I think the thread title is misleading and meant to provoke a reaction for attention to the rules question.
All of my threads are meant to provoke a reaction. If there was no reaction, there would be no replies to any of my threads. One must have interesting information in order to share it, otherwise, no one will give a damn and severe mechanics problems like this will never be delved into, much less fixed/solved/whatever.
I think the thread title is misleading and meant to provoke a reaction for attention to the rules question.All of my threads are meant to provoke a reaction. If there was no reaction, there would be no replies to any of my threads. One must have interesting information in order to share it, otherwise, no one will give a damn and severe mechanics problems like this will never be delved into, much less fixed/solved/whatever.
Oh dear, I didn't realize which classes this loophole was really the best for. I had been looking at the sorcerer/wizard spell list...
The summoner and inquisitor are just a bit too good with this option. Also, Chelish bards with this option would replace armies.
Perhaps this loophole bears more attention than I thought it did.
I think the thread title is misleading and meant to provoke a reaction for attention to the rules question.All of my threads are meant to provoke a reaction. If there was no reaction, there would be no replies to any of my threads. One must have interesting information in order to share it, otherwise, no one will give a damn and severe mechanics problems like this will never be delved into, much less fixed/solved/whatever.
If the mechanic problem is severe enough people will notice it, and it will get fixed anyway.
The selective spell metamagic feat is an example of one that was written badly enough before errata that it caught the eye of many people.PS:I do appreciate the efforts though except for extreme cases like the perception 0 thread. If someone can't get past that one they are beyond the help of any book, fellow player or dev.
It seems to me that the easiest fix here is that the second copy of the spell cannot have any metamagic feats applied to it.
Alternatively, the second copy cannot, specifically, have echo spell applied to it.
Its not going to be a very common occurrence right now anyway, but an infinite spell loop is something I am going to close up.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
How about ruling, that the second/echo spell has the same characteristics as the original spell excluding the echoing metamagic. Thus if you cast an echoing maximized cone of cold the second spell would be a maximized cone of cold.
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I think the thread title is misleading and meant to provoke a reaction for attention to the rules question.All of my threads are meant to provoke a reaction. If there was no reaction, there would be no replies to any of my threads. One must have interesting information in order to share it, otherwise, no one will give a damn and severe mechanics problems like this will never be delved into, much less fixed/solved/whatever.Oh dear, I didn't realize which classes this loophole was really the best for. I had been looking at the sorcerer/wizard spell list...
The summoner and inquisitor are just a bit too good with this option. Also, Chelish bards with this option would replace armies.
Perhaps this loophole bears more attention than I thought it did.
Personally if I had any 6th level spell I could cast an infinite number of days I'd go with Mage's Lucubration. Effectively gives you infinite 1-5 level spells.
Guys, the feat needs clarification or errata. I don't want 40 double-sided pages of 8 point font explaining how "The Stack" works for a single feat. I'm not playing Magic the Gathering here, I'm playing Pathfinder.
I just want them to add "The additional casting of a spell obtained through this feat cannot generate further additional casting through any means.", or whatever they feel is necessary to stop the infinite spell combo.
It is blindingly obvious that the interpretation can EASILY swing either way without going out of your way to intentionally misread a rule. Why are people acting like the suggestion that something needs clarification or errata is tantamount to that person kicking your puppy?
I think the thread title is misleading and meant to provoke a reaction for attention to the rules question.
Words like loop and unlimited don't really have any place in rules discussion, especially not for the question at hand.
You must be level 15 for this to work.
You must have chosen the echo spell feat and two other metamagic feats for this to work. It costs a total of 4 feats, which is specialization intensive.
You can pick one spell. If you pick a spell above 6th level, the combo does not work. Picking a spell below 6th level is a waste.
You must spend the casting time in order to cast the spell. A swift action at the least, so the most you could use this would be once per round, and it costs an action.
You accomplish something that replicates the effect of a magic item that would cost significantly less of an investment of your expected wealth by level to craft yourself. At higher levels you could afford to craft many of these items, and not put a dent in your fortunes.
