I've wanted to do a guidebook to high-level play as long as I've wanted to do a post-20th level book; combining them into one book is actually a REALLY good idea.
I was hoping you would think so!
I worry that the discussion presumes we need one book for before 20th and another for post 20th. As a GM, I can intuit that 18th level and 22nd have more in common than either does with 8th level.
I think it would be a great format for gentle revision of 13th+, and it would be a good way to remove the "plateau" feeling at 20th — something nobody really likes. Epic players don't want to abruptly change gears at 20th, they want to logically extend the advancement arc.
Please continue to consider it.
Seeing a LOT of support for epic level play... not just in this thread, but across the boards, and indeed across the internet, or even best, in person at conventions, would help speed such a book along.
Consider this my official endorsement good sir.
I've wanted to do a guidebook to high-level play as long as I've wanted to do a post-20th level book; combining them into one book is actually a REALLY good idea.
Having ran as many long-term campaigns as I have over the years I can honestly say that in a Tome of Mythic Proportions a treatment of the 15th - 20th level play would be very useful. If for no other reason than planning. If you are running am organic campaign where the characters start low, or even 1st level, that is heading towards the mythic levels I have found it very useful to start the planning process for those adventures while the PCs are in the 15th-20th range.
Granted there is bountiful support already for this range of play, yet there is more to it than CR 16+ monsters. You just have to approach adventure design from a whole different angle - and it takes more time.
A great example of this is the recent high-level module "The Witchwar Legacy". It really is a terrific example of how to structure a high-level module.
In post-20 Mythic play there seems to be a similar 'boundary' around 30th or thereabouts. It is around there that things like magic item budget and whatnot become largely irrelevant and the scope of the campaign really goes cosmic. A PC that has been played from first level to the 30s that is also highly optimized is an amazing thing to behold.
In high-level play (15-20) the CR mechanic begins to lose its core integrity (mathematically speaking) depending upon how optimized the PCs are. It also can vary widely from one encounter to another. In mythic play (20-30) it really gets slippery. The PCs can fairly regularly handle encounters equal to their level + 7 or 8 in CR. In cosmic play (30+) CR = to EL+10 isn't unheard of.
My point?
A book in three sections: High, Mythic, Cosmic might be a nice way to address this. Combine it with monsters, stats on gods, magic items, and whatnot and you probably have a very handy tool.
But then, that's just my two cents.
In post-20 Mythic play there seems to be a similar 'boundary' around 30th or thereabouts. It is around there that things like magic item budget and whatnot become largely irrelevant and the scope of the campaign really goes cosmic. A PC that has been played from first level to the 30s that is also highly optimized is an amazing thing to behold.
You ain't kidding. If I don't take out the druid in one round, I'm not taking him out at all. And, frankly, if I don't take out the entire party all at the same time, I might as well not have taken any of them out.
In high-level play (15-20) the CR mechanic begins to lose its core integrity (mathematically speaking) depending upon how optimized the PCs are. It also can vary widely from one encounter to another. In mythic play (20-30) it really gets slippery. The PCs can fairly regularly handle encounters equal to their level + 7 or 8 in CR. In cosmic play (30+) CR = to EL+10 isn't unheard of.
Very true, but I think it's more because the CR really becomes much more of a guideline. In reality, I've found that I have to design encounters more by feel than by any sort of CR - and unless an encounter is designed to specifically target one or more weaknesses of the party (which is a very unrealistic thing to do - i.e. something that almost never happens) then it's a challenge for me to challenge the party.
A book in three sections: High, Mythic, Cosmic might be a nice way to address this. Combine it with monsters, stats on gods, magic items, and whatnot and you probably have a very handy tool.
But then, that's just my two cents.
I agree, but with the caveat that cosmic is its own thing. When you're playing characters up to even the mid-30s, you're still somewhat in the realm of normality. You still worry about mage's disjunction, and dying from damage, and dying period.
Once you've got that third Automatic Quicken and once you're ignoring material components, or once you've got over 1000hp, or once your cleric can throw true resurrection pretty much at will, you're not even in the same spectrum as normal characters, never mind the same wavelength.
