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So, while I was looking through the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list of Ultimate Magic, I came across the new sixth level spell Cold Ice Strike. At first glance, I was stumped... it looked functionally exactly like the fifth level Cone of Cold. But then I saw the casting time: A swift action.
So, basically we get a Quickened Cone of Cold for one level of spellcasting. Stealth fix for blasters or errata material? With the way blasters are looked down at by min-maxers, I think "stealth fix" is more likely.
I hope I get to play an elemental/genie bloodline Sorcerer one day... it looks to be much fun with this new spell.
*edit*: The spell doesn't have spell components listed, though, so maybe there was an oversight here and we get a costly component to adjust for the cheap quickened spell effect?
I'm not sure what to think of it really. It seems like a stealth fix but in my opinion it kinda invalidates bunch of other spells of it's power level.
I'd like to see more blaster love though.
Heres the spell btw:
Cold Ice Strike
Evocation [cold]
Level: cleric 6, sorcerer/wizard 6Casting time: swift action
Range: 60 ft.
Area cone-shaped burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half; Spell resistance: yesYou create a shredding flurry of ice slivers, which blast from your hand in a cone. The cone deals 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 15d6).
That was a pathfinder srd info and I see no components listed either.
Anyway, mid-high level blasters might have suddenly become a lot better.
Remind me why I try to use metamagic again? *le sigh* To get a fireball to have a comparable effect, it would take 9 levels of metamagic: 4 quicken, 3 heighten, 1 intesified, 1 elemental. *le sigh again*
Anywho, I can see building around this spell as a Sorcerer. Spell Perfection + Dazing (or just a Rod of Dazing) and whole bunch of other stuff = win? (If you can get your enemies dazed for 6 rounds... essentially save or die?) Also, if a sorcerer applies metamagic to a spell that is naturally a swift action, it becomes full round, right? That might work to your advantage in this case, given you can't have more than one swift action each turn...
You can still trade a standard action for a swift action, though.
Do you have a rules quote for this?
Wait a minute...
Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.
For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
It says a standard action spell takes a full-round, and spells that takes longer takes an additional full-round... It doesn't mention swift, immediate, or free actions. So you can apply metamagic and it won't take longer?
Of course, why cast this spell twice when you could cast it as your swift and another spell of a different spell level as your standard anyway? Thus I think the wizard comes out ahead of the sorcerer, as usual. At 20, you can memorize Dazing Intensified Cold Ice Strike as a 9th-level spell and have a swift action 20d6 ref save for half or be dazed for 6 rounds area attack... and then still have your standard action to cast anything else you've prepared. And your move action to engage in positional tactics for self-defense.If the Sorcerer takes the feat Preferred Spell for Cold Ice Strike, then can swift action cast the spell with any meta magic placed on it and achieve the same state as the wizard, correct?
Since Cold Ice Strike is the exact same as Cone of Cold, but just one level higher and cast as a swift action, it is actually much better than quickening a level two spell ( which also don't have the area nor damage caps of Cold Ice Strike ).
Sorcerers are a smidgen disadvantaged compared to Wizards, because they won't be able to apply metamagic effects to the Cone of Cold/Cold Ice Strike combo.
Of course, why cast this spell twice when you could cast it as your swift and another spell of a different spell level as your standard anyway? Thus I think the wizard comes out ahead of the sorcerer, as usual. At 20, you can memorize Dazing Intensified Cold Ice Strike as a 9th-level spell and have a swift action 20d6 ref save for half or be dazed for 6 rounds area attack... and then still have your standard action to cast anything else you've prepared. And your move action to engage in positional tactics for self-defense.If the Sorcerer takes the feat Preferred Spell for Cold Ice Strike, then can swift action cast the spell with any meta magic placed on it and achieve the same state as the wizard, correct?Since Cold Ice Strike is the exact same as Cone of Cold, but just one level higher and cast as a swift action, it is actually much better than quickening a level two spell ( which also don't have the area nor damage caps of Cold Ice Strike ).
Sorcerers are a smidgen disadvantaged compared to Wizards, because they won't be able to apply metamagic effects to the Cone of Cold/Cold Ice Strike combo.
Like I inquired in my previous post, when a sorcerer applies metamagic to a spell that is naturally a swift action, does the casting time increase? According to rule I stated, it doesn't. Am I missing something?
You can still trade a standard action for a swift action, though.
That has to be a house rule since nowhere in Pathfinder or 3.X is that an actual rule.
They can with the Preferred Spell feat.Preferred Spell
You find it very easy to cast one particular spell.Prerequisites: Spellcraft 5 ranks, Heighten Spell.
Benefit: Choose one spell which you have the ability to cast. You can cast that spell spontaneously by sacrificing a prepared spell or spell slot of equal or higher level. You can apply any metamagic feats you possess to this spell when you cast it. This increases the minimum level of the prepared spell or spell slot you must sacrifice in order to cast it but does not affect the casting time.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.
