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i'd vote no. blindness is permanent and needs remove blindness. Demon needs to fight blindly

I like playing high level characters: unfortunately the DMs running games I play in often quit around level 15 (too low for retirement to me). Levels 18-30 are suitable, preferably in the 23-25 range. Games I run often have character complete their quests/retire around level 20-27.

Try the vital strike tree and shield specialization route. I went with it as a dwarven fighter/cleric and picked up the prestige class that provides sacred AC bump related to channel dice.

Had dwarven battle axe, heavy steel shield,and the ability to cast enlarge on myself.

feats included: weapon focus, specialization, shield focus, greater shield focus, vital strike, improved vs, greater vs, etc...

worked well.

I searched archives for this question and didn't see anything that was clear so I thought I'd bring it up just in case. If someone knows a link to this question with a good answer please share.

I am in a group with mostly melee characters and I am sorcerer. Since I'm concerned about affecting party members with AOE spells I have taken spectral hand and melee touch attack spells so I can do it from a distance. So far it has worked well, but I my question is regarding magic weapons and the hand.

As the magic weapons become more consistently common (levels greater than 10) or natural attacks count as magic, will the spectral hand provoke attacks of opportunity as it moves to deliver the touch spell and then back to me?

Or, is readying an action to strike the hand as it comes to touch the foe the way a foe needs to get rid of it (besides hitting me with an AoE where the had fails the save)?

thanks for the help

Reading the Core rules I found this, which I never paid much attention to...

Core Rules, pg. 55 wrote:

Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a f ighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one.

So the question is, do the Weapon and Armor Proficiencies granted by the class count as "bonus" feats? Can a fighter exchange heavy Armor Proficiency for a new Bonus feat?

No, heavy Armor proficiency is not a bonus feat for fighters.

I like all levels of play for many of the reasons mentioned already.

My thing is though for whatever game I am playing, I like to know where I can expect to generally retire the character (if possible). I generally get aggravated when a DM says we will play until about level 15 because that is where the story arc should play out to completion, but then after three levels (or just when you are really getting into the character and enjoying it thoroughly) the DM decides he/she is bored with the story arc and the game ends with no closure.

My favorite levels to play to are post 20 (preferably before level 25), but I have never been able to play a character to those levels myself. I have only been able to GM games from levels 1 - 27. These characters knew from the beginning though that there were numerous epically powerful NPCS such as divine and arcane casters, rogues, fighters and so on in the world. For me the reward is watching the players enjoy their characters become truly epic. Does it take awhile to prepare for? Yes. Is combat slower? You bet. Did the players have fun? I think so (didn't hear any complaints). I've ran games that stopped at levels 12 - 16 as well and upon conclusion, it just felt like there was so much more those characters could have done...

I have also played in games that were agreed to be played for a short duration where we started at higher levels (e.g., 14, 20, 24, etc...) and those were difficult just because you had no 'feel' for things the character did to get there. Playing with all the abilities that are obtained at those levels is fun and I hope those desiring to try that level someday find a DM willing to toil through it for everyone's enjoyment. Higher level games, to me, take effort on player's and the DM to have things move smoothly.

Last game I ran players started at level one and finished at about level 24. Overlying campaign plotline was the same from the beginning. However, since they were beginning characters, they only heard of rumors of the return of some horrible necromancer (a liche) and that he was possibly in charge of the invading orcs. As the campaign played out, they began to realize that the necromancer's generals were directing some of the orcs, goblins, and the evil aligned humans' efforts against their homeland. The party eventually the party discovered the former second in command of the necromancer was trying to return the necromancer to existence. Luckily, the party recovered the necromancer's phylactery before his followers did. The final battle played out between armies assembled by the PCs and the demonic and undead hordes surrounding a fallen Temple devoted to Orcus.

Ah, my core book now has heavy duty packing tape to keep the covers on and the binding is still trying to pull away. So, both the inside and outside has packing tape holding everything together. Book has been passed back and forth between six player since the first printing...pages fold, creased, tore etc...

Shifty wrote:

Meaning 1 round spells would effectively be of no use to the caster...

I spend a round summoning my 1st level Summon Monster, duration is 1 round.

