerers (Multiclassing, Mystic Thurge, etc...)
Don't see it as broken, and it opens up some interesting multiclass options. For example, Monk/Sorcerer is now a much better synergy.
Don't see it as broken, and it opens up some interesting multiclass options. For example, Monk/Sorcerer is now a much better synergy.
- Wisdom bases sorcerers (Multiclassing, Mystic Thurge, etc...)
hm...monk sorc dragon disciple...that seems like it could be fun.
hm...monk sorc dragon disciple...that seems like it could be fun.Don't see it as broken, and it opens up some interesting multiclass options. For example, Monk/Sorcerer is now a much better synergy.
- Wisdom bases sorcerers (Multiclassing, Mystic Thurge, etc...)
Personally, I prefer Stormborn Zen Archer Sorc/Monk. :) Flurry of blows, and adding Shock to the bow for the turn.. at 2nd level.
One thing I think is sort of breaking is the new spells to convert things to masterwork quality.
Crafting is already a broken system, and I didn't particularly care for the idea that a spellcaster could use Fabricate and Spellcraft to make items without understanding how they work. But it's even worse now. Now you can pick up a rusty dull dagger, pay 300gp in reagents, and it's magically a Masterwork dagger, made by a caster with no skill in weapons crafting, or even knowing how to use the weapons at all.
Yeah, not making it into my games at all.
A smaller issue is the infinite food issue. :) Kill a cow, skin all the meat off the bones. Cast Restore Corpse on it. It's now covered with rotting meat again. Cut the rotting meat off. Put it in a pile, and cast Purify Food and Water on the rotting meat. It's now good edible meat. Rinse and repeat until you run out of spells. Tomorrow, do the same thing. A single cow can generate, with just one adept of low level, 3-4 cows worth of meat per day for the rest of time. Why bother raising cattle, it's expensive. Just keep a couple of skeletons around and restore corpse/purify as needed.
huh how is this broken? all he saves is time he pays exactly what he would have if he baught the item.
the difference I'n time is highly noticeable but to be honest the crafting rules are a pain. this let's a player make things while ignoring a tedious mechanic.
Personally, I prefer Stormborn Zen Archer Sorc/Monk. :) Flurry of blows, and adding Shock to the bow for the turn.. at 2nd level.hm...monk sorc dragon disciple...that seems like it could be fun.Don't see it as broken, and it opens up some interesting multiclass options. For example, Monk/Sorcerer is now a much better synergy.
- Wisdom bases sorcerers (Multiclassing, Mystic Thurge, etc...)
Ah, would need to take the cross-blooded archetype, obviously, to get the shock thing.
Oooh, was thinking of this earlier this morning. . .
Spell Specialization is a nice ability for a blaster caster. It's kind of awesome when combined with Spell Perfection.
With a +1 caster boost (through the orange ioun stone or gnome's pyromaniac, etc.), Spell Perfection can increase a spell by 5 caster levels.
This assumes Spell Perfection doubles the bonus for Spell Specialization.
So at 15th level, with a gnome pyromaniac sorcerer with the red draconic bloodline using a free Empower Spell feat (thanks to Spell Perfection) and a greater rod of maximize spell on delayed blast fireball:
120 + 10d6 (35 avg.) + 20 = 175 avg. damage at level 15 for one standard action. Not bad.
This isn't too far off though from the old 3.5 prestige class that gave +5 caster levels. But it's nice to be able to do it with a few feats instead. . .
Add in a quickened spell of *blank* -- how about quickened fireball?
175 + 10d6 (35 avg.) + 10 = 220 avg. damage.
(Obviously level 15 mobs are more likely to save against a quickened fireball, but it's one of the better options for a quickened spell. . .)
So that's 220 damage in an area -- still have a move action to fly away -- and it could be done from 1200 ft. away -- nearly a quarter of a mile away. Nice.
huh how is this broken? all he saves is time he pays exactly what he would have if he baught the item.the difference I'n time is highly noticeable but to be honest the crafting rules are a pain. this let's a player make things while ignoring a tedious mechanic.
