Marius696's page

My only problem with giving Ninjas katana proficiency off the bat is that it doesn't line up with the current Rogue. I'd like to see maybe an Archetype for the ninja that gives up something simple for katana proficiency (like the Swashbuckler or something), but by itself it's one of those things that just SCREAMS "I'm better than the Rogue!" Since it's based on the Rogue, I feel it should mirror the power level of the Rogue somewhat closely. Now, that's another discussion altogether, but the proficiencies are something that can be easily modified with little effect on the effectiveness of the character.

I have viewed the rogue and ninja, and i honestly feel that a rogue is just as affective as a ninja. Also, a ninja is just another variant of the rogue class, granted it has it's own class stats rather than using the rogue talents. The Ki does not give it that huge of a advantage.

If you want to yell about broken, look at barbarians!! Damage reduction at level 2 to a class that already has d12 hit dice, now that is whacked.

The katana should not be finessable. This would make it too good.

Also, I don't think the ninja should be able to use it. It's not a ninja weapon. It's a soldier's weapon.

..........

Of course, I also feel that Ninjas shouldn't start off with Katana proficiency at all, but /shrug.

A ninja is well versed in almost every weapon that is/was around in Japan during their use.

Granted, they didn't use the very oversized weapons that mounted cavalry might have. The Katana was the largest weapon generally they used.

Now looking back to what the game designers intend (IMO); This is a fantasy game. Attributing it too much to reality would be pointless for a fun & enjoyable game. So they are going to allow leigh way on themes, but they are not going to put something stupendously silly in there either (like a fencer finessing the glaive).

LOL... Small and Silly Discussions are the bread and butter of Forums, Anomaly.
:-)

I suppose we just will not see eye to eye on all points then.

[As it is, they have printed the Aldori Dueling Sword(ADS) which is described to the letter as a katana, just without using the term. The implication is that it does intentionally break the conventions of regular weapons and weapon finesse. The finesse is indeed the whole point of the sword. Two feats, exotic weapon prof and weapon finesse, are needed to turn this weapon into a finesse two-handed sword and this was viewed as potent enough to merit the exotic weapon prof just to unlock the chance to use finesse on what is just a regular longsword. They offered the trait "Sword Scion" that gave an automatic proficencey and a +1 trait bonus to hit with the ADS, and assuming that the Samurai get the ADS type mechanics for the katana I would expect that many samurai characters would take a relevant trait for that if they really wanted to be finesse swordmasters. Over 90% of samurai will be content to just use their bastard sword and not bother with finesse type things. If it gets finesse, and the ability for one-handed use, it will look like the ADS. It will not see an increased threat range like all of the other curved blades, just like that threat range increase was not placed on the ADS.

As i was reading the stats on the Aldori Dueling Sword style in Pathfinder Companion -Inner Sea Primer on page 24 " The following benefits only apply when a swordlord is using an Aldori dueling sword and carrying nothing in his other hand. "

This leads me to believe that the sword is used in one hand to get the full and idealized benefits of the Aldori Dueling Swordlords. The hilt of a longsword generally doesn't allow much space to be held in both hands unless you held the pummel of the weapon to gain extra grip instead of the handle area.
Hence why i believe it is possible to use a weapon effectively in one hand like the katana or the bastard sword.
If you look at the handle of a bastard sword, it has a handle for a hand and a half use opposed to a long sword (1 hand), and a great sword (2 hands). Same as the Katana for it's handle. The hand and half style of a sword allows the wielder to use it effectively with one hand or two hands. While the one hand length handle of a long sword generally is used for predominantly in just one hand (except on occasions when the wielder wanted to put his entire weight behind the swing.). Now a 2 hands handle sword is just too unwieldy any way you use it unless it is used with just that, 2 hands.
I am not sitting here and stating that i am an expert in the uses of the sword, nor a historian of academic level, but when i was younger i would practice choreographed stage combat for various plays, and my acting troop generally used period combat styles for the weapon that was being used. I used a bastard sword generally, however i did use the long sword, and on occasions the 2 handed swords. I found the bastard sword the most comfortable out of all of them due to the versatility of it. 2 Handed swords were generally used to dismount warriors on horses. Long swords were here first, and from there the bastard sword evolved. Finally the Saber and Rapier replaced most of them due to their speed and armor piercing capability.

