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I like a lot of the changes from the old gunslinger to the new gunslinger.
I do not, however like the gunslinger very much, as it is for one very basic reason.
It has too many mechanics for what is at root a very simple concept.
What I think we want in a gunslinger is a person who is amazing with a gun.
Be it Roland Deschain or and of Clint Eastwood's men with no names, a gunslinger is almost by definition a very straight-forward concept.
The current gunslinger class...not so straight forward.
So what do I want that will be an advantage over the current version.
1. Quick draw. If you want to make it an option at first level between quick draw and something more rifle or even scattergun based, fine. But gunslingers have quick draw. They just do.
2. At a reasonable level, no misfire chance. Because at a reasonable level we expect a gunslinger to do what they do best without worrying about misfires. It should not be at first level, as it shouldn't be something you can do with a dip level, but it should happen. A decrease of one to misfire chance every 4 levels or so sounds reasonable to me.
3. Reloading as a free-action: This is more Roland than Clint, but only because we never worried that our white hatted cowboy would have to reload his never ending supply of bullets. Perhaps as part of a...
4. Rapid fire mechanic similar to a monks flurry of blows that allows two weapon wielding with firearms only, scaling the same way flurry of blows does. Get rid of the feat tax required to do what the class is made to do.
5. A good Will save. Because if anything gunslingers are stubborn. I know that is part of why there is the push to make wisdom more valuable, but the gunslinger doesn't have a low will save. I know this makes him a three save character, but I'm ok with that when you consider...
What am I willing to give up for the above.
1. He doesn't need medium armor. Light armor is fine. I think this is already in the works.
2. Grit. Grit is an overly complicated list of feats corresponding to points that could just as easily be a list of feats. If you really want to keep specific ones, make them class features, but otherwise just make the list gunslinger feats. Give them gunslinger bonus feats similar to rogue talents.
3. Bravery: You don't need it if you make it a good will save.
4. Make him 3/4 BaB. What you say? Blasphemy you say? With guns being touch attack he doesn't need to also be able to have full BaB with weapons other than guns. He is a gunslinger, not a fighter. With all good saves, going down to d8 hitpoints is perfectly reasonable, and this would discourage level dips by full BAB classes looking for firearm proficiency.
Before anyone says it, a gunslinger is not a musketeer. If we want a musketeer variant or prestige, fine. But that isn't a gunslinger, that is a swordsman who happens to carry muskets.
5. Gun training. I know, I know, but if you are giving up the misfire chance, you have to give something up for balance sake when you consider misfires are the balancing factor for guns.
I think the class I describe above would be a lot simpler to play than the proposed class. You could still have the deeds be feats or features available at appropriate levels, so they wouldn't be out. But this way the class isn't built around recordkeeping.
John Wayne wouldn't be about recording grit points.
John Wayne is about shooting people with guns.
I like the idea of the gunslinger being more of the debuffer of the melee classes honestly -- the shooting stuff out of people's hands, shooting their limbs and rendering them unable to use them, causing fear effects with missed shots, tripping at range, and so forth are all "classic" firearm tricks that I would like to see more of with the gunslinger.
I think this is a great place to make a martial class that isn't simply all about the damage in a variant way.
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I like the idea of the gunslinger being more of the debuffer of the melee classes honestly -- the shooting stuff out of people's hands, shooting their limbs and rendering them unable to use them, causing fear effects with missed shots, tripping at range, and so forth are all "classic" firearm tricks that I would like to see more of with the gunslinger.
I think this is a great place to make a martial class that isn't simply all about the damage in a variant way.
Ranged combat maneuvers are a way to go with gunslinger feats.
I just don't like the amount of moving parts in what should be a very simple concept. There is absolutely no need for a point system mechanic in a gunslinger class.
Ranged combat maneuvers are a way to go with gunslinger feats.
I just don't like the amount of moving parts in what should be a very simple concept. There is absolutely no need for a point system mechanic in a gunslinger class.
I just want to stop right here a moment and comment on this idea:
Guns are very simple tools no? Barrel, powder, shot, flame. About all there really is to it.
However look at the number of moving parts on a modern gun or indeed on a flintlock or wheellock for that matter. Consider also the earliest revolvers and pepperboxes -- which again ended up being extremely complicated for such a simple idea.
Perhaps it is inevitable then that a class build around such devices would end up being just as complicated as the weapons it uses?
It certainly has a certain -- rightness to it at least on that front :D
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Ranged combat maneuvers are a way to go with gunslinger feats.
I just don't like the amount of moving parts in what should be a very simple concept. There is absolutely no need for a point system mechanic in a gunslinger class.
I just want to stop right here a moment and comment on this idea:
Guns are very simple tools no? Barrel, powder, shot, flame. About all there really is to it.
However look at the number of moving parts on a modern gun or indeed on a flintlock or wheellock for that matter. Consider also the earliest revolvers and pepperboxes -- which again ended up being extremely complicated for such a simple idea.
Perhaps it is inevitable then that a class build around such devices would end up being just as complicated as the weapons it uses?
It certainly has a certain -- rightness to it at least on that front :D
Because there is a need for more things to slow down the game...
The firearms already have an added mechanic with the misfire chance, do we really need them also to have an ever changing pool of resources to keep track of at the table?
Do we really want the gunslinger to have a "kill stealing" mechanic?
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I like what you're doing here. I think now that it's not a Fighter variant, they missed a good time to drop the class down to a 3/4 BAB and let that nerf alone allow the Gunslinger to be better at the whole shooting a gun thing.
I don't like the Grit mechanic very much but I do think they should have a pool of some kind of limited resource to use on good class abilities. More the size of a Ki Pool or Arcane Pool but with no wacky recharges.
