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Ok, say in round 1 I cast Misfortune (below level 8 so 1 round duration) on an enemy, or Evil Eye (and he saves to reduce it to 1 round) or another hex like that.
When I use Cackle in round 2 now, are those hexes still active and get renewed, or did they end at the beginning of my turn?
Or wait... would it actually be possible to hex Misfortune on someone and immediately Cackle in the same round, making it 2 rounds duration right from the start?
(Even if so, I'd still like an answer to the first question as well)
1. No (effects end at the start of your round before you go)
2. yes -- provide they are in range of course and you have the move action to spend. Next round you could conceivably cackle twice and get 2 more rounds of duration.
1) See that is cheezy. The effects should end at the END of your next turn. Otherwise single round buffs/debuffs and the like become functionally useless. The effect 'lands' at the END of your action, so it should end at the END of your next action. Any sooner and it technically would not have lasted a 'full round'.
2) Technically that is correct, altough I suspect not RAI :p
1) See that is cheezy. The effects should end at the END of your next turn. Otherwise single round buffs/debuffs and the like become functionally useless. The effect 'lands' at the END of your action, so it should end at the END of your next action. Any sooner and it technically would not have lasted a 'full round'.
2) Technically that is correct, altough I suspect not RAI :p
1. Nothing cheesy about it -- that's the way the effect rules run. People have been kvetching about it since 3.0 (and before honestly).
2. Don't see how it violates any RAI in any sort of way -- especially when it was pointed out to them during the playtest and they left it in.
Sorry, I haven't met a GM yet who would apply that ruling.
In essence what this says is that a 1 round duration is actually LESS than 1 round. There would be zero point to using 1 round buffs or debuffs in solo play.
Sorry, I haven't met a GM yet who would apply that ruling.
In essence what this says is that a 1 round duration is actually LESS than 1 round. There would be zero point to using 1 round buffs or debuffs in solo play.
Might want to add an "in person" on that first line because when I GM that rule is in place.
The players are generally happy for it too (since it works both ways).
Yeah, I've never heard of a ruling like that before today either, nor would I appreciate it if a GM sprung it on my witch character. Certainly the effects end at the END of your round, rather than at the beginning. Otherwise, as has been said, it is (almost) functionally useless.
Yeah, I've never heard of a ruling like that before today either, nor would I appreciate it if a GM sprung it on my witch character. Certainly the effects end at the END of your round, rather than at the beginning. Otherwise, as has been said, it is (almost) functionally useless.
It's not that bad really
Round 1:
- Misfortune #1, lasts 1 round
- Cackle, last 2 rounds now
Round 2:
- Misfortune #1 still lasts 1 round
- Cast Misfortune #2 on another, last 1 round
- Cackle, both last 2 rounds again
Repeat
The problem happens if they move out of range of your Cackle, and you have to keep moving to stay in range. I guess you could Cackle as your standard action then though, so at least your already applied debuffs don't vanish.
The Combat RoundEach round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Don't care if you like it or not -- that's the rules. Effects that last a certain number of round end just before the initiative count that the began on.
So they began on your initiative count, and end right before your initiative count on the next round.
Standard Operating Procedure.
Don't care if you like it or not -- that's the rules. Effects that last a certain number of round end just before the initiative count that the began on.
So they began on your initiative count, and end right before your initiative count on the next round.
Standard Operating Procedure.
Well...
Well...just...
...DARN IT!
Don't care if you like it or not -- that's the rules. Effects that last a certain number of round end just before the initiative count that the began on.
So they began on your initiative count, and end right before your initiative count on the next round.
Standard Operating Procedure.
Well...
Well...just...
...DARN IT!
Them's the brakes.
Sorry about the slight rude taint to the post -- I need sleep.
Meaning 1 round spells would effectively be of no use to the caster...
I spend a round summoning my 1st level Summon Monster, duration is 1 round.
Next round, when it is my turn to act, it has disappeared.
Pointless much?
Meaning 1 round spells would effectively be of no use to the caster...
I spend a round summoning my 1st level Summon Monster, duration is 1 round.
Next round, when it is my turn to act, it has disappeared.
Pointless much?
No since it acts on the turn it appears on. So it appears, you get your action, its action, stays around until the start of your next turn and then before you act disappears.
So on the turn it gets there you get your action, and its action plus another body on the field (providing flanking, getting an AoO, and eating attacks) until the start of your next round.
Meaning 1 round spells would effectively be of no use to the caster...
I spend a round summoning my 1st level Summon Monster, duration is 1 round.
Next round, when it is my turn to act, it has disappeared.
Pointless much?
Spells with a 1 round casting time don't work that way. It works like this:
Suppose your wizard has an initiative of 10.