I dunno if this combo was intended to work, but I don't think it is unbalanced, considering the cost in action economy and feat economy.
While it MAY be balanced when compared to a magic item there is INTENT. I feel the intent of the feat was to provide an extra casting of the spell, not infinite. It even states you can cast it ONE additional time per day, NOT INFINITE. I think it was pretty clear the designers only meant for it to provides ONE extra casting- period. But at what power level?
Echoing Spell:
Benefit: When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day. If you prepare spells, this second casting does not require you to prepare it in another spell slot. If you spontaneously cast spells, this second casting does not expend another available spell slot. An echoing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
First off, the echoed spell comes back but does NOTuse a spell slot on the SECOND casting. Since it does not use a spell slot you couldn't even apply metamagic feats to the second casting of an echoed spell even with perfect spell. If this was the case you could apply metamagic feats to spell like abilities, and if you could do that Paizo wouldn't have created the spell like ability feats in the first place...
There are a couple things the echoing spell fails to mention though.
Does the echoing spell come back as the base spell or the metamagic version? If it came back with meta magic it would come back as an echoed spell but would not echo again as stated in the metamagic feat- OK i understand that limitation. BUT this would be useful to know in the case of an echoing maximized fireball spell. SHOULD it be a basic fireball or a maximized fireball with a used up echo?
If the echoed spell comes back with metamagic what happens when you use metamagic rods!? If you use an empowered rod on a maximized echoing fireball you would get back an echoed maximized empowered fireball and this would effectively double your rods uses per day. You would effectively have 2 rods for the price of one.
I think as mentioned above since an echoed spell does not have a spell level that the infinite combo is out but the DEV's should also consider what i mentioned later when rewording echoing spell.
I feel the spells intent is that it's not even technically a traditional spell per say but a remnant, an echo of the real thing. And with that said it should only be allowed to cast this echo as the BASE spell.
However, maybe not to Nerf it completely either allow it to:
A) come back as the metamagic version but bar the feat from allowing rods- which seems odd and complex.
B) OR allow rods to work normally but you only get the base spell back as the echo. This would allow you to use a rod on the second casting but it wouldn't give you 2 rods for the price of one.
As the feat is worded now the echoing spell would not be bared from applying a rod on the second casting as a rod does not require the spell to use a spell slot. So it's already allowed to to be used with rods. Echoing spell is going to need some VERY careful word changes to it lol. I think option B would be fair....
While it MAY be balanced when compared to a magic item there is INTENT. I feel the intent of the feat was to provide an extra casting of the spell, not infinite
I agree. I already espressed that I think this was the intent. Just look at the feat name: ECHO.
First off, the echoed spell comes back but does NOTuse a spell slot on the SECOND casting. Since it does not use a spell slot you couldn't even apply metamagic feats to the second casting of an echoed spell even with perfect spell. If this was the case you could apply metamagic feats to spell like abilities, and if you could do that Paizo wouldn't have created the spell like ability feats in the first place...
Yes. As I've already written, in the Ravingdork interpretation, spontaneous spellcasters would also be able to apply echo spell first, and then cast the spell again with different metamagic feats applied. That would not be an echo.
If the echoed spell comes back with metamagic what happens when you use metamagic rods!?
Good question! :)
I'd say: It could go both ways. The feat "self create" an echo of the original spell cast. The first cast is spent as normal.The echo can be spent as a second identical cast of the original spell and the echo is of course destroyed in the process.
It's like the spell caster is actually casting the same spell twice, with the second casting delayed until later.
So you could say that if the first cast was meta-magicked with a rod, the second cast would be too. On the other side, you could argue that the meta magic rods act after the feat is echoing the spell and so the echo would not have the meta magic effect on it.
Just my 2c.
First RuneBladeX, I agree with you that the intent of the feat (insofar as the infinite loop is concerned) is fairly obvious.
First off, the echoed spell comes back but does NOT use a spell slot on the SECOND casting. Since it does not use a spell slot you couldn't even apply metamagic feats to the second casting of an echoed spell even with perfect spell.
