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You missed the point entirely RD. I wasn't changing NPCs. I was making a point to the players that I'm ok with whatever cheese they want to bring to the game, but if they bring limburger, they better like eating and smelling it.
I love this quote. :)
Spell Perfection feat + Echo Spell metamagic feat = unlimited casting of my perfected spell while using up only one spell slot of its normal level.
I think I'm going to enjoy this book. My 15th-level halfling sorcerer can now use Flesh to Stone an infinate number of times per day. Her limited spell slots was the only thing keeping her halfway sane.
I think the intent is to allow you to cast the spell twice using only one slot, not infinite casting. It is king of like that complete arcane feat "twin casting" expect you get more control of when the 2nd casting takes place.
note:Benefit: When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day.
Then it goes on to tell you more about how it does not use a second slot for a prepared or spontaneous caster.
edit: You are effectively using one slot to cast the spell twice. Once you cast it the first time the slot is spent, but the feat allows you to cast it again anyway. Notice that it says the 2nd casting does not spend a slot. That means the slot was spent on the first casting.
Please do not mistake my intentions. My ultimate goal of posting things like this is ALWAYS to bring it the the developers' attention, as well as the attention of the roleplaying community. How everyone decides to proceed from there is entirely up to them.
In any case, I do admit that I enjoy finding such combos.
You said "I think I'm going to enjoy this book. My 15th-level halfling sorcerer can now use Flesh to Stone an infinate number of times per day. Her limited spell slots was the only thing keeping her halfway sane."
How else is it going to be taken? I actually thought you were serious also. There was no emoticon to indicate that you were joking.
You missed the point entirely RD. I wasn't changing NPCs. I was making a point to the players that I'm ok with whatever cheese they want to bring to the game, but if they bring limburger, they better like eating and smelling it.
I could just outright ban something, and I have in the past. I'd much rather just make the point to the players that we can have a nice game where everyone has fun and there's no arms race, or we can have an arms race, which as GM I will always win, due to unlimited resources.
How you managed to misconstrue that, I don't know. But hopefully this set you straight. If not, oh well, there's plenty of people on here who bald face lie about what I post to my face, I'm not going to let someone's inability to understand a post get me all hot and bothered, even if they do post something personally insulting in response.
I have a similiar method in my game...I call it the MAD solution. As in Mutual Assured Destruction.
Though usualy it is for things that I don't mind once in a awhile in case of emergency...but if they bring out some combo...or etc that is really poerful everytime they see a ant...my players know they are going to start facing it themselves soo.
But the above cheese...it is not even RAW leagle as I already pointed out...so I don't need to use the MAD solution here.
Please do not mistake my intentions. My ultimate goal of posting things like this is ALWAYS to bring it the the developers' attention, as well as the attention of the roleplaying community. How everyone decides to proceed from there is entirely up to them.
In any case, I do admit that I enjoy finding such combos.
You said "I think I'm going to enjoy this book. My 15th-level halfling sorcerer can now use Flesh to Stone an infinate number of times per day. Her limited spell slots was the only thing keeping her halfway sane."
How else is it going to be taken? I actually thought you were serious also. There was no emoticon to indicate that you were joking.
You expected something less from The Ravingdork?
My halfling sorcerer has only seen play in playtests (a GM challenged me one night when I was bragging about her). She will likely never see play in a real game precisely because it would ruin the fun of the other players and cause the game to degenerate into an arms race with the GM.
I'm all for powerful, near broken combos (provided they are allowed by the RAW), but not at the expense of the fun of others at my table. I can be a crude min/maxer, but I do have some principles: namely that I never cheat under any circumstances and that I don't knowingly take any action that might make the game less fun for myself or others. I've even voluntarily removed myself from games that I really enjoyed, because I came to realize that my playstyle conflicted with the other members of the group, and that my presence was hurting their fun.
However, if a GM allowed it, and the other players didn't have any problem with me having a character that could potentially kill a single threat each round, pretty much automatically, with an unlimited number of uses, you can bet your butt I would give this character a go in a real game.