Because it destroys the world economy. It's a world view shifting thing. There won't be any crafters a generation or two after this spell comes into being. A crafter needs days or weeks to make masterwork material. Any idiot with an anvil and a hammer can make a basic set of anything, then hand it over to the caster to make it perfect. You could make a weapon using template forge technology (clay mold, pour metal in, get a solid steel sword in hours), then have the adept cast the spell on it to make it perfectly balanced and fix the issues with it being easily breakable. Same with armor. Stitch up bad hide into an armor shape, cast spell, and MW leather armor instead of cheap leather armor.
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hm...monk sorc dragon disciple...that seems like it could be fun.Don't see it as broken, and it opens up some interesting multiclass options. For example, Monk/Sorcerer is now a much better synergy.
- Wisdom bases sorcerers (Multiclassing, Mystic Thurge, etc...)
Fun, but sadly it can't be done. The Wisdom based Sorcerers are restricted to the Wildblooded version of the Celestial Bloodline.
A crafter needs days or weeks to make masterwork material.He also pays 100 gp,not 300,and does not need to be 3-4th level spellcaster.
Problem solved?
A crafter needs days or weeks to make masterwork material.He also pays 100 gp,not 300,and does not need to be 3-4th level spellcaster.
Problem solved?
No, not really. You really don't realize how world breaking (not game breaking) it is for magic to be able to do everything including turning junk into MW?
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huh how is this broken? all he saves is time he pays exactly what he would have if he baught the item.the difference I'n time is highly noticeable but to be honest the crafting rules are a pain. this let's a player make things while ignoring a tedious mechanic.
Because it destroys the world economy. It's a world view shifting thing. There won't be any crafters a generation or two after this spell comes into being. A crafter needs days or weeks to make masterwork material. Any idiot with an anvil and a hammer can make a basic set of anything, then hand it over to the caster to make it perfect. You could make a weapon using template forge technology (clay mold, pour metal in, get a solid steel sword in hours), then have the adept cast the spell on it to make it perfectly balanced and fix the issues with it being easily breakable. Same with armor. Stitch up bad hide into an armor shape, cast spell, and MW leather armor instead of cheap leather armor.
This assumes you've got spellcasters lying around with nothing better to do but be glorified crafters. Saying this is world-breaking is like saying "Why have janitors when every CEO can just clean their own bathroom!"
Fun, but sadly it can't be done. The Wisdom based Sorcerers are restricted to the Wildblooded version of the Celestial Bloodline.hm...monk sorc dragon disciple...that seems like it could be fun.Don't see it as broken, and it opens up some interesting multiclass options. For example, Monk/Sorcerer is now a much better synergy.
- Wisdom bases sorcerers (Multiclassing, Mystic Thurge, etc...)
Crossblooded sorceror says "Hi".
Barbarian 1/Alchemist 1/Synthesist 18. Biped evolutionary form.
Rages for +4 strength. Drinks mutagen for +4 strength. Base 16, +7 for being level 18, +3 from ability score increases, +6 from a belt of giant's strength, +5 inherent from a tome of strength, +16 from being huge, +6 from ability score increases.
16+4+4+7+3+6+5+16+6 = 67 strength.
Rages for +6 constitution. Base 13, +6 from a belt of physical perfection, +5 inherent from a tome of bodily health, +8 from being huge, +2 from improved stat evolution.
13+6+6+4+8+6 = 40 Constitution
Base 12, +6 from a belt of physical perfection, +7 for being level 18, +4 inherent from a tome of quickness in action, -4 from being huge, +2 from improved stat evolution.
12+6+7+4-4+2 = 27 Dexterity.
Int/Wis/Cha.
20 point buy, +10 from 7 str (-4), 7 dex (-4), 8 con (-2) for 30. 15 Int (7), 16 Wisdom (10), 18 Cha (13). +6 headband of mental prowess, +1 ability score increase in Int, +4 ability score increase in Cha.
Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 28.
28 evolution points are spent (4 per stat x 4 for 16, 2 per dex x 1 for 2, 10 for huge) out of 23, but lo, I am a half-elf summoner and have taken 16 levels of favored class for evolution points, giving me 4 more evolution points, and the extra evolution feat three times, giving me 3 more for a total of 30. My other favored class was barbarian, giving me 1 hit point.
My statblock is as follows, when raging and using mutagen.
The Great Destroyer
Male human barbarian 1/internal alchemist 1/synthesist 18
LE Huge synthesism (human, outsider, elf)
Init +8 Senses Perception +6; darkvision 60 ft.
-Defense---------------------------------
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 44 (+26 natural armor, +8 dexterity, +4 shield, +5 deflection, +1 insight, -2 size)
hp (16d8+1d12+1d8-36+1) 50hp + (18d10+270) 355 temporary = 405 total
Fort +34, Ref +25, Will +28
-Offense---------------------------------
Space 15 ft. Reach 15 ft.
Spd 40ft.
Melee 2 claws +43 (1d8+31), bite +43 (2d6+45 19-20/x2)
Defensive Abilities improved evasion
-Statistics------------------------------
Str 67, Dex 27, Con 40, Int 20, Wis 22, Cha 28
Base Atk +14; CMB +44; CMD 61
Feats Defensive Combat Training, Power Attack, Extra Rage, Extra Evolution, Extra Evolution, Extra Evolution, Raging Vitality, 15, 17, Improved Critical: Bite, Bonus: Brew Potion
Skills 18x2 = 36 + 4 + 4 = 44 + 120 = 164 skill ranks or 8 maxed skills; highest possible skill is Climb, +53 (+28 str+20 ranks+3 trained+2 climbing kit). Lowest is Survival, +29. Intimidate maxes at +32, Stealth is at +0 w/ no ranks.
Languages 6 languages + common and elven
Gear +6 belt of physical perfection, +6 headband of mental prowess, (180,000) +5 amulet of natural armor (50,000), +5 ring of deflection (50,000), dusty rose prism ioun stone (5,500), +5 tome of bodily health/quickness in action/strength (375,000 for books), +5 cloak of resistance (25,000), permanency: magic fang CL20th (22,500+1080) = 703,580gp out of 880,000gp WBL
Special Abilities evolutions (check post; 2 points bite attack w/ 1-1/2 strength), fast movement, rage (16r/day), mutagen (10m), bombs (1d6+5; 6/day), breath mastery
For reference, this character has 67 strength. 27's heavy load is 1,040 pounds. For every 10 beyond 27, you multiple 1,040 by 4 to determine the weight this character can carry. Therefore, you multiply by 16 (4 times 4). That lets his character carry 16,640 pounds of equipment. Wait, but he's huge. That means he gets another x4 multiplier on 16,640, so... 66,560 pounds is a heavy load for this guy. He can drag 600,000 pounds if the circumstances are favorable-- which is 300 short tons. According to a DM Screen I have for Mutants and Masterminds, that means his heavy load is a semi truck and his drag and pull is nearing the Statue of Liberty.
I think this is the highest I can get a strength score in this game.
EDIT: The alchemist is the internal alchemist archetype so I can hold my breath for 36 hours or feign death if someone banishes my eidolon.
EDIT 2: Don't know if the +2 natural armor from mutagen stacks with the rest. If so, 54 AC.
A smaller issue is the infinite food issue. :) Kill a cow, skin all the meat off the bones. Cast Restore Corpse on it. It's now covered with rotting meat again. Cut the rotting meat off. Put it in a pile, and cast Purify Food and Water on the rotting meat. It's now good edible meat. Rinse and repeat until you run out of spells. Tomorrow, do the same thing. A single cow can generate, with just one adept of low level, 3-4 cows worth of meat per day for the rest of time. Why bother raising cattle, it's expensive. Just keep a couple of skeletons around and restore corpse/purify as needed.
