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I know it's 4 months away still before they release the Ultimate Combat source book, but i can't help thinking about the katana.
The two knew variant classes: Samurai and Ninja are suppose to be proficient in the katana.
This stimulates me thoughts into thinking is this sword going to be a finesse-able weapon or not?
The Pre-test tells us to use the weapon like a Bastard sword for now, but i view this weapon to be more fluid in use rather than straight hack & slash.
I do remember that the wakazashi was similar to a short sword as well, except with the difference that it's slashing and not piercing like a short swords weapon damage. (just pointing out differences from older 3.5 systems previously.)
Anyone have an opinion or insight into this thought on the katana or the new weapons?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I'd fall into the Katana is NOT a bastard sword camp.
My idea for the Katana would be more in lines with an exotic weapon that is more like the Elven Curveblade, but usable with one or two hands.
This is why we need a [Like] Button.
Couldn't agree more with Moorluck (on many things other than this as well, but that's another story...).
I'd fall into the Katana is NOT a bastard sword camp.
My idea for the Katana would be more in lines with an exotic weapon that is more like the Elven Curveblade, but usable with one or two hands.
This is why we need a [Like] Button.
Couldn't agree more with Moorluck (on many things other than this as well, but that's another story...).
I agree with you're agreeing. I see Samurai types as wearing medium armor and having a high dex. Asian sword fighting was usually about landing the first blow. The higher critical of the curved sword plays into that as well.
That said, it creates some balance issues. Why would anyone spend exotic weapon proficiency on a bastard sword, when they could spend the same feat to get the same damage in one hand, but with a better critical. Further, they finally throw Elven Fighters a tiny bone, by giving them free proficiency in a moderately useful weapon that supports a very limited melee build (the elven curved blade). If you make katana's completely trump that weapon, you're screwing elven fighters.
Wacky idea: Using a katana (same statistics as elven curved blade) is an exotic weapon proficiency. However to use it in one hand, it requires a second exotic weapon proficiency. Samurais work hard to be that awesome.
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I'd fall into the Katana is NOT a bastard sword camp.
My idea for the Katana would be more in lines with an exotic weapon that is more like the Elven Curveblade, but usable with one or two hands.
This is why we need a [Like] Button.
Couldn't agree more with Moorluck (on many things other than this as well, but that's another story...).
I agree with you're agreeing. I see Samurai types as wearing medium armor and having a high dex. Asian sword fighting was usually about landing the first blow. The higher critical of the curved sword plays into that as well.
That said, it creates some balance issues. Why would anyone spend exotic weapon proficiency on a bastard sword, when they could spend the same feat to get the same damage in one hand, but with a better critical. Further, they finally throw Elven Fighters a tiny bone, by giving them free proficiency in a moderately useful weapon that supports a very limited melee build (the elven curved blade). If you make katana's completely trump that weapon, you're screwing elven fighters.
Wacky idea: Using a katana (same statistics as elven curved blade) is an exotic weapon proficiency. However to use it in one hand, it requires a second exotic weapon proficiency. Samurais work hard to be that awesome.
Not entirely a bad idea, definitely something I would consider.
Exotic weapons can be a sore spot anyway, there's a bunch of them that I would NEVER burn a feat for. I think the Katana should be worth the feat.
The katana IS a two handed sword that CAN be used one handed, which is why it is similar in respects to the bastard sword, game mechanic wise.
Take the pen and paper stuff and apply the mechanics to your mental image of katana.
Why is this so hard?
It's no different than wakizashi being a slashing short sword, other than that the stats are the same.
seriously the katana isn't going to be different enough to be worth writing a new rules block for it.
A bigger question might be, why did they give so much kudos to something lame like the falcata, but then state the katana 'isnt going to be the special'
Id be happy with falcata stats for the katana, with d10 because its a larger sword and a special feat (along the lines of dervish dance, maybe call it iajutsu) that lets you use it one handed and make it finessable.
I personally don't think the katana IRL is that good of a sword, but if they give something as obscure as the falcata special props... but limit the katana to 'bastard sword', i guess thats where i get my 'wwwaaaait a minute' from.
The only basis we have for the falcata being a good sword is the romans thinking it was... they had a glorified dagger to compare it to, of course they thought it was great.
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A bigger question might be, why did they give so much kudos to something lame like the falcata, but then state the katana 'isnt going to be the special'
Id be happy with falcata stats for the katana, with d10 because its a larger sword and a special feat (along the lines of dervish dance, maybe call it iajutsu) that lets you use it one handed and make it finessable.
I think the main reason for the Falcata having its (Mostly overpowered) stats the way they are is because of a simple mechanical oversight by whoever was responsible for writing it up. As is, it is far and away the best weapon for anyone who intends to focus on critical hits, be it 1 or 2 handed.
That being said the way the two weapons function (Physically), they couldn't be farther apart from one another. The strength of the Falcata lies in the fact that its momentum and power is focused at the end of the blade and that grants more kinetic energy into whatever it is you are attempting to strike. The katana on the other hand is a weapon that is crafted specifically with the intention of being "perfectly balanced." This is not something that is shared between the two weapons and therefore would not accurately reflect what (I believe) the mechanics should be.
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The katana IS a two handed sword that CAN be used one handed, which is why it is similar in respects to the bastard sword, game mechanic wise.
Take the pen and paper stuff and apply the mechanics to your mental image of katana.
Why is this so hard?
It's no different than wakizashi being a slashing short sword, other than that the stats are the same.seriously the katana isn't going to be different enough to be worth writing a new rules block for it.
