I'm glad I picked up the first print, the flesh-toned reprint looked absurd; I wonder if the artwork changed as well. I didn't know BoVD got a 3.5 update.
I'll see if I can't do something with the PrCs over the weekend.
I didn't know BoVD got a 3.5 update.
It did not. It was 3.0. Some of the content was later updated in other products (some spells are in the Spell Compendium with alterations to be independent of other rules in the BoVD, for example), but the BoVD was not revised (except perhaps by fans).
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The BoVD suffered badly from interactions with other rules between 3.0 and 3.5.
The hive mind rules in BoVD, partnered up with the new Swarm type in 3.5, for instance, led to mass insanity, like swarms with Sorcerer caster levels in the hundreds.
Diseases like the one that gave ever-increasing amounts of natural armor, combined with PrCs or Domain abilities that allowed one to avoid the ill effects of diseases, while remaining a carrier, also ended up becoming infinite loops of abusability.
Adjusting for silliness like this, there were some pretty nifty ideas tucked away in there.
Avoid the sacrifice-for-power rules (replace them with Incantations that require sacrifices, perhaps?), the Liquid Pain stuff, misuse of diseases and hivemind rules, and the soul-searing picture on p. 152, and it's not a bad book. :)
and the soul-searing picture on p. 152
Damn it, you made me look! I like 1/3rd of that picture, actually, but..
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
and the soul-searing picture on p. 152Damn it, you made me look! I like 1/3rd of that picture, actually, but..
I found the thralls of orcus or or the pregnant drider more disturbing ...
What i found truly disturbing is what i like to call scatter splat which is to say that during the development of a project like Tovd taking a full half of the content for that project and scattering it through 6 or more other splat books, for example ghost walk, exemplars of evil, libermortis, frostburn, the fiendish codex 1 and 2, sandstorm, etc...
I hereby humbly request that in the event of sum enterprising soul attempting this most noble of conversion projects that all the content be gathered from these scattered sources
Has anyone done a conversion for this? I think it was one of the best supplements to come out of the 3.5 line.
What exactly are you looking to convert? With the exception of some of the "Optional Rules" that can be broken into the aforementioned infinity loops, was there something you had in mind?
Is it feats. PrCs.
Here are some items in this book not worth converting because updated material is available.
-The Lords of the Nine-Hells.
-ALOT of the optional rules.
My only interaction of the BoVD was a player who used the feats and abilities in the book to create the most absurd overpowered rogue/sorcerer thing I've ever encountered. There were times my character just folded his arms, sat down and watched.
My only interaction of the BoVD was a player who used the feats and abilities in the book to create the most absurd overpowered rogue/sorcerer thing I've ever encountered. There were times my character just folded his arms, sat down and watched.
Do you remember any specifics on the build?
My only interaction of the BoVD was a player who used the feats and abilities in the book to create the most absurd overpowered rogue/sorcerer thing I've ever encountered. There were times my character just folded his arms, sat down and watched.Do you remember any specifics on the build?
I sort of made it a point not to know. I don't understand the appeal of playing that sort of character. It turned me off the BoVD pretty much completely.
Here's an example. In our final big boss fight we were in a chamber with magma channels and fighting a big efreet. We were level 7 I think. His character was dragged by the efreet into one of the magma channels.
On his turn we expected him to do an escape and climb out of the magma. Instead he just stood there, did a full attack and pretty much one shot the efreet with about six sneak attacks or something insane.
Then he calmly walked out of the magma.
You sure it was BoVD? The closest thing to immunity to fire is the Disciple of Mephistopheles’s fire resistance at level 2 and its improvement at level 6. And the only thing I can find that would be for a ‘sort-of’ Sorcerer/Rouge build is the Thrall of Grz’zt…but its effects only work with spells not normal attacks.
Me thinks your player was cheating and no one realized it, unless he was a race with fire immunity and had another Prestige Class that did most of the work what you describe is not possible (without MAJOR houserules).
You sure it was BoVD? The closest thing to immunity to fire is the Disciple of Mephistopheles’s fire resistance at level 2 and its improvement at level 6. And the only thing I can find that would be for a ‘sort-of’ Sorcerer/Rouge build is the Thrall of Grz’zt…but its effects only work with spells not normal attacks.