I think the whole variant system is weird. Why not just introduce new classes? It makes them do weird things to shoehorn these ideas into existing class features. The Samurai is a good example of this. Why does he have a horse? Because the Cavalier does.
Why does the Gunslinger look like the barely playable mess he is? Because of the bad idea that is variants.
I think the whole variant system is weird. Why not just introduce new classes? It makes them do weird things to shoehorn these ideas into existing class features.
I like variant classes, but in the case of the gunslinger, I agree it's weird.
The Samurai is a good example of this. Why does he have a horse? Because the Cavalier does.
Oooor because samurai where originally primarily mounted warriors?
Thats one way to go about it.
On the other hand, I do kind of like grit. But it has some serious flaws, notably because its a point based power source that starts very low and never adds more uses as the gunslinger levels up (I dont believe any other similar system is so restricted). The only way to increase the amount of grit you have is to increase a stat with no other supported uses for the class, or to take a feat in a class thats starved for feats.
And that is where I see a problem with your idea of just converting all these abilities to feats. To be an effective dual pistols gunslinger (which is what it seems like your going for here) your already looking at point blank shot, weapon focus, rapid reload, and then probably dodge and mobility to open up the existing good grit feats, precise shot, and probably extra grit as well (as things stand). If your going for a two weapon build, you also need the TWF tree and some variant of oversized weapon fighting (all pistols are 1-handed weapons). If you swap all the gunslinger abilities to feats....you would need a bonus feat progression better than the fighter just to account for the basic stuff.
Then there is the problem that if you make all of these abilities feats, other classes can take them. At which point, why not just play a fighter and get better proficiencies and nice side benefits in the bargain?
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I like what you're doing here. I think now that it's not a Fighter variant, they missed a good time to drop the class down to a 3/4 BAB and let that nerf alone allow the Gunslinger to be better at the whole shooting a gun thing.
I don't like the Grit mechanic very much but I do think they should have a pool of some kind of limited resource to use on good class abilities. More the size of a Ki Pool or Arcane Pool but with no wacky recharges.
I think the whole variant system is weird. Why not just introduce new classes? It makes them do weird things to shoehorn these ideas into existing class features. The Samurai is a good example of this. Why does he have a horse? Because the Cavalier does.
Why does the Gunslinger look like the barely playable mess he is? Because of the bad idea that is variants.
I'm fine with variants personally. I'm not a big fan of point pools, and I'm really not a fan of point pools with weird mechanics to re-fill them throughout the day.
I think you can have the deeds be "x times per day" feats, which would allow you to have access to the "cool" features without the mechanics that require more table record keeping and slow the game down.
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Thats one way to go about it.
On the other hand, I do kind of like grit. But it has some serious flaws, notably because its a point based power source that starts very low and never adds more uses as the gunslinger levels up (I dont believe any other similar system is so restricted). The only way to increase the amount of grit you have is to increase a stat with no other supported uses for the class, or to take a feat in a class thats starved for feats.
And that is where I see a problem with your idea of just converting all these abilities to feats. To be an effective dual pistols gunslinger (which is what it seems like your going for here) your already looking at point blank shot, weapon focus, rapid reload, and then probably dodge and mobility to open up the existing good grit feats, precise shot, and probably extra grit as well (as things stand). If your going for a two weapon build, you also need the TWF tree and some variant of oversized weapon fighting (all pistols are 1-handed weapons). If you swap all the gunslinger abilities to feats....you would need a bonus feat progression better than the fighter just to account for the basic stuff.
Then there is the problem that if you make all of these abilities feats, other classes can take them. At which point, why not just play a fighter and get better proficiencies and nice side benefits in the bargain?
This is why I included the flurry-like mechanic for fire-arm, which would functionally be the TWF/Rapid reload chain for fire arms only in the same way flurry of blows is now functionally full BAB TWF chain for monks.
And you don't have to make them feats others can access. Look how many feats have class re-requisites. Or use a mechanic like rogue talents, which are functionally rogue only feats. You could also go the ranger-like combat training access to feats even if you don't meet pre-requisites.
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Actually, the gunslinger as it is now still looks too much like a fighter to me. I know bravery will be changed, but a 3/4 BaB with d8 HD would have make more sense : the gunslinger is thin, agile and has a strong will, but is not as resilient and muscular as a true fighter.
Maybe being able to hit touch AC from a better range (+50%?) and use ranged combat manoeuvres would be best than gun training (that is too reminiscent of the fighter's Weapon training). With this and an automatic misfire risk reduction when gaining levels, the gunslinger would really be the combat debuffer class, the one able to shoot a lot and hit almost every time at low damage (pistoleer/shotguneer) and without risk, or able to hit easily ONE time, but at heavy damage (musketeer/sniper).
Still less powerful than a bow fighter, but able to handle more situations, pierce through DR like butter and control the battlefield where the fighter just inflicts constant damage.
Grit could be used to attack with full BAB and to slow time at high levels (bullet-time !... hey, monks of the Four Winds can already do it !), to increase the touch AC range, to avoid a malus when attempting a ranged combat manoeuvre... well, I hope the suggestions that were written in this topic will be taken into consideration, since they really make sense and do of the gunslinger a really unique class, and most importantly, true to it's concept.
I continue to believe the actual gunslinger looks too much like an aborted fighter variant which don't get enough customization, and isn't as awesome with a gun as it should be. 3/4 BAB, strong saves, better touch AC range, lower misfire risks, battlefield control, some deeds as class features and the others as gunslinger talents... are nice ideas that I would utterly prefer to see in the final Gunslinger instead of the actual version that is good but not as much as it could be.