Since that hasn't happened yet, however, she is little more than a thought exercise, right along with about a dozen other extremely twinked characters I have on file (have you seen my human fighter who can out-melee the Tarrasque more often than not?). It gives me something to focus on when trying to find these rules abuses for you, the gaming community, and the game developers, to deal with as you please.
Does that help to clear up a few things?
Does that help to clear up a few things?
Please do not mistake my intentions. My ultimate goal of posting things like this is ALWAYS to bring it the the developers' attention, as well as the attention of the roleplaying community. How everyone decides to proceed from there is entirely up to them.
In any case, I do admit that I enjoy finding such combos.
You said "I think I'm going to enjoy this book. My 15th-level halfling sorcerer can now use Flesh to Stone an infinate number of times per day. Her limited spell slots was the only thing keeping her halfway sane."
How else is it going to be taken? I actually thought you were serious also. There was no emoticon to indicate that you were joking.
I believed you the first time you clarified yourself. I was just pointing out that you seemed surprised by the reaction your statement got, and I was surprised that you were surprised.
Girls girls! You're all pretty.
Back to the topic:
I don't think the loophole exists, because: if you did not use the "combo", but just look at the base possibility of a wizard casting an echoing fireball (prepared as normal as a level 6 spell). Once he casts it for the first time, he retains the spell for a second casting. It still is an echoing fireball the second time around though, but it is "aware" of its state and can only be cast once more.
The same logic applies to a spell-perfected echoing fireball. The spell is "aware" that it is the second casting and essentially ignores the echoing quality. Even if the echoing quality is "added" anew with spell perfection.
Girls girls! You're all pretty.
Back to the topic:
I don't think the loophole exists, because: if you did not use the "combo", but just look at the base possibility of a wizard casting an echoing fireball (prepared as normal as a level 6 spell). Once he casts it for the first time, he retains the spell for a second casting. It still is an echoing fireball the second time around though, but it is "aware" of its state and can only be cast once more.
The same logic applies to a spell-perfected echoing fireball. The spell is "aware" that it is the second casting and essentially ignores the echoing quality. Even if the echoing quality is "added" anew with spell perfection.
I followed this exact logic about half way.
It's logical to believe that metamagic on an echo spell does NOT carry over to the second casting. If it did, than echo would carry over as well and you would have an infinite loope even without Spell Perfection.
That can't possibly be the intent of the game designers.
As such, it is reasonable to believe that the second casting of the echoed spell is pure, without metamgic of any kind. Then we add it back in using Spell Perfection, which we can use any time we cast a perfected spell.
Hence, the infinite loop.
Even if you don't agree with that logic, surely some of you guys must at least think it unclear enough to warrant official clarification/errata, no?
Of course metamagic follows over to the second casting. A maximized echoed fireball is still a maximized echoed fireball the second time around. The "echoing" quality is self-aware and knows its "state" (that being the second casting).
Your logic is correct if you assume that metamagic gets stripped from the spell - but that isn't the case.
Girls girls! You're all pretty.
Back to the topic:
I don't think the loophole exists, because: if you did not use the "combo", but just look at the base possibility of a wizard casting an echoing fireball (prepared as normal as a level 6 spell). Once he casts it for the first time, he retains the spell for a second casting. It still is an echoing fireball the second time around though, but it is "aware" of its state and can only be cast once more.
The same logic applies to a spell-perfected echoing fireball. The spell is "aware" that it is the second casting and essentially ignores the echoing quality. Even if the echoing quality is "added" anew with spell perfection.
I followed this exact logic about half way.
It's logical to believe that metamagic on an echo spell does NOT carry over to the second casting. If it did, than echo would carry over as well and you would have an infinite loope even without Spell Perfection.
That can't possibly be the intent of the game designers.
As such, it is reasonable to believe that the second casting of the echoed spell is pure, without metamgic of any kind. Then we add it back in using Spell Perfection, which we can use any time we cast a perfected spell.
Hence, the infinite loop.
