I keep hearing things like "Paizo doesn't like monks" and the like.
What gives. Monks are sweet, and probably the most common melee class I play.
I miss some of the thief like abilities from 1e, like open locks, but whatever.
Why does everyone think monks are weak? They get great saves, true I could leave some of their class abilities on the drawing table.. but I don't think they get gimped.
Some of the monk archetypes get rid of the awful straight monk abilities and replace them with something else at least.
True the monk hasn't gotten any power bumps, but does he need it?
We doing this? Really? You really going there? :P
I for one have my popcorn ready.
We doing this? Really? You really going there? :P
I'll zombify the loser. :P
IMO, a lot of people underestimate the monk's effectiveness. His ability to avoid damage with a decent AC and saves gets overshadowed by his lower damage output. Depending on how you play, this damage difference can be significant or irrelevant. They also tend to have slightly lower to hit values, being forced into TWF. Finally, many of their abilities lack synergy, getting movement speed bonuses but then being forced to full attack for a flurry.
Overall I have no problem with Monks. They aren't really my style, but I find them to be highly effective, especially as enemy NPCs.
We doing this? Really? You really going there? :PI'll zombify the loser. :P
Again?
IMO, a lot of people underestimate the monk's effectiveness. His ability to avoid damage with a decent AC and saves gets overshadowed by his lower damage output. Depending on how you play, this damage difference can be significant or irrelevant. They also tend to have slightly lower to hit values, being forced into TWF. Finally, many of their abilities lack synergy, getting movement speed bonuses but then being forced to full attack for a flurry.
Overall I have no problem with Monks. They aren't really my style, but I find them to be highly effective, especially as enemy NPCs.
Yea synergy is lacking. But this isn't a PAIZO thing. That's been a monk thing.
Weird goofy powers that are usually meaningless. But if you take them all away, I still don't think the monk is weak. (since he doesn't lose anything by losing useless powers)
If anything I dislike having so many powers you forget you have them the one time in an entire campaign it would be useful.
I 'usually' solve the movement/flurry thing by not flurrying. I'll take polearm as a feat, combat expertise and build the monk in that way. So if they think they can close on the polearm fighter, they are in for a nasty surprise, but otherwise I move alot and often and just kick stuff.
I generally just have the polearms for AoOs and take feats that increase the chance of me getting them to make up for a lack of using flurry regularly.
If there is a spell caster or archer or both, I usually end up with more attacks in a fight than had I just tried to flurry.
I really don't think pathfinder did anything bad with the monk.
Again?We doing this? Really? You really going there? :PI'll zombify the loser. :P
Only if you lose. ^_^
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I keep hearing things like "Paizo doesn't like monks" and the like.
What gives. Monks are sweet, and probably the most common melee class I play.
I miss some of the thief like abilities from 1e, like open locks, but whatever.
Why does everyone think monks are weak? They get great saves, true I could leave some of their class abilities on the drawing table.. but I don't think they get gimped.
Some of the monk archetypes get rid of the awful straight monk abilities and replace them with something else at least.
True the monk hasn't gotten any power bumps, but does he need it?
Because the Crunch doesn't match the Fluff.
A monk built on Dex/Wis is in line with the Fluff but is barely adequate crunch wise. A Str based monk is very effective but just feels wrong.
And the best monks are Dwarves -- Does not compute.
Those are my opinions, and I am sticking by them.
I can never find the right place for monk. They aren't front line fighters. They aren't skill monkeys. They shouldn't be hiding in the back. I've never really figured out how to play a monk, I suppose that's why I just never bother. Or otherwise look them over.
We doing this? Really? You really going there? :P
I think this one comes up more than the alignment threads. I am surprised it keeps spawning. At least the alignment threads can differ by actuall circumstance. I do have popcorn for this though.
I can never find the right place for monk. They aren't front line fighters. They aren't skill monkeys. They shouldn't be hiding in the back. I've never really figured out how to play a monk, I suppose that's why I just never bother. Or otherwise look them over.
They don't really have a place, and it takes a certain level of games-fu to run them well. That is my 2 cents for this post.