Ah, very nice. Thanks!
You can still trade a standard action for a swift action, though.That has to be a house rule since nowhere in Pathfinder or 3.X is that an actual rule.
+1
To the OP, what do you exactly mean by a 'stealth fix'? Not trying to come across as rude, but I truly am not sure what is meant by that.
I can see where you get that it is an incentivizer to play an evoker, and i agree that it is BUT...
A spell you get at 11-12th level (rememeber those that play society cap at 12) does not help for the first 10 levels of the game so it dosent help E6 or half of an AP arc.
The first truly broken-powerful thing I've seen from Paizo. (If that's a real spell. . .)
To the OP, what do you exactly mean by a 'stealth fix'? Not trying to come across as rude, but I truly am not sure what is meant by that.
As I understand it, a "stealth fix" is usually a reference to an option in a splat book that addresses a known underpowered build or a significant weakness of certain builds. Usually the "fix" will be one or more spells, feats, or items that are particularly powerful for the build that needs to be "fixed". It's often introduced quietly and without comment, and in some cases it may not be immediately obvious what build it really helps.
I'm checking into this.
To the OP, what do you exactly mean by a 'stealth fix'? Not trying to come across as rude, but I truly am not sure what is meant by that.As I understand it, a "stealth fix" is usually a reference to an option in a splat book that addresses a known underpowered build or a significant weakness of certain builds. Usually the "fix" will be one or more spells, feats, or items that are particularly powerful for the build that needs to be "fixed". It's often introduced quietly and without comment, and in some cases it may not be immediately obvious what build it really helps.
The more I think about this spell it seems on the surface it be a boon to blasters but actually favors SOS/SOD casters in the large numbers of lower CR monsters to be speed bumps for the BBEG style encounters. Suddenly to have a swift action speed bump killer and still get to drop your big SOS on the big boss its battle field management to the Nth degree.
To the OP, what do you exactly mean by a 'stealth fix'? Not trying to come across as rude, but I truly am not sure what is meant by that.As I understand it, a "stealth fix" is usually a reference to an option in a splat book that addresses a known underpowered build or a significant weakness of certain builds. Usually the "fix" will be one or more spells, feats, or items that are particularly powerful for the build that needs to be "fixed". It's often introduced quietly and without comment, and in some cases it may not be immediately obvious what build it really helps.
Ok, thanks!
And I agree, this is a pretty broken spell. And this comes from a player who currently has a Sorcerer. Definitely won't be choosing Cone of Cold this time around if this remains to be true.
But Sean is looking into it so I guess we'll see.
To the OP, what do you exactly mean by a 'stealth fix'? Not trying to come across as rude, but I truly am not sure what is meant by that.
He´s saying it´s a ´stealth fix´ (or another Errata issue if this wasn´t intended),
because the spell is exactly the same thing as a Quickened Cone of Cold, which you can ALREADY do in the Core Rules, you would just have 1 lower a DC and need to use a 9th Level Spell Slot, or some ´free´ Meta-Magic method. So it looks like a stealth fix to him because it´s lowering the cost to do all that... And it rather invalidates that aspect of the Core Rules, because why both with quickening a Cone of Cold using a 9th level slot when this spell is available?
The first truly broken-powerful thing I've seen from Paizo. (If that's a real spell. . .)
I am not sure if it's broken but it sure does step into awesome territory. It's a huge boon, and one that might be needed (i'm not 100% positive on that though) but I am pretty sure I would not handle it this way.
We are still not certain if this is just a mistake on Paizo's part, so let's wait and see what SK Reynolds will say.
To the OP, what do you exactly mean by a 'stealth fix'? Not trying to come across as rude, but I truly am not sure what is meant by that.
Check out any Wizard/Sorcerer optimizer threads and ask which is better, an evoker or a transmuter. Blaster arcane casters are looked down upon and if ( big "if", if Sean is looking into it already ) this spell is not a misprint ( as I said, the "components" line is completely missing ), then it is a big boost to blasters.
]He´s saying it´s a ´stealth fix´ (or another Errata issue if this wasn´t intended),
because the spell is exactly the same thing as a Quickened Cone of Cold, which you can ALREADY do in the Core Rules, you would just have 1 lower a DC and need to use a 9th Level Spell Slot, or some ´free´ Meta-Magic method. So it looks like a stealth fix to him because it´s lowering the cost to do all that... And it rather invalidates that aspect of the Core Rules, because why both with quickening a Cone of Cold using a 9th level slot when this spell is available?
Well, to make some things clear, Ultimate Magic introduces several blasting spells which are more powerful than Core rulebook material. They are perhaps not invalidating any rules, but they do step on toes of previously published material. They are clearly superior to core damaging spells.