Even if you don't agree with that logic, surely some of you guys must at least think it unclear enough to warrant official clarification/errata, no?
Nope. I think like any other rule a player can try to rules lawyer it into something different, but it is clear. You are arguing that because the slot is not being adjusted that that no metamagic is being applied. The slot not being adjust does not mean no metamagic is being applied. The feat clearly says one additional time from that one slot. Even if no adjustment meant no alteration then the issue is the both first and second casting have the limit of one additional casting for that one slot. You can try to make the second casting get an extra spell if you want, but at the casting of the 2nd spell that slot is completely used up. There really is no logical way to get around it. Any attempt to get around that is just looking for a loophole. I don't think legalese should be required to play the game. The intent is quiet clear, which is all most of us care about. I don't expect RAW to be written so nobody can find a loophole. GM's can cover things like that. Now if the rule was not written well enough that most of us could not agree on it, such as the extra spell feat from 3.5 then I might agree.
Of course metamagic follows over to the second casting. A maximized echoed fireball is still a maximized echoed fireball the second time around. The "echoing" quality is self-aware and knows its "state" (that being the second casting).
Though I may continue playing devil's advocate to the contrary, I think I like this interpretation best. It's simple.
Of course metamagic follows over to the second casting. A maximized echoed fireball is still a maximized echoed fireball the second time around. The "echoing" quality is self-aware and knows its "state" (that being the second casting).Though I may continue playing devil's advocate to the contrary, I think I like this interpretation best. It's simple.
This is one time I am not hitting the FAQ button. I see no need to. If a GM gets burned with this one, unless he is new to the game, I feel no pity for him.
about the one additional casting thing, yes when you echo a spell you can cast it one additional time, when you echo it again you get to cast it one additional time, hence the infinite loop as long as your expending an echo whenever you want another casting.
As for it being aware of itself, that seems like fluff logic that isn't even shown mechanically. Probably should be though.
I was making a point to the players that I'm ok with whatever cheese they want to bring to the game, but if they bring limburger, they better like eating and smelling it.
LOL!!
You are my new god.
ok maybe it's because im really tired but i got lost at spell perfection LMAO!
Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
can somebody explain this too me? is it referring to what the spell would normally be metamagiced up in level too before considering Spell perfection? because it says before that, that it doesn't increase the spell level and i got confused...
almost everyone's been sitting around slackjawed for months waiting for the book to come out because they don't have the time or inclination to come up with new metamagic feats on their own, ya? :D
Hey, I resemble that!
:D
It's logical to believe that metamagic on an echo spell does NOT carry over to the second casting. If it did, than echo would carry over as well and you would have an infinite loope even without Spell Perfection.That can't possibly be the intent of the game designers.
As such, it is reasonable to believe that the second casting of the echoed spell is pure, without metamgic of any kind. Then we add it back in using Spell Perfection, which we can use any time we cast a perfected spell.
Hence, the infinite loop.
Even if you don't agree with that logic, surely some of you guys must at least think it unclear enough to warrant official clarification/errata, no?
I get that you think that an echoed spell, being normally memorized on a higher level slot, is in a special state before casting. That special state is lost after the first casting, so normally only a second cast would be allowed.
With spell perfection, you apply this special state only during casting, and so you could repeat the process over and over again on the original spell that is sitting in its normal spell slot, unaware that is going to be echoed upon cast.That does not match RAI and description. At least, I think, since I do not own the book yet.
If things were as such you are describing, then the result of casting an echoed spell would be always a spell slot with the original spell still there, which opens a can of worms, and spell perfection is only one them. Any class that can apply "on the fly" modifications of any type to a spell would be able to cast the same spells (at least) 2 times with different conditions. That's not an echo!
No. An "echo" of the spell is created in your memory, which can be released later. the description say the original spell is "not entirely" lost from memory, it's not the same as having the original spell slot with the original spell still on it.