Me thinks your player was cheating and no one realized it, unless he was a race with fire immunity and had another Prestige Class that did most of the work what you describe is not possible (without MAJOR houserules).
Well, I'm sure he wasn't cheating, I'm sure he was using things as written out of books. All I know is he had his nose in that book all the time.
He had something that allowed him to speak some evil word and it would create different effects and send our paladin into a rage. He had something that allowed him to gain sneak attacks with some hidden dagger. He had something that allowed him to gain sneak attack on attacks normally not granting sneak attack...
But I have no doubt he wasn't "cheating." He took great pride in building his characters. He may have been using other books too, but it was BoVD that he was constantly handing over to the GM to read.
I decided that I would not allow that book in any campaign.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Avoid the sacrifice-for-power rules (replace them with Incantations that require sacrifices, perhaps?), the Liquid Pain stuff, misuse of diseases and hivemind rules, and the soul-searing picture on p. 152, and it's not a bad book. :)
Why soul-searing? I LOVE Belial and Fierna; they're the heads of my homebrew world's diabolic pantheon, in fact. The overtones of incest are a bit risque, perhaps, but that only adds depth to the characterization of these particular fiends, IMO.
We are speaking of the book of VILE DARKNESS.
This material is inherently evil and any paladin would receive a bemused grin and a pat on the head from his deity for doing very mean (read wearing there face as a hat through 3 kingdom’s) and painful things to any one employing such arts no questions asked.
This material was intended IMO to allow the DM more options for his villain’s, thus the power creep. Gotta keep those pesky adventurer's on their toes doncha know.
The book of Exalted Deeds has some pretty powerful stuff as well as a counter balance to all this vile darkness stuff.
We are speaking of the book of VILE DARKNESS.
This material is inherently evil and any paladin would receive a bemused grin and a pat on the head from his deity for doing very mean (read wearing there face as a hat through 3 kingdom’s) and painful things to any one employing such arts no questions asked.
This material was intended IMO to allow the DM more options for his villain’s, thus the power creep. Gotta keep those pesky adventurer's on their toes doncha know.
The book of Exalted Deeds has some pretty powerful stuff as well as a counter balance to all this vile darkness stuff.
I think it's just unqualified power creep, especially if BoED did it too. What's the point in making villains more powerful if PCs are too?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What's the point in making villains more powerful if PCs are too?
To sell more books.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, I'm sure he wasn't cheating, I'm sure he was using things as written out of books. All I know is he had his nose in that book all the time.
He had something that allowed him to speak some evil word and it would create different effects and send our paladin into a rage.
Dark Speach, legit.
He had something that allowed him to gain sneak attacks with some hidden dagger.
Not from BoVD.
He had something that allowed him to gain sneak attack on attacks normally not granting sneak attack...
I dont know of any books that allows that, not even BoVd. Sneak Attack only works when a target is denied thier dexterity or flanked. While things like the Bluff skill can let some create such situations I know of no class or feat that allows someone to sneak attack regardless.
But I have no doubt he wasn't "cheating." He took great pride in building his characters. He may have been using other books too, but it was BoVD that he was constantly handing over to the GM to read.
I decided that I would not allow that book in any campaign.
By the sound of it most of his build seems to be from other books, perhaps he simply kept passing back the Book for things like Dark Speach or some spells that were used infrequently.
Either way it seems Book of Vile Darkness is innocent (now that's an oxymoron!)
Either way it seems Book of Vile Darkness is innocent (now that's an oxymoron!)
No, I don't think so. Even just the dark speech was a pain to deal with. I think most of his awesomeness was from BoVD because that's the book he kept pushing on me to read and buff up my character. So I'm pretty sure that HE thought his awesomeness was mostly from BoVD.
Is there anything in BoVD that gives full attacks when you might otherwise not be able to get one? Because he sure seemed to be doing several attacks per round even when it seemed he shouldn't. Does anything (like Darkspeech) allow him to make a target flat footed or otherwise remove their Dex bonus? I think he had something that allowed him to use bluff or feint as a swift action. Plus he had some magic abilities I don't remember seeing in any other game which were ideal for a rogue.