I can never find the right place for monk. They aren't front line fighters. They aren't skill monkeys. They shouldn't be hiding in the back. I've never really figured out how to play a monk, I suppose that's why I just never bother. Or otherwise look them over.They don't really have a place, and it takes a certain level of games-fu to run them well. That is my 2 cents for this post.
I think thats what I always liked about the monk. Growing up playing the game, I was always last to be asked to join a group (being the youngest) there always seemed to be a fighter a wizard and a thief already. So I was either the 4th (cleric by default) or If there were 4 already I got to play a monk, so I wouldn't step on anyones toes.
Seemed like I always spent the first 3 levels running alot and using my crossbow and after that it was pretty good.
Takes too long to get quivering palm, IMO.
Why would you need a STR based monk? Weapon finesse and the added dice to damage make up for lack of str.... no?
You play a monk? I hope you don't drive a car. . .
(:
Why would you need a STR based monk? Weapon finesse and the added dice to damage make up for lack of str.... no?I can never find the right place for monk. They aren't front line fighters. They aren't skill monkeys. They shouldn't be hiding in the back. I've never really figured out how to play a monk, I suppose that's why I just never bother. Or otherwise look them over.They don't really have a place, and it takes a certain level of games-fu to run them well. That is my 2 cents for this post.
Nope. They don't make up for the lack of strength since a strength based monk can roll the same number of dice and add his strength also. If you still want to be a tumbler then skill focus acrobatics is an option.
see you somewhere else guys ^_^ !
I really enjoy monks when I played one recently I didn't find they fit the negative stereotype . my character was fun effective and a threat to the bad guys. the UM Qigo g monk excites me.
Why are dwarven monks hated. wouldn't duergar make better monks with enlarge person as a spell like ability and invisibility and the save bonus still.
dont underestimate the monk they are the last one to die in a tpk, cause the badguys wont care about him :P
Oddly enough, I'm starting a new campaign Friday, and one of the players made a Monk for the game.
It's a halfling monk. We roll stats, and I tried something new, I rolled 3 sets of stats and let people choose any set they wanted. I was a little surprised when one set came up as 12/14/14/14/16/17 (I'll let you guess with set everyone chose) :)
Anyway, since everyone has great stats, they can play around with their builds quite a bit, so he's a DEX/WIS (19/16) monk with decent str (12 as a halfling). He's gone Hungry Ghost archetype, So, he's gone Weapon Finesse, Dodge, and Improved Grapple.
Honestly, I'm expecting him to go running around the field of combat grabbing people by the legs and screaming "Take him off at the bellybutton!" to the other players. :)
Even better is, he worships the goddess of death. ;) I tried to talk him into going Monk of the Empty Hand so he could wield a scythe and use it with his flurry. The idea of a halfling monk with high dex and speed, spinning like a dervish through combat with a scythe while wearing black robes with bones and skulls emblazoned in white on it just makes me smile for some reason. :)
They don't really have a place, and it takes a certain level of games-fu to run them well. That is my 2 cents for this post.
Because the Crunch doesn't match the Fluff.
These, essentially.
The monk seems to inspire someone to have high dexterity and wisdom, to run and jump around the place, to be vaguely aescetic and not use much equipment, and deliver flurries of attacks.
The problem is, your entire offense is based on strength, you need magical items potentially more then any other class, and if you're using that monk speed then you aren't using that monk flurry.
The best way to play a monk is to literally just stand in place and do nothing but punch people. For most people, that's not a monk - that's just a reskinned fighter.
It's been said that the monk is meant to be a "defensive" class. Problem is, being "defensive" doesn't mean jack all in 3e, where overwhelming offense will win literally every single time.
I keep hearing things like "Paizo doesn't like monks" and the like.
What gives. Monks are sweet, and probably the most common melee class I play.
I miss some of the thief like abilities from 1e, like open locks, but whatever.
Why does everyone think monks are weak? They get great saves, true I could leave some of their class abilities on the drawing table.. but I don't think they get gimped.
Some of the monk archetypes get rid of the awful straight monk abilities and replace them with something else at least.
True the monk hasn't gotten any power bumps, but does he need it?
The monk in my campaign has been really kicking NPC butt. He uses flurry, and he is "tricked out" in tripping. Prone is just not a good place to be. Some of them don't even survive getting up if the other PCs are near.