Removing any interpretation and just trying to apply mechanic to D&D will bring its doom as a game, IMO. You can't be perfect with RAW, unless you write rules with the language of simbolic logic and axiomatic set theory and even that could be debated (legalese? not enough, there are judges and tribunals because even written Law can not always be interepreted unambiguously).
Cheers
You missed the point entirely RD. I wasn't changing NPCs. I was making a point to the players that I'm ok with whatever cheese they want to bring to the game, but if they bring limburger, they better like eating and smelling it.I love this quote. :)
I don't see why we can't have both....
But yeah, Paizo: do both.
Both would be awesome.
Ultimately any project is going to be a compromise of priorities and for me is flavor/ fun wins over lawyer friendly by a long yard. I can ignore ridiculous or obviously broken rules, what I cannot do is put together a book like Ultimate Magic that has tons of awesome stuff.
Well as apparently when rules aren't written clearly certain developers opt to go to their Facebook page and make snide comments about the community for apparently pointing out perceived (I make no assertions about any fact) shortcomings or issues with new rules, then yes they should spend a smidge more time coming closer to both. Nothing wrong with the Fluff intro to feats/rule that SKR has spoken of in the past it is vital and vibrant but when you drop a book and in less that 48 hours an edit of this nature crops up then you need more specificity.
edit: unless of course the developers WANT to keep forum views up and posts coming in to amuse themselves with our arguments.
Here's how I'm seeing it:
- Have Spell Perfection: Fireball
- Cast Fireball
- Use Spell Perfection to add "Echo" feat to Fireball.
Now, courtesy of Spell Perfection, I'm casting an Echoed Fireball, but it's still a 3rd Level Spell. I retain a memory of "Echoed Fireball", courtesy of the effects of the Echo ability.
At this point, when I cast my Echoed Fireball, one of two things will happen:
1. Spell Perfection lets me apply another feat to "Echoed Fireball"... I could maximize, empower, silent, or apply any other metamagic feat to this spell. I cannot apply Echo again, because you can't put a metamagic feat on a spell more than once.
2. Spell Perfection does not apply, because I have Spell Perfection: Fireball, not Spell Perfection: Echoed Fireball.
Thoughts? I think I'd be willing to allow option 1, because it's a good combination, and the player had to spend significant character resources to make it happen.
Here's how I'm seeing it:
- Have Spell Perfection: Fireball
- Cast Fireball
- Use Spell Perfection to add "Echo" feat to Fireball.Now, courtesy of Spell Perfection, I'm casting an Echoed Fireball, but it's still a 3rd Level Spell. I retain a memory of "Echoed Fireball", courtesy of the effects of the Echo ability.
At this point, when I cast my Echoed Fireball, one of two things will happen:
1. Spell Perfection lets me apply another feat to "Echoed Fireball"... I could maximize, empower, silent, or apply any other metamagic feat to this spell. I cannot apply Echo again, because you can't put a metamagic feat on a spell more than once.
2. Spell Perfection does not apply, because I have Spell Perfection: Fireball, not Spell Perfection: Echoed Fireball.
Thoughts? I think I'd be willing to allow option 1, because it's a good combination, and the player had to spend significant character resources to make it happen.
Interpretation #1 has been proposed by enough people that I think it is "the common view." It also lets you benefit from both feats without letting things get too crazy (after all, on the second casting, it it already has echo on it, but is "self aware" like some people describe, than it is "effectively" a 6th-level slot as far as Spell Perfection is concerned, and so you could only apply a single +2 level metamagic to it with Spell Perfection (since there is a 9th-level limit). Benefiting from both without getting too crazy makes this interpretation kinda cool I think.
Still, I don't buy this self aware nonsense though. It's not even hinted at anywhere in the text.
Interpretation #1 has been proposed by enough people that I think it is "the common view." It also lets you benefit from both feats without letting things get too crazy (after all, on the second casting, it it already has echo on it, but is "self aware" like some people describe, than it is "effectively" a 6th-level slot as far as Spell Perfection is concerned, and so you could only apply a single +2 level metamagic to it with Spell Perfection (since there is a 9th-level limit). Benefiting from both without getting too crazy makes this interpretation kinda cool I think.