Next round, when it is my turn to act, it has disappeared.

Pointless much?

Spells with a 1 round casting time don't work that way. It works like this:

Suppose your wizard has an initiative of 10.
Round 1 - Wizard begins casting on initiative 10.
Round 2 - Wizard finishes casting at the beginning of initiative 10 and monster appears. Monster is capable of acting in round 2.
Round 3 - Just before initiative 10, the monster disappears.

So as you state, the summoned monster acts in round 2 then disappears in round three or lasts the one round as per the rules for a first level caster...

1 Round debuffs/hexes work just fine: the bad guy/target of the debuff/hex has to go an entire round with that penalty. Evil Eye penalty to AC works for everyone else in your party until your next turn begins. If the target isn't dead by then, rinse and repeat. Granted misfortune can only target someone/thing once per day, so lower the AC first with evil eye, laugh about it, next round misfortune, and laugh some more. Incredibly effective when dealing with only one or two baddies at a time (unfortunately our DM eventually takes offense and has more show up before can dispatch hexed foes...).

Thanks for all the comments....

They start off at 0 (NPC - i.e. bonus), they do the minor task (speak to somone)...leads to them being offered training in a class of their choice. The mayor of the town has a number of retainers to train those willing to go the 'extra mile' (i.e., begin a career as an adventurer). Months later they are ready to go... and all the while get a better feel for the surrounding area...(hour or so of roleplay, or tasks where skills are used, but little threat to survival)...

My games are often deadly, especially when low levels so I'm thinking of...

having players choose an NPC class, no feats (two traits), roll HP add Con mod. Then calling the attack bonus, save bonuses, Character creation bonuses. They are essentially level 0 but with a little umph. Thinking it will provide some ideas for players' backgrounds and such, plus give them extra hp, save bonuses, maybe a couple spells (adept).

When player obtains first level (after a simple quest), they choose their class and are first level (first feat, etc...). If a character with +0 BAB has the warrior npc class they still do not qualify for feats requiring +1BAB because for this start-up the warrior's BAB is changed to a "Char creation attack bonus" (CAB). At first level, the player gets full HP + Con modifier for whichever class they choose (keeping their rolled NPC-prelevel HPs). Progressing onwards as normal from there. I'm thinking this may also help provide a small bonus to saves if the game is low magic (an extra +2 to a save).

ex.

Level: 0, XP: -50, Attack bonus+saves: called Character creation bonuses, Feats: 2 Traits, HP: Roll NPC class hp + Con modifier; whatever you'd have them do to get 50 XP needs to be super easy otherwise same problems as first level...Talk to constable Bob about the goblin infestation--reward 50 XP. Yipee - 1st level.

Level: 1, XP: 0, Attack bonuses+saves: per standard rules for chosen classes, Feats: as per normal character generation, HP: Max HP for class chosen + Con modifier. ---Basically like a normal game by the book---

thoughts?

thanks

First, I applaud your efforts to keep magic items rare and wonderful in your game while at the same time keeping your players in mind.

I've been a DM/GM for over 20 years and have tried to do the same as you. Most recently, I told them an organization of magic users (all high level/epic) restrict the prevalence of magic items in the world so as not to cause undo fear on the uneducated masses. If they wanted an item, they checked with any known magic user, church/temple/shrine, thieves/rogues (as fit their inkling). Did the person they check with always have what they wanted? No. Could someone get it for them? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, sometimes with ramifications. Imagine a noble's reaction when he sees a party member walking down the street with the noble's sword/ring/cloak...etc...oops

As a player, also for over 20 years, the games that sucked the most were those ran by DMs that insisted on having control over every minutia. Their idea of a good time was them telling you what you did, why, how and where...needless to say I didn't play in those games long, especially since I always thought the object of the game was to have fun (for the DM and players). To me 6 months to go from level 1 to level 2 sucks, especially if you play every week for 4-5 hrs.

Its a game, so a balance needs to be struck with players desires to shine with items they desire and maintaining the low magic feel with the GM.

Good luck

The way I read it is, you swiftly gain agile feet to use for your movement that round. Next turn if you are still stuck in an area with difficult terrain, you need to swiftly use agile feet again or suffer the movement restrictions.