Because there is a need for more things to slow down the game...The firearms already have an added mechanic with the misfire chance, do we really need them also to have an ever changing pool of resources to keep track of at the table?
Do we really want the gunslinger to have a "kill stealing" mechanic?
Oh you misunderstand me -- I'm not necessarily arguing against you this time -- I'm just trying to say, "Take another look at it -- what seems like a simple thing might be a lot more complicated than you thing because it has to be that complicated even if we don't want it to be."
I'm not entirely sure on that thought -- but that's all I'm trying to say.
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Because there is a need for more things to slow down the game...The firearms already have an added mechanic with the misfire chance, do we really need them also to have an ever changing pool of resources to keep track of at the table?
Do we really want the gunslinger to have a "kill stealing" mechanic?
Oh you misunderstand me -- I'm not necessarily arguing against you this time -- I'm just trying to say, "Take another look at it -- what seems like a simple thing might be a lot more complicated than you thing because it has to be that complicated even if we don't want it to be."
I'm not entirely sure on that thought -- but that's all I'm trying to say.
Fair enough.
I think at this point the gunslinger is the kind of class that requires $more bookkeeping than it should. I think everything that we want to accomplish with the class can be done without having to create new mechanics.
I am not saying all classes need to be this way.but it seems to me this class isn't that complex conceptually. I actually think they underdid it with the ninja.
I have been playing a gunslinger in a savage tide campaign and have just hit level 5. Gunslingers dont "need" quick draw. I have been playing a TWF gunslinger and havent had to take quick draw.
First thing that happens in a combat is i move into range drawing my pistols as part of my move. I dont need the feat.
Also if rapid reload reduces a standard action reload to a move action and then you use paper cartridges it's not a free action, it would be a swift action.
I do like the idea of giving gunslingers Trick Shot from the archer fighter archetype. Allowing them to disarm or sunder at range but not grappling. Grappling with an arrow or bullet doesnt really make any sense to be honest.
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I have been playing a gunslinger in a savage tide campaign and have just hit level 5. Gunslingers dont "need" quick draw. I have been playing a TWF gunslinger and havent had to take quick draw.
First thing that happens in a combat is i move into range drawing my pistols as part of my move. I dont need the feat.
Also if rapid reload reduces a standard action reload to a move action and then you use paper cartridges it's not a free action, it would be a swift action.
I do like the idea of giving gunslingers Trick Shot from the archer fighter archetype. Allowing them to disarm or sunder at range but not grappling. Grappling with an arrow or bullet doesnt really make any sense to be honest.
What is more iconic that quick draw for a gunslinger? I could not disagree with you more about that.
You don't need rapid reload if you take my flurry approach. If it is harder for non-gunslinger classes I have no issue with that.
I agree with you on what should and should be allowed as combat manuevers.
What is more iconic that quick draw for a gunslinger? I could not disagree with you more about that.
You don't need rapid reload if you take my flurry approach. If it is harder for non-gunslinger classes I have no issue with that.
I agree with you on what should and should be allowed as combat manuevers.
Depends on the gunslinger -- are we talking about the thin redline sort of musket user? Or perhaps a musketeer type. Maybe a pirate? All of these are unlikely to have quick draw but would be types of gunslingers.
I don't see quick draw as a "needed" thing -- it does fit the western cowboy style of gunslinger -- but that isn't the only type.
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I have been playing a gunslinger in a savage tide campaign and have just hit level 5. Gunslingers dont "need" quick draw. I have been playing a TWF gunslinger and havent had to take quick draw.
First thing that happens in a combat is i move into range drawing my pistols as part of my move. I dont need the feat.
Maybe so. But I would like to see it as a bonus feat. If they're set on making the Gunslinger have so much cowboy flavor, it's iconic.
Also if rapid reload reduces a standard action reload to a move action and then you use paper cartridges it's not a free action, it would be a swift action.
Read again. Move actions for reloading are reduced to free actions.
I do like the idea of giving gunslingers Trick Shot from the archer fighter archetype. Allowing them to disarm or sunder at range but not grappling. Grappling with an arrow or bullet doesnt really make any sense to be honest.
Well, Targeting pretty much already does that. Maybe there needs to be some kind of save or check to do so, but I think Targeting already does a good and flavorful job of doing this.
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I don't understand why people like the class variant system proposed in this playtest. Trying to shoehorn new flavor and abilities into existing classes serves little purpose other than to confuse the issue. Look at the Ninja. It's a great class pretty much the way it is, but because it's better than the Rogue that begat it, people cry overpowered. Compared to classes like the Inquisitor, though, it's a pretty balanced class.
Maybe there were certain periods when the Samurai was mounted but as I understand it the rarity of horses in Japan (they had to be brought from China, made this period short compared to the martial history of Japan. It's also pretty rare in pop culture. I think the people who want the Mount class feature are fewer than those who would prefer a spiritual connection with their chosen weapon or something of that nature. But the Cavalier variant precludes that. It's just silly.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I do not, however like the gunslinger very much, as it is for one very basic reason.
Gain
1. Quick draw.
2. At a reasonable level, no misfire chance.
3. Reloading as a free-action
4. Rapid fire mechanic similar to a monks flurry of blows that allows two weapon wielding with firearms only
5. A good Will save
Lose
1. He doesn't need medium armor.
2. Grit
3. Bravery
4. Make him 3/4 BaB
5. Gun training
I'm of a very similar mind.
I really don't like the Gunslinger as it is in Round 1 or 2. There is far more I dislike than that which I like.
I've worked up my own version, and I think it provides the majority of the appeal of the Round 2 Gunslinger, without any of the problem areas like:
- Grit system
- Touch Attack
- Balance power with flavor
Here is my draft of a the Gunslinger Round 3 (my version):
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All (Grit) deeds become (Combat) deeds.