Still, I don't buy this self aware nonsense though. It's not even hinted at anywhere in the text.
I'm not saying that a spell is "self aware". My take on this is that, due to Spell Perfection, the 3rd level spell that was cast is actually "Echoed Fireball". I don't think that it can be echoed again, because the spell that gets recast is already "Echoed Fireball"... It could be made into "Echoed Silent Fireball" through another use of Spell Perfection, but since it's already Echoed, it can't Echo again.
I would think that, if you wanted to get extra cheesy, a wizard would memorize the spell with Echo (taking up a higher slot), then start stacking metamagic feats using Spell Perfection
- 1st Casting: Echoed Magic Missile (4th Level). Add Maximized metamagic.
- 2nd Casting: Echoed Maximized Magic Missile (7th Level). Add Silent metamagic.
Director of Game Design
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Hey there folks,
Upon first reading, this is a very good combo. We are looking into it and may need to add this one to the FAQ. Seeing as Spell Perfection requires you to be at least 15th level, I think we are going to look at this for a bit before deciding one way or the other. This is what you get with a game with hundreds and hundreds of parts that can be combined in a near infinite number of ways. You fine folks are going to catch bits like this a lot faster than us (owing to the fact that there are thousands of you).
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We will figure it out. My first impression is that we may need to alter Echo Spell just a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
you are talking about an ability that can only really be exploited when the PCs can already cast 9th level spells.
there are far worse things to worry about than a cleric that can cast heal all day.
Somebody Forked your Time Walk, eh?
Hey there folks,
Upon first reading, this is a very good combo. We are looking into it and may need to add this one to the FAQ. Seeing as Spell Perfection requires you to be at least 15th level, I think we are going to look at this for a bit before deciding one way or the other. This is what you get with a game with hundreds and hundreds of parts that can be combined in a near infinite number of ways. You fine folks are going to catch bits like this a lot faster than us (owing to the fact that there are thousands of you).
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. We will figure it out. My first impression is that we may need to alter Echo Spell just a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
There probably does need to be some changing, but please, PLEASE, don't overnerf it!
Many of the proposals in this thread are perfectly fine.
I can see what RD is talking about.
You cast the Spell with the Echoed Spell Metamagic applied to it. The Echoed Spell is expended but you have another available casting of the spell you just used but it is no longer considered echoed.
Next round you cast the spell regained from Echoed Spell. Due to the spell being selected for Spell Perfection it is stipulated in the feat that you can apply a Metamagic that you know of for free.
You choose Echoed Spell, the effect of the Metamagic lets you regain the spell again. Spell Perfection is a trigger that occurs every time you cast the Spell chosen for the feat.
Is it cheesy? Sure it is.
If someone could point out the actual wording for the exclusion that'd be great too so i can thwart this combo before my Sorcerer gets a hold of it.
Sorry to break topic, but I'm not a messageboards-Jedi yet...
What does RAW and RAI mean? Is is "Rules As Written" and "Rules As Interpretted?"
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Director of Game Design
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It seems to me that the easiest fix here is that the second copy of the spell cannot have any metamagic feats applied to it.
Alternatively, the second copy cannot, specifically, have echo spell applied to it.
Its not going to be a very common occurrence right now anyway, but an infinite spell loop is something I am going to close up.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It seems to me that the easiest fix here is that the second copy of the spell cannot have any metamagic feats applied to it.
Alternatively, the second copy cannot, specifically, have echo spell applied to it.
Its not going to be a very common occurrence right now anyway, but an infinite spell loop is something I am going to close up.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
There is some good sample language up-thread of just that. Thanks for being on top of it, to the whole staff not just Jason.
you are talking about an ability that can only really be exploited when the PCs can already cast 9th level spells.
there are far worse things to worry about than a cleric that can cast heal all day.
If I am trying to make a powerful caster and I can get an infinitive casting of a spell it won't be healing. Nice try at picking a spell that you know people won't go for though.