Aside: from my experience, there's very, very few things that make high-level play difficult for me:
1. The sheltered vitality spell, which makes all ability damage/drain irrelevant.
2. The Close Quarters Fighting feat and it's ability to turn any grapple into a disaster of die rolling.
3. That INSANELY STUPID Iron Heart Surge maneuver from Tome of Battle, which makes virtually all effects irrelevant.
To a lesser extent the absolute nature of freedom of movement bothers me, and kelpstrands is a ridiculous spell, but those I can deal with. The three above? Ridiculous.
You ain't kidding. If I don't take out the druid in one round, I'm not taking him out at all. And, frankly, if I don't take out the entire party all at the same time, I might as well not have taken any of them out.
Yeah, druids under the old 3.5 really became monotonous at times didn't they? I for one, and I am pretty sure I am in a minority here, WELCOMED the Pathfinder changes to ye olde Master of Many Forms.
I've found that I have to design encounters more by feel than by any sort of CR - and unless an encounter is designed to specifically target one or more weaknesses of the party (which is a very unrealistic thing to do - i.e. something that almost never happens) then it's a challenge for me to challenge the party.
Same here! and that is one thing that always bothered me. As a funny aside however... the one combat that my players talk about the most from our first campaign that went epic wasn't even an epic encounter! They were walking across the countryside and they got jumped by 30 some odd gnolls looking to yamaha some travelers. At first the players thought I had slapped a ton of class levels on some gnolls so they totally cowboyed them. After it was all done they were laughing about it and I was like "Gnolls only counted four of you. They didn't know you were epic."
I agree, but with the caveat that cosmic is its own thing. When you're playing characters up to even the mid-30s, you're still somewhat in the realm of normality. You still worry about mage's disjunction, and dying from damage, and dying period.
Once you've got that third Automatic Quicken and once you're ignoring material...
Oh absolutely. In fact, in our home game we now play with a hard cap of 36th level. Once a character would reach 37th level he is pretty much seen as a quasi-deity and politely escorted off the material plane by those FAR more powerful than he.
1. The sheltered vitality spell, which makes all ability damage/drain irrelevant.
2. The Close Quarters Fighting feat and it's ability to turn any grapple into a disaster of die rolling.
3. That INSANELY STUPID Iron Heart Surge maneuver from Tome of Battle, which makes virtually all effects irrelevant.To a lesser extent the absolute nature of freedom of movement bothers me, and kelpstrands is a ridiculous spell, but those I can deal with. The three above? Ridiculous.
I agree on ALL THREE accounts. That g-d Iron Heart Surge maneuver ended up earning a BANNED stamp from me, I damn near got rid of the whole book as 'legal' - it was just such a headache!
The only other thing I would add, and this is a one-off was I had an insanely optimized PC that was a Healer/Ancestral Shugenja combo/thingy that through the merits of mischievous die rolls on random treasure charts ended up becoming a walking weapon of mass destruction once she hit the low 30s. Thankfully her player was less prone to displays of machismo (what with being a girl and all), therefor it didn't come up as often as it could have.
+1 I can't wait for a book on high level play, that covers both before 20th and after 20th.
+1 for high-level/mythic/epic support.
I've wanted to do a guidebook to high-level play as long as I've wanted to do a post-20th level book; combining them into one book is actually a REALLY good idea.
...ah someone mentions "epic", and the usual suspects gather ;D
I think providing the tools for running a high level game is essential before delving into mythic territory.
A book targeting level 15-25, without mentioning the dreaded e-word could be a good idea.
First of all we need meaningful stories. I think the mazalan books and old-school demon lord plots are good models - big, personal stories with real impact on the world. Diablo meets Casablanca, not greek gods. Classic - yet modern.
The adventure idea table in the old ELH (page 117) could have been better - high level stories must be more than just cosmic-crisis-of-the-week. The epilogues of Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull was far more interesting, myths come from somewhere and must have a foundation. I think once you start a "new" mythic story, its time to reboot the campaign.
We need bosses and mooks. Both must be very powerful, and not threaten setting integrity until the characters are ready to face them. Tricky that, when you think about it.
The critters must be adaptable and re-usable, as we all know that the page count will be limited for this of style of gaming. The Eternal and Mighty templates from the geniuses are a good start - we need more thinking like that.
We need boatloads of new treasures, and not just higher numbers. We need item sets and items for the rarely used slots.
The system lacks interesting powerful items in general - this could be a great way to draw in people who normally would not consider this type of book. 2012 will be the year of Diablo III, paizo would be foolish to not try to tap into that somehow.