(Sorry for the Long post as well)

As to 'real Katanas aren't finessable!' RPGs have always straddled the line between fantasy and 'realism' Is it really the end of the world if the katana is finessable?

I agree with Morris on this as well. If the developers decide to make it finesse-able fine, have a ball with the weapon, and enjoy. However if they don't, then pick another weapon finesse the life out if, and have fun as well. Certain people's view on change tend to spark such turmoil and conflict that at times it can be humorous, or just plain annoying on how it's approached.

i agree except that katanas were one-handed weapons. If you have ever taken a Ken-do class in your life the sensi would slap in the back of your head for even attempting to use it one-handed. I agree that it is more like an elven curve blade, still two-handed, but has a finesse option. I say the wakaszashi is a finesse shortsword that deals slashing...so yeah.

Viewing a style like Kendo it tends to emphasize on very heavy strikes, hence why they would probably prefer 8 times out of 10 to use both hands to maximize the impact of each strike. However if you want to have a more fluid and finesse-able style you would have to adjust to use it 1 handed and 2 handed. Using a weapon in both hands at the same time tends to limit your range of motion to certain areas with swing arcs.

That is if we really want compare the weapon to reality and it's uses.

Another way to cover the lost of Survival skill to the ninja is pick up a level or a few of Fighter, and it would still sync up well to cover survival.

I also believe there are traits that can help you acquire different skills that you may be lacking, or receive a plus 1 to it to compensate.

Well still.. I don't think there should be too great of a mechanical difference, elven curved blade should work well enough as a mechanical stance for it.

But i know.. Japanese people aren't elves.. (Not all katanas were made in japan!)

It does seem though like they are making a bastard sword a katana, simply because DnD did it. Which is really strange given that DnD made ninja wis based and now they are trying to make it cha based.

I actually have to agree that the Katana is similar to the Elven Curve Blade, but looking back at the production dates of when the books were released. It seems that the Oriental theme side of Pathfinder had not come into full fruition just yet. Sure there was a mention of the kingdoms of Tian, but (IMO) the developers wanted to focus on the Western Fantasy side of the game first.

With that said, why should it not be possible to a bunch of humans on the other side of the world take a weapon that is similar to one that the elves made (i.e. Elven Curve Blade), and improve or discover a way to make a similar weapon one handed.

I see a large of amount of players debating on this, but everyone is able back up their ideas with sound arguments (most of the time). It is all going to boil down to how the developers feel makes the most sense.

My vote would be make the sword similar to the Curve Blade, Elven; but with the one handed option.

Nowhere does it say that you can use it two-handed without penalty; if you're not proficient in martial weapons, you still take the -4.

I think you're being too literal.

The designers phrased that to be as:
If you use the weapon in one hand with no proficiency then you would suffer the -4, but if used 2 handed it would be no penalties. Since the damage it does would equal some 2-handed weapons that already exist without exotic proficiencies.

....

This all seems possible for a level 2 acrobatic ninja with a double move action, or for my case a Flame Oracle in Agile Breastplate.

Anyhow, I'm open to ideas or impressions, +10 to DC may be too much, additional movement for the 180 degree momentum shift might make sense. Its nothing game breaking other than the ability to possibly scale a sheer surface without magic. If some one already posted something similar, my apologizes, and I'd be curious to read it.

In my opinion with how the movement and system is setup. 60 feet would the be most a ninja would be able to move, but with a possible Super-Ki action enhanced movement.

In other words i think Ki should be involved in what you are suggestion to augment the movements and only with the use of a Ki power.

But that's my opinion because looking at something from our reality like "Parkour". They need a great moment to scale surfaces that are near each other, and even then they are only able to scale up to a certain height within a certain time limit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkour

I know it's 4 months away still before they release the Ultimate Combat source book, but i can't help thinking about the katana.

The two knew variant classes: Samurai and Ninja are suppose to be proficient in the katana.

This stimulates me thoughts into thinking is this sword going to be a finesse-able weapon or not?
The Pre-test tells us to use the weapon like a Bastard sword for now, but i view this weapon to be more fluid in use rather than straight hack & slash.