Round 1 - Wizard begins casting on initiative 10.
Round 2 - Wizard finishes casting at the beginning of initiative 10 and monster appears. Monster is capable of acting in round 2.
Round 3 - Just before initiative 10, the monster disappears.
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Meaning 1 round spells would effectively be of no use to the caster...
I spend a round summoning my 1st level Summon Monster, duration is 1 round.
Next round, when it is my turn to act, it has disappeared.
Pointless much?
No since it acts on the turn it appears on. So it appears, you get your action, its action, stays around until the start of your next turn and then before you act disappears.
So on the turn it gets there you get your action, and its action plus another body on the field (providing flanking, getting an AoO, and eating attacks) until the start of your next round.
Still, there are a LOT of abilities out there that, by RAW, just became functionally useless. (Well, were always useless I guess.)
Cleric domain powers are especially guilty of this as many can't even be used by the cleric himself.
Still, there are a LOT of abilities out there that, by RAW, just became functionally useless. (Well, were always useless I guess.)
Only if you're running solo. If you stun/stagger/daze/whatever a monster for one round, all your allies get to do something to it before your next turn comes up.
Still, there are a LOT of abilities out there that, by RAW, just became functionally useless. (Well, were always useless I guess.)Only if you're running solo. If you stun/stagger/daze/whatever a monster for one round, all your allies get to do something to it before your next turn comes up.
No, I was thinking more like a cleric giving himself +10 Strength for 1 round and then only having a move action to...to what? Pick something up? Useless!
Still, there are a LOT of abilities out there that, by RAW, just became functionally useless. (Well, were always useless I guess.)
Cleric domain powers are especially guilty of this as many can't even be used by the cleric himself.
If you insist on only using them on yourself then yes. However outside of that actually name some powers that have become useless based on this information.
No, I was thinking more like a cleric giving himself +10 Strength for 1 round and then only having a move action to...to what? Pick something up? Useless!Still, there are a LOT of abilities out there that, by RAW, just became functionally useless. (Well, were always useless I guess.)Only if you're running solo. If you stun/stagger/daze/whatever a monster for one round, all your allies get to do something to it before your next turn comes up.
Then he ought to be giving +10 Strength to someone else. :)
Or, what Abraham spalding said.
Only if you're running solo.
Which is sorta the point.
Doesn't seem 'right'.
Incredibly effective when dealing with only one or two baddies at a time (unfortunately our DM eventually takes offense and has more show up before can dispatch hexed foes...).
For added effect, play this when you cackle.
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Only if you're running solo.Which is sorta the point.
Doesn't seem 'right'.
While I love solo adventures and whole heartedly support them; this game is designed and balanced around teams of heroes, and a single round buff ending at the end of an initiative tick creates a lot of small balance issues.
I'll use Diviner's fortune from a divination wizard for an example.
Round 1: Wizard goes on a 20 and his fighter buddy goes on a 10. Wizard delays until initiative 10 and immediately puts diviner's fortune on the fighter. Fighter takes a full-attack action with a +5 on all his attacks.
Round 2: Fighter gets a second round of +5 attacks since it won't end until the end of the initiative tick. Wizard is free to act and the next round you can repeat this.
I know that's a really minor thing but enough minor things can build up to break balance. (And I think we can all agree that balance is tenuous at best in RPG's)
Though I am in the camp that I don't like the current ruling and wish there was an elegant and simple solution.
why are people saying you can not cackle to extend the misfotune hex?
Because unless you cackle in the same round you use misfortune, misfortune will end before you get to cackle in the following round.
Round 1: Misfortune.
Round 2: Your turn starts and misfortune ends. You cackle, but misfortune has already ended so it is not extended.
It sucks, but it seems, RAW you have to
Round 1: Misfortune. Cackle.
Round 2: Your turn starts. Misfortune keeps going. You cackle again.
Round 3: Misfortune keeps going. You move to avoid danger.
Round 4: You start your turn and misfortune ends.
This is especially bad due to its limited range. You cannot maintain misfortune or similar abilities while cackling AND keeping your foes within 30 feet.
That is why it is functionally useless.
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This is especially bad due to its limited range. You cannot maintain misfortune or similar abilities while cackling AND keeping your foes within 30 feet.
That is why it is functionally useless.
Naw, give your familiar a wondrous item that casts floating disk and a small chauffeur cap. Full-round actions on the go!
Naw, give your familiar a wondrous item that casts floating disk and a small chauffeur cap. Full-round actions on the go!This is especially bad due to its limited range. You cannot maintain misfortune or similar abilities while cackling AND keeping your foes within 30 feet.
That is why it is functionally useless.