We need more tools to make the game easier to run on high levels. Simple mooks, sample hoards, npc galleries and most important interesting story hooks.
A great support product would be a collection of mythic locations - divine tombs, a demon lord's sanctum, the well of souls and that sort of things. Something like the third eldritch might books perhaps? Or a rehash of your favorite WoW raids?
The success of Diablo show the potential interest in this sort of thing, but avoid slapping the "epic" label on it - the word has forever been tarnished by WotC.
If you are running am organic campaign where the characters start low, or even 1st level, that is heading towards the mythic levels I have found it very useful to start the planning process for those adventures while the PCs are in the 15th-20th range.
+1
A great example of this is the recent high-level module "The Witchwar Legacy". It really is a terrific example of how to structure a high-level module.
+2
In post-20 Mythic play there seems to be a similar 'boundary' around 30th or thereabouts. It is around there that things like magic item budget and whatnot become largely irrelevant and the scope of the campaign really goes cosmic. A PC that has been played from first level to the 30s that is also highly optimized is an amazing thing to behold.
+3
A book in three sections: High, Mythic, Cosmic might be a nice way to address this. Combine it with monsters, stats on gods, magic items, and whatnot and you probably have a very handy tool.
+epic
Starting the treatment of super-high levels with the treatment of high levels solves many of the problems inherent in the old ELH.
The first assumption that has to go is the one where you "cross a threshold" at 20th. Why? I'd say that around 15th-16th level is where you really cross a threshold, as 8th and 9th level spells become available. That's where the GM really needs to transition their entire way of thinking (again, because they had to switch gears around 7th-8th level too).
20th and 21st really ought not to be radically different experiences. It should be an arc, not a plateau.
But before we can make the arc playable past 20th, we need to really examine its beginning in the high levels. And, more often than not, an epic campaign needs those levels to establish the venues and villains that provide an internal consistency to high level games.
|
Another reason I would be interested in a "mythic adventures" handbook that enhances 15+ play would be how it makes multiclassing more desirable again. PF sought to fix a problem in 3.5 of people "dipping" into multiple classes purely out of optimization considerations, by removing dead levels and creating capstone abilities at 20th level. This created an incentive for players to "stick out" a class until they hit 20th level. But another consequence is that now I don't think about multiclassing because I don't want to miss out on that awesome 20th level power. The rules in their current state don't give much support to take a campaign beyond level 20. And what good is a capstone if I don't have much time in the campaign to use it?
I'd only be really interested in this if it detailed the process of the Test of the Starstone.
I've wanted to do a guidebook to high-level play as long as I've wanted to do a post-20th level book; combining them into one book is actually a REALLY good idea.A book in three sections: High, Mythic, Cosmic might be a nice way to address this. Combine it with monsters, stats on gods, magic items, and whatnot and you probably have a very handy tool.
But then, that's just my two cents.
+1 agreement wholeheartedly with high, mythic, cosmis idea. Support/ideas/background is necessary at all these levels.
I think providing the tools for running a high level game is essential before delving into mythic territory.
A book targeting level 15-25, without mentioning the dreaded e-word could be a good idea.
Snotlord "gets" it. :)
I'd only be really interested in this if it detailed the process of the Test of the Starstone.
I don't think that will ever be detailed since they would want each GM to decide for himself how it works. That way players can't build their characters around the idea, and try to strongarm a GM into making them a deity.
I'd only be really interested in this if it detailed the process of the Test of the Starstone.I don't think that will ever be detailed since they would want each GM to decide for himself how it works. That way players can't build their characters around the idea, and try to strongarm a GM into making them a deity.
Also, this more or less has to be a rulebook release. Something Golarian specific would belong in a Campaign Setting tie-in for that rulebook.
Which raises a host of entertaining questions, doesn't it?
My game is level 16. I would buy a high level book in a heartbeat.
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd only be really interested in this if it detailed the process of the Test of the Starstone.
That would NOT be included in a rulesbook hardcover, because it's world-specific info.
That information WOULD be included in a Golarion book that uses the mythic rules we'd put into a hardcover rulebook, though.
That information WOULD be included in a Golarion book that uses the mythic rules we'd put into a hardcover rulebook, though.
Nice!
How about overlapping the 'Mythic Adventures' book so that it gives guidelines on how to run with high-level characters under the existing rules, say levels 15-20, and then extends that past 20th?This is what I would most like to see.