It seems to me that the easiest fix here is that the second copy of the spell cannot have any metamagic feats applied to it.
Alternatively, the second copy cannot, specifically, have echo spell applied to it.
Its not going to be a very common occurrence right now anyway, but an infinite spell loop is something I am going to close up.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I would prefer no metamagic. The second casting is only copy of the first one is a good way to do it.
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It seems to me that the easiest fix here is that the second copy of the spell cannot have any metamagic feats applied to it.
Alternatively, the second copy cannot, specifically, have echo spell applied to it.
Its not going to be a very common occurrence right now anyway, but an infinite spell loop is something I am going to close up.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Its not an infinite spell loop.
My Sorc casts Spell Perfection Finger of Death Echoed.
I now have an additional casting of Finger of Death...
For Sorcs it essentially doubles the number of spells they can cast.
For Wizards since they had to prepare the spell in Advance they can't just add Echo back on the spell. It only allows a second casting of the spell not a second casting of Spell Echo.
It just needs a clarification...
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Director of Game Design
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Its not an infinite spell loop.
My Sorc casts Spell Perfection Finger of Death Echoed.
I now have an additional casting of Finger of Death...
For Sorcs it essentially doubles the number of spells they can cast.For Wizards since they had to prepare the spell in Advance they can't just add Echo back on the spell. It only allows a second casting of the spell not a second casting of Spell Echo.
It just needs a clarification...
I understand where you are coming from, and I can certainly see that standpoint, but I can also see this easily being read the other way as well.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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There's no correction or errata needed. You cannot apply the same metamagic feat to a spell twice, and the Echoing Spell feat specifically says that you cast the same spell a second time during the day. That means it's still an echoing flesh to stone (or whatever else). Since it's already an Echoing Spell, you can't Echo it again.
You can apply a MM feat twice. Heighten is the only one that really matters, since the rest are worded in such a way they overlap (like empower)
Its not an infinite spell loop.
My Sorc casts Spell Perfection Finger of Death Echoed.
I now have an additional casting of Finger of Death...
For Sorcs it essentially doubles the number of spells they can cast.For Wizards since they had to prepare the spell in Advance they can't just add Echo back on the spell. It only allows a second casting of the spell not a second casting of Spell Echo.
It just needs a clarification...
I understand where you are coming from, and I can certainly see that standpoint, but I can also see this easily being read the other way as well.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Don't allow echo spell to be used on anything with a casting time less than a standard action. By 15th level you're looking at action economy more than resource economy for most fights.
I'm not remotely understanding how this loophole exists, or rather exists in the way they say it does. By the argument that this loophole exists, then simply being a spontaneous caster gives you infinite spells using echoing spell because in scanning the thread the argument that it can be cast infinitely relies entirely on Echoing Spell being applied as the spell is cast instead of prepared that way. Spontaneous casters don't prepare spells with metamagic. Either this loophole is WAY bigger or it doesn't exist.
I'm not remotely understanding how this loophole exists, or rather exists in the way they say it does. By the argument that this loophole exists, then simply being a spontaneous caster gives you infinite spells using echoing spell because in scanning the thread the argument that it can be cast infinitely relies entirely on Echoing Spell being applied as the spell is cast instead of prepared that way. Spontaneous casters don't prepare spells with metamagic. Either this loophole is WAY bigger or it doesn't exist.
I'm in the same situation.
I'm not remotely understanding how this loophole exists, or rather exists in the way they say it does. By the argument that this loophole exists, then simply being a spontaneous caster gives you infinite spells using echoing spell because in scanning the thread the argument that it can be cast infinitely relies entirely on Echoing Spell being applied as the spell is cast instead of prepared that way. Spontaneous casters don't prepare spells with metamagic. Either this loophole is WAY bigger or it doesn't exist.I'm in the same situation.
I'm going to encapsulate elements in <> to make this a bit clearer.
The original take by RD... which I can see being argued... was that you cast <Flesh to Stone> and then use Spell Perfection to apply <Echo>.