I'll ask my GM if he remembers the build. That player moved away but he may have left a character sheet with the GM.
He was a great player, a lot of fun and was one of the best role players I've ever played with. But his builds were the most super optimized builds I've ever played with, and I am the one who usually gets accused (falsely, I must say) of being a power gamer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
BoVD... this book is useful, but entirely too disturbing for me. I somehow always end up feeling dirty after using it when I GM.
*shudder*
Honestly I'd rather see conversions for BoED. In either case a lot of the material should still be useable.
dot
If anyone has done a conversion of this book for Pathfinder, PLEASE let me know! I draw heavily on this book for my current game and would love updated information to use. I love making a BBEG that the players can really, REALLY hate. There's something very satisfying about removing a truly vile evil from the world in a very permanent way, don't you think?
In particular, I would like to see updated rules to do with the Incantations, sacrifice and liquid pain (the very things that were so broken are also the most interesting).
I made some adjustments to the Hive-mind rules I think make them usable. I'll post them later, once I've written them all up.
|
The part that I'd want to convert would be the kythons; a sort of xenomorph-styled abberation that form broods, get bigger and more dangerous, and are smarter than they look. Though nowadays, people would get them confused with kytons at first, the scariest part, to me, about them is how the small-sized baby ones have bite damage that would now be listed for a huge monster.
My first Pathfinder character was actually inspired by it (by way of the Vashar Plateau). Though he was technically amoral, I put him down as NE. I asked the GM if I could make him an Ur-priest, because at that point I didn't realize that its spell progression was a bit overpowered.
Though I still like the spell that makes your hand fall off and turn into a spider!
I think it's just unqualified power creep, especially if BoED did it too. What's the point in making villains more powerful if PCs are too?We are speaking of the book of VILE DARKNESS.
This material is inherently evil and any paladin would receive a bemused grin and a pat on the head from his deity for doing very mean (read wearing there face as a hat through 3 kingdom’s) and painful things to any one employing such arts no questions asked.
This material was intended IMO to allow the DM more options for his villain’s, thus the power creep. Gotta keep those pesky adventurer's on their toes doncha know.
The book of Exalted Deeds has some pretty powerful stuff as well as a counter balance to all this vile darkness stuff.
What exactly did you find to be the power creep in those books?
The PrCs were all pretty bad, certainly not as powerful as PrCs in other sources.
There were a few problematic feats mostly in BoED (Vow of Poverty, Ancestral Relic), but otherwise they weren't bad.
The spells that were OP came with ability score damage costs. . .
I will admit that my Druid character who used both Exalted and Vile spells was perhaps a bit cheesy, but of themselves they weren't bad.
One feat I love is The Dark Speech? How do you recommend to covert that?
I have the bovd and I would say keep it as is.
If the hivemind attains a Charisma score of 18 or higher, it gains the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer. For every point of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorcerer. A hivemind of 4,000 rats has a Charisma of 20, so it would cast spells as a 5th-level sorcerer, for example. The hivemind has six cantrips, eight 1st-level spells, and six 2nd-level spell slots each day. Any single creature can cast one of the hivemind’s spells, but those spell slots are then lost to other creatures in the hivemind. Creatures in a hivemind have no need for somatic or material components, and their squeaks, screeches, or clicks serve as verbal components and the hivemind gets Eschew Components as a bonus feat.
The hivemind swarm starts with a base of 3HD and increases by 1HD for every 2 points of Int over 5. So a 28 Int/Cha swarm would have 8000 individuals, 15HD, as well as spellcasting of an 11th level Sorcerer.
The hivemind is in constant instantaneous communication while withing 30 feet of another member of the hivemind. No individual will voluntarily move beyond this limit, and any forced beyond this limit lose communication and will do all they can to return to the hivemind swarm. When creatures in a hivemind attack, they all gain a +1 insight bonus on their spellcasting attack rolls and a +1 insight bonus to their Armor Class. Each creature knows the actions of every other member of the hivemind, and all are aware of anything one individual is aware of.
So for sure BOVD is a 3.0 book? I'm trying to find a copy vs. downloading a PDF of it and I've only seen a 3.0 version but I could swear there was a 3.5.
