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"You want to play a monk in any European-based fantasy setting, we'll give you an Oracle and outfit you with a brown robe, a holy book, and have you take one of the Vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds." --- quoting my DM
I tend to agree with him on this subject, even with the varied cultures of Golarion. Your kungfu master has no place in our game.
But I digress, my popcorn is ready and I would much rather watch this pointless thread drag on. Seriously, do people think their e-peen will increase in size if the make a purposely volatile thread that generates over 75 posts?
Monks are a perfectly fine class to play. They contribute, they help in a pinch, they soak spells and abilities. Sure, they don't have the highest DPR - but neither does the rogue. And a monk beats a rogue in damage output easily.
And the qinggong monk seals the deal for the monk. Getting "free" natural armor enhancement frees up some space for the much contested amulet slot and easily cements the monk as the contender for highest AC at mid-levels.
In Navior's Serpent Skull pbp I play a monk (level 3) that tanked (unaided from other allies) against 4 cannibals, a monkey, a giant spider and a boss-level witch (all at the same time) - stunned the witch successfully 3 consecutive times to kill her in the end and still have 3 hp. Fight still raging, hopefully Mahjik can get some healing soon. :)
"You want to play a monk in any European-based fantasy setting, we'll give you an Oracle and outfit you with a brown robe, a holy book, and have you take one of the Vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds." --- quoting my DM
I tend to agree with him on this subject, even with the varied cultures of Golarion. Your kungfu master has no place in our game.
But I digress, my popcorn is ready and I would much rather watch this pointless thread drag on. Seriously, do people think their e-peen will increase in size if the make a purposely volatile thread that generates over 75 posts?
Your world has no martial artist or is it that only western things exist meaning eastern martial artist are not availible?
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Your world has no martial artist or is it that only western things exist meaning eastern martial artist are not availible?"You want to play a monk in any European-based fantasy setting, we'll give you an Oracle and outfit you with a brown robe, a holy book, and have you take one of the Vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds." --- quoting my DM
I tend to agree with him on this subject, even with the varied cultures of Golarion. Your kungfu master has no place in our game.
But I digress, my popcorn is ready and I would much rather watch this pointless thread drag on. Seriously, do people think their e-peen will increase in size if the make a purposely volatile thread that generates over 75 posts?
Eastern martial artists are unavailable (the monk class is banned).
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So no Tian Xia in your Golarion?Eastern martial artists are unavailable (the monk class is banned).Your world has no martial artist or is it that only western things exist meaning eastern martial artist are not availible?"You want to play a monk in any European-based fantasy setting, we'll give you an Oracle and outfit you with a brown robe, a holy book, and have you take one of the Vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds." --- quoting my DM
I tend to agree with him on this subject, even with the varied cultures of Golarion. Your kungfu master has no place in our game.
But I digress, my popcorn is ready and I would much rather watch this pointless thread drag on. Seriously, do people think their e-peen will increase in size if the make a purposely volatile thread that generates over 75 posts?
Correct.
Eastern martial artists are unavailable (the monk class is banned).Your world has no martial artist or is it that only western things exist meaning eastern martial artist are not availible?"You want to play a monk in any European-based fantasy setting, we'll give you an Oracle and outfit you with a brown robe, a holy book, and have you take one of the Vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds." --- quoting my DM
I tend to agree with him on this subject, even with the varied cultures of Golarion. Your kungfu master has no place in our game.
But I digress, my popcorn is ready and I would much rather watch this pointless thread drag on. Seriously, do people think their e-peen will increase in size if the make a purposely volatile thread that generates over 75 posts?
Oh noes my Greek pankration artist won't be allowed in your games, what about my zen archer representing a Scottish caber-tosser?
;)
Eastern martial artists are unavailable (the monk class is banned).Your world has no martial artist or is it that only western things exist meaning eastern martial artist are not availible?"You want to play a monk in any European-based fantasy setting, we'll give you an Oracle and outfit you with a brown robe, a holy book, and have you take one of the Vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds." --- quoting my DM
I tend to agree with him on this subject, even with the varied cultures of Golarion. Your kungfu master has no place in our game.
But I digress, my popcorn is ready and I would much rather watch this pointless thread drag on. Seriously, do people think their e-peen will increase in size if the make a purposely volatile thread that generates over 75 posts?
Oh noes my Greek pankration artist won't be allowed in your games, what about my zen archer representing a Scottish caber-tosser?