However, this statement is dead wrong. Spell Perfection does not require spell slots at all. All it requires is that you cast the spell, which the text in echo spell makes clear: you ARE casting the spell a second time.
If this was the case you could apply metamagic feats to spell like abilities, and if you could do that Paizo wouldn't have created the spell like ability feats in the first place...
Again, not the case. You cast spells. You activate spell-like abilities. It's not the same thing. That's why you can't perfect a spell-like ability or apply metamagic to them without special feats specifically designed for spell-like abilities.
There are a couple things the echoing spell fails to mention though.
Does the echoing spell come back as the base spell or the metamagic version? If it came back with meta magic it would come back as an echoed spell but would not echo again as stated in the metamagic feat- OK i understand that limitation. BUT this would be useful to know in the case of an echoing maximized fireball spell. SHOULD it be a basic fireball or a maximized fireball with a used up echo?
I think this is a big part of the problem. Hopefully errata will resolve it without also neutering the feats intended benefits.
If the echoed spell comes back with metamagic what happens when you use metamagic rods!? If you use an empowered rod on a maximized echoing fireball you would get back an echoed maximized empowered fireball and this would effectively double your rods uses per day. You would effectively have 2 rods for the price of one.
That is slightly abusive. Good catch! (All it really does is save you money though.)
I think as mentioned above since an echoed spell does not have a spell level that the infinite combo is out but the DEV's should also consider what i mentioned later when rewording echoing spell.
Of course an echoed spell has a spell level. Why wouldn't it? You have to determine whether or not it's going to get through those globes of invulnerability somehow.
I feel the spells intent is that it's not even technically a traditional spell per say but a remnant, an echo of the real thing. And with that said it should only be allowed to cast this echo as the BASE spell.
The flavor text of it supports your conclusion of intent, but I disagree that, that should mean it leaves you with the base spell only. Nevertheless, it wouldn't be a bad ruling (official or otherwise).
First RuneBladeX, I agree with you that the intent of the feat (insofar as the infinite loop is concerned) is fairly obvious.
First off, the echoed spell comes back but does NOT use a spell slot on the SECOND casting. Since it does not use a spell slot you couldn't even apply metamagic feats to the second casting of an echoed spell even with perfect spell.However, this statement is dead wrong. Spell Perfection does not require spell slots at all. All it requires is that you cast the spell, which the text in echo spell makes clear: you ARE casting the spell a second time.
while i'm not trying to start an argument RD i don't think i'm "wrong" anymore than you are. It's my interpretation vs yours. while i can understand your interpretation i dont think it has any more weight that mine. here's why i interpreted it as so.
Spell perfection:
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
I think the feat very clearly implies that it needs the caster to posses spell slots. If it didnt you could use spell perfection on spell like abilities too, and the requirements would read at least three metamagic feats OR spell like ability feats., but they don't.
Now i will defend your side of it. you could interpret spell perfection to apply to the echoing of a spell because echoing spell clearly states that the spell does not use a spell slot at all and technically would not use a 9th level slot because it doesn't use any slot. Now notice spell perfection says 9th level slot and NOT 9th level spell. This means even in the case of casting the echoing of a flesh to stone spell the echo would come back as an echoed flesh to stone with the echo used up and would be the equivalent of a 9th level spell but posses no actual spell slot. Now it gets messy and overpowered. Since the echoed flesh to stone uses no spell slot and when you cast this echoed flesh to stone you could apply say quicken spell to it via spell perfection. This would make it equivalent to a 13th level spell but it would still not even have a spell slot at all so would be legal under "does not use a spell slot above 9th level" spell perfection wording!!!!
so i take your can of worms "CAN o'infinite combo" which i think we have both agreed does not work and hand you a CRATE of worms!
after delving deeper into the matter i think we have brought up more issues than we have solved LMAO!
If this was the case you could apply metamagic feats to spell like abilities, and if you could do that Paizo wouldn't have created the spell like ability feats in the first place...Again, not the case. You cast spells. You activate spell-like abilities. It's not the same thing. That's why you can't perfect a spell-like ability or apply metamagic to them without special feats specifically designed for spell-like abilities.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities function just like spells, but are granted through a special racial ability or by a specific class ability (as opposed to spells, which are gained by spellcasting classes as a character gains levels).