A bigger question might be, why did they give so much kudos to something lame like the falcata, but then state the katana 'isnt going to be the special'
Id be happy with falcata stats for the katana, with d10 because its a larger sword and a special feat (along the lines of dervish dance, maybe call it iajutsu) that lets you use it one handed and make it finessable.
I personally don't think the katana IRL is that good of a sword, but if they give something as obscure as the falcata special props... but limit the katana to 'bastard sword', i guess thats where i get my 'wwwaaaait a minute' from.
The only basis we have for the falcata being a good sword is the romans thinking it was... they had a glorified dagger to compare it to, of course they thought it was great.
No.
Katanas aren't some sort of magical super weapon. Get over it.
I have been running the katana using the stats of the Aldori dueling sword. One or two handed, finesse-able, good crit range, ok damage.
Why would it be two handed without the exotic weapon prof (being treated as a longsword)? I just go with a cultural preference to finesse the blade, but use it two handed to get some extra damage.
The katana IS a two handed sword that CAN be used one handed, which is why it is similar in respects to the bastard sword, game mechanic wise.
Take the pen and paper stuff and apply the mechanics to your mental image of katana.
Why is this so hard?
It's no different than wakizashi being a slashing short sword, other than that the stats are the same.seriously the katana isn't going to be different enough to be worth writing a new rules block for it.
A bigger question might be, why did they give so much kudos to something lame like the falcata, but then state the katana 'isnt going to be the special'
Id be happy with falcata stats for the katana, with d10 because its a larger sword and a special feat (along the lines of dervish dance, maybe call it iajutsu) that lets you use it one handed and make it finessable.
I personally don't think the katana IRL is that good of a sword, but if they give something as obscure as the falcata special props... but limit the katana to 'bastard sword', i guess thats where i get my 'wwwaaaait a minute' from.
The only basis we have for the falcata being a good sword is the romans thinking it was... they had a glorified dagger to compare it to, of course they thought it was great.
No.
Katanas aren't some sort of magical super weapon. Get over it.
No. Katanas are NOT. And I said that above. BUT if you are going to assign super weapon stats, katana fits the bill better than some archaic clunky kukri with a fancy handle which in reality is just a scimitar.
Katanas popularity and longevity earn it a spot being singled out as 'better', falcata is essentially a gaming goof.
You clearly read nothing I wrote.
I have been running the katana using the stats of the Aldori dueling sword. One or two handed, finesse-able, good crit range, ok damage.
Why would it be two handed without the exotic weapon prof (being treated as a longsword)? I just go with a cultural preference to finesse the blade, but use it two handed to get some extra damage.
Because the katana IS a two handed sword, with a two handed fighting style, that is light enough to be used one handed if you are well trained with it. (kinda like a light saber, it's meant to be a two handed weapon but you can see the really well trained use it one handed)
Most of the junk you see these days called 'katanas' are just 'costume swords' and do not depict the actual weapon very well, they more resemble the ww2 era katanas that were cut down to a shorter length by the Japanese Imperial Army and Navy (why Im not sure) but the actual blade length of period katanas was quite longer.
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I don't think anybody has said the katana is a "super weapon". Just that it should be treated mechanic wise as the weapon it evolved to be. A weapon of exceptional design. There is a reason it has long been held as the pinnacle of sword design, although I will point out that this has something to do with the rarity of heavier armors in feudal Japan.
The katana isn't the greatest weapon of all time, but it sure as hell is one of the best designs in RW history. There's a reason it lasted in use longer than pretty much any other comparable sword.
I don't condone just making it a bastard sword clone, but even though the katana was usually used in two-hands, there are instances of them being used one-handed or dual-wielded. I'd look to the Aldori dueling sword for inspiration. A one-handed exotic weapon that includes bonuses or feat support which offers incentive to wield it in two hands regardless. This would also help to illustrate the more refined combat style we often associate with the weapon.
Katanas should totally fire off other Katanas that then proceed to spew forth an army of bears and/or sharks.
I say keep them like bastard swords.
I'd fall into the Katana is NOT a bastard sword camp.
My idea for the Katana would be more in lines with an exotic weapon that is more like the Elven Curveblade, but usable with one or two hands.
1d8 damage, 18-20 crit, slashing, and can be used one handed if taking exotic weapon prof. Can be finessable.
Thats what I see and thats what we use at our gaming table for the weapon. AKA ... its just a smaller elven curve blade.
but that doesnt include any bears or sharks? im confused..
You're not alone, bro.I'd fall into the Katana is NOT a bastard sword camp.
My idea for the Katana would be more in lines with an exotic weapon that is more like the Elven Curveblade, but usable with one or two hands.
Cept that was katana vs longsword..
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Cept that was katana vs longsword..You're not alone, bro.I'd fall into the Katana is NOT a bastard sword camp.
My idea for the Katana would be more in lines with an exotic weapon that is more like the Elven Curveblade, but usable with one or two hands.
Don't let the naming business confuse you. The D&D longsword is a single-handed weapon, though you can put two hands on it. The D&D bastard sword is a two-handed weapon that can be wielded with one hand if you're really good.
R. Lee Ermey definitely handles a D&D bastard sword, under this definition. A knightly arming sword is more up the alley of the D&D long sword.
Well still.. I don't think there should be too great of a mechanical difference, elven curved blade should work well enough as a mechanical stance for it.
But i know.. Japanese people aren't elves.. (Not all katanas were made in japan!)
It does seem though like they are making a bastard sword a katana, simply because DnD did it. Which is really strange given that DnD made ninja wis based and now they are trying to make it cha based.