Well you could beat world hunger, but there are some things that could "spoil" that particular combo.
A.While those two spells allow you to create edible food, it says nothing about the taste and given the way this was created.... well let´s say it wont be tasty.
B. A Cow is a large creature, the spell works only for small or medium sized creatures, so you could only harvest something like a goat or a fat human.
C.You can already use tricks to generate vast amounts of "meat":
-Chain up a Troll and cut of his limbs, repeat once they have grown back
-Get a huge mass of meat like a Tyrannosaurus cut of the tail and use Regenerate or a Ring of Regeneration.
But that doesn´t mean that I do not understand you problem with the spell. I actually see this spell as a cheap way for a necromancer to build his first little undead army from used bones.(It´s easier to collect/gather/buy) the bones without the flesh )
IIRC Paizo published a similar idea in Dragon, about using Polymorph any Object to turn any old corpse into something low hd with a template like turning a dead dragon turtle into a 12 headed hyra (for skeletons).
One thing I think is sort of breaking is the new spells to convert things to masterwork quality.
Crafting is already a broken system, and I didn't particularly care for the idea that a spellcaster could use Fabricate and Spellcraft to make items without understanding how they work. But it's even worse now. Now you can pick up a rusty dull dagger, pay 300gp in reagents, and it's magically a Masterwork dagger, made by a caster with no skill in weapons crafting, or even knowing how to use the weapons at all.
Yeah, not making it into my games at all.
Well I think its as a spell allowing a character to keep using his old non-masterwork family longsword, without having to give out masterwork weapons at level 1.
That said casters "cheat" reality all the time, the never bother to learn how to walk silently - the cast silence. The same applies to hiding, hitting (true strike), lying (Glibness)....
Beeing a caster - especially a wizard - is all about changing the universe to suit your fancy.
However the spell has a problem, the price. A caster could turn a normal weapon into masterwork quicker than any smith, but thats not the real problem. They can do this without a chance of failure, if the smith ruins his blade he just lost a good deal of money.
If I had to "fix" the spell, I would either add a craft check - not a fan since a wizard could use Mending to repair a blade sundered into a hundred parts without a roll - or add something like 25 - 50 GP material component.
Well you could beat world hunger, but there are some things that could "spoil" that particular combo.A.While those two spells allow you to create edible food, it says nothing about the taste and given the way this was created.... well let´s say it wont be tasty.
B. A Cow is a large creature, the spell works only for small or medium sized creatures, so you could only harvest something like a goat or a fat human.
Good catch on size. So, a calf would be a medium. Unlimited veal. I disagree on the 'Tastes bad', it's restoring the flesh of the skeleton, which means rotten veal.
The purify spell says this : This spell makes spoiled, rotten, diseased, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food and water pure and suitable for eating and drinking.
If it would work on road kill (which it seems to work on) then it should work on the restored flesh of a calf.
C.You can already use tricks to generate vast amounts of "meat":
-Chain up a Troll and cut of his limbs, repeat once they have grown back
-Get a huge mass of meat like a Tyrannosaurus cut of the tail and use Regenerate or a Ring of Regeneration.
Both of those solutions have things that the spell combo doesn't.
First, you've got to keep a live T-Rex, which means feeding him daily (negating the effect of cutting off his tail), plus you need a regeneration ring (which is expensive). And, if I remember correctly, regeneration rings don't regrow limbs, so that doesn't work. And you have to hope the daily feeding isn't you. :) Yes, you can get a ring of sustenance for it, but then, you've got a captive t-rex that needs 2 hours of sleep a day, trying to get loose. :)
Second, with the troll, you've got the same problem as the T-Rex (need to feed it, have to keep it alive, and it's dangerous). :)
But that doesn´t mean that I do not understand you problem with the spell. I actually see this spell as a cheap way for a necromancer to build his first little undead army from used bones.(It´s easier to collect/gather/buy) the bones without the flesh )IIRC Paizo published a similar idea in Dragon, about using Polymorph any Object to turn any old corpse into something low hd with a template like turning a dead dragon turtle into a 12 headed hyra (for skeletons).