All "grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat" prerequisites now say "Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) or equivalent"
Amateur Gunslinger (Combat), Extra Grit (Grit), No Name (Grit), Secret Stash Deed (Grit), Signature Deed (Grit)
These feats are no longer available.
Leaping Shot Deed, Ricochet Shot Deed
These feats no longer cost a grit to perform.
Ricochet Shot Deed no longer allows you to spend a grit to ignore cover / concealment.
Pistol Whip (Combat)
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) or equivalent
Benefit: You may use a firearm as a melee weapon. The weapon enhancement bonus to attack and damage apply to these attacks. The damage dealt by the pistol-whip is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by size Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by small Size creatures.) Regardless of your size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/x2.
Coldcock (Combat)
Prerequisite: Pistol Whip, +8 BAB
Benefit: As a Standard action, you may make a Pistol Whip attack. If the attack hits, you may make CMB check to know the target prone as a free action.
Expert Marksman (Combat)
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) or equivalent
Benefit: You no longer misfire a firearm.
Lighting Reload (Combat)
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) or equivalent, Rapid Reload, +11 BAB
Benefit: You may reload a single barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a free action once per round. If you are wielding multiple firearms, you may reload each. You may not reload a firearm drawn from Quickdraw this round.
Pinpoint Shot (Combat)
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) or equivalent, Improved Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, +17 BAB
Benefit: Your first attack with a firearm each turn, the target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.
Utility Shot (Combat)
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) or equivalent, +5 BAB
Same abilities as Utility Shot (Ex) Deed in the R2 document. Only the line about "at least 1 grit point" is not needed and not present.
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Gun Expert: At 1st level a gunslinger gains Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Firearms) as a bonus feat. A gunslinger also gains the Gunsmith ability from UCP Round 2 otherwise known as "R2". This ability replaces Unarmed Strike class feature (no free IUS and no increasing damage dice.)
Flash of Light (Ex) Starting at 1st level, a Gunslinger can make a flash of light as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using a firearm as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the gunslinger does not meet the prerequisites for the feat.) For the purpose of these attacks, the gunslinger's base attack bonus is equal to his gunslinger level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the gunslinger use his normal base attack bonus. At 8th level, the gunslinger can make two additional attacks when he uses flash of light, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the gunslinger does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). At 1th level, the gunslinger can make three additional attacks using flash of light, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if he does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). A gunslinger applies his strength bonus as if these attacks were not offhand attacks. A gunslinger may only make attacks during the flash of light from firearm weapons. This ability replaces flurry of blows.
Marksman: At 1st level a gunslinger gains Expert Marksman as a bonus feat. This ability replaces Stunning Fist.
AC Bonus (Ex): A gunslinger is proficient with light armor. A gunslinger retains his AC Bonus when wearing a light armor, but not when wearing any shield. A gunslinger adds only half his Wis bonus to AC instead of the full bonus. This ability modifies AC Bonus.
Quickdraw: Quickdraw is added to a gunslinger's bonus feat list. A gunslinger must choose Quickdraw as his 2nd level Bonus Feat.
Bullet Dodge (Ex): A gunslinger is exception at avoiding ranged attacks. A gunslinger is always considered to have Cover (even if there is nothing to provide the cover) from any ranged attack. This grants a +4 bonus to AC. This ability replaces Evasion.
Avoid Explosions (Ex): A gunslinger is excellent at diving for cover. A gunslinger is always considered to have Cover (even if there is nothing to provide the cover) from attacks that originate or burst out. This grants a +2 bonus on Reflex saves. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and this negate this cover. This ability replaces Still Mind.
Rapid Reload: At 4th level a gunslinger gains Rapid Reload as a bonus feat. This ability replaces Ki Pool.
Gun Training (Ex): Staring at 5th level, a gunslinger can select on specific type of firearm (such as an musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Every 4 levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses with those types as well. This ability replaces Purity of Body.
Pistol Whip and Utility Shot are added to the gunslinger's Bonus Feat list at 6th level. This ability replaces Woleness of Body.
Evasion: At 7th level a gunslinger gains Evasion (as Rogue). This ability replaces Improved Evasion.
Gunslinger Initiative (Ex): At 9th level a gunslinger gains +2 bonus to Initiative checks. If you hands are free and unrestrained and the firearm is not hidden, you may draw a single firearm as part of the initiative check. This ability replaces Diamond Body.
Coldcock is added to the gunslinger's Bonus Feat list at 10th level. Lightning Reload is added to the gunslinger's Bonus Feat list at 12th level. This ability replaces Abundant Step.
Uncanny Balance (Ex): At 11th level a gunslinger may take a 5 ft step in difficult terrain. This ability doesn't work if the difficult terrain is coming from a spell or from being bound or entangled. This ability replaces Quivering Palm.
Improved Evasion: At 15th level a gunslinger gains Improved Evasion (as Rogue). This ability replaces Timeless Body.
Bleeding Shot (Ex): At 15th level when a gunslinger hits a living target with a firearm attack, she deals extra bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage is equal to the gunslinger's Dexterity bonus (minimum 1). Creatures immune to sneak attack are also immune to these types of bleed damage. This ability replaces Tongue of the sun and moon.
Pinpoint Shot (Ex): A 17th level gunslinger gains Pinpoint Shot (even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites) as a bonus feat. This ability replaces Empty Body.
Equilibrium (Ex): At 20th level, once per round when the gunslinger would normally be hit by any ranged attack that requires a d20 roll, you may avoid the attack by taking an immediate action 5 ft step. If there is an adjacent space that you move into, the attack misses you. This ability replaces Perfect Self.