;)
Now the caber tosser is a particularly excellent candidate for juju zombie status. Just give the word ... and start hanging out with goblyns, those chaps toss cabers in true style.
Never thougt the monk fitted, but a guy in our group plays them 50% of the time. Both his PFS monk and his SeSk monk are highly effective.
Since 3e never thought of them as weak, and with some strong options in PF they are highly capable
Str not dex is the way to go, IMOO
Next Project: how to make a Charisma monk work. . .
An archetype that would replace the Monk's flurry of blows with the ability to make better standard action attacks would be great. Give him full BAB when making a single attack in a round and his Wisdom modifier to damage rolls. Then give him the Vital Strike feat chain for free when he meets the prerequisites.
It wouldn't be perfect, especially not in terms of damage output, but it would be more in line with the rest of his abilities, namely his speed and mobility.
I suggest a feat called "Tony Jaa". No need for benefits, you just win.
you know actually vital strike isnt a bad idea for a monk 2d10 beocmes 4d10 then 6d10 then 8d10 i could roll with that the to hit bonus still sucks though hmm weapon focus charge bonus and you still a lil short. wisdom to damage isn't a bad idea replace str maybe. i think the hitting is the thing really. one hits you could go boom 8d10+4 19-20 x2 and attempt to paralyze stun w/e then one the round their stunned make with the flurry of death. hmm kind of why i liked the flying kick feat in complete warrior adding a d12 at end of a charge shame it didn't scale well.
I think thats the only where the monk suffers is their to hit bonus
you know actually vital strike isnt a bad idea for a monk 2d10 beocmes 4d10 then 6d10 then 8d10 i could roll with that the to hit bonus still sucks though hmm weapon focus charge bonus and you still a lil short. wisdom to damage isn't a bad idea replace str maybe. i think the hitting is the thing really. one hits you could go boom 8d10+4 19-20 x2 and attempt to paralyze stun w/e then one the round their stunned make with the flurry of death. hmm kind of why i liked the flying kick feat in complete warrior adding a d12 at end of a charge shame it didn't scale well.
I think thats the only where the monk suffers is their to hit bonus
pretty much the reason rogues and monks are on the bottom of the power list, they fixed the monk like they fix everything, give it magic. Rogues will one day be given some sort of magic to and people will be just as happy as they are with the quigong monk. A little annoying but it does seem the only way to power up a 3/4 BAB class, once the rogue is "fixed" we wont have any non-magical ones left.
I figure circumstantial hit bonuses would be a better fix.
well really i think the monk is meant to be a trick fighter for the most part FIRST i stun you then your alot easier to hit and i get a ton of hits on you kind of thing. or i Trip you and the aoo with single hits for good damage i think there main suffering is aginst big creatures with high armor type ac,s sure you can trip,disarm,grapple that fighter but aginsts that red dragon good luck. on the plus side youll avoid that breath weapon and spells for the most part. they make a decent ANTI-caster. god help a mage if a monk comes at you cause hell be to you before you know it stun you and wail on your arse (and you will fail that fort save)
oh right BAB requirement damn yeah maybe they should just go ahead and let em be +20 at 20 >.>
But wait! They get Cockatrice Strike! <,<; *ducks and runs*
I couldn't resist. Still, they favor versatility and movement, and managing that on a standard board is daunting for the GM that focuses on the bare elements.
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Again with the class based around being a living weapon not having full BAB.
I love monks. Or at least the idea. But damn if they haven't been made the hardest melee class to play over the years. I don't believe Paizo dislikes the monk, but they're saddled with a lot of the baggage the monk came with from 3.x. It's going to take work to cut away. The Qinggong monk is a step in the right direction, I think.
VERY much looking forward to Ultimate Combat though, since it sounds like the monk love is getting focused there. Really hope there's some further support for Qinggong monks as well.
But wait! They get Cockatrice Strike! <,<; *ducks and runs*
I couldn't resist. Still, they favor versatility and movement, and managing that on a standard board is daunting for the GM that focuses on the bare elements.
Ah, the trinity of monk misery is complete: UM VoP, True Sacrifice, Cockatrice Strike. :(
Also makes me sad how frequently the topic of "monks don't belong in a fantasy RPG" or "Monks are banned in my games" comes up.