I figure I have a few responses as GM.
- Flying encounter
- Hard to trip encounter - high CMD, good at ripping, etc.
- Immpossible to trip enounter - no legs, etc.
But I can only sprinkle in those kinds of things.
So my "supposed to be impressive" NPC's are getting punked. Maybe I should just take the -4 and finish the fights while prone.
Seems kind of goofy though.
Anyone dissing a monk has never played one or had a good one in their party. The monk is my favorite class since the first edition... yeah I am old and know how to play a monk. We currently have a party of 6 players with a DM that is determined to walk a fine line between TPK and single digit HP for the party after an encounter (nothing but love man... you run an awesome campaign). I trade point with a fighter but I usually take it because I have more hit points and have saving throws that are rediculous. We are all level 6 - 7 and on a quest that started in January.
A monk gets multiple strikes per round, awesome bonuses on saving throws for Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. You get feats that boarder on crazy powerful once your level gets high enough... and we have not even begun to discuss ki points!!
I will admit that at low levels it can be a tough time... but hit 5th or higher and you have a killing machine. Play a monk on an extended campaign, read everything you can, take advantage of the powers and you will not regret it! And I promise you will frustrate your DM more than once with your crazy powers that they have never heard about.
(I am sure my DM is reading this right now and will do his best to smack me down next week)
Anyone dissing a monk has never played one or had a good one in their party.OH REALLY?
I'm sorry, the rest of your post was ignored after you told me I was playing my monk wrong.
Not trying to haterize... just trying to get people to try an awesome class that does not get played a lot.
Not trying to haterize... just trying to get people to try an awesome class that does not get played a lot.Anyone dissing a monk has never played one or had a good one in their party.OH REALLY?
I'm sorry, the rest of your post was ignored after you told me I was playing my monk wrong.
I'd love to play the monk more! I love the class!
It's just mechanically bad.
It's got Soulknife Syndrome.
Why would you need a STR based monk? Weapon finesse and the added dice to damage make up for lack of str.... no?I can never find the right place for monk. They aren't front line fighters. They aren't skill monkeys. They shouldn't be hiding in the back. I've never really figured out how to play a monk, I suppose that's why I just never bother. Or otherwise look them over.They don't really have a place, and it takes a certain level of games-fu to run them well. That is my 2 cents for this post.Nope. They don't make up for the lack of strength since a strength based monk can roll the same number of dice and add his strength also. If you still want to be a tumbler then skill focus acrobatics is an option.
Wraithstrike NOOOOOO!!!
Old School Monk wrote:
Anyone dissing a monk has never played one or had a good one in their party.
OH REALLY?
I'm sorry, the rest of your post was ignored after you told me I was playing my monk wrong.
Oh not you too!!! Damn guys we've lost them....
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I don't think that the monk is all bad. It just has a lot of bad abilities. Lets look it over at length.
Hit dice: D8s on a melee guy. Could be better, but is on parity with other light fighters like the rogue.
Saves: Excellent. And with our low hit dice we'll probably need 'm.
Skills: 4+int looks like an average number of skill points and the class skills are pretty good including highlights of Acrobatics, Perception, Climb, Intimidate, sense motive and swim. That's all the mobility skills the awareness skills, and even a few knowledge skills I didn't mention. Too bad we're probably gonna tank int.
BAB: 3/4. Ick. I hate fighting without full bab. Good thing there's flury. Its still a moderate drawback as it restricts access to feets like Improved Critical.
Flury: Lets combine psuedo-full BAB with all the basic two-weapon fighting feats. Also, just because it would be more awesome lets never halve the str bonus.
AC Bonus: This makes monks not look like total fools to walk into combat without even a chain shirt at first level. Its a bit of a mistake to consider it a replacement effect at high levels when items like Bracers of Armor can take the place of traditional armor. On one hand its probably a lower bonus than a rogue would get from a chain shirt but on the other hand it does apply to things such as touch attack and CMD, so I'm willing to call this ability a wash.
Unarmed Strike: This is good. This stats at just below the level of dual wielding short swords and by 12th level is only rivaled by exotic dual weapons like the sawtoothed saber. All while holding a torch in one hand and a bucket of holy water in the other.