Oh no, I absolutely agree that was the intent. :) They just didn't quite think out all the ramifications. :)
No, not really. You really don't realize how world breaking (not game breaking) it is for magic to be able to do everything including turning junk into MW?
A crafter needs days or weeks to make masterwork material.He also pays 100 gp,not 300,and does not need to be 3-4th level spellcaster.
Problem solved?
Thay are not turning junk into MW.
They are casting 2nd-lv spell AND spending 3-times as much money as normal 1-lv expert.You can easily go and buy that MW from said expert and save a spell slot.
Nevertheless, it goes in the opposite way of fixing crafting. MDT is right about it :(
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Barbarian 1/Alchemist 1/Synthesist 18. Biped evolutionary form.
Rages for +4 strength. Drinks mutagen for +4 strength. Base 16, +7 for being level 18, +3 from ability score increases, +6 from a belt of giant's strength, +5 inherent from a tome of strength, +16 from being huge, +6 from ability score increases.
16+4+4+7+3+6+5+16+6 = 67 strength.
Rages for +6 constitution. Base 13, +6 from a belt of physical perfection, +5 inherent from a tome of bodily health, +8 from being huge, +2 from improved stat evolution.
13+6+6+4+8+6 = 40 Constitution
Base 12, +6 from a belt of physical perfection, +7 for being level 18, +4 inherent from a tome of quickness in action, -4 from being huge, +2 from improved stat evolution.
12+6+7+4-4+2 = 27 Dexterity.
Int/Wis/Cha.
20 point buy, +10 from 7 str (-4), 7 dex (-4), 8 con (-2) for 30. 15 Int (7), 16 Wisdom (10), 18 Cha (13). +6 headband of mental prowess, +1 ability score increase in Int, +4 ability score increase in Cha.
Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 28.
28 evolution points are spent (4 per stat x 4 for 16, 2 per dex x 1 for 2, 10 for huge) out of 23, but lo, I am a half-elf summoner and have taken 16 levels of favored class for evolution points, giving me 4 more evolution points, and the extra evolution feat three times, giving me 3 more for a total of 30. My other favored class was barbarian, giving me 1 hit point.
My statblock is as follows, when raging and using mutagen.
The Great Destroyer
Male human barbarian 1/internal alchemist 1/synthesist 18
LE Huge synthesism (human, outsider, elf)
Init +8 Senses Perception +6; darkvision 60 ft.
-Defense---------------------------------
AC 52, touch 22, flat-footed 44 (+26 natural armor, +8 dexterity, +4 shield, +5 deflection, +1 insight, -2 size)
hp (16d8+1d12+1d8-36+1) 50hp + (18d10+270) 355 temporary = 405 total
Fort +34, Ref +25, Will +28
-Offense---------------------------------
Space 15 ft. Reach 15 ft.
Spd...
... Wow... I am feeling more and more justified in sticking to APG + Core for my games, this threads very interesting.
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... Wow... I am feeling more and more justified in sticking to APG + Core for my games, this threads very interesting.Seems like you haven't seen many level 20 statblocks :)
I've seen plenty. But from what i'm reading in various threads, there does seem to be some power creep... I'll be happy to hear opinions to the contrary.
I've seen plenty. But from what i'm reading in various threads, there does seem to be some power creep... I'll be happy to hear opinions to the contrary.... Wow... I am feeling more and more justified in sticking to APG + Core for my games, this threads very interesting.Seems like you haven't seen many level 20 statblocks :)
Any time you add options, there will end up being some cheesy ways of min/maxing the system. They could just add archetypes and rogue powers and rage powers and spells to the core classes and someone would find some cheese somewhere (and yes, the above is very cheesy).
That's what GM's are for, to ask how the illiterate barbarian managed to get a degree in alchemy then toss it to the side and make friends with an extra world entitity.