Eastern martial artists are unavailable (the monk class is banned).Your world has no martial artist or is it that only western things exist meaning eastern martial artist are not availible?"You want to play a monk in any European-based fantasy setting, we'll give you an Oracle and outfit you with a brown robe, a holy book, and have you take one of the Vows from the Book of Exalted Deeds." --- quoting my DM
I tend to agree with him on this subject, even with the varied cultures of Golarion. Your kungfu master has no place in our game.
But I digress, my popcorn is ready and I would much rather watch this pointless thread drag on. Seriously, do people think their e-peen will increase in size if the make a purposely volatile thread that generates over 75 posts?
Oh noes my Greek pankration artist won't be allowed in your games, what about my zen archer representing a Scottish caber-tosser?
;)
wait wait tell me how you do a zen arching caber tosser? That's redonkulous... never would have thought of it?
Telephone pole tossing monks?
I dont think fighters (which tend to have higher str) should be better at combat maneuvers than the monk. Monk should be combat maneuver king.
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I dont think fighters (which tend to have higher str) should be better at combat maneuvers than the monk. Monk should be combat maneuver king.
Yet this is clearly not the case. The (base) monk never gets access to Greater Trip(/Disarm/Grapple) feats via bonus feats which means hey have to take Combat Expertise first which would imply they had 13+ int. Which would make them a bad monk.
Wanting things to be what they are not will only lead to an unsatisfied player. At least according to the teachings of Iori.
As to the speed bonus not synthesizing with flurry. I disagree. You can often use the speed bonuses to get in the correct position to flurry next round and still have a standard action left to start a grapple or trip your opponent or whatever your preferred combat maneuver is.
Or, in the case of a Zen Archer, you can use your crazy monk speed to GTFO before opening up with a ranged attack flurry next round. Once you're clear of their charge range, you can easily pace most critters and paste them with arrows till they drop. This is especially true at later levels where the speed disparity becomes more and more blatant.Mob kiting, now for monks!
You can't ranged flurry if you moved
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Warrior Priest is one that I nominate for bad
--- the feat is ok .... if it were a trait.
Isn't to far from Spirits in the Stone, Veteran of Battle, Warrior of Old, Veteran of Battle, or Reactionary. And those are not feats.
I saw the "Warrior Priest" name and so wanted that to be a feat that allowed divine power holders to be able to use powers on their self as a free action. But no, it's a trait ( and not the best of traits) taking up a feat slot. I wouldn't mind it so much if the other feats, Quick Channel, Eldritch Heritage, Versatile Channeler were so cool and useable.
Not to hate on the Qinggong monks, but I feel their abilities are generally too weak and cost too much ki. While in some cases technically an upgrade, it's an incredibly minute one. Of all the classes to be conservative with...
Paizo, if you are reading this, let me make this clear - you will probably never have to worry about the monk becoming "too powerful." You don't have to hold back on options and improvements.
OK, recipe for charisma monk. . .
Stats using 20 point buy would like. . .
16 (5) (+2 half-elf)
14 (5)
12 (2)
10
14 (5)
13 (3) (keep buffing Charisma through level 16)
Half-elf - Skill Focus: Knowledge (history)
1 - ?
3 - Eldritch Heritage (destined with the karmic bloodline -> fate's retribution)
5 - ?
7 - ?
9 - ?
11 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (destined -> it was meant to be)
13 - ?
15 - ?
17 - Greater Eldritch Heritage (destined -> within reach)
19 - ?
Kind of lame, but it's a playable character. Haven't figured out exactly what I want to do with feats. . .
Not to hate on the Qinggong monks, but I feel their abilities are generally too weak and cost too much ki. While in some cases technically an upgrade, it's an incredibly minute one. Of all the classes to be conservative with...
Paizo, if you are reading this, let me make this clear - you will probably never have to worry about the monk becoming "too powerful." You don't have to hold back on options and improvements.
I don't know that restoration without cost is nice and I really like dragon's breath too... a bunch of stuff I've wanted is there so I don't think it is horrible.
Warrior Priest is one that I nominate for bad
--- the feat is ok .... if it were a trait.
Consider that it stacks with combat casting and uncanny concentration as well as focused mind.
With all those you are looking at caster level +10+casting stat for your concentration checks.
Which means you are much more likely to succeed on casting while grappled.
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Because the Crunch doesn't match the Fluff.
A monk built on Dex/Wis is in line with the Fluff but is barely adequate crunch wise. A Str based monk is very effective but just feels wrong.
And the best monks are Dwarves -- Does not compute.
Those are my opinions, and I am sticking by them.