Bonus feats: the list is fairly poor giving a small subset of combat feats including most of the combat maneuver feats. Small win since we don't want int this lets use the Improved Grapple/Trip/Disarm. Nothing to really complain about here.
Stunning Fist: talk about a stinker. I dislike having to expend the ability before it hits. And then they get to save. Ick. Its a fort save (traditional a good save for most monsters). It is probably game over to stun your opponents if your group has its act together. This is the first ability I strongly dislike.
Evasion: An ability that some consider a bargin at 25k on a ring slot. I'll take it.
Fast Movement: It does vary somewhat in its utility biased on the average size of your combats, but in the tactical fighting the ability to not just close with your opponents but move around them to a flank is excellent.
Maneuver training: Lets us do combat maneuvers as well as a fighter. We continue to mitigate the bad BAB. Sadly our CMD is still a bit low, but at least we're adding our wisdom to that.
Still Mind: +2 to saves vs Enchantment. Umm... okay I've already got good Will and high wisdom but it would probably be bad for the party cleric if I was dominated while I happened to be standing beside him. Unfortunately most bad guys know that monks save like champions so are going to hit the fighter with those Dominate Person spells anyway. So not super useful but not bad either.
Ki pool: This is saucy. It lets the monk overcome some DR and it lets the monk strike one more time, get the burst of speed to move around the dinosaur and still have a standard to trip it, and go super defense when his eagerness to flank enemies lands him in a somewhat precarious position. Its Super Effective.
Slow Fall: Most often remembered five minutes after it would have been useful. This ability is just bad.
High jump: Only usefull if your DM likes to do things like set enemies on top of roofs or across ravines. OTOH it sure looks cool to have a standing high jump of 10 feet (taking 10 at level 5 and spending a ki with only 10 dex). Not super useful, but sometimes fun.
Purity of Body: Immune to Disease. Umm.. okay. I'm immune to a very rare ailment that I can probably make the fort save against anyway. Waste of text.
Wholeness of Body: I can burn 2 ki to heal HP (but not ability damage) equal to a nights rest. I'd rather punch things more. More wasted text.
Improved Evasion: Its for winning.
Diamond Body: I could probably save vs most poison, but in comparison to Purity of Body there are a lot of poisons out there. Many monsters + alchemists, assassins, ninjas. Its a keeper.
Abundant Step: Win. The super heroic mobility powers at their zenith.
Diamond Soul: WTF? I have to spend a standard action every round I want to be able to be healed? This is a horrific "ability" to give a PC. If it was a solo game or even was able to say down until you put it back up it wouldn't be bad but as it is you have to beg any DM to house rule it. I'm suddenly glad that PFS retires characters at 12th level and I never have to deal with this pain. Paizo clearly hates monks.
Quivering Palm: Its a save or die. Nice!
Timeless Body: I can think of exactly one creature in the Bestiary II that this isn't a waste of text against.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Because my party's cleric hasn't been casting Tongues since level 5.
Empty Body: GTFO card. Some utility but not a huge amount compared to Abundant Step.
Perfect Self: The original capstone grants the outsider type making the monk an illegal target for many spells and giving DR 10. Not horrible but not as amazing as many classes capstone in PFS.
A glance and APG archetypes shows that many of my least favorite ability get removed (specifically Stunning Fist) most of the time generally improving the outlook of the class.
TLDR: The monk has some very good class features that ably mitigate and enable his preferred unarmed and unarmored fighting style making him an excellent light fighter on par with the rogue if not quite up to the fighters gold standard.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go make a new thread raging about Diamond Soul.
stuff about abundant step
Why are you so high on this one? After you use it your round is over.
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The value of the monk is inversely proportionate to the linearity of encounters. In a chronicle with a rail-road and set-piece battles, the monk's mechanical inferiority stands out. In a less linear chronicle where the PCs have greater liberty to manage the terms of engagement, they have distinct advantages.
-- Monks, with their tendency to high saves, high initiative, immunities and high perception make tremendous scouts. They can root out ambush, retreat at high speed, and report back to their party.