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Well still.. I don't think there should be too great of a mechanical difference, elven curved blade should work well enough as a mechanical stance for it.
But i know.. Japanese people aren't elves.. (Not all katanas were made in japan!)
It does seem though like they are making a bastard sword a katana, simply because DnD did it. Which is really strange given that DnD made ninja wis based and now they are trying to make it cha based.
I actually have to agree that the Katana is similar to the Elven Curve Blade, but looking back at the production dates of when the books were released. It seems that the Oriental theme side of Pathfinder had not come into full fruition just yet. Sure there was a mention of the kingdoms of Tian, but (IMO) the developers wanted to focus on the Western Fantasy side of the game first.
With that said, why should it not be possible to a bunch of humans on the other side of the world take a weapon that is similar to one that the elves made (i.e. Elven Curve Blade), and improve or discover a way to make a similar weapon one handed.I see a large of amount of players debating on this, but everyone is able back up their ideas with sound arguments (most of the time). It is all going to boil down to how the developers feel makes the most sense.
My vote would be make the sword similar to the Curve Blade, Elven; but with the one handed option.
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i agree except that katanas were one-handed weapons. If you have ever taken a Ken-do class in your life the sensi would slap in the back of your head for even attempting to use it one-handed. I agree that it is more like an elven curve blade, still two-handed, but has a finesse option. I say the wakaszashi is a finesse shortsword that deals slashing...so yeah.
I say it should be exactly like the bastard sword, but step the crit range up by one and step the damage die down by one. Done.+<infinite>
Now we're getting somewhere.
Edit
i agree except that katanas were one-handed weapons. If you have ever taken a Ken-do class in your life the sensi would slap in the back of your head for even attempting to use it one-handed. I agree that it is more like an elven curve blade, still two-handed, but has a finesse option. I say the wakaszashi is a finesse shortsword that deals slashing...so yeah.
Katanna sword fighting > than Kendo
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i agree except that katanas were one-handed weapons. If you have ever taken a Ken-do class in your life the sensi would slap in the back of your head for even attempting to use it one-handed. I agree that it is more like an elven curve blade, still two-handed, but has a finesse option. I say the wakaszashi is a finesse shortsword that deals slashing...so yeah.
Viewing a style like Kendo it tends to emphasize on very heavy strikes, hence why they would probably prefer 8 times out of 10 to use both hands to maximize the impact of each strike. However if you want to have a more fluid and finesse-able style you would have to adjust to use it 1 handed and 2 handed. Using a weapon in both hands at the same time tends to limit your range of motion to certain areas with swing arcs.
That is if we really want compare the weapon to reality and it's uses.
I want to be able to triple wield katana.
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/polls/499000/499318_1279937450703_full.jpg
Viewing a style like Kendo it tends to emphasize on very heavy strikes, hence why they would probably prefer 8 times out of 10 to use both hands to maximize the impact of each strike. However if you want to have a more fluid and finesse-able style you would have to adjust to use it 1 handed and 2 handed. Using a weapon in both hands at the same time tends to limit your range of motion to certain areas with swing arcs.
That is if we really want compare the weapon to reality and it's uses.
Long post is long folks. Sorry in advance.
I would like to question the reality of only using one hand somehow giving you more control of the blade as seems to be the implication. Indeed that is much of the reason why two hands are used. There really is no good reason why limiting the amount of strength you can use to control the blade would somehow make your hand-eye coordination give you more benefit that with two hands. The mechanics of a curved blade would make it akward for prolonged one-handed fighting. I can arrive at no plausable or even supported benefit from one handing the katana, other than you get to keep a free hand for the shields they didn't use. The only time I am aware of it being common practice would be for a few iai cuts from the draw, and even then most of those go two-handed immediately before swinging. Sure Musashi allegedly (the evidence is sketchy that he ever did it in a duel) used his katana and wakazashi at the same time. He was also about as lucky as good, he wrote as much. Even if such was done, it was to gain the advantage of a the small sword as a shield and not to increase the finesse. Further, kendo sparring with a full sized and a smaller kendo stick is allowed in some circles but is incredibly difficult supposedly because it takes supreme strength to swing a stick even near the speed that two hands does with little extra effort. Even then, two handed use is still the winner quite frequently as they can more freely and quickly recover from a swing where the one handed swing is slower to recover.
Overall, there really is no reason why it should get finesse. Follow the thinking here for a second and I will come to a conclusion that can allow for it. Weapon finesse generally seems to be for weapons of mostly inferior status for warfare compared to the weapons around them. It is made for weapons that essentialy gain zero benefit from swinging with two hands. The dagger gains very little from two handed use by comparison to a felling axe or greatclub. Weapon finesse is there for weapons that are essentially inferior to full battlefield weapons. Shortswords fall under that reduced two-handed benefit and are for war sure, however the rest of the light weapons are more or less not intended as main combat weapons as much as they are tools or secondary items. There are three (core) combat weapons that allow for finesse to apply, the rapier, elven curve blade, and the spiked chain (The whip is a tool, deal). The curve blade is used later. The spiked chain is odd, and the rapier falls more into the "reduced impact of using two hands" catagory. Even then, if we are trying to use reality, the rapier is most frequently paired with a shield or buckler and some form of armor for military use. The whole "If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls." nixes the idea of weapon finesse for sword and buckler men. So in general, weapon finesse is not appropriate for most combative type characters. Between the limited and,save the rapier, totally inferior weapon selection, finesse is not a main combat feat but instead something to bring a bad selection closer in line with a more combat oriented one. It allows characters without much investment in strength and little use of shields, like many rogues or bards, to use their inferior weapons at a slightly closer level to a real dedicated martial combatant. The duelist is the exception here, however the duelist isn't really . . . worth the time or effort. It is neat, like the one-handed fighter variant, but of reduced strength than most fighters, much like the one-handed fighter. It does neat things, unfortuate that most of those are not related to actually dealing damage or attacking.