For example, there is a line of instantaneous acid area spells that deal 1d6/lvl damage +50% of dice damage in the following round(s).
I am not sure if it's broken but it sure does step into awesome territory.
Depends on your perspective. If your focus is to deal damage with a sorc/wizard/cleric (CLERIC?!), then clearly its the best thing since sliced bread.
If your focus is on keeping the game balanced, it fails.
According to the rule you quoted...
Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat....it does take longer to spontaneously cast a swift action spell when adding meta-magic, however, it is not defined how long it does take.
The increase only applies for a spell with a casting time of a standard action, which is not the case here. Empowered Cold Ice Strike is still a swift action. In fact, Empowered Summon Monster I is only a 1 round casting time as well.
For example, there is a line of instantaneous acid area spells that deal 1d6/lvl damage +50% of dice damage in the following round(s).
Sure, but that at least does something DIFFERENT than Element-Shifting a Fireball.
This isn´t different than a Quickened Cone of Cold.Given the very large amount of Errata being noticed when most people don´t even have the rules yet,
I would not at all be surprised if this is an Errata / Editing issue.
]He´s saying it´s a ´stealth fix´ (or another Errata issue if this wasn´t intended),
because the spell is exactly the same thing as a Quickened Cone of Cold, which you can ALREADY do in the Core Rules, you would just have 1 lower a DC and need to use a 9th Level Spell Slot, or some ´free´ Meta-Magic method. So it looks like a stealth fix to him because it´s lowering the cost to do all that... And it rather invalidates that aspect of the Core Rules, because why both with quickening a Cone of Cold using a 9th level slot when this spell is available?Well, to make some things clear, Ultimate Magic introduces several blasting spells which are more powerful than Core rulebook material. They are perhaps not invalidating any rules, but they do step on toes of previously published material. They are clearly superior to core damaging spells.
For example, there is a line of instantaneous acid area spells that deal 1d6/lvl damage +50% of dice damage in the following round(s).
And they are conjuration effects to boot. Although a bit strangely applied, normally Conjuration (creation) effects don't allow spell resistance and two of them do. Hm.
+1You can still trade a standard action for a swift action, though.That has to be a house rule since nowhere in Pathfinder or 3.X is that an actual rule.
Actually, you can do this within the core rules if you don't mind it being the last action of your turn.
You perform the rest of your actions, and then ready a swift action with a trivial trigger, like the sun is shining or I am in combat. The trigger immediately applies and you perform the readied (swift) action. It's technically not even your original turn anymore, so the "1 swift action per turn" rule does not apply.
You perform the rest of your actions, and then ready a swift action with a trivial trigger, like the sun is shining or I am in combat. The trigger immediately applies and you perform the readied (swift) action. It's technically not even your original turn anymore, so the "1 swift action per turn" rule does not apply.
Kudos for a simple RAW workaround.
Although not explicitly stated, it seems obvious that there's a hierarchy of action types (full round, standard, move and swift), and each can be converted into the next down or lower whenever desired. You can use a standard action to move for instance.
You perform the rest of your actions, and then ready a swift action with a trivial trigger, like the sun is shining or I am in combat. The trigger immediately applies and you perform the readied (swift) action. It's technically not even your original turn anymore, so the "1 swift action per turn" rule does not apply.Kudos for a simple RAW workaround.
Although not explicitly stated, it seems obvious that there's a hierarchy of action types (full round, standard, move and swift), and each can be converted into the next down or lower whenever desired. You can use a standard action to move for instance.
You cannot transform a standard or move action into a second swift action, like in Star Wars: Saga Edition, right? Because if you can, this would get even more broken.
Level 13 Wizard casts: Cone of Cold (Standard), Cold Ice Strike (Swift) and Quickened Fireball (Move converted to Swift).
Heh. Me likey. Though this raises the power bar for every caster that doesn't ditch evocation. Even a non-DC based caster wins by tossing off a swift action for essentially free damage. Arcane Tricksters who are at 10 can do this and get SA, then cast and get SA, then trigger Snapdragon Fireworks and get SA.
Actually with this and some nice metamagics you could really toss off this as a swift and hope to daze, then have Snapdragon Fireworks with a chance to daze, then cast your normal spell.
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
While you can downgrade actions it would be pointless because of emphasised line - with the exception of some weird hypothetical effect that would remove swift action from your action pool without at the same time actually prohibiting you from taking swift actions.
Also note that readied action comes from your per turn action pool and thus is subject to the same limit. Your action pool resets at the begining of your turn (I can't find rule like in 3.5 that counted immediate action as your swift action for the turn following the action - but it is discussion for another time).
Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.While you can downgrade actions it would be pointless because of emphasised line - with the exception of some weird hypothetical effect that would remove swift action from your action pool without at the same time actually prohibiting you from taking swift actions.