I think it would be wise to downplay the "barrier" at 20th, and work on correcting higher-level play in general. This would naturally lead to some expanded rules for 20+ play, but I would really prefer the holistic approach.
I agree on downplaying the barrier at 20th level play...and a holistic approach...
I don't understand what are the problems that need correcting for 'high level play in general'? Have play lots of high level games since 3.0(some converted from 2nd ed) never ran into problems. Not saying there are not problems...just never had to deal with them. I am asking more for curiousity sake and I think if we are going to fix these problems we should discuss them to see if they are actual problems for everyone.
Edit: Added that last part in hopes of making the post less antagonistic and more constructive.
|
|
I have played an epic level character or two, and would like to offer some observations.
The foes must truly be impressive, and I think that mythic play should involve the characters be willing and able to do things that herald back to the greatest heroes of myth and literature. One thing that was common in my games was to have NPCs as foes -- this solved many of the problems of powerful monsters. (Golarion has more than a few figures who could fall into this role.)
I also think that character balance is an issue. I saw a few characters become more dominant over others, partly due to DM balance. (Ironically, the two most powerful characters in one campaign were a fighter/barbarian and a fighter/wizard -- both heavily laden with magic items. A few feats that I thought were inappropriate also was a big issue. As someone who tried to run a wizard with the "official" material, I ended up with an underpowered character in a game -- despite his history and achievements.) So, let's make sure that any "epic" or "mythic" level book allows all characters to be relevant in a group.
I did not particularly care for the Epic Level Handbook's spell system, as it felt a bit awkward and did not flow from the existing system. In many ways, I thought that Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved (that went up to 25th level and allowed 10th level spells) fit in more easily with the rest of the system. A "mythic level" book should seem to be a logical extension of the Pathfinder rules, not a variant system. I like the division into high, mythic and cosmic that some suggest. (Perhaps Nethys and Aroden as mortals ventured into these levels before their ascension.)
Alzrius, as usual, I like your ideas. A book that covers a lot of topics and offers insights on how to do things would be important.
Perhaps we can see something on how to tackle big issues such as dealing with barbarian hordes, planar invasions, and great threats. The key thing with a "Mythic Heroes and Adventures" book is that all characters feel vital, that the heroes and villains can do truly amazing things, and that above all else, it is FUN!! The main thing is if it is to be done, do it right. (Hmm, maybe see if Monte Cook and a few other good writers might want in on such a project.)
(As for divine ascension in Golarion, apparently Nethys and Irori both ascended without the Starstone.)
|
I've been championing a "post-20th level book" for some time here at Paizo, but the time has to be right for us to do it. It won't be called "Epic level" though, since whatever we do with the topic will be handled differently enough from the 3rd edition take on the topic that calling it "epic" would be weird.
My current favorite word for "post-20th level play" is "Mythic Adventures." Or something like that.
Seeing a LOT of support for epic level play... not just in this thread, but across the boards, and indeed across the internet, or even best, in person at conventions, would help speed such a book along.
You have my support Sir! just don't make it a two-tier system where the level 1-20 level rules strangely break down at level 21+
Something I've always wished to see is some kind of continuation of the themes brought on by level 20 abilities most core classes have.
For instance:
Barbarian 20 / Mighty Rage / Unlocks some kickass hulk-like feats or rage powers (i.e. a barbarian 15 / fighter 5 can still take barbarian levels, but until he reaches say barbarian 20 / fighter 5, all he can add to his repertoire are regular rage powers, not the prereq barbarian 20 hulk powers...)
Bard 20 / Deadly Performance / Unlocks some feats that can make deadly performance more effective against more targets, i.e. vs. undead, or to remove the mind-affecting part of the effect, or to remove the death effect part of the effect to make it a vibration or sonic-based ability, or to make it inflict nonlethal damage on the order of 10 pts. per bard level, etc. Basically this has the potential to make the bard a real guitar hero "I strum my lyre and people are blown up sky high" kind of guy. Oh, and perhaps have that kickass level 21+ thang do different thing depending on which type of perform you use... yeah...