Now, since they decided to add the elven curve blade in as a core weapon, that does throw the regular framework out the window. I support the core notion of weapon finesse, however if modified I would suggest that you be able to use weapon finesse with the normal selection and in addition with any weapon your are proficent with for a really generous rule, any you have focus with if you needed a more difficult requirement, or else take finesse away from the curve blade. It is one pound lighter than the greatsword or falchion and is essentially a sized up falchion. It is a vicim of the "elves use dex Wheee!" mentality. There is no real reason for it to be a finesse weapon. If it is related to a special combat style, requiring focus could work. If it is related to how the weapon is naturally used then proficencey seems to work. Otherwise it has no reason to be a finesse weapon, or on the other hand for the normal longsword to not be finesse.
(This is getting long winded, bonus points for you if you are still bothering to read.)
As it is, they have printed the Aldori Dueling Sword(ADS) which is described to the letter as a katana, just without using the term. The implication is that it does intentionally break the conventions of regular weapons and weapon finesse. The finesse is indeed the whole point of the sword. Two feats, exotic weapon prof and weapon finesse, are needed to turn this weapon into a finesse two-handed sword and this was viewed as potent enough to merit the exotic weapon prof just to unlock the chance to use finesse on what is just a regular longsword. They offered the trait "Sword Scion" that gave an automatic proficencey and a +1 trait bonus to hit with the ADS, and assuming that the Samurai get the ADS type mechanics for the katana I would expect that many samurai characters would take a relevant trait for that if they really wanted to be finesse swordmasters. Over 90% of samurai will be content to just use their bastard sword and not bother with finesse type things. If it gets finesse, and the ability for one-handed use, it will look like the ADS. It will not see an increased threat range like all of the other curved blades, just like that threat range increase was not placed on the ADS.
I support the idea of the martial 1d8 18-20/x2 without finesse that can be one-handed as per bastard sword. It will technically be inferior to the falchion, so the difficult one-handed use will likely not be a balance issue while still being strong enough for katana fans. Samurai would likely have the proficencey to use it one-handed, and other types of warrior still get to use the thing two-handed. The katana was not just for samurai depending on what era we are talking. Katana is just the Japanese sword, all of their warrior class would have the possibility of using one.
(Almost done, this is just a side note)
I dislike the exotic weapon prof for bastard sword. I say let it be used one-handed at a -2 and leave that as just part of the martial weapon. It is basically a wrong sized longsword when one-handed, just use the darn -2 wrong size penalty. It is less of an idea killer than the -4, is quickly offset by other bonuses, and the guy with a bastard sword has a chance to be on a horse and get that +1 to melee attacks against infantry. When on a horse, indeed it would be the overall smart thing to do, one-hand the bastard sword and use a heavy shield.
As I posted earlier on another thread, I think the katana that has evolved in this thread is just about perfect. I had one more tweak though to make the rules more elegant: Just make it an exotic 1-handed weapon (instead of the whole bastard sword thing). If someone wants to two-hand it for extra power, they can just like any other weapon. So we have:
Katana- Exotic, 1-handed weapon, 1d8 damage, crit 18-20x2, Special: you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to use your Dex modifier instead of your Str modifier when attacking.
My idea for the Katana would be more in lines with an exotic weapon that is more like the Elven Curveblade, but usable with one or two hands.
Mine too. I would use the eleven curve-blade stats (1d10, two handed, 18-20 Crit, finesse-able) for the basic use of it. If you have proficiency, you can gain a second feat to use it one-handed.
Alternatively, have two versions (not that unrealistic, as noted above size of these weapons varied) - the long version is the equivelant of an elven curve-blade as above, but has to be two-handed. The short version is similar but does 1d8 damage instead of 1d10 and can be used one or two handed like a bastard sword. In this case, proficiency allows use of either weapon.
the samurai quick draw (iajustu/iado) is clearly a one hand technique.
However I think it was advanced and rare, kind of like rambo one handing an M60. Possible? yes, common? No. Easily done by the rank and file? Not at all.
the samurai quick draw (iajustu/iado) is clearly a one hand technique.
However I think it was advanced and rare, kind of like rambo one handing an M60. Possible? yes, common? No. Easily done by the rank and file? Not at all.
Technically that attack was actually 2handed. They needed one hand to be placed onto the sword and the other on the scabbard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z25i4SbE70
and pretty much it is only for one attack that they have one handed. There is actually very few samurai who duel wielded katana.. Musashi was one of them and if I recall, he beat up someone with a boat oar..
+1 on the The_Normal_Anomaly's Long Post
1d8 Two Handed Martial Weapon w/ 18-20 Threat Range
The Katana is as much a finesse weapon as a Longsword. As a long time L5R player, I like the idea of maybe a single Samurai school that wields the daisho set, but this ability should be rarer than just a feat.
Now a 1d12 2H Exotic Nodachi would peak my interest, or better yet a Tetsubo, because Greatclub does not do it justice. Earthbreaker Hammer mechanics would do it well enough though.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My Katana like weapons I posted here.