I find the title of this thread to be unhelpful. If you have an honest question, concern, or complaint about something then bring it up. Yes, a new book is out that is 256 pages long. Yes it has new stuff and some groups will like it and some will not. Most folks will take what they want for their game and leave, or house rule, the rest.
There are maybe three or four things in the book that I think could use a bit of errata and they will be in our home game. But overall the book has some excellent new features (Magus, Archetypes, Feat, & Spells), some expansions on some concepts that were there before (constructs, new curses/magic mishaps, spell creation), and some flat out experimental stuff like words of power.
But I would like to link THIS as words to live by for any gamer.
I think maybe I have been reading the forums too much and breaking my personal rule to never read a post after about the 20th person. It makes me cranky. :)
I've seen plenty. But from what i'm reading in various threads, there does seem to be some power creep... I'll be happy to hear opinions to the contrary.... Wow... I am feeling more and more justified in sticking to APG + Core for my games, this threads very interesting.Seems like you haven't seen many level 20 statblocks :)Any time you add options, there will end up being some cheesy ways of min/maxing the system. They could just add archetypes and rogue powers and rage powers and spells to the core classes and someone would find some cheese somewhere (and yes, the above is very cheesy).
That's what GM's are for, to ask how the illiterate barbarian managed to get a degree in alchemy then toss it to the side and make friends with an extra world entitity.
He was never illiterate to begin with, but rather a noble who happened to have a really bad temper. His father had experimented with alchemy, and in order to calm down his temper, which sometimes made him so angry that he was extremely tired afterwards, he started dabbling with different chemicals and such. One of the potions he made (mistakenly!) caused him to have a hallucination, where he was talking to some giant creature with the head of a hyena...yet it was telling him it had always been there, awaiting his call. He brushed it off at first, but this vision kept coming back to him. One day, he decided to focus on seeing if the vision was more real than he had thought...
Really, making up stories is what RPGs are about. If you don't want something in a game, just say so....don't ever ask WHY as you'll get an answer and then look way more douchey when you ban it....everyone will know you just got pwnt by the story the player made up.
He was never illiterate to begin with, but rather a noble who happened to have a really bad temper. His father had experimented with alchemy, and in order to calm down his temper, which sometimes made him so angry that he was extremely tired afterwards, he started dabbling with different chemicals and such. One of the potions he made (mistakenly!) caused him to have a hallucination, where he was talking to some giant creature with the head of a hyena...yet it was telling him it had always been there, awaiting his call. He brushed it off at first, but this vision kept coming back to him. One day, he decided to focus on seeing if the vision was more real than he had thought...Really, making up stories is what RPGs are about. If you don't want something in a game, just say so....don't ever ask WHY as you'll get an answer and then look way more douchey when you ban it....everyone will know you just got pwnt by the story the player made up.
When your background story sounds like the plot of a soap opera, there's an issue with the design of the character concept. Usually when stories get so convoluted they require a couple of million in one shots to pull off, you've got the situation of someone trying desperately to come up with some story to explain their giant pile of limburgher.
I don't know how this could possibly be meaningful before a variety of people have played various options in actual play sessions over a period of time. Even then, to get something meaningful out of it, I would think you would need to know the type of campaign it is, the type of mindset of the player involved (min/maxer, etc, etc), how many sessions played, and the lvl of the character.
All of the angsty "armchair" threads are not helpful. I think actual play data broken down into the information categories above could be helpful for GMs, and players.
Here's hoping :)
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I've seen plenty. But from what i'm reading in various threads, there does seem to be some power creep... I'll be happy to hear opinions to the contrary.... Wow... I am feeling more and more justified in sticking to APG + Core for my games, this threads very interesting.Seems like you haven't seen many level 20 statblocks :)
Well and that is the intent of this thread. To root out, and possibly stop power creep.
So far I've actually be pleasantly surprised most of the griping in other threads is coming from Paizo not creating over powered stuff (see cloistered cleric and Vow of Poverty)
But we all know the creep sneaks in through the details.