Did something similar until game ended prematurely (so not to level 20). Character was an enchanter also used illusions. Fashioned the character after the 60s (make love, not war) ideas. Yes the DM provided 'tobacco' for color. Everyone always seemed hungry during this campaign...

Ok, thanks, confirmed my suspicions. Now I have a second opinion when I go to use it.

Bloody Assault:
Pre: St 13, Power attack, bab +6
Benefit: You can choose to take a -5 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuvers to inflict 1d4 bleed damage with your weapon melee attacks...

So I am playing a 8th level fighter meeting the prereqs.

When I attack using Bloody assault,
1) Do I suffer the -5 penalty from the feat and the power attack penalty for my level?

2) Can I use vital strike with bloody assault?

3) Can I attack using full attack bonus (not power attacking) with only the -5 penalty from the bloody assault feat?

4) Can the feat be used with the cleave tree...

Reason I am asking is I can envision a situation where the character would want to move into melee with foe and vital strikes with full attack bonus -5 penalty for the bloody assault feat.

thanks

General: Green - masters of the forest (for bad guys)
Book: Smaug
Movie/TV: Sean Connery's voiced dragon in Dragonheart

Obviously a fighter is the best monster slayer around. Why....?

No spell resistance to a sword/axe/mace/etc...
best attack bonus and most feats to max damage
doesn't run out of the most effective attack
can overcome DR with feats (and they get alot)
his attack isn't dependent on what he is fighting (no need to worry about sneak attacks, favored foes, or evil alignments)

of course anyone can make an argument for their favorite class...

(btw, my fav is a rogue...)

If I envision the game lasting awhile, then I try to incorporate knowledge of high level restrictions/limitations early on in the game (<level 5).

Example: Plane-shifting, teleporting, D-doors

ran campaigns where there were dimensional rifts and extraplanar creatures were invading through them. Use of rapid movement from one location to the next makes the rifts worse and has a chance for creatures to gate in close to where those spells either originate or terminate. PCs with plane-shifting & teleporting spells in this campaign rarely used such spells and only in dire need. The campaign was 3.0 and went to level 25-28.

Example: Magic-item stores existed by tightly regulated on what they could/could not sell by clerics/mages closely regulating magic item creation and sale (through artifacts).

Pcs greatly limited items they made and purchased even at high levels. They knew they could get some items, but the highly uber-optimized item would be difficult at best to purchase and could have had world ramifications. Campaign concluded at levels 22-25.

Yes the party was made of Heroes and it was still tough for them at the end of the campaign. It did not get easier on them. Why not, well they were heroes saving countries and were few of the select group individuals capable of accomplishing the task. If they were just protecting towns from armies, yes it would have been easier on them...

Other dwarves cheer!

Interesting options, high quality product, and I don't have to play 4th ed.

Maybe this will add to the confusion....

when I dm I allow evasion to apply to Shadow Dragon breath weapons...

failed save causes the loss of levels and the player loses 5 HP/neg level gained...(at least until that problem is fixed)

Why level 20? Because some find it fun to play. I haven't got to play a character from 1 to 20 because most DMs refuse to run higher than level 15. I find this very disappointing, especially after the DM implied he would run a game to level 20.

I've ran many games past level 20 and the only complaint is that each person's turn takes so long because of all their options... It is a lot of work to run a game at higher levels and the major reason why lots of highly qualified DMs refuse to play that high a level game. The last game I ran the party finished at about level 24 and never had to leave the material plane at all. In fact, when they elected to leave the material plane they were around level 12 (found a natural gate). The only other time they left is when they wanted to purchase higher priced magical items that were not found in the material plane (no combat during that excursion). So, traveling the planes is not required for playing above level 16. The downside is it takes the DM longer to plan and organize sufficient challenges for everyone in the party...

just my 2 cp.

I agree with Yerv, Epic games allow players to do truly incredible things and players have an opportunity to play with the 20th level goodies for a few levels before retirement.

I always find it aggravating to start a campaign where the DM says the game will go til 20th level and you anticipate that for many levels only to find out the games ends at level 12.