As to 'real Katanas aren't finessable!' RPGs have always straddled the line between fantasy and 'realism' Is it really the end of the world if the katana is finessable?
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[As it is, they have printed the Aldori Dueling Sword(ADS) which is described to the letter as a katana, just without using the term. The implication is that it does intentionally break the conventions of regular weapons and weapon finesse. The finesse is indeed the whole point of the sword. Two feats, exotic weapon prof and weapon finesse, are needed to turn this weapon into a finesse two-handed sword and this was viewed as potent enough to merit the exotic weapon prof just to unlock the chance to use finesse on what is just a regular longsword. They offered the trait "Sword Scion" that gave an automatic proficencey and a +1 trait bonus to hit with the ADS, and assuming that the Samurai get the ADS type mechanics for the katana I would expect that many samurai characters would take a relevant trait for that if they really wanted to be finesse swordmasters. Over 90% of samurai will be content to just use their bastard sword and not bother with finesse type things. If it gets finesse, and the ability for one-handed use, it will look like the ADS. It will not see an increased threat range like all of the other curved blades, just like that threat range increase was not placed on the ADS.
As i was reading the stats on the Aldori Dueling Sword style in Pathfinder Companion -Inner Sea Primer on page 24 " The following benefits only apply when a swordlord is using an Aldori dueling sword and carrying nothing in his other hand. "
This leads me to believe that the sword is used in one hand to get the full and idealized benefits of the Aldori Dueling Swordlords. The hilt of a longsword generally doesn't allow much space to be held in both hands unless you held the pummel of the weapon to gain extra grip instead of the handle area.Hence why i believe it is possible to use a weapon effectively in one hand like the katana or the bastard sword.
If you look at the handle of a bastard sword, it has a handle for a hand and a half use opposed to a long sword (1 hand), and a great sword (2 hands). Same as the Katana for it's handle. The hand and half style of a sword allows the wielder to use it effectively with one hand or two hands. While the one hand length handle of a long sword generally is used for predominantly in just one hand (except on occasions when the wielder wanted to put his entire weight behind the swing.). Now a 2 hands handle sword is just too unwieldy any way you use it unless it is used with just that, 2 hands.
I am not sitting here and stating that i am an expert in the uses of the sword, nor a historian of academic level, but when i was younger i would practice choreographed stage combat for various plays, and my acting troop generally used period combat styles for the weapon that was being used. I used a bastard sword generally, however i did use the long sword, and on occasions the 2 handed swords. I found the bastard sword the most comfortable out of all of them due to the versatility of it. 2 Handed swords were generally used to dismount warriors on horses. Long swords were here first, and from there the bastard sword evolved. Finally the Saber and Rapier replaced most of them due to their speed and armor piercing capability.
(Sorry for the Long post as well)
As to 'real Katanas aren't finessable!' RPGs have always straddled the line between fantasy and 'realism' Is it really the end of the world if the katana is finessable?
I agree with Morris on this as well. If the developers decide to make it finesse-able fine, have a ball with the weapon, and enjoy. However if they don't, then pick another weapon finesse the life out if, and have fun as well. Certain people's view on change tend to spark such turmoil and conflict that at times it can be humorous, or just plain annoying on how it's approached.
the samurai quick draw (iajustu/iado) is clearly a one hand technique.
However I think it was advanced and rare, kind of like rambo one handing an M60. Possible? yes, common? No. Easily done by the rank and file? Not at all.
Technically that attack was actually 2handed. They needed one hand to be placed onto the sword and the other on the scabbard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z25i4SbE70
and pretty much it is only for one attack that they have one handed. There is actually very few samurai who duel wielded katana.. Musashi was one of them and if I recall, he beat up someone with a boat oar..
Thats like saying a wand is two handed because you need to second hand to help get it out of the pouch.
Two hands are not on the weapon during it's use or the strike that does damage, So, obviously, one could not do this with say, a great sword.
But could if one (properly trained) was using a bastard sword.
I think the ultimate test to if a weapon should be able to be used one handed or not, is, can you envision someone swinging on a rope using one hand to hold on, and one hand to fight with the weapon?
A two handed weapon that CAN be wielded one hand fits both bastard sword and katana. A one handed weapon that CAN be wielded two hands does not fit katana.
Plus if it was a one handed weapon, WHY would it be exotic? The exotic-ness of the bastard sword is the speciality of it being able to be used in one hand. Other than that it's just a stubby greatsword, which really fits katana as well.
Any Fighter should be able to use it two handed. as this is its most common use and it's not that different than any other sword in this case (swing and kill stuff) so it should be martial two handed and exotic one handed.
As for better critical with one die lower damage than the bastard sword, I guess I see that being the inevitable direction Paizo can go... there, after all are so few choices without making the weapon overpowered (falcata) or just reprinting the same stats for a different named weapon (sickle/kama).
I think longsword damage with scimitar crit, fits the katana rather well, it's neither longsword, falchion, or scimitar, so it doesn't totally eclipse those weapons, as it needs to be used two handed unless you have the EWP. In the hands of samurai, ninja or ones who tookt he special feat, it's easily better than longsword, falchion or scimitar.
So that really IS it's niche, (1d8 with a 18-20 threat)
the samurai quick draw (iajustu/iado) is clearly a one hand technique.
However I think it was advanced and rare, kind of like rambo one handing an M60. Possible? yes, common? No. Easily done by the rank and file? Not at all.
Technically that attack was actually 2handed. They needed one hand to be placed onto the sword and the other on the scabbard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z25i4SbE70
and pretty much it is only for one attack that they have one handed. There is actually very few samurai who duel wielded katana.. Musashi was one of them and if I recall, he beat up someone with a boat oar..