I think Paizo has made spell like abilities more like actual spells more than ever. It could even be argued that because an spell echo uses no spell slot and is not gained per the (as opposed to spells, which are gained by spellcasting classes as a character gains levels)wording that an echoing spell is more like a spell-like ability than an actual spell. Actually it even appears that paizo inadvertently created a completely NEW type of spell class.
Spell-like ability, spell, and now a spell echo.
And while i'm not completely in agreement with your interpretation im not really in agreement with my own interpretation either. i was simply throwing out some interpretations that others might bring up so we can get everything on the table now that the developers are aware of this. Actually i think maybe Echoing spell AND spell perfection should be reworded. Developers must really hate posters like us RD lol!
Spell perfection should probably be reworded to-
Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell uses a minimum of a 1st level spell slot but does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
while this would make it so you couldn't use perfect spells for 0 level spells i don't think anyone in there right mind would want to take a 0 level spell as a perfect spell. also i don't feel o level spells are really spells anyways, there cantrips :)
This still leaves open a few questions about spell perfection however. when you use spell perfection what counts as the spell? would it only be flesh to stone if taken as your perfect spell or any metamagic version? Could you take echoing flesh to stone as a perfect spell instead of the base flesh to stone if the first is correct?
This thread has really turned out to be quite intriguing...
But you have to remember as well that a good majority play this game for fun and do not try to use and abuse every rule in the game to try to destroy the game for others. I would hope that most would see a feat/spell combo like that as game breaking and disallow it, but honestly from a lot of posts I have read on this board that would be a commonplace spell/feat combo for a lot of people.I would like to point out that the two viewpoints are not mutually exclusive, and to present them them as such is either ignorant, narrowminded, or an oversight. I think everyone here is mature, educated, and openminded enough to recognize that there are hundreds of legitimate reasons that people play the game, and it cannot be narrowed down to the old "Powergamer vs Roleplayer" stigma. Therefore I will assume that this comment was an oversight.
I for one would like to thank Ravingdork for doing such a great job of find, and pointing out oversights that the publishers have missed. I suspect that this a welcome occurence by them. They are a business that relys on good product to stay profitable, and his participation on these boards helps them keep their products at the high level of quality we have come to expect.
Actually a lot of his post are nitpicky and he is trying to game the system at times.
There is a difference between "hey devs you need to rewrite this because it is not clear" and "look at the exploit I found :)".Check the VoP monk thread for a good example.
PS:I have nothing against him personally, and if he is point out an exploit then he should just say so instead of presenting it as a belief.
Don't metamagic feats require you to use up a spell slot? I believe they all say a (insert metamagic) spell uses up a spell slot blah, blah, blah. In Echoing Spell, the 2nd casting does not use up a spell slot, so it cannot be metamagic'd.
What are the instances where you can use metamagic without using a spell slot?
Don't metamagic feats require you to use up a spell slot? I believe they all say a (insert metamagic) spell uses up a spell slot blah, blah, blah. In Echoing Spell, the 2nd casting does not use up a spell slot, so it cannot be metamagic'd.
What are the instances where you can use metamagic without using a spell slot?
The combination does not work by the rules, but it could be read that way and lead to a rules debate*. Your idea on how the 2nd casting does not really use up a slot is why it does not work.
*if someone is trying to game the system, IMO.
I'm surprised that there hasn't been any apparent errata or FAQ for this yet.
Anyone hear of anything more aside from what's in this thread?
I have a summoner (synthesist) with Spell Perfection (dimension door) whose going to be spamming it with her new Dimensional Dervish/Savant feats...unless the loop gets closed.
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*le sigh* Us min/max-ers are a little too good at what we do. Maybe Paizo should hire some of us on as editors. ;)
No, maybe people should just use the rule of reason. Is that reasonable? No. Therefore, the most reasonable interpretation is the proper one.