Things it retains from the Monk:
- Bonus Feats
- Flurry of Blows as Flash of Light
- Fast Movement
- Maneuver Training
- Slow Fall
- High Jump
- Diamond Soul (SR)
Things left on the cutting room floor from the Round 2 Gunslinger:
- Grit
- Dead Shot (just use Vital Strike instead)
- Starling Shot (Too much synergy with Gunslinger/Rogue)
- Targeting (no save "magical" effects from a non-magical weapon are bad in my mind.)
- Expert Loading (no misfires once you take the feat so no need.)
- Uncanny Dodge (unneeded with the dodge abilities in the class)
- Menacing Shot (just take Dazzling Display)
- Slinger's Luck (unneeded with the dodge abilities in the class)
- Cheat Death (nice but unneeded, take diehard and you get most of the same benefit)
- Death's Shot (death atacks are bad in my mind, especially ones that don't require prep.)
- Stunning Shot (Just take the Stunning Assault feat.)
- Bravery (it got better saves already)
- True Grit (new caps stone is better.)
I think this solves all the existing complains I and others have. It may even solve some of the other complains people have voiced, by making it better at doing what I think it is intended to do.
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What is more iconic that quick draw for a gunslinger? I could not disagree with you more about that.
You don't need rapid reload if you take my flurry approach. If it is harder for non-gunslinger classes I have no issue with that.
I agree with you on what should and should be allowed as combat manuevers.
Depends on the gunslinger -- are we talking about the thin redline sort of musket user? Or perhaps a musketeer type. Maybe a pirate? All of these are unlikely to have quick draw but would be types of gunslingers.
I don't see quick draw as a "needed" thing -- it does fit the western cowboy style of gunslinger -- but that isn't the only type.
As I said in the original post, a musketeer isn't a gunslinger. It is a swordsman who carries a musket. A pirate is a rogue who happens to carry a pistol. Neither is a concept you can't create currently better by using an existing class.
As I also said in the original post, I would be fine with it being an option similar to a ranger that has a rifle or shattershot alternate.
But the iconic gunslinger moment is high noon, face to face, quick draw.
Depends on the gunslinger -- are we talking about the thin redline sort of musket user? Or perhaps a musketeer type. Maybe a pirate? All of these are unlikely to have quick draw but would be types of gunslingers.
I don't see quick draw as a "needed" thing -- it does fit the western cowboy style of gunslinger -- but that isn't the only type.
As I said in the original post, a musketeer isn't a gunslinger. It is a swordsman who carries a musket. A pirate is a rogue who happens to carry a pistol. Neither is a concept you can't create currently better by using an existing class.
As I also said in the original post, I would be fine with it being an option similar to a ranger that has a rifle or shattershot alternate.
But the iconic gunslinger moment is high noon, face to face, quick draw.
So the iconic is all that should be possible with this class?
Meaning that all fighters should be like Valeros right?
All rogues need to be like mirsiel?
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Your saying that there should be no way that a gunslinger should be a sniper -- than a pirate could never be a gunslinger cause he doesn't stand and deliver at high noon, and that a musketeer that forms up in lines and fires his musket before reloading and doing it again could never be a guy all about guns?
Why about the guy with the scattergun? He's not standing and delivering at high noon -- and neither is the cowboy using a rifle to sharp shoot.
I guess all gunslingers are going to need an animal companion that must be a horse or dog now too since those are the flavor?
Perhaps they all have to say, "I'll be your huckleberry." Once in every game?
The idea that all gunslingers must have quick draw so they can have shoot outs is well... not finding any traction with me.
Come on Ciretose I can't see anyway to support that -- give me something better to work with -- I would sooner agree if you said every gunslinger should get rapid reload with a specific type of gun at level 1 than this.
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I fear we'll end up in the Ultimate Combat with a balanced, fine and totally playable class, but starved of soul and leaving a bitter aftertaste seeing how much the class should change from today to really be true to it's concept, original and coherent with itself.
Right now, the gunslinger still looks like a fighter variant which inflicts a lot of bookeeping, using an exotic weapon without really improving in it ; and when I see all the other classes, including those introduced in the APG, I have the feeling it isn't original and customizable enough to really be called a "new class". It's a class that uses guns and do some imaginative or useful things with them, but at the same time doesn't get really better at it ; which don't inflict a lot of damage and suddenly double it, which can control and debuff but don't get it at lower levels.
I like the actual Gunslinger, but I'd prefer to love it. And I fear it will need some major tweaks like 3/4 BAB and rogue-like talents/gunslinger feats to really become what the players expect of it... changes we could not see in the final version. :/
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So the iconic is all that should be possible with this class?
Meaning that all fighters should be like Valeros right?
All rogues need to be like mirsiel?
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Your saying that there should be no way that a gunslinger should be a sniper -- than a pirate could never be a gunslinger cause he doesn't stand and deliver at high noon, and that a musketeer that forms up in lines and fires his musket before reloading and doing it again could never be a guy all about guns?
Why about the guy with the scattergun? He's not standing and delivering at high noon -- and neither is the cowboy using a rifle to sharp shoot.
I guess all gunslingers are going to need an animal companion that must be a horse or dog now too since those are the flavor?
Perhaps they all have to say, "I'll be your huckleberry." Once in every game?
The idea that all gunslingers must have quick draw so they can have shoot outs is well... not finding any traction with me.
Come on Ciretose I can't see anyway to support that -- give me something better to work with -- I would sooner agree if you said every gunslinger should get rapid reload with a...
I don't know if you even read the original post or the reply.
I included rifle and scattershot variants.