Thats like saying a wand is two handed because you need to second hand to help get it out of the pouch.
Two hands are not on the weapon during it's use or the strike that does damage, So, obviously, one could not do this with say, a great sword.
But could if one (properly trained) was using a bastard sword.I think the ultimate test to if a weapon should be able to be used one handed or not, is, can you envision someone swinging on a rope using one hand to hold on, and one hand to fight with the weapon?
A two handed weapon that CAN be wielded one hand fits both bastard sword and katana. A one handed weapon that CAN be wielded two hands does not fit katana.
Plus if it was a one handed weapon, WHY would it be exotic? The exotic-ness of the bastard sword is the speciality of it being able to be used in one hand. Other than that it's just a stubby greatsword, which really fits katana as well.
Any Fighter should be able to use it two handed. as this is its most common use and it's not that different than any other sword in this case (swing and kill stuff) so it should be martial two handed and exotic one handed.
As for better critical with one die lower damage than the bastard sword, I guess I see that being the inevitable direction Paizo can go... there, after all are so few choices without making the weapon overpowered (falcata) or just...
If getting the wand out of the pouch with both hands allowed you to use the wand in a similar fashion to the iaijitsu attack..
This isn't the same as "just removing it" from the sheath. This is a Technique that required positioning the sheath with one hand, then using the thumb of that hand to assist in removing the sword from the sheath. Not at all the same as just removing an item from the pouch.
After that initial strike either the sword is returned to the sheath or is wielded 2handed.
Even though samurai get two swords, the Wakazi and the Katana, their uses are.. Katana outdoors, wakazi indoors. Not left hand, right hand. The samurai who did that though was Musashi, one out of many samurai. He also beat up someone with a boat oar.
I say the sword should be 2handed. Then another feat that allows it to be wielded along with a wakazi, a fighting style feat.
Here is my +1 to the Elven Curveblade / Bastard Sword hybrid camp.
Re: Marius696's longer post
-Ayyy, no harm meant. Glad to see that someone bit and added a bit more depth to this, admittedly, small and silly discussion. Thanks.
Re: Matthew Morris' comment about finesse
-End of the world, no. However, I like some consistent reasoning in the game, as opposed to poorly thought out orientalism (and with the curve blade Elfism). It is kind of like the printed Hanbo in the APG. It is a damn stick, why does it get trip? Because it is a Japanese stick. The Japanese stick gets trip as a simple weapon and a special entry. Somehow it is just clearly meant and made to trip people, in spite of it being a stick straight cane. Think an Irish shillelagh would get it's own stats, and I do not mean the druid spell? You will get one of two answers "Treat it as a club/lightmace/heavymace/quarterstaff depending on size. After all, it is just a stick." or "Treat it as an improvised weapon, because it is little more than a stick." This is a bad pattern of thinking to get stuck in. It is this line of thinking that thinks to suggest that all of their stuff is just better than things made elsewhere and everyone in the Asian themed lands get Improved Unarmed Strike for free, or else making the assumption that they all take it with their human bonus feat.
Re: Musashi
-What we have here is a career duelist. All of his feats and stuff would be built around killing people under mostly optimum conditions. Consider that as a duelist he gets to attack against unarmored AC most of the time allowing for more liberal use of power attack and combat expertise. Essentially he was allowed to do things, and focus on them, that would have been dumb in a battlefield context where a number of his opponents were built more for battle practicality and/or *gasp* social interactions. His own writing seems to point to a "Wow, I killed a lot of people who were too focused on things other than fighting." mentality on his part. Add to that he was intentionally disrespectful of duel times and social matters, like Mohamed Ali would run his mouth because "Mad people can't make good choices."
Disclaimer: I have my position, however one of the main things I am trying to encourage would be strong reasons for others' views.
As to the Aldori Dueling Sword, I was operating with the Adventurer's Armory issue one, corrected for the falcata's critical being misplaced on it of course. It made no such distinction of one-handed only finesse. Regardless, the spiked chain nor the elven curve blade have such restrictions and I suppose the whip does not as well.
The katana has no need to be a full exotic. I find that thinking in the vein of "Kama vs. sickle" strangeness. It is a sword, the main battle sword of the whole country. For that one to make sense they would have to, I don't know, make the rapier a counter-exotic that "People from over there" don't get as a martial weapon. With the broad base that martial is, it makes sense to make the katana martial. As it is, even the lowest warrior has become proficient with more weapons than a good Janissary soldier. Adding the katana to that list would, well, make sense. Is it any more exotic than that martial ogre hook?
I always figured exotic were for the most part fantasy weapons that would be, well, dumb in real life. The Orc Double Axe and the old Spiked Chain are at the forefront of the list there. The Barbazu Beard is also in that list of goofy weapons. The exotic weapons are for when someone has a neat but silly or impractical idea, they get to just hand wave the silly with two things: "It is a fantasy game" and "It takes special training." I can see something like this happening for an exotic weapon . . .
"Dude, those Kaiser Helmets must be wicked in melee. It is like a spear on your head!"
"No man, that is dumb. You probably couldn't attack with them. Just trying to would probably provoke an attack of opportunity because you are going in head first. And it would do what, dagger damage?"
"No-no. Follow me here, I can prove it is possible" *Furious keyboard sounds* "Yeah, here we are, watch this. *Cue youtube video of the infamous Zidane headbutt*
"You know, mabey with special training, this isn't such a silly idea after all. Mabey it could even get the Brace quality . . ." and the rest is history.