I've only ever seen one during 3rd edition. I think they made a version for 4th edition but I'm not too sure.
There was only one version. It (and Book of Exalted Deeds)was released during the transition from 3.0 to 3.5, and the rules included a bit of an amalgamation of the rule sets. Because these books shared the shelf in bookstores with the 3.5 core books, many people assumed they were the first 3.5 releases, when they were really the last major 3.0 releases.
The rules in both suffered from power creep. Several feats and spells got revamped (nerfed, actually) for 3.5 in later products.
In my games, I pull the occasional thing from BOVD, but I always take a close look to make sure it's balanced before I use it. And only use it for NPCs-- it's generally not allowed for my players to use.
If the BoVD got to you, I recommend not going near anything by Black Dog Game Factory (the imprint that White Wolf use when they want to get really dark)
I'm gonna have to go check that out. I could always use more inspiration.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Several of the concepts from BOVD were re-used for 3.5 in later product releases. Examples are corrupt spells and vile feats, which were included in a revamped form in Heroes of Horror.
The 3.5 versions of a few spells also got slightly-less-dark names. The one that comes to mind is the BOVD spell mindrape, which was republished essentially unchanged in the 3.5 Spell Compendium as programmed amnesia. I recall that there were a few others, but the specifics escape me at the moment.
Well at least it didn't make up unique poisons that wernt called poisons that inflicted disproportionate hell on the victim... Oh Wait... The "good" book did that.
But they weren't poisons, just ravages. . . right? Right?
But the Assassin PrC required you to be evil.
|
Well at least it didn't make up unique poisons that wernt called poisons that inflicted disproportionate hell on the victim... Oh Wait... The "good" book did that.But they weren't poisons, just ravages. . . right? Right?
But the Assassin PrC required you to be evil.
Ah I love those nasty little Assassin spells. I miss them.. sod it I miss Assassin's having spells period.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah I love those nasty little Assassin spells. I miss them.. sod it I miss Assassin's having spells period.Well at least it didn't make up unique poisons that wernt called poisons that inflicted disproportionate hell on the victim... Oh Wait... The "good" book did that.But they weren't poisons, just ravages. . . right? Right?
But the Assassin PrC required you to be evil.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hi.Ah I love those nasty little Assassin spells. I miss them.. sod it I miss Assassin's having spells period.Well at least it didn't make up unique poisons that wernt called poisons that inflicted disproportionate hell on the victim... Oh Wait... The "good" book did that.But they weren't poisons, just ravages. . . right? Right?
But the Assassin PrC required you to be evil.
THOSE DON'T COUNT!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
THOSE DON'T COUNT!Hi.Ah I love those nasty little Assassin spells. I miss them.. sod it I miss Assassin's having spells period.Well at least it didn't make up unique poisons that wernt called poisons that inflicted disproportionate hell on the victim... Oh Wait... The "good" book did that.But they weren't poisons, just ravages. . . right? Right?
But the Assassin PrC required you to be evil.
Well, its a different assassin with spells, but not the same spell list or abilities the old one had.
Fortunately, in home games you can just use the previous version if you liked it better?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
THOSE DON'T COUNT!Hi.Ah I love those nasty little Assassin spells. I miss them.. sod it I miss Assassin's having spells period.Well at least it didn't make up unique poisons that wernt called poisons that inflicted disproportionate hell on the victim... Oh Wait... The "good" book did that.But they weren't poisons, just ravages. . . right? Right?
But the Assassin PrC required you to be evil.
Well, its a different assassin with spells, but not the same spell list or abilities the old one had.
Fortunately, in home games you can just use the previous version if you liked it better?
Actually we just run it as the new version with the old version spells :3
That works too :) Has anyone made a CIre assassin class for PF?
That works too :) Has anyone made a CIre assassin class for PF?Cire Assassin?
Core, sorry, extreme typo fail-- has anyone done a core 20 level Assassin class for Pathfinder?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Core, sorry, extreme typo fail-- has anyone done a core 20 level Assassin class for Pathfinder?That works too :) Has anyone made a CIre assassin class for PF?Cire Assassin?