I've run many Epic level games and the players seem to enjoy themselves immensely (mainly because they never had the opportunity to play one that high before). My complaint is that every time I ran a game in epic levels before I knew it I had 10 players (that makes it tough).

Is there enough support for a year's worth of epic rules and product? Probably not, however, why not develop a smaller book with necessary rules with the understanding there would be little to no adventure path support....? I thought the devs said something like this would be way in the future if at all anyway...

Does that sound right?

If you search the forum, you've find other discussions regarding this. From what I remember: Vital Strike (and feats further along tree) cannot be used with cleave.

In another post, Cleave (chain) and Vital strike cannot be used together.

Increases in INT was not retroactive. Was this changed?

I could see the issue of acrobatics dependency being a bigger issue with 3.5 where tumbling required training in the skill, but with Pathfinder anyone can tumble now. If you match that up with the fact that you still need a decent dex for Mobility means that you are already invested in Acrobatics to some extent.

Poor logic. Just because you have a decent DEX does not mean you have invested in acrobatics. As an earlier post stated, fighters and paladins only get two skill pts/level (plus relevant racial and or Int bonuses). I would say it isn't likely acrobatics is invested in, especially considering the acrobatics penalties for heavy armor. Also as someone else said earlier, tumbling isn't automatic anymore.

Sounds like the green dragon used its breath weapon in two consecutive rounds. That doesn't seem right to me. They have to wait 1d4 rounds in between breath uses...so, if roll a one on the d4 then dragon can use breath weapon every other round.

Thanks James for the comments. I'm glad to see that Epic levels may get consideration in the future. I'm still jazzed to be playing what we have now and need to let all this newness soak in. The epic games I participated in were a blast, although they did take effort to make things challenging. I'm happy to wait to see what the designers come up with for epic play. I'm in favor of a 36th level cap for pcs (baddies +6).

I ran a game in this setting for better than a year. The players loved playing dragons and having access to their abilities. Alas this was pre-3.x. Fun times though.

I live in the mid-Atlantic region in a college town and when 4th ed was released I gave it a try. Afterwards, I seldom visited my FLGS because nothing was being published I was interested in purchasing. A player in a 3.5 game I was running introduced me to Pathfinder and after Pathfinder Core book was published, I returned to the FLGS. The owner of the store asked where I had been and I told him I wasn't interested in 4th ed. and had only recently been introduced to Pathfinder. After New Year's, I visited the FLGS to see the new Pathfinder products and the owner told me Pathfinder outsold 4th ed by more than three to one over the holidays. Thanks Paizo!

--my three cp--

Voted Dragonlance---awesome setting, but only because there was no Mystara **sniff**

I just want to get a quick response about how much time people have spent playing or DM'ing at high levels, how they got there, and why they stopped.

1) What is the highest level that you have played at for a few sessions?

2) Did the campaign start at low levels?

3) What ended the campaign?

For me, it is about 16th level as a player, and only about 7th level as a DM. The high level campaigns started at 1st level, and ended due to power differences between characters.

1) One campaign lasted until characters were 28 - 26; another campaign lasted until characters were 23; current campaign they are level 21 and still not done

Second campaign ended with the party defeating the Disciple of Asmodeus and his plans to rule the world

Current campaign is planned to end when the party defeats the Necromancer Archmage (vampire) and his Succubus Wizard ally from conquering the known world.

I'm running a game with hero points and it has gone well over the past two years. The players were told the campaign would be long lasting and they had so many re-roll pts plus so many fate (change circumstance/result) points. There are no opportunities to obtain more.

This has allowed those players who wanted to do character development or play a less min/maxed character more enjoyable. They could spend time and effort developing their character without them worrying about dying because of a bad die roll. The players also know they never have to use the points if they do not want to.

Finally, through the use of the fate points, the players adventured into dangerous areas and now recognize dangerous areas by descriptions given within the game via rumors, npcs, ancient texts, etc. Now these characters are near epic in level and when they hear rumors of a very difficult area, they know the area is actually really difficult and they prepare themselves appropriately instead of being haughty or overconfident. We still have the dramatic/cinematic scenes and the players realize death is a real possibility in their future....