Cleric 20 / Nothing at level 20... / so these guys deserve something HUGE at level 21+... perhaps some seed of the divine or some demigod template or something... some of the domains such as Earth or Fire grant an immunity to energy, so for these guys something else expanding on this perhaps? but in general, yeah, these guys need something major and hugely cool and inspirational. Bursting/transforming into an angel of some type would be cool... or build that into the level 21+ progression preferably (i.e. level 21, you get wings; level 22, you get that mofo solar sword; level 23, you can grant a wish to a creature once a day; etc... all the while getting more cleric levels of course, which would biggen your good old channel, spells, and other regular cleric shyte...)
Druid 20 / Wild Shape at will + Timeless Body / I know timeless body isn't the level 20 ability, but it begs to be expanded... IMMORTALITY... YESSSSSSSSSSSSS... "there can only be one" (but better) Only a crit by vorpal sword can kill these guys... LOL... but yeah, something cool... perhaps first by starting to remove any previous age penalties accrued, and removing the die by old age part of timeless body at first, then more as you gain levels; PLUS, Wild Shape needs major pimping at level 21+, DRAGONS SHAPE! GIANT SHAPE! shapechange at will? but something original that doesn't result in all the paperwork resulting from the use of shapechange? perhaps shapechange at will at first, then at higher levels, you get to "specialize" in a type of shape and gain huge enhancements/abilities with that shape only (with regular "as per spell enhancements" with the other shapes...) Whatever happens they must gain the ability to fly in space! (along with their animal companion!) and stand on top of the world looking down like the immortal sentinels they are! (but don't give them green lantern rings... :) ) The ones with the weather domain, in this top of the world viewpoint, must have the ability to enact instant hurricanes or earthquakes or volcanoes wherever they want! Don't forget the huge animal companion boosts! (at that point animal companions should be able to be awakened at least!)
Figther 20 / Weapon+Armor Mastery / not sure where to go with this one... make this better than it is? :P It's hard to suggest anything epic like for fighters without going into the crazy tiger mofo dragon territory of flying silliness. Perhaps one good way to make fighters a real epic threat would be to start to give them magic immunity, such as golems (different schools of fighters with different golem-like immunities)
Monk 20 / Perfect Self / ok I'm running out of steam... someone else take it from here. :P
Cheers!
I very much want to see rules for 20+ level play. Overlapping with additional info for 15+ level play would be great.
I also agree that the transition from 1-20 to 21+ shouldn't be as jarring as the previous system.
I'm also all for additional support for high level play, including APs, modules and setting books.
Signed,
Joe Wells
A Gamer
|
|
I'd only be really interested in this if it detailed the process of the Test of the Starstone.That would NOT be included in a rulesbook hardcover, because it's world-specific info.
That information WOULD be included in a Golarion book that uses the mythic rules we'd put into a hardcover rulebook, though.
And this is how you explain it to the marketing people.
First, we make the post 20 level book.
With that in place, we can now make a new Gods book, since the old one was 3.5 and not stated. With stats, and mix in an update to the "Great Beyond" book and we can even justify it as a hardcover in the same vein as the campaign setting.
Mix in an epic encounters Chronicle where you outline the starstone, stat up Nex, Geb, Tar-Baphon, etc...maybe even add "extended adventure path" book that give more specifics on what you can do at the end of the more popular APs...kids we have the makings of a full quarter worth of theme across the whole product line.
Some type of Epic, Post 20, heck even Beyond Puberty type book is what I'm needing, so even though you guys are busy please get the ball rolling. Heck I've been working for the same company for some 22 years and am no where near retirement, so I'll be damned if these lazy PC's are getting off that lightly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think that will ever be detailed since they would want each GM to decide for himself how it works. That way players can't build their characters around the idea, and try to strongarm a GM into making them a deity.
I'm a GM that wants guidance on ascension to divinity; I don't care if it's the Starstone or not, but that's the reference for their game world. Why should I lose out simply because other GMs can't learn to use the word no? More specifically, why should Paizo lose out on my money because other GMs can't say no?
Besides, if that's really a concern, all they have to do is say that the Starstone test changes over time.
The only reason I'd be interested in epic play is in various ways to END a campaign in an epic way.
I'd only be really interested in this if it detailed the process of the Test of the Starstone.That would NOT be included in a rulesbook hardcover, because it's world-specific info.
That information WOULD be included in a Golarion book that uses the mythic rules we'd put into a hardcover rulebook, though.
You would get my money for that second thing, then. Good to know.