There is nothing the iconic musketeer can't do better as a fighter variation. There is nothing the iconic pirate can't do better as a rogue varient.
Niether needs the mechanics of the gunslinger class to achieve what makem iconic. In fact, they are better served being another class.
When you try to make something all things, it doesn'ty work well as anything.
If you have no vision of what a gunslinger is, why make it?
I kind of feel like you aren't taking any stance but to disagree at this point.
I line with what some have suggested, I wanted to see how the monk's flurry of blows could be changed to the "flurry of bullets" features. Here's what I came up with.
At 8th level, the gunslinger can make two additional attacks when she uses flurry of bullets, as if using Improved Two- Weapon Fighting (even if the gunslinger does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the gunslinger can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
Alternatively, a gunslinger wielding a two-handed firearm can make one additional attack per round at their highest attack bonus, but uses her base attack bonus instead of that of her flurry of bullets. Thus, a 1st level gunslinger using a two-handed firearm can make two attacks with a bonus of +0/+0, three attacks with a bonus of +6/+6/+1 at 8th level, and four attacks with a bonus of +15/+15/+10/+5 at 16th level.
A gunslinger applies her full Dexterity bonus to her damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of bullets, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or a one-handed firearm wielded in both hands, or with a two-handed firearm. A gunslinger may substitute disarm, sunder, and trip combat maneuvers at range for firearm attacks as part of a flurry of bullets. A gunslinger cannot use any weapon other than a firearm as part of a flurry of bullets.
Quick and easy, and removes the clunky reloading problem for the gunslinger, without removing it for nongunslingers who should not be able to do this.
I also think if we add the following, this would take care of a lot of the issues with the current gunslinger too.
Give gunslinger the monk's AC bonus, or something like it.
Add the following in place of the Monks Fast Movement features.
Replace Gunsmith with Gun Affinity
Starting at 1st level, as a standard action, the gunslinger can perform a quick clear action to remove the broken condition from this firearm, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. At 5th level, the gunslinger can perform this maneuver as a move-equivalent action, and at 9th level as a swift action. Additionally, at 7th level, as a standard action, whenever the gunslinger rolls a misfire with her bonded firearm that has the broken condition, she can keep the firearm from exploding, though it retains the broken condition.
Upon reaching 5th level, once per day, the gunslinger can use her bonded firearm to perform any one deed that she has access to without having to spend or maintain required grit points. This deed is treated like any other deed performed by the gunslinger.
In addition, a gunslinger can add any of the following weapon properties to her bonded firearm as if she has the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and if she meets the level prerequisites of these abilities: corrosive, corrosive burst, cunning, distance, flaming, flaming burst, frost, greater lucky gun, huntsman, icy burst, lucky gun, seeking, shock, shocking burst, and thundering. Although these properties duplicate the magical weapon abilities of the same names, the gunslinger adds them through alchemical means or technological engineering. The gunslinger adds these properties to her bonded firearm through the same process as creating magical weapons (see Creating Magical Weapons on page 551 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook) and are therefore permanent. Thus, a gunslinger with a bonded pistol must be at least 8th level to add the Lucky Gun magic ability to the pistol (see the Lucky Gun magical weapon property in Ultimate Combat). These abilities can be added to any properties the bonded firearm already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack.
If the bonded firearm is broken beyond repair and is not destroyed, it retains all of its bonded firearm properties and can be used to craft a new gun. The magic properties of a bonded firearm, including any magic abilities added to the firearm, only function for the gunslinger who owns it. If a bonded firearm’s owner dies, or the firearm is replaced, the firearm reverts to being an ordinary firearm of the appropriate type.
If a bonded firearm is damaged, it can be restored to full hit points after making the appropriate Craft check and one day of work. If the bonded firearm is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week of work and ½ the cost of crafting a new masterwork firearm. Bonded firearms replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded firearm. A gunslinger can designate an existing magical firearm as her bonded firearm. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed firearm except that the new magic firearm retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded firearm.
And make Gun Training the following.
In addition, beginning at 5th level, the gunslinger can permanently lower the misfire value of any firearm she owns by 1 (minimum 0). Every 4 levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), can lower the misfire value by an additional 1 (minimum 0). This improvement also affects the misfire value of alchemical cartridges used in her firearm.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Quick and easy, and removes the clunky reloading problem for the gunslinger, without removing it for nongunslingers who should not be able to do this.
That is the problem, we shouldn't make a weapon that sucks in all cases except when being used by a Gunslinger. So any effort to make it suck for non gunslingers is a failure of design in my book.
Look at the Full class I posted above. I worked through the whole Round 2 document, and came up with an alternate to the Round 2 (for the class and feats section. I left guns/items alone.)
I solved the clunky reloading problem, the misfire problem, the "not cool enough" problem and more.
Now that the gunslinger is it's own class, I don't see why we have to substitute other class features. If a gunslinger can flurry like a monk, gains wisdom ac bonuses like monks why play a gunslinger at all? Give a monk a gun and make it an archetype.
I don't think gunslingers need a flurry. Even a mid level deed that allows a fan the hammer style shot would essentially be dead shot that wastes ammo.
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How about this.
Gunsmith: At 1st level, a gunslinger creates a personal weapon to specialize with. He gains one of the following personal firearms of her choice: blunderbuss, a musket, or two pistols. Her starting weapon is custom made, and only she knows how to use it properly. All other creatures treat her gun as if it had the broken condition. If it already has the broken condition, it does not work at all for others. At 2nd level these weapons are considered masterwork quality, but only for the gunslinger for which they were custom made.