Ah, my sadly delusional benighted amphibian. How you do stick to the sinking ship that is your world view. ;)
Monks are finesse fighters, they dont wade in, they strike precsion and delibrateness. One of the best things about them is in the fluff. Consider the Dwarf Monk: Hard headed, two fisted. Think of a UFC fighter. Consider the Human Monk, whether Tianese or Garundi; different cultures with a similar goal: Bare handed butt whuppery with style. I think Monks have great leeway in thier execution when it comes down to concept and what the player wants done with them. Whether a fast and agile fighter (Tifa from FF) or the husky,hardy and stout parson whos ability to put his foes down witha minimum of effort (Friar Tuck).
Monks are just as good and viable as Bards. *Stares at Sir Frog*
Oh, I almost forgot about the Charisma monk.
I'm torn. . . should my next character be a blaster caster or a charisma monk. . . choices choices. . .
Next Project: how to make a Charisma monk work. . .
Multiclassing with sorcerer and picking the multiclass feat from Complete adventurer (I think), the caster level trait and begging your DM to allow the wraithstrike spell.
Humbly,
Yawar
Oh, I almost forgot about the Charisma monk.This has been mentioned a few times and quick Google search got me nowhere. What is this? Is there a class archetype or feature somewhere or something? A feat?
No, I'm just trying to make something out of nothing. There's very little support for a viable monk build using only Charisma. The sorcerer example above is a sorcerer with a level or two in monk. I'm talking about a full monk build using Charisma as an important stat. Because if you're going to go MAD on a class, you might as well go INSANE.
Ah, my sadly delusional benighted amphibian. How you do stick to the sinking ship that is your world view. ;)Monks are finesse fighters, they dont wade in, they strike precsion and delibrateness. One of the best things about them is in the fluff. Consider the Dwarf Monk: Hard headed, two fisted. Think of a UFC fighter. Consider the Human Monk, whether Tianese or Garundi; different cultures with a similar goal: Bare handed butt whuppery with style. I think Monks have great leeway in thier execution when it comes down to concept and what the player wants done with them. Whether a fast and agile fighter (Tifa from FF) or the husky,hardy and stout parson whos ability to put his foes down witha minimum of effort (Friar Tuck).
Monks are just as good and viable as Bards. *Stares at Sir Frog*
I honestly can't tell if you are kidding or not.
You open a door in a dungeon. Ten feet away from you, you see a wizard. He looks at you and begins to cast, confident that the big hulking ogre in the doorway will block your path. Some sort of weird magical glow surrounds the wizard - some sort of protection magic.
The Dex built Monk rolls initiatiative and looks over at the party Rogue, suggesting that they tumble past the Ogre and take care of the Wizard before he gets his spell off. The Rogue looks suspiciously at the glow around the Wizard, checks his defenses against magic, looks at the Ogre who could simply turn around and smack him and decides his odds don't look too good. He shakes his head, "no".
The monk looks at the rest of his party. They won't be acting for quite awhile - plenty of time for the evil Wizard to get his spell off. The party Wizard, with low Perception and no Wis score, in the back of the party, isn't even aware the combat has started. The Monk sighs.
Then he tumbles over the Ogre and faces the Wizard. The Wizard's face begins to turn toward's him when a smile spreads across the Monk's face. He grabs the Wizard's shirt and pulls it up and over the Wizard's head. Then, he grabs the Wizard's pants and gives the poor nerd a wedgie that will take him back to his days in Mage school. The Wizard is effectively entangled and, with the Monk's Greater Dirty Trick feat, will be entangled for awhile. His spell fizzled out when it hit the Monk's spell resistance - or maybe it was the saving throw. The monk sits down, pulls out some tobacco and relaxes, waiting for the fighter to finish drawing his sword.
And then the Ogre squashed the living crap out of the monk because he dumped int and sat down to have a smoke. The wizard struggles out of his predicament and the battle goes on as normal.
Later on the rogue will shake his head at the monks funeral after having pickpocketed the monks grandmother.
Had it been a "real" fight,
Ooohhh so it's a "pretend" pretend battle. My mistake. :P
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A dexterity/wisdom monk is totally viable. Sure, he needs a few feats more than a strength bases monk, but he also gets better saves and AC. But a human monk is able to get dexterity on unarmed strike damage by level 3 and so is a tengu monk. And since tengus also gain a bonus on dexterity and wisdom, that makes them pretty awesome monks.