I do remember that the wakazashi was similar to a short sword as well, except with the difference that it's slashing and not piercing like a short swords weapon damage. (just pointing out differences from older 3.5 systems previously.)

Anyone have an opinion or insight into this thought on the katana or the new weapons?

...........

If you're going to rock the bastard sword, I don't think you'll need weapon finesse. If you're going to stick with weapon finesse, you might want to go with the Aldori dueling sword.

You know... i was thinking of the Aldori Dueling Sword.... just didn't remember which book to find it in. Do you know which book the weapon was in?

I was holding onto the Bastard Sword and Finesse since they have not released the Katana stats yet, and i have a suspicion that the developers may make the Katana Finessable.
But holding out for it and being disappointed may occur.
hmmm....
Good thing i left 2 feat slots open for just occasions.

What weapon were you going to use? Kukri? Maybe spamming shuriken?

The standard Ki ability that grants an extra attack for 1 point is great because it adds one more attack at your highest iteration.

The +20 feet to move is also good for escapes.

For a TWF, my favorite trick is Acrobatic Master: +20 to acrobatics means you will probably get away free if you need to, no matter how outnumbered and boxed in you are. Helpful because a TWF Ninja is DPR, not a tank.

Other than that, it depends on you weapon.

If you go hand to hand, you probably want to take the bonus to sneak things that add bleed, stat damage or prevent AoO.

If you go ranged, you want ki charge, deadly range, flurry of stars, etc.

I apologize, i did not list a weapon intentionally due to the matter that i started playing this character recently with a bastard sword, but due to the story arc the character started to gravitate towards the ninja. The matter also is that he would not be able to find an instructor till lvl 3 going on 4. So i took the feat EWP: Bastard Sword and a light weapon in my other hand for the mean time till the penalties are lowered. I left the weapon focus vague and the specialization in order to see if anyone had a great recommendation and not side tracked by my early choice. I still have an opportunity to change the character before he hits level 2 due to the rule my group put into effect about changing the character. ("no redos" lol)

whoops.. i got the levels of fighter wrong in the parenthesis... at character lvl 9 the character is suppose to be at 4th level fighter. Which lowers the other ones proceeding by one on the fighter level parenthesis.

reason i wanted to take Two Weapon Warrior from the Advance Players Guide was due to its great ability to reduce the penalty for two weapon fighting especially when the weapons are one handed martial weapons and not light weapons.

Again.. anyone out there with suggestions on the feats if they see a better route? Or character progression???

I was currently looking for some hints/suggestions on a concept i was doing.
Taking the playtesting Ninja as it is out now and combining it with Two Weapon Warrior.

This is what i have so far stated out to lvl 20.

Race: Human

Fighter first 3 levels
Followed by 5 levels of Nijna; and finishing the rest with fighter to 20.

Starting Base Stats with Racial Modifier:
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 16

Stats would continue with Dex being raised at every 4th level.

Feats:
Weapon Focus (lvl 1) [Fighter]

Toughness (1) [Fighter]

Two Weapon Fighting (1) [Fighter]

Two Weapon Defense (lvl 2) [Fighter]

Weapon Finese (lvl 3) [Fighter]

Double Slice (lvl 5) [Ninja lvl 2]

Improved Two Weapon Fighting (lvl 7) [Ninja lvl 4]

Weapon Specialization (lvl 9) [Fighter 5]

Improved Critical (lvl 10) [Fighter 6]

Critical Focus (lvl 11) [Fighter 7]

Penetratring Strike (lvl 12) [Fighter 8]

Greater Weapon Focus (lvl 13) [Fighter 9]

Bleeding Critical (lvl 14) [Fighter 10]

Greater Two Weapon Fighting (lvl 15) [Fighter 11]

Greater Weapon Specialization (lvl 16) [Fighter 12]

Blinding Critical (lvl 17) [Fighter 13]

Critical mastery (lvl 18) [Fighter 14]

===================================

I have not really decided on the Ninja Tricks to take to help along with the two weapon warrior. Suggestions would be welcomed. As would any recommendations on replacing the feats i had chosen.