The above block doesn't move me much when you consider it loses the capstone from either class and is still behind in BAB
Nevermind. Not gonna start a snarkfest : )
You know, everyone's complaining about the Restore Corpse/Purify Food and Drink thing but it only works on a Medium or smaller creature. A Cleric a couple of levels higher casting create food and water is capable of magically feeding far more people.
You know, everyone's complaining about the Restore Corpse/Purify Food and Drink thing but it only works on a Medium or smaller creature. A Cleric a couple of levels higher casting create food and water is capable of magically feeding far more people.
I've only seen one post complain about it.
And my group just ignores food (and going to the bathroom), so it doesn't matter for me. I'm guessing a fair number of groups do that too.
When your background story sounds like the plot of a soap opera, there's an issue with the design of the character concept. Usually when stories get so convoluted they require a couple of million in one shots to pull off, you've got the situation of someone trying desperately to come up with some story to explain their giant pile of limburgher.
We're playing a fantasy game in a make-believe land. I don't see how any backstory has inherent quality over another. You're strawman-ing all over the place here.
Also, characters can be of any class the player wishes. The class abilties of a character does not have to fit the story of that character. It is just generally assumed that they would. Nothing within the rules restricts Barbarians to be of a savage, uncivilized people, nor a Wizard to be a learned man of genteel descent; the former could be a noble with a terrible temper, and the latter a brilliant savant from a small farming town, crippled with a club foot at birth.
The restore corpse/purify food combination is kind of funny (gave me a good chuckle), but people getting upset over it is more than a little funny. That's just hilarious.
I've seen plenty. But from what i'm reading in various threads, there does seem to be some power creep... I'll be happy to hear opinions to the contrary.... Wow... I am feeling more and more justified in sticking to APG + Core for my games, this threads very interesting.Seems like you haven't seen many level 20 statblocks :)Any time you add options, there will end up being some cheesy ways of min/maxing the system. They could just add archetypes and rogue powers and rage powers and spells to the core classes and someone would find some cheese somewhere (and yes, the above is very cheesy).
That's what GM's are for, to ask how the illiterate barbarian managed to get a degree in alchemy then toss it to the side and make friends with an extra world entitity.
EDIT: "It sounds like a soap opera"... at least this was fun to write.
When your background story sounds like the plot of a soap opera, there's an issue with the design of the character concept. Usually when stories get so convoluted they require a couple of million in one shots to pull off, you've got the situation of someone trying desperately to come up with some story to explain their giant pile of limburgher.We're playing a fantasy game in a make-believe land. I don't see how any backstory has inherent quality over another. You're strawman-ing all over the place here.
Also, characters can be of any class the player wishes. The class abilties of a character does not have to fit the story of that character. It is just generally assumed that they would. Nothing within the rules restricts Barbarians to be of a savage, uncivilized people, nor a Wizard to be a learned man of genteel descent; the former could be a noble with a terrible temper, and the latter a brilliant savant from a small farming town, crippled with a club foot at birth.
I agree with everything you've said, save the last bit. A wizard does preclude a certain sort of backstory. A wizard could not be a savant from a small farming town, unless said character was latter apprenticed and learned wizardry or some such. As written, that could easily be an oracle (complete with the club foot!).
he was an alchemist that created steriods (mutagen) and he got roid rage (barbarian rage) not even all that hard. add whatever for the other class.
The restore corpse/purify food combination is kind of funny (gave me a good chuckle), but people getting upset over it is more than a little funny. That's just hilarious.
never getting to meet random farmers again would piss me off too (aka you only need one adept to feed a village, forget farmers.
never getting to meet random farmers again would piss me off too (aka you only need one adept to feed a village, forget farmers.
Assuming spellcasters are all that common and that this spell is even available to them (or anyone else).
You don't have to use all the material that's printed. You can pick and choose, ya know?