I really hope that the katana, and most weapons for that matter, stay well clear of this thought process.
Another point of interest. The general DPS trend favors 18-20 and x4 weapons in the long run. The 1d8 18-20/x2 with optional one-handed use is already essentially the bestest sword out there for the most part. Sure, not by leaps and bounds, but it rewards skilled players and characters while remaining competitive at the low levels. The wide threat range allows for better future use of critical feats. Really, about the only swords in the martial category that compete are the great sword and falchion, and well, they should. Great sword is the better low level sword, and the falchion is essentially the same. If looking for exotic comparison, the falcata has been thrown around a bit as a base for comparison. Power creep like building weapons around the falcata need to be thwarted. As stated above even without finesse, it is essentially the most versatile and useful sword for most martial characters at all levels. Sure, not by a Godly huge margin, but still.
Back in oriental adventures, the Iaijutsu Master PrC filled the role of katana duelist. It granted weapon finesse with the katana. I could support weapon finesse if presented in that way.
Lets see, what else could be possibly useful points? The katana's genesis from the old Mongolian cavalry saber (see scimitar) into the katana following the Mongol invasion? That is another element of my argument. The katana really is, at it's core, a bigger saber. A sized up scimitar makes perfect sense in this case. The katana has all the features of a larger saber and none of a finesse weapon.
Totally off of the argument at hand now.
This stat decision even makes sense when viewed in the larger context of Japanland vs. overgeneralized Europe. The Japanese in their lack of shields have no reason not to make the cool new Mongol sword bigger, they lose no function of the blade. That one-handed katana proficiency could even be what replaces the regular shield prof on the cavalier. The wider threat range is more useful in Japanland than in a lot of Europeland. Japanese armor was generally (not talking the super samurai armor here, although it also tended to be lighter than European armor) of lower protective value in addition to using no shields. Metal armor was just not as frequent in the land. This leads to a case where you will generally be attacking against lower ACs. Lower ACs mean that you will confirm criticals more frequently than against higher AC opponents. This in turn provides extra incentive to use a 18-20 (or an x4 in theory) weapon in spite of its lower base damage. Under this, for similar weapons, the katana might appear to be more deadly as it creates a much higher amount of fatal single strikes in the form of criticals. The generalized Europeland made strong use of shields and better armor, making criticals much much rarer. For a general combatant the higher base damage of a 19-20 or x3 would be much more important. Well that and the lance is a giant "screw you" to be compared with Japanland warfare conditions, as well as the proliferation of the crossbow so the AC contest got much more vital to survival than individual damage output in overgeneralized Europe.
With this in mind I can see the martial blade set for this. Disclaimer, terms used are based on general understanding and not 100% language accurate uses.
Tanto: 1d4 18-20/x2 light
Wakazashi: 1d6 18-20/x2 one-handed
Katana: 1d8 18-20/x2 two-handed with bastard sword one-handed feature
Tachi: 2d4 18-20/x2 two-handed
No-Dachi: 1d10 18-20/x2 two-handed Oversized katana, needs the one-handed katana prof to attack at a -2 instead of non-prof + wrong size -6. The two instances this weapon is at it's best the penalty is offset. Either using it to incercept a charge or yourself charging the other modifiers break even with the penalty.
There, done with that thought. Wish you got points for reading this. Sorry, there are no points.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The_Normal_Anomaly's comments
Did you read my link above about my 'katana' stats? I used the names I did to try to avoid the 'katanaz r teh ultimates sword' feeling. I just felt the stats were a niche that needed to be filled, and the pseudo katana/wakazashi do that.
I know the fomula of 'martial two handed/exotic one handed finessable' is more powerful than the 'martial two handed/exotic one handed' of the bastard sword, but is it really that big of a creep?
And is 1d8/18-20x2 that much more powerful than 1d10/19-20x2? I'm seriously asking, as I don't know the numbers. I prefer the 18-20x2 because a) it's a trait common on curved blades in pathfinder and I like curved blades and b) I like rolling crits, so I'll trade damage for it.
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The_Normal_Anomaly's comments
** spoiler omitted **I know the fomula of 'martial two handed/exotic one handed finessable' is more powerful than the 'martial two handed/exotic one handed' of the bastard sword, but is it really that big of a creep?
And is 1d8/18-20x2 that much more powerful than 1d10/19-20x2? I'm seriously asking, as I don't know the numbers. I prefer the 18-20x2 because a) it's a trait common on curved blades in pathfinder and I like curved blades and b) I like rolling crits, so I'll trade damage for it.
At mid-high levels, yes. Crit range means way more than weapon damage. At low levels the difference is pretty negligible.
The main thing is that, at higher levels, you'll never see PCs with Bastard Swords if the Katana is available (from an "optimization" standpoint, as optimized as it would be to burn a feat on 1 extra damage per attack >_>). But that's the same problem as the Greatsword~Falchion thing, or the Longsword~Scimitar problem. Crit range is just awesome.
That said, I still feel like 1d8, 18-20/x2 is the way to go. It fits the comparison of Longsword~Scimitar/Bastard Sword~Katana, which sits pretty well with me.
Recent posts have talked me out of my desire to see it as an exotic 1 handed weapon, I now see how the bastard sword mechanic is necessary. +1 for a 2 handed, finessable, martial weapon that does 1d8 18-20x2 and is usable in 1 hand as an exotic weapon.
I know the fomula of 'martial two handed/exotic one handed finessable' is more powerful than the 'martial two handed/exotic one handed' of the bastard sword, but is it really that big of a creep?