Min/maxing is the process of finding ACTUAL advantages that work together.
This is not an actual advantage. It's a misinterpretation, or I should say your selective interpretation. That's not min/maxing.
I'm surprised that there hasn't been any apparent errata or FAQ for this yet.
Anyone hear of anything more aside from what's in this thread?
I have a summoner (synthesist) with Spell Perfection (dimension door) whose going to be spamming it with her new Dimensional Dervish/Savant feats...unless the loop gets closed.
There is a difference between a rule that is written to be abused, and one that "anyone looking for a loophole" could abuse. This rule is ok as written because it takes some very bad interpreting to try to use it that way. I would actually think the player was trying to game the system.
Hey there folks,
Upon first reading, this is a very good combo. We are looking into it and may need to add this one to the FAQ. Seeing as Spell Perfection requires you to be at least 15th level, I think we are going to look at this for a bit before deciding one way or the other. This is what you get with a game with hundreds and hundreds of parts that can be combined in a near infinite number of ways. You fine folks are going to catch bits like this a lot faster than us (owing to the fact that there are thousands of you).
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We will figure it out. My first impression is that we may need to alter Echo Spell just a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Actually there's little need to change the wording; you merely need to break out the curmudgeon's compendium of excruciatingly correct grammar.
A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.
When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day.
It does not say that you can cast another identical another time, it says you can cast THAT spell one additional time. THAT spell already had echoing applied to it; you cannot apply echoing to something that already has echoing. This makes intuitive sense for prepared casters and some sense for spontaneous casters.
/thread
This makes me think of the (more recent) Whirlwind Attack+Quick Bull Rush thread. There's not enough 'RAW evidence' to convince the people who want to use this combo. Despite Jason's post that makes it obvious that this is NOT the intended use of these feats, the discussion is still carrying on.
So, now knowing that this is not RAI, the OP insists that RAW doesn't disallow it and claims he's going to be using it until it's fixed...? Bad form, RavingDork.
Still i think that the loophole must be closed.
I don't think that an errata is neccesary, a simple FAQ addition should be enough.
so from your last paragraph If you are suggesting that cant apply echo is because it already has echo. then when you cast it again it already has echo as its metamagic effect so wouldnt that allow it to keep going in a loop?Hey there folks,
Upon first reading, this is a very good combo. We are looking into it and may need to add this one to the FAQ. Seeing as Spell Perfection requires you to be at least 15th level, I think we are going to look at this for a bit before deciding one way or the other. This is what you get with a game with hundreds and hundreds of parts that can be combined in a near infinite number of ways. You fine folks are going to catch bits like this a lot faster than us (owing to the fact that there are thousands of you).
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We will figure it out. My first impression is that we may need to alter Echo Spell just a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingActually there's little need to change the wording; you merely need to break out the curmudgeon's compendium of excruciatingly correct grammar.
A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can't apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day.It does not say that you can cast another identical another time, it says you can cast THAT spell one additional time. THAT spell already had echoing applied to it; you cannot apply echoing to something that already has echoing. This makes intuitive sense for prepared casters and some sense for spontaneous casters.
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Let me explain more clearly, it sometimes helps to draw things back more to the real world. Imagine if the spell were like an arrow inside a quiver. When you draw the arrow, you go apply echoing spell to it. When you launch the arrow, you still have that particular arrow. Echoing only lets you send out one "phantom" arrow. Since you have already applied echoing to this particular arrow, you cannot apply it again to launch another phantom arrow. Loop is shutdown. You just kinda have to invert your interpretation to echoing launches an echo of the spell instead of making the spell echo.
Still i think that the loophole must be closed.
I don't think that an errata is neccesary, a simple FAQ addition should be enough.
Agreed. I brought it up cause I didn't want them to forget about it.
Four months later and if I'm not mistaken, this combo is still perfectly legal.
Did you guys change your mind on shutting it down?
Four months later and if I'm not mistaken, this combo is still perfectly legal.
Did you guys change your mind on shutting it down?
Gotta love progress. Though this is only more proof of why i ask my players if their new build is from an RD thread.