Kilmore wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Do you really have your heart set on the bastard sword? Because this might be a better choice.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency Sword and Sheath
Requirements: Martial Proficiency Longsword, Martial Proficiency Warhammer, Weapon Focus Longsword
Benefit: A character who has this feat can treat a Longsword and accompanying scabbard as a double-weapon, the longsword dealing 1d8/1d6(19-20/x2)slashing, and the scabbard functioning as a Warhammer 1d8/1d6(20/x3)bludgeoning. For the purpose of dual-wielding, the longsword and scabbard are treated as a double-weapon (the scabbard deals 1/2 Strength and Power Attack bonuses, and the penalty is -2/-2). For purposes of weapon specific feats and class abilities (Such as Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery) the scabbard benefits as if it were a Longsword.

Great crap! 1d8 damage?!? Does the scabbard have a cinder block in it?

Compare to Double-Axe/Double-Sword, which are typically seen as underpowered for exotic weapons. (Also, having weapons that deal different damage dice while dual-wielding just really annoys me lol, the different crit ranges is annoying enough, but I figured I should stick to the Warhammer template.)

Actually... the scabbard does 1d6 with a crit range of 18-20/x2

I do realize the feat could be written more clearly, but it is left vague so the DM can decide what feats it applies to, and the BAB is high because such a thing should not be given away lightly IMHO.

No... i completely agree... cause i saw that the Two Weapon Warrior doesn't get that till level 17th .... so maybe i might have to bite the bullet and wait as Quandary suggested earlier.

"Perfect Balance (Ex): At 15th level, the penalties for
fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1
for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved
balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand,
treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light
weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 4. " 'Advance Player's Guide page 109'

Heh, it's a great show. Do you happen to remember what episode it was in? I'd like to track that down and watch what you're trying to imitate.

It was in Season 3 episode 4: Sokka's Master...

the Master was just funny, and his fighting style was impressive if all the elemental bending was not around; he would have been the badass.

But moving back to the Topic at hand... i can either go Weapon Master in one bladed weapon, and just have the scabbard around to do the neat tricks, ooooooorrrr, i have to go the route of Two Weapon Warrior to use the Combat Scabbard, bladed as a weapon too.

this one is a tough one.

Suggestion.

Propose to your GM a feat that declares Bastard Sword and Sheath as a double-weapon so to speak. A feat seems like a reasonable price to pay to be a Kensei (weapon master) of the 'Sword and Sheath.' (Hell, I know I'd also let you have the weapon custom made in such a way that the sheath could attach to the hilt for use as a pole-arm double weapon as well, if desired.)

Actually... not sure about that.. we were thinking of trying to limit the house rules to maybe less then a handful, and if i ask for one specially for my class i feel i would be abusing it.

But if by chance they don't mind i would slightly alter your suggestion in treating the scabbard as a light weapon instead of a normal martial one handed weapon since the damage dice is only a 1d6.
Main reason that this is all driving me nuts is for the combat tricks they have for Heavy Blade Scabbards in Adventurers Armory. All i could think about after that was a style of kung fu with a chinese bastard sword i saw in an Animated Series of Avatar: the Last Air-bender... *uber geek alert!!!* :)

I was looking at the whole -4/-4 for dual wielding the Scabbard and Sword at the same time.
While i don't agree with that... seeing that from a mechanical point of view the Scabbard should not weigh as much as the sword, but the game designers have it stated out so. Probably something to do with the reinforcement it needs to resist the attacks and not shattering.

I am going to examine what Quandary mentioned closer... while i really wanted to do a Kensei, type fighter.. i.e. the Weapon Master... if i want to dual wield i may have to look at the 2WF variant closer and adept it till i get the necessary feats.

Recently my game group has decided to start a new game, and i came across a particular style that interested me for a pure thematic point of view, but i am actually trying to make it work.
I wanted to do a Fighter - Weapon Master (from the advance players guide), and dual wielding weapons (the off hand weapon would be the heavy blade combat scabbard from the Adventurers Armory).
I saw the Combat Equipment Tricks in the Adventurers Armory, and that sold me on the style for Heavy Blade Scabbard Tricks, but i am facing that i am not sure how to make it work for a Human Fighter that wishes to dual wield as well.
Any suggestions on the feat progressions???
So far i only have Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword; Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword; Two Weapon FIghting.

Thanks.