A Gunslinger can add additional magic abilities to his personal firearms as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. A Gunslinger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the weapon (see Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat) as if he possessed the master craftsman feat. You are able to add the following enhancements without penalty as if you knew the required spells: Bane, Flaming, Frost, Shock, Flaming burst, Icy burst, Shocking burst, Seeking, Thundering, and Speed.
This starting weapon can only be sold for scrap (it’s worth 4d10 gold pieces when sold). The gunslinger also gains Gunsmithing as a bonus feat.
A gunslinger who chooses to specialize in Dual Pistols gains the following.
Starting at 1st level, a gunslinger wielding his personal dual pistol can unleash a flurry of bullets as a full-attack action. When doing so she may make one additional attack using any combination of attacks with a one-handed firearm (coat pistol, double barrel pistol, dragon pistol, pepperbox, or pistol) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the gunslinger does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the gunslinger’s base attack bonus is equal to her gunslinger level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the gunslinger uses her normal base attack bonus.
At 8th level, the gunslinger can make two additional attacks when she uses flurry of bullets, as if using Improved Two- Weapon Fighting (even if the gunslinger does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
At 15th level, the gunslinger can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat).
A gunslinger wielding a musket gains the following
At 1st level, the gunslinger is able to increase the first range increment of his gun by 50%.
At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential in a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus.
She makes the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack. If any of the attacks hit the target, the gunslinger hits the target. For each additional hit made against the target beyond the first, the gunslinger increases the damage of the shot by the base die roll of the firearm. For instance, if a 7th-level
gunslinger firing a musket hits with both attacks, she does 2d12 points of damage with the shot, instead of 1d12 points of damage, before adding any damage modifiers. Precision damage and extra damage from special weapon qualities (such as flaming) are added with damage modifiers and are not increased by this deed. If one or more rolls are critical threats, she confirms the critical once using her highest
base attack bonus, and on a confirmation, she multiplies the damage normally.
After 15 level, her range increment is increased to double.
A gunslinger with a blunderbuss gain the following.
At 1st level the gunslinger is able to reload her blunderbuss as part of a move action. After 7 levels she is able to reload her blunderbuss as a free action. After 15 levels she is able to dual wield her blunderbuss, still able to reload each as a free action using a custom made cocking mechanism.
Also
Gun Expertise: At 5th level, a gunslinger's misfire chance with her Personal firearm is reduced by 1. The gunslinger is able to reduce misfire chance by an additional one point at 10th, 15th and 20th level. This reduction can be applied to any personal weapon.
At 10th level a Gunslinger can create an additional personal firearm, receiving all of the bonuses of said firearm.
At 20th level a Gunslinger receives a third personal firearm.
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Now that the gunslinger is it's own class, I don't see why we have to substitute other class features. If a gunslinger can flurry like a monk, gains wisdom ac bonuses like monks why play a gunslinger at all? Give a monk a gun and make it an archetype.
I don't think gunslingers need a flurry. Even a mid level deed that allows a fan the hammer style shot would essentially be dead shot that wastes ammo.
Because a gunslinger isn't a monk. A gunslinger can't dimension door, run at double movement, or stun...ok he can stun...but the two classes are very, very different.
Just because you use the mechanics of another class doesn't mean it is the other class.
I do not, however like the gunslinger very much, as it is for one very basic reason.
Gain
1. Quick draw.
2. At a reasonable level, no misfire chance.
3. Reloading as a free-action
4. Rapid fire mechanic similar to a monks flurry of blows that allows two weapon wielding with firearms only
5. A good Will save
Lose
1. He doesn't need medium armor.
2. Grit
3. Bravery
4. Make him 3/4 BaB
5. Gun training
I also mostly agree with this. I'd actually add one thing to the Gain part.
Instead of only getting Rapid Fire, why not have the gunslinger choose between a Sniper type and a Rapid-Fire type like the Ranger? Because to me, the Sniper who lines up a single deadly shot is a Gunslinger, too.
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I do not, however like the gunslinger very much, as it is for one very basic reason.
Gain
1. Quick draw.
2. At a reasonable level, no misfire chance.
3. Reloading as a free-action
4. Rapid fire mechanic similar to a monks flurry of blows that allows two weapon wielding with firearms only
5. A good Will save
Lose
1. He doesn't need medium armor.
2. Grit
3. Bravery
4. Make him 3/4 BaB
5. Gun training
I also mostly agree with this. I'd actually add one thing to the Gain part.
Instead of only getting Rapid Fire, why not have the gunslinger choose between a Sniper type and a Rapid-Fire type like the Ranger? Because to me, the Sniper who lines up a single deadly shot is a Gunslinger, too.
I tried to do that in the post above (half-assed I will admit)
Whoops. That's what I get for skipping one too many posts in a topic.
True Cold wrote:
Now that the gunslinger is it's own class, I don't see why we have to substitute other class features. If a gunslinger can flurry like a monk, gains wisdom ac bonuses like monks why play a gunslinger at all? Give a monk a gun and make it an archetype.
I don't think gunslingers need a flurry. Even a mid level deed that allows a fan the hammer style shot would essentially be dead shot that wastes ammo.Because a gunslinger isn't a monk. A gunslinger can't dimension door, run at double movement, or stun...ok he can stun...but the two classes are very, very different.
Just because you use the mechanics of another class doesn't mean it is the other class.
I understand they're very different classes but the flurry is the monk's shtick. Just like rage is the barbarian's thing and sneak attack is the rogue's, smite is the paladin's and so on.
I just dont think the gunslinger needs a flurry. Pepperboxes and TWF there's your flurry. They dont need to be firing off loads of rounds. If you want a dual wielding gunslinger, take the feat.
A stern faced gunman striding confidently forth blasting away with a single pistol for deliberate shots is just as cool as Captain Swashbuckle unloading a wall of lead.