You missed the point entirely RD. I wasn't changing NPCs. I was making a point to the players that I'm ok with whatever cheese they want to bring to the game, but if they bring limburger, they better like eating and smelling it.I love this quote. :)
I've always DMed in the spirit of this quote.
If players want to exploit rules and try to one up the DM, then turnabout is fair play. I've always believed the best lessons are learned by those burned by the fire. I often have my players asking me to house rule something because they hate dealing with it when the build is used against them.
It seems to me that the easiest fix here is that the second copy of the spell cannot have any metamagic feats applied to it.
Alternatively, the second copy cannot, specifically, have echo spell applied to it.
Its not going to be a very common occurrence right now anyway, but an infinite spell loop is something I am going to close up.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I like the alternative. Not being able to apply metamagic feats to the second casting unfairly restricts the casters, while not allowing the second casting to be Echoed again seems like the best way to close the loop while still keeping a +3 level metamagic feat attractive.
Four months later and if I'm not mistaken, this combo is still perfectly legal.
Did you guys change your mind on shutting it down?
Hopefully they have a big errata list Sean K. Reynolds will eventually get around to when he does one of his FAQ flurries.
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I've always taken this feat to indicate that it creates a special 'echo' of the original spell which works outside the normal 'spell slots' system (hence all the stuff about it not taking up a slot). You can re-use an exact copy of the original spell, minus the meta-magic which created the echo. Since you are releasing a captured echo rather than casting the spell normally, you can't perform the additional words/gestures/mystical concentrations/whatever to modify it with meta-magic like you would when casting 'from scratch'. No, that isn't explicitly stated, but it clearly seems to be the intent and is no less viable an interpretation of the written description than the 'infinite recasting' view. The RAW explicitly state you can re-use the effect once. I'd rule that if there were an exception to that it would have to be just as explicitly stated. You're trying to create a 'RAW' exception, in contradiction of the clear RAI, by assuming things not actually stated (e.g. that the echo can be modified by meta-magic). That isn't really RAW... it's an assumption that something works because the text merely implies otherwise.
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Or, if we want to be excessively literal... echoing spell, like all other meta-magic feats, states that it uses up a spell slot X levels higher than the spell being cast. So... you cast Magic Missile with echoing spell attached. It creates the normal 1st level effect, uses up a 4th level spell slot, and creates a copy of the spell. You then cast that copy and apply echoing spell to it... which uses up ANOTHER 4th level spell slot, exactly as per the written description of echoing spell. Essentially, you've created the ability to cast spells using up spell slots 3 levels higher than normal... and then have one extra casting free at the end.
The essential flaw in your re-invention of the feat is that it assumes 'free meta-magic'. That is, you can cast Magic Missile as a 4th level echoed spell and then you can throw every kind of meta-magic you can think of onto the echo and it doesn't cost a thing... but that directly violates the text of the various meta-magic feats which explicitly say that they use up spell slots. The echo by itself doesn't use up a slot, but if you go applying meta-magic to it (though I don't think that is even intended to be possible) those feats explicitly DO use up spell slots.
Looks like it was finally shut down.
Echoing Spell (Metamagic)
You have learned how to release most, but not all, of a spell's potential when you cast it.
Benefit: When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day. No effect that allows you to reprepare or recast a spell can affect the echoed spell. If you prepare spells, this second casting does not require you to prepare it in another spell slot. If you spontaneously cast spells, this second casting does not expend another available spell slot. An echoing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
That's another one for team Ravingdork! :D
...
However, this makes me wonder, can I still apply other metamagic feats to the echoed spell? I don't see anything preventing it?
It looks as though I could throw out a hum drum echoed flesh to stone, using a 6th-level spell slot thanks to Spell Perfection, then when I cast it's copy, spontaneously add Quicken Spell to it for free (keeping its effective metamagic cost down with traits) in order to get it out in the same round.
There's no more infinite loop, but getting the equivalent of a 9th and 10th-level spell slot out in one round for the price of only ONE 6th-level spell slot is still not bad at all...