-- These same qualities, plus some talent at stealth, permit the monk to be a superb skirmisher, presuming that they have a planned means of escaping spells and ranged attacks while they flee. Wizards in particular can be susceptible to this sort of assault, since the Monk can force them to deplete their spells even if the monk cannot secure a killing blow.
-- In games without ubiquitous flight, Monk mobility is supreme. They may apply force precisely where it is demanded.
-- In games with social conventions imposing limitations on encounters, such cases where carrying weapons or wearing armor openly could lead to trouble or embarrassment, the monk again has advantages over other classes.
These are a few examples. Unfortunately, this sort of freedom is not often available. Direct encounters are the general rule, because who has the space to set up 1000 feet of map (for example) to run a random encounter? Hence, non-linear methods in general and the monk in particular take a backseat to more common and comfortable classes.
Consider, if you will, the often cited inspiration for many monk characters: Jackie Chan. In order for the player of Jackie Chan, the monk, to get the maximum benefit from his character's wide range of abilities the GM will have to draw out the entire ladder-factory -every encounter-, complete with items for improvised weaponry and terrain kills. That's a pain, not going to lie. Sometimes you just want to put the dragon on the mat and say "let's go".
one person I'n our current game is playing a trip focused drunken monk. he there 2 dire apes off a cliff with ki throw. it's been pretty effective he's looking forward to the improved version.
? I was the FIRST to reply to this thread. ?
replying and contributing are two different things, get back to the peanut gallery with the rest of us ;)
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Let me be insulted in peace!
Be strong! Don't let the Monk Fanclub wear you down! It is only through persistence, iron logic and cold facts that we can maybe shine some light around here.
Also, Monks suck. If your only combat ability is flailing your arms wildly missing most of the time, you're doing it wrong.
If your only combat ability is flailing your arms wildly missing most of the time, you're doing it wrong.
<All I can do is smile.>
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Why are you so high on this one? After you use it your round is over.
Yeah. Its great!
Ever charged a castle? While the fighter spends two rounds climbing up a wall your appear in the guard tower threatening some crossbowmen.
Things get a bit hot a few rounds later when a dozen guards and a Dire Lion show up? Pop next to/flanking with the fighter and storm the front.
Heck its even a move action so you could drink a potion of enlarge person before appearing in the tower and get one final jab at the lion before returning to the party.
Dimension Door is the best combat mobility around. The only reason wizards just use it to get out of melee is because, well they're wizards.
Don't let the Monk Fanclub wear you down!I'm IN the Monk Fanclub!
Hey me too!
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Don't let the Monk Fanclub wear you down!I'm IN the Monk Fanclub!
No. They're in the Official Monk Fanclub, which has long sold out and abandoned any serious representation of downtrodden Monks everywhere.
You're in the True Monk Fanclub. You know, true to the core. Never abandoned the streets where you came from.
Why are you so high on this one? After you use it your round is over.Yeah. Its great!
Ever charged a castle? While the fighter spends two rounds climbing up a wall your appear in the guard tower threatening some crossbowmen.
Things get a bit hot a few rounds later when a dozen guards and a Dire Lion show up? Pop next to/flanking with the fighter and storm the front.
Heck its even a move action so you could drink a potion of enlarge person before appearing in the tower and get one final jab at the lion before returning to the party.
Dimension Door is the best combat mobility around. The only reason wizards just use it to get out of melee is because, well they're wizards.
Why is the fighter climbing the tower instead of shooting him with a bow?
A fireball can take care of that or maybe a the fighter alone. By 13th level that dire lion is not so scary.
You have to draw the potion first. Pulling it and drinking it means you are out of actions.
I agree it is good for escape, but running away is not what melee combatants normally do. I give it a 6.5.
I want to be in the club, but not with the Pathfinder monk. I think Kirth or ToZ had one. I need to look at it.
Why is the fighter climbing the tower instead of shooting him with a bow?Because the guy in the tower has the much debated Antagonize feat?
Zing!
Why is the fighter climbing the tower instead of shooting him with a bow?Because the guy in the tower has the much debated Antagonize feat?
That only proves the value of the feat, not the monk. :)
PS:This feat will not see the light of day in my games for reasons mentioned in the other thread(s).