In the first take this reads <Echo><Flesh to Stone>. This causes <Flesh to Stone> to return/be-held for a second casing. This second <Flesh to Stone> can have <Echo> applied during casting... <Echo><Flesh to Stone>... which returns <Flesh to Stone>.... Infinity Loop.
The more sane interpertiation should likely run this way:
Spell Prefection adds <Echo> in the same nature as a spontaneous caster making <Flesh to Stone> now read as <Echo Flesh to Stone>... which is held as <Echo Flesh to Stone> for the second casting, much the same way as if it had been prepared as <Echo Flesh To Stone> in the first place, keeping in mind the effects of Spell Perfection. This keeps Echo from being applied again as per the normal restriction on Metamsgic only being applied once.
=====
Following that we have two options one where Echo should not allow extra meta magic to be applied and one where you can. Currently by without modification it will work in the second case allowing this sequenced
Prepare/Cast <Flesh to Stone>
Apply Spell Perfection <Echo>
Hold <Echo Flesh to Stone>
Cast <Echo Flesh to Stone>
Apply <Silent> for <Silent Echo Flesh to Stone>
Total castings 2
<Echo Flesh to Stone>
<Silent Echo Flesh to Stone> (on it's echo)
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A little round about and could get really confusing if a Spontanious Caster tried to add an other Metamsgic effect (say one that had no level modification like the old Elemental Spell which changed the damage type back in 3e D&D)
I'm not remotely understanding how this loophole exists, or rather exists in the way they say it does. By the argument that this loophole exists, then simply being a spontaneous caster gives you infinite spells using echoing spell because in scanning the thread the argument that it can be cast infinitely relies entirely on Echoing Spell being applied as the spell is cast instead of prepared that way. Spontaneous casters don't prepare spells with metamagic. Either this loophole is WAY bigger or it doesn't exist.I'm in the same situation.I'm going to encapsulate elements in <> to make this a bit clearer.
The original take by RD... which I can see being argued... was that you cast <Flesh to Stone> and then use Spell Perfection to apply <Echo>.
In the first take this reads <Echo><Flesh to Stone>. This causes <Flesh to Stone> to return/be-held for a second casing. This second <Flesh to Stone> can have <Echo> applied during casting... <Echo><Flesh to Stone>... which returns <Flesh to Stone>.... Infinity Loop.
Which is an inherent property of spontaneous casters. Spell Perfection has jack all to do with anything (as far as spontaneous casters are concerned). Either the loophole is GINORMOUS in that it was written by some one who had NO idea how spontaneous casters used metamagic or there is NO LOOPHOLE and the argument is moronic.
And if that violates some rule, then the infinite spell loop STILL doesn't work. Nothing in Spell Perfection even implies it can override the "no double metamagic on a spell" rules.
thank you Dorje.
Which is an inherent property of spontaneous casters. Spell Perfection has jack all to do with anything (as far as spontaneous casters are concerned). Either the loophole is GINORMOUS in that it was written by some one who had NO idea how spontaneous casters used metamagic or there is NO LOOPHOLE and the argument is moronic.
And if that violates some rule, then the infinite spell loop STILL doesn't work. Nothing in Spell Perfection even implies it can override the "no double metamagic on a spell" rules.
Not quite. Keep in mind that confusing factor is that Spell Perfection does not change the Slot used. This is different then spontaneous caster Metamagic.
Depending on how you parse the order of applying metamagic there is a argument for it. All be it a weak one once you start digging into it as the community has now done (points to RD for pointing toward it), and wouldnt last in most real life games, but it's still good for newer GMs to look at thread like these from time to time. For instruction now to defend against creative player rules dissection.
Just to be clear to lurkers one could split spontaneous casting this way...