The fact that the ability practically NEEDS something so patently ridiculous so as to remain useful is evidence enough that it needs to be changed in some way.
1. Nothing cheesy about it -- that's the way the effect rules run. People have been kvetching about it since 3.0 (and before honestly).
I've never done that to my players, if the effect goes off at the end of your turn, duration lasts until end of your next turn. I'm the guy who plays a kobold like he's Hannibal, but I've always found that one to be mechanically obtuse. DM Fiat > RAW
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If this rule was the case then Paizo don't know it...
Xeanja holds no hatred for the PCs and doesn’t
especially want to kill them. She begins combat by casting
sleep. She then draws her wand of inflict light wounds and
uses her misfortune hex on whichever PC appears to be the
boldest. Every round thereafter, she cackles to maintain the
misfortune effect and uses her wand to attack PCs within
melee range.
If the ex cannot be cackled on the next turn then this wouldn't work.
The fact that the ability practically NEEDS something so patently ridiculous so as to remain useful is evidence enough that it needs to be changed in some way.
Which is precisely why the vast majority of DM's house rule it otherwise.
If this rule was the case then Paizo don't know it...
** spoiler omitted **
If you go by the letter of the law, it would seem to be the case. Most of us don't play it that way because a pragmatic interpretation dictates otherwise, as evidenced by the aforementioned module. Every table is different however, and no table is wrong, so long as the people at that table are enjoying themselves.
Alright, so we now know the RAW and the RAI. Now it's just up to the GMs to choose which one they wish to side with on this particular issue.
Don't forget that misfortune lasts 2 rounds when the witch reaches level 8. It takes some time to get there and 2 rounds is still not much time (even though anything longer would make the hex too strong) but it does free up the occasional move action without instantly ending te hex.
Don't forget that misfortune lasts 2 rounds when the witch reaches level 8. It takes some time to get there and 2 rounds is still not much time (even though anything longer would make the hex too strong) but it does free up the occasional move action without instantly ending te hex.
You can still use your standard action to cackle in rounds where you have to move.
Don't forget that misfortune lasts 2 rounds when the witch reaches level 8. It takes some time to get there and 2 rounds is still not much time (even though anything longer would make the hex too strong) but it does free up the occasional move action without instantly ending te hex.
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong in its game mechanics in the APs before. I point to CoT where you have a:
Yeah, rules lawyers are right. ;)
An action that lasts for one round, begins on the initiative count you took the action and ends on your next initiative count.
Don't forget that misfortune lasts 2 rounds when the witch reaches level 8. It takes some time to get there and 2 rounds is still not much time (even though anything longer would make the hex too strong) but it does free up the occasional move action without instantly ending te hex.You can still use your standard action to cackle in rounds where you have to move.
I know. I was more thniking of situations were you absolutely need to use your move and your standard action for something else or use a full-round action (to withdraw or something).
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong in its game mechanics in the APs before. I point to CoT where you have a:
** spoiler omitted **
wow. being able to combine stuff like that could have been awesome and rewarding for all the feats taken.
What happens if the witch first curses (standard) and then cackles, in the sam round? Would this make the duration longer?
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong in its game mechanics in the APs before. I point to CoT where you have a:
** spoiler omitted **
wow. being able to combine stuff like that could have been awesome and rewarding for all the feats taken.
What happens if the witch first curses (standard) and then cackles, in the sam round? Would this make the duration longer?
No. The ability still ends before the same initiative in the next round. Using it at the end of the round does not change the initiative since all actions taken in a round have the same initiative.
No. The ability still ends before the same initiative in the next round. Using it at the end of the round does not change the initiative since all actions taken in a round have the same initiative.
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong in its game mechanics in the APs before. I point to CoT where you have a:
** spoiler omitted **
wow. being able to combine stuff like that could have been awesome and rewarding for all the feats taken.
What happens if the witch first curses (standard) and then cackles, in the sam round? Would this make the duration longer?
Feared this. Thank you very much.
No. The ability still ends before the same initiative in the next round. Using it at the end of the round does not change the initiative since all actions taken in a round have the same initiative.
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong in its game mechanics in the APs before. I point to CoT where you have a:
** spoiler omitted **
wow. being able to combine stuff like that could have been awesome and rewarding for all the feats taken.
What happens if the witch first curses (standard) and then cackles, in the sam round? Would this make the duration longer?
That's not true. Cackle extends the duration by 1 round. It is applied to the end of the total duration. It does not "overlap" like you seem to be describing. If it did, it couldn't possibly work as written.
See my example above for how it works.
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong in its game mechanics in the APs before. I point to CoT where you have a:
** spoiler omitted **
wow. being able to combine stuff like that could have been awesome and rewarding for all the feats taken.