Also note that readied action comes from your per turn action pool and thus is subject to the same limit. Your action pool resets at the begining of your turn (I can't find rule like in 3.5 that counted immediate action as your swift action for the turn following the action - but it is discussion for another time).
Oof, thanks, at least one bullet averted. Now let's see if Sean comes back or if he alerted Jason and they can clear up what the deal with the spell component is... or if the spell itself was somehow strangely balanced.
We've always played where you can trade actions down... Never knew why though. Of course, until now, a swift action was never so useful that it mattered.
Nice. Magus will Love!! this spell. Let's him drop a swift MAXIMISED 15D6 through spell perfection and cast a regular chain lightning.
Sweet. Dazing spell is also.awesome.
Still damage spells would be nicer with 1/rd rider effects.
Say like the 3.5 orb spells (but make them evocation)
Any such spells in UM?
Nice. Magus will Love!! this spell. Let's him drop a swift MAXIMISED 15D6 through spell perfection and cast a regular chain lightning.
Sweet. Dazing spell is also.awesome.
Still damage spells would be nicer with 1/rd rider effects.
Say like the 3.5 orb spells (but make them evocation)
Any such spells in UM?
I wouldn't make a happy dance until Sean Reynolds comes back and says the spell is okay as written. As it is, I think it likely that there is some error with it at this time.
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I wouldn't make a happy dance until Sean Reynolds comes back and says the spell is okay as written. As it is, I think it likely that there is some error with it at this time.
+1. The fact that the line about Components is missing and the brevity of Sean's comment suggest that this spell (or at least its description) is a beta leftover that should have been edited out of the final version.
So to the OP, my guess is errata material.
My GM is actually coming over tonight and I am going to show him the PDF of the book. And will also bring up this spell.
It’s not something we are going to have to worry about for awhile in our campaign as we are all only 3rd level. I can actually see my GM not allowing it, or at least making a change to it so it is useable (without it being broken). But he will probably at least wait to see what Sean’s ruling is, first.
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So, while I was looking through the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list of Ultimate Magic, I came across the new sixth level spell Cold Ice Strike. At first glance, I was stumped... it looked functionally exactly like the fifth level Cone of Cold. But then I saw the casting time: A swift action.
So, basically we get a Quickened Cone of Cold for one level of spellcasting. Stealth fix for blasters or errata material? With the way blasters are looked down at by min-maxers, I think "stealth fix" is more likely.
I hope I get to play an elemental/genie bloodline Sorcerer one day... it looks to be much fun with this new spell.
*edit*: The spell doesn't have spell components listed, though, so maybe there was an oversight here and we get a costly component to adjust for the cheap quickened spell effect?
If you look in chapter 2 on mastering magic, there is a section on creating spells and measuring them against other spells as bench marks.
It notes that cone of cold as a fifth level spell is a low bench mark, and if you spell seems less powerful then cone of cold then it should be lvl 4.
So I think this was intentional design.
Yes, but the whole point is you are now able to cast a spell which before required a feat and it used up a 9th level spell slot.
Now, the feat is no longer needed, and it only comes out of a 6th level spell slot, to boot. So you pretty much made the Cone of Cold + Quicken Feat combination irrelevant.
It notes that cone of cold as a fifth level spell is a low bench mark, and if you spell seems less powerful then cone of cold then it should be lvl 4.
So I think this was intentional design.
4 + 4 is 8. It should be an 8th level spell by those benchmarks. And it still shouldn't be available to clerics at the same level it is available to wizards/sorcerers (unless it's part of a domain).
So maybe it's saying cone of cold should be a 4th level spell and Quicken Spell should only raise the spell slot up 2 levels. In that case, it would be wrong.
I guess the next "logical" step is a 4th level quickened fireball (smaller area + less maximum damage + more commonly resisted energy type).
So... use any other spell than Cone of Cold with your Quicken Spell feat?
Were people really using their 9th level slots for Quickened Cone of Cold? I'd think things like Time Stop, Shapechange, or Wish would get the nod over a Quickened Cone of Cold...It's not like Quicken Spell sucks. You'll still want it for every other spell in existence.
Neat spell, hope it doesn't get errata.
You are missing the point. Sure, you can use Quicken spell for any other spell than Cone of Cold, but it starts limits options and takes away the benefit of the feat when it shouldn’t.
What if this was intentional design (which I don’t think it was) and it starts to happen with more spells? How about casting Scorching Ray as a swift action using a 3rd level spell slot? Or Lightning Bolt as a 4th level spell slot? A swifted Magic Missile at 2nd level?
Why use the Quicken feat at all?
Peronally, I thought no one casts Cold of Cone much so they recognized how weak the spell was and made a better one.
Did I read that right that this is also a cleric spell???