• Choose a spelll (at given level) <spell>
• Apply Metamagic (increasing level) <meta magic> <spell>
• Cast spell from higher slot <meta magic spell>
The (weak) argument I can follow (but not totally agree with) is that Spell Perfection splits in here
• Choose a spelll (at given level) <spell>
• Apply Metamagic (increasing level) <meta magic> <spell>
• Declare you're casting spell from higher slot <meta magic spell>
---> Triggers Spell Perfection, no change in slot used <spell-per meta><meta magic spell>
• Cast <spell-per meta><meta magic spell>
This is caused by Spell Prefection being invoked when you cast the spell. In this case it is being interpreted as being applied concurrently with the casting, not slightly before as is normal with spontaneous Metamagic.
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I'm not saying I agree with that interpretation or more accurately the final result. However like any good cheese a good orator or aggressive personality has just enough "toe and finger" hold to climb this cliff with some legitimacy. Although to keep with that analogy a good wind (such as the scrutiny in this thread) could knock them off.
(IMO the 1st "loop" logic would earn the player a death glare from me as GM, followed by a flung extra hard copy Core Book if they persisted. I'm actually fine with more meta magic getting applied to the echo, it's 15+ level trick and needs 4+ feats dedicated to it, plus the level stacking cap so it doest go out of control.)
Spell Perfection
You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.
Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
Echoing Spell (Metamagic)
You have learned how to release most, but not all, of a spell’s potential when you cast it.Benefit: When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day. If you prepare spells, this second casting does not require you to prepare it in another spell slot. If you spontaneously cast spells, this second casting does not expend another available spell slot. An echoing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
So, the cost is 4 feats minimum, out of the 8 feats gained through leveling. The benefit is being able to cast a single spell at will, at its casting time, subject to arcane spell failure if you are an arcane caster, up to a maximum spell level of 6, since spell perfection can't raise the effective level above 9th with the addition of a metamagic feat, and echo spell increases the spell slot by 3.
Now, lets see what a magic item that does this same thing would cost.
For an at will or continuous spell:
2000 * spell level * minimum caster level
So 2000*6*11
132,000 gp to purchase, but only 66,000 gp to craft.
If you wanted to spend most of your feats for something that would cost you a bit less than 30% of your wealth by level to craft you should be allowed by RAW and rewarded by game balance to do so.
This does not seem to be a rules oversight.
Guys, the feat needs clarification or errata. I don't want 40 double-sided pages of 8 point font explaining how "The Stack" works for a single feat. I'm not playing Magic the Gathering here, I'm playing Pathfinder.
I just want them to add "The additional casting of a spell obtained through this feat cannot generate further additional casting through any means.", or whatever they feel is necessary to stop the infinite spell combo.
It is blindingly obvious that the interpretation can EASILY swing either way without going out of your way to intentionally misread a rule. Why are people acting like the suggestion that something needs clarification or errata is tantamount to that person kicking your puppy?
Guys, the feat needs clarification or errata. I don't want 40 double-sided pages of 8 point font explaining how "The Stack" works for a single feat. I'm not playing Magic the Gathering here, I'm playing Pathfinder.
I just want them to add "The additional casting of a spell obtained through this feat cannot generate further additional casting through any means.", or whatever they feel is necessary to stop the infinite spell combo.
It is blindingly obvious that the interpretation can EASILY swing either way without going out of your way to intentionally misread a rule. Why are people acting like the suggestion that something needs clarification or errata is tantamount to that person kicking your puppy?
I think the thread title is misleading and meant to provoke a reaction for attention to the rules question.
Words like loop and unlimited don't really have any place in rules discussion, especially not for the question at hand.
You must be level 15 for this to work.
You must have chosen the echo spell feat and two other metamagic feats for this to work. It costs a total of 4 feats, which is specialization intensive.
You can pick one spell. If you pick a spell above 6th level, the combo does not work. Picking a spell below 6th level is a waste.
You must spend the casting time in order to cast the spell. A swift action at the least, so the most you could use this would be once per round, and it costs an action.
You accomplish something that replicates the effect of a magic item that would cost significantly less of an investment of your expected wealth by level to craft yourself. At higher levels you could afford to craft many of these items, and not put a dent in your fortunes.
I dunno if this combo was intended to work, but I don't think it is unbalanced, considering the cost in action economy and feat economy.