How about overlapping the 'Mythic Adventures' book so that it gives guidelines on how to run with high-level characters under the existing rules, say levels 15-20, and then extends that past 20th?This is what I would most like to see.
I think it would be wise to downplay the "barrier" at 20th, and work on correcting higher-level play in general. This would naturally lead to some expanded rules for 20+ play, but I would really prefer the holistic approach.
+1
There's a reason that AP's only go as high as level 17 and after that it's up to GM's to come up with worthy threats. Hell, my last campaign ( CotCT ) had me lumping four or five of the encounters together multiple times to even make the players break a sweat.
Support for high level play in the normal 14+ level play would really be appreciated.
I've wanted to do a guidebook to high-level play as long as I've wanted to do a post-20th level book; combining them into one book is actually a REALLY good idea....ah someone mentions "epic", and the usual suspects gather ;D
Heheheh ... guilty as charged.
I agree that making encounters feel epic is one of the hardest parts of the whole shebang. Part of it is because the characters get pretty jaded after a while. I still haven't figured it out - sometimes encounters that I intend to be HUGE end up as throwaways, and sometimes encounters that I dismiss as throwaways when I'm writing them end up being recounted over and over.
Part of it is probably my inability to play to the strengths of the enounters I create, while I've got several people at my table with characters that they've been playing for five years and know inside and out. An optimized uber-high-level fighter is a scary, scary thing.
But part of it is making sure there's a good mix of non-combat and roleplaying encounters in there so that they get reminded that they're not just unstoppable engines of destruction.
Anyways, I agree that high-level games are about way more than high-level combats and opponents, and are very dependent on what kind of game a group wants to play. In some, the characters are just really powerful mortals (like, for example, Conan), in others they're immortals or near-immortals (like Gandalf or Elric), and in others they're gods or near gods (like, say, Hercules or Xena). All of these are playable and fun, but all have different premises and require different styles of play, even if some of the elements are the same.
I guess it all comes down to how you make the game actually work. This is different than the rules - I hear over and over how the ELH rules are "broken", but I've had no trouble with them (probably because we don't bother with epic spellcasting) - I have more trouble with non-epic stuff when used at levels above 20 (see my earlier, very short list).
The most important points in such a book would be:
A. Appropriate challenges for that level of power (Monsters that are well-crafted and thought, and yet not immune to everything or with 30 spell-like abilities).
Especially non-combat encounters. It's especially important for such powerful characters that they not view every encounter as "pound the opponent to sand and get what you want."
B. Progression that is still fun, and not homogenized into nothingness, like it was in the ELH.
This all depends on the play style. The ELH progression makes sense for me, but the players in our group are not going for godhood - they're simply uber powerful. Adding levels in prestige classes and adding feats keeps things pretty smooth for us, rather than adding uber-powerful abilities for above-level-20 characters.
But, in a different game, I can see it going differently.
C. Epic level spellcasting rules that make sense. I don't know if extra "real" spell levels would be appropriate or not, but if they aren't, then the rules need to be extra-clear as to how to craft spells appropriate for the system, and that do not suck! I can't stress that enough. The Epic Spells were awful in everything, and required Spellcraft DCs that were insane.
The epic spell system was based on a supposition that completely fails in my game - that the PCs would have wealth, XP and time to support such things. At our table, they have none of that, so it's an epic fail. The only epic spellcasting that exists is mythals save for a few tablets left around by the ancients (read: plot devices) that have epic spells.
However, I'm sure there's games in which it would work.
The error that need to be avoided at all costs is an exponential increase of power; keep it geometric, and it should be fine.
Heck, keep it linear. That's what a lot of the ELH stuff was aimed at - that's why all classes gained the same BAB/save progressions and why most of the advancement was based on feats - it slowed the power gain way down, especially at high levels (read: post-40).
The other interesting thing I observed in our game is that sometimes the players put into effect long, long plans - taking 5 or even 10 levels in a prestige class is relatively minor when your total levels are 40 or more.
|
My family game, still playing 3.5, regularly goes into 20+ levels. The GM plans, usually, to go to 40 in almost every circumstance. Getting a high-/mythic-level guide would be the thing to finally convert them to PRPG. Aside from that, it's something my new group has been really looking forward to.
Here's my vote for a high-/mythic-level guide book =)
I'd love to see a high/mythic-level book as well.