Well, look at it like this. 1d8 18-20/x2 two-handed with exotic one-handed is directly in line with what one would expect of the katana as a curved bastard sword or hand-and-a-half saber. If the bastard sword got some other ability on the exotic weapon proficencey, lets say Brace for the sake of the argument, it would make sense mechanically for the katana to get some special ability on the exotic end. However, as it stands the katana getting one-handed finesse puts it beyond the total bastard sword package is it matched against. Part of my agument is that this potential creep, while probably not game destroying, would make no sense and is totally needless. The katana and the finesse feat have about as much to do with each other as the hanbo and trip. Ability addition should be more thought out than that.
Unless they directly call out the katana design as having been handed to men by some god or fey creature, no way does it get finesse. It already rocks. As it stands "Elves made it" is the only reason why the curve blade gets finesse. It has nothing to do with the weapon, it is just that Elves made it. Lack of the finesse feature does not mean you cannot fight with deft movments. There seems to be some notion that only finesse weapons can have any grace, which is simply a false idea. Finesse does not mean graceful, it means that the weapon relies so little on strength to work that it can be irrelevant to the weapon. That is not the katana.
And is 1d8/18-20x2 that much more powerful than 1d10/19-20x2? I'm seriously asking, as I don't know the numbers. I prefer the 18-20x2 because a) it's a trait common on curved blades in pathfinder and I like curved blades and b) I like rolling crits, so I'll trade damage for it.
Someone else has broken down the weapon DPR quite well, and I direct you to that post here. It is from a falcata thread but the numbers are valid. Essentially compare the bastard sword two-handed to the falchion.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/exoticWeaponsWhatDoYouThink&page=1#32Basically here is the principle to look for: the diffrence in base damage is 1(one) point in favor of the bastard sword using my suggested katana for comparison. However, that point of damage is irrelevant as the game progresses and you accumulate more and more flat bonuses to damage that are multiplied on a critical. The samurai will gain an extreme benefit from this due to being able to take fighter feats for the weapon and the challenge class feature adding his level to damage, as this damage can be multiplied on a critical. This will likely make a high threat range even stronger in their hands than the provided example. Basically, the one point of damage is not important compared to the magnified chance to multiply all the bonuses to damage you posess. As the game progresses, almost regardless of base damage the x4 and 18-20/x2 weapons very much will come out ahead of the 19-20/x2 and x3 weapons. The x4 does better than the 18-20 weapon when attacking targets that can only be hit with a 19 or 20 roll as part of that threat range is ignored. The same issue exists with improved critical with each. With the 15-20/x2, the average damage starts to go down more quickly when a 16 or higher is needed to hit because of the threat range being cut down by a very high AC. As that type of "Can only hit less than 25% of the time" AC is very rare, this benefit of the scythe is ignored in favor of using the falchion for regular combat. Having a VERY much stronger chance to apply one of the critical hit feats is the benefit of the high threat range and is one of the big reasons why it is more desirable than an x4.
I hope that answers that.
It is with that in mind that I have declared the katana to be the better sword in the long run.
This payoff is not immediately felt and gives it a reason for the katana not overtaking other weapons. The lowest level warriors have an absence of large quantities of these bonuses to damage and are better served by the higher base damage of the lower threat weapons because of it. Add to that the katana will likely be more expensive than the bastard sword in a similar way the falchion is 1.5 times more expensive than the great sword, leaving the katana probably sitting around 50 to 55 gold at a low estimate. The common Europeanland man will likely weigh it against a number of other weapons and then look at the cost or base damage and laugh at it.
"Eh wot? It is 37 gold more than a longsword, takes a long training regimine to use in one hand, takes much longer to produce (because of the effects of gold cost to item making), and is just as lethal as the longsword more than 95% of the time. Goodness this blade is foolish. Why, our bastard sword is MORE lethal 95% of the time, and is still easier to make and cheaper to buy. Go get this silly invention away from me."
Cept that was katana vs longsword..You're not alone, bro.I'd fall into the Katana is NOT a bastard sword camp.
My idea for the Katana would be more in lines with an exotic weapon that is more like the Elven Curveblade, but usable with one or two hands.
Don't let the naming business confuse you. The D&D longsword is a single-handed weapon, though you can put two hands on it. The D&D bastard sword is a two-handed weapon that can be wielded with one hand if you're really good.
R. Lee Ermey definitely handles a D&D bastard sword, under this definition. A knightly arming sword is more up the alley of the D&D long sword.
I'll take slight issue with this.
the 3.0 Bastard Sword is a two handed weapon you can learn to use one handed.
The D&D, 1E and 2E bastard sword was a one handed weapon that did better damage when used two-handed, or if you were a half-ogre. It was the best all-around weapon you could use in the game. It was balanced by the fact that 60-65% of magic swords were longswords, and maybe 5% bastard swords. So people used longswords, and rarely bothered with the bastard sword from a loot standpoint.
In an era where you can buy the enchanted weapon, the bastard sword would be a no-brainer.
==Aelryinth
http://www.google.com/search?q=japanese+stick&hl=en&prmd=ivns&t bm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NtmbTcHXHqjh0gGc7aXSAg&am p;ved=0CFQQsAQ
I was looking to buy my special japanese stick, so i can trip people, this is what I found.
On another note, the finesse part of the katana could be a ninja trick, or a feat or a samurai class feature. (something along the lines of dervish dance, which i think is broken)
But if you really think about it, what samurai isn't going to have a really decent strength? an old yoda one?