. A wizard does preclude a certain sort of backstory. A wizard could not be a savant from a small farming town, unless said character was latter apprenticed and learned wizardry or some such. As written, that could easily be an oracle (complete with the club foot!).
Yes and no. If the character were playing the 'classic flavor' wizard, you are right; they need a certain level of classic apprenticeship and education. However, if you were playing a re-fluffed wizard, where they don't use a spellbook, but tattoos, and no spells but "ink-marks", it could work. (The caveat being that these features function mechanically identical to the classical wizard)
. A wizard does preclude a certain sort of backstory. A wizard could not be a savant from a small farming town, unless said character was latter apprenticed and learned wizardry or some such. As written, that could easily be an oracle (complete with the club foot!).Yes and no. If the character were playing the 'classic flavor' wizard, you are right; they need a certain level of classic apprenticeship and education. However, if you were playing a re-fluffed wizard, where they don't use a spellbook, but tattoos, and no spells but "ink-marks", it could work. (The caveat being that these features function mechanically identical to the classical wizard)
A wizard uses a spellbook to prepare spellcasting notations. A tattoo would work towards this end, too (as an alternative spellbook). But the moment you "re-fluff" the wizard, it's no longer a wizard. You'd be better off making a sorcerer if you wanted to play a savant-type. Though, of course, we are free to play the game however we wish -- so a character using the wizard class mechanics is fine, it's just not a wizard XD
Edit: A clear distinction should be made between a class like wizard and barbarian. The former might be recognized publicly as a "wizard," a sort of title they are known for. The later, however, would not hold such a title. A barbarian is a barbarian only in terms of the game mechanics. They aren't necessarily a "barbarian" at all, nor would they be recognized as a member of the barbarian class (until perhaps they fly into unbridled rage).
A wizard uses a spellbook to prepare spellcasting notations. A tattoo would work towards this end, too (as an alternative spellbook). But the moment you "re-fluff" the wizard, it's no longer a wizard. You'd be better off making a sorcerer if you wanted to play a savant-type. Though, of course, we are free to play the game however we wish -- so a character using the wizard class mechanics is fine, it's just not a wizard XD
EXACTLY! :D
This is exactly what I mean; the mechanics are sound, but the fluff and description of each class is mutable. Any combination of classes and abilities from them (as long as rules-legal) is kosher for any character story, because the mechanics are not contingent on how they are described.
The restore corpse/purify food combination is kind of funny (gave me a good chuckle), but people getting upset over it is more than a little funny. That's just hilarious.
I didn't say I was upset about it (read my original post), I said I thought it was an unintended consequence, but minor. It's still wonky, but I never said it was game breaking or anything.
Build an entire party with Antagonize. Use it tactically. You don't even have to try for it to shred anything that can understand words.
I dunno if it breaks anything, and I posted this a second ago in another thread, but the Alchemist can now enter Arcane Trickster at 5. I haven't put the time in to see how their spell list matches with this, but it's now wayyyy less painful in the early levels to get into AT if that's what you're looking for.
Hm? Some of the point buy on that Synthesist build looks off. Also, where does that +26 Nat. Armor come from?
Also, when Ninja comes out, I have a feeling we'll be able to make some pretty crazy things happen with the Eldritch Heritage tree...Since ninja already has Cha-based class features and all that.
Hm? Some of the point buy on that Synthesist build looks off. Also, where does that +26 Nat. Armor come from?
"20 point buy, +10 from 7 str (-4), 7 dex (-4), 8 con (-2) for 30. 15 Int (7), 16 Wisdom (10), 17+2=19 Cha (13). +6 headband of mental prowess, +1 ability score increase in Int, +4 ability score increase in Cha."
20+4+4+2 = 30, 30-7-10-13 = 0.
20 point buy, but I did miss that I changed the natural 18 (17 points) to 17 with the racial +2. So, his Cha should be one higher in the stat block.
+26 is +16 from being a 20th level summoner-- he's not, should be +14. +5 from amulet of natural armor, and +5 from being huge. So his AC should be 2 less.