What happens if the witch first curses (standard) and then cackles, in the sam round? Would this make the duration longer?
Yes it would. Cackle specifically states it adds to the duration. Since the duration goes from 1 round to 2 rounds it doesn't end next turn. Instead it ends before your action in two rounds.
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong
All the more reason for DM discretion. RAW is a guideline not an edict.
When the RAW is mechanically stifling to such a degree it gets house ruled otherwise and quite often changed in a later edition, this has occured since 0e and accounts for a not insignificant portion of the evolution of the game.
Yes it would. Cackle specifically states it adds to the duration. Since the duration goes from 1 round to 2 rounds it doesn't end next turn. Instead it ends before your action in two rounds.
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong in its game mechanics in the APs before. I point to CoT where you have a:
** spoiler omitted **
wow. being able to combine stuff like that could have been awesome and rewarding for all the feats taken.
What happens if the witch first curses (standard) and then cackles, in the sam round? Would this make the duration longer?
Sort of an Egg of Columbus, then. If the hex is 1 round only and Abraham and ravingdork are correct, you can do the trick, but not move in the same round doing it.
Sort of an Egg of Columbus, then. If the hex is 1 round only and Abraham and ravingdork are correct, you can do the trick, but not move in the same round doing it.
Complete agreement -- there are a very few ways of still getting a move action, but normally all you would have left is a five foot step (which can always be taken with a move action that does not involve movement) and a swift action.
Alright, so we now know the RAW and the RAI. Now it's just up to the GMs to choose which one they wish to side with on this particular issue.
Any DM that goes with RAW on this is to my mind inviting a group full of rules lawyers henceforth. . .
When it gets to the point that a particular point of RAW is rendered completely futile by a sufficiently clear RAI, it's equally pointless to debate the RAW on that issue.
Hrmmm, well, on a second checking of Barbarian rage I see my potential solution no longer exists...
I was going to say that you can easily treat Cackle as similar to Rage, in that you spend an action (free in the case of rage, move in the case of cackle) to extend an effect that would otherwise end with consequences (24 hour immunity for misfortune, fatigue for rage). Makes things very simple, and seems to abide by the RAI.
Except barbarian rage, at least per the PRD, doesn't require any actions to continue anymore (which I understand, probably to let the barbarian maintain rage during a stun effect.)
Still, this is the way I run it. Works for me. Cackle specifically states Misfortune Hex, and running it any other way creates odd versimilitude breakers via the initiative system:
"So I draw my weapon, hex the bad guy, then I cackle, and cast a spell!"
Cackle doesn't extend.
"So I hex the bad guy, cackle, draw my weapon, and cast a spell!"
Cackle does extend.
Yeaaaaahhh.....
Hrmmm, well, on a second checking of Barbarian rage I see my potential solution no longer exists...
I was going to say that you can easily treat Cackle as similar to Rage, in that you spend an action (free in the case of rage, move in the case of cackle) to extend an effect that would otherwise end with consequences (24 hour immunity for misfortune, fatigue for rage). Makes things very simple, and seems to abide by the RAI.
Except barbarian rage, at least per the PRD, doesn't require any actions to continue anymore (which I understand, probably to let the barbarian maintain rage during a stun effect.)
Still, this is the way I run it. Works for me. Cackle specifically states Misfortune Hex, and running it any other way creates odd versimilitude breakers via the initiative system:
"So I draw my weapon, hex the bad guy, then I cackle, and cast a spell!"
Cackle doesn't extend.
"So I hex the bad guy, cackle, draw my weapon, and cast a spell!"
Cackle does extend.Yeaaaaahhh.....
I think a lot of us are running it that way for similiar reasons, every edition has its faults to be rectified. :)
Well in addition to this, there is also the Cavalier of the Cockitrice.
It takes a standard action to invoke the demoralization effect granted by braggart. Chances are, you are going to just barely squeak by the targets defense against demoralization, especially early on when you don't have many items to boost intimidate.
This means you don't get to use braggart to its fullest, and gain the +2 to attack because you never can get another standard action before your one round is up.
No. The ability still ends before the same initiative in the next round. Using it at the end of the round does not change the initiative since all actions taken in a round have the same initiative.
Also Paizo has been known to be flat out wrong in its game mechanics in the APs before. I point to CoT where you have a:
** spoiler omitted **
wow. being able to combine stuff like that could have been awesome and rewarding for all the feats taken.
What happens if the witch first curses (standard) and then cackles, in the sam round? Would this make the duration longer?
That's not true. Cackle extends the duration by 1 round. It is applied to the end of the total duration. It does not "overlap" like you seem to be describing. If it did, it couldn't possibly work as written.
See my example above for how it works.
You are correct.