Also why should gunslingers be allowed to enchant weapons without the required feat? No other class can do it without taking Craft Magic Arms and Armour. Guns cost just as much to enchant than any other weapon so if a gunslinger can do it why not other classes?
Dont get me wrong, I really like the gunslinger class. Massive nerdgasm when I found out it would be included in Ultimate Combat. I just think that trying to fit it to the iconic isnt the way to go. As has been said before, not all fighters are Valeros, not all gunslingers are dual wielders.
Phew...
I almost completly agree with OP, specially about the 3/4 base attack.
Also I think the Gunslinger needs more skill points, the archetypical gunslinger is pretty rougish (intimidate, stealth, perception, survival, sense motive, sleigh of hands, a few knowledges, etc), 6+int seems fine.
Hunbly,
Yawar
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True Cold wrote:
Now that the gunslinger is it's own class, I don't see why we have to substitute other class features. If a gunslinger can flurry like a monk, gains wisdom ac bonuses like monks why play a gunslinger at all? Give a monk a gun and make it an archetype.
I don't think gunslingers need a flurry. Even a mid level deed that allows a fan the hammer style shot would essentially be dead shot that wastes ammo.Because a gunslinger isn't a monk. A gunslinger can't dimension door, run at double movement, or stun...ok he can stun...but the two classes are very, very different.
Just because you use the mechanics of another class doesn't mean it is the other class.I understand they're very different classes but the flurry is the monk's shtick. Just like rage is the barbarian's thing and sneak attack is the rogue's, smite is the paladin's and so on.
I just dont think the gunslinger needs a flurry. Pepperboxes and TWF there's your flurry. They dont need to be firing off loads of rounds. If you want a dual wielding gunslinger, take the feat.
A stern faced gunman striding confidently forth blasting away with a single pistol for deliberate shots is just as cool as Captain Swashbuckle unloading a wall of lead.
Also why should gunslingers be allowed to enchant weapons without the required feat? No other class can do it without taking Craft Magic Arms and Armour. Guns cost just as much to enchant than any other weapon so if a gunslinger can do it why not other classes?
Dont get me wrong, I really like the gunslinger class. Massive nerdgasm when I found out it would be included in Ultimate Combat. I just think that trying to fit it to the iconic isnt the way to go. As has been said before, not all fighters are Valeros, not all gunslingers are dual wielders.
Phew...
Flurry is now TWF.
That is all it is, more or less.
This is so the gunslinger doesn't have the feat tax required to have TWF. And you can't have a pepperbox early on.
If you read the post, not all gunslingers are dual wielders. Some are snipers, and some are blunderbuss (shotgun) specialists.
As to enchanting the weapon, it is his gun. I personally like the mechanic as it fixes the "expensive stolen gun" issue to have it custom for him.
I don't know if you even read the original post or the reply.I included rifle and scattershot variants.
There is nothing the iconic musketeer can't do better as a fighter variation. There is nothing the iconic pirate can't do better as a rogue varient.
Niether needs the mechanics of the gunslinger class to achieve what makem iconic. In fact, they are better served being another class.
When you try to make something all things, it doesn'ty work well as anything.
If you have no vision of what a gunslinger is, why make it?
I kind of feel like you aren't taking any stance but to disagree at this point.
No that's not my stance -- I just feel that your current stance is simply too limited in scope.
To me the gunslinger class is like any other class -- I shouldn't be stuck playing to character type with it.
I expect to be able to say, "I want to play a musketeer off of the gunslinger" and it work after all the very name "musketeer" comes from a type of gun.
Same with the cannon using/pistol wielding pirate.
I don't mind the idea of bonus feats -- I wouldn't mind the idea of at first level the gunslinger getting rapid reload for a specific type of firearm -- what I do mind is the idea that somehow all gunslingers must have quick draw -- which does nothing mechanically speaking for the various types of gun using characters.
When I grab a class I expect it's flavor to be over all generic. If I grab a fighter I expect that I can play a savage fighter (not the archetype) from a conan like setting, or a rapier using finesse fighter from a renaissance setting. I also expect the fighter to be able to be a robin hood type of character. Same with barbarian, ranger, paladin, rogue, cavalier and most other classes. Some do come with a bit more flavor than others -- a cleric is going to have something faith based, and a druid is going to be called to nature in some form or fashion -- and I'm ok with that, since it is as much the mechanics of the class as it is the flavor of it.
I do not feel that the gunslinger, despite its name, should have to be only this one type of character -- I feel the mechanics of the class should be such that if you want to play someone that is good with guns you choose the gunslinger class and then fill in the options (feats, skills, some class abilities) according to the character flavor you are playing instead of the class telling you what it is.
I fear I'm not explaining myself well -- I'm not trying to simply be contrary -- I feel the gunslinger as currently displayed and as people are pushing it only really fits one type of flavor -- and I'm against that.
Could'nt agree more.
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When I grab a class I expect it's flavor to be over all generic. If I grab a fighter I expect that I can play a savage fighter (not the archetype) from a conan like setting, or a rapier using finesse fighter from a renaissance setting. I also expect the fighter to be able to be a robin hood type of character. Same with barbarian, ranger, paladin, rogue, cavalier and most other classes. Some do come with a bit more flavor than others -- a cleric is going to have something faith based, and a druid is going to be called to nature in some form or fashion -- and I'm ok with that, since it is as much the mechanics of the class as it is the flavor of it.
I do not feel that the gunslinger, despite its name, should have to be only this one type of character -- I feel the mechanics of the class should be such that if you want to play someone that is good with guns you choose the gunslinger class and then fill in the options (feats, skills, some class abilities) according to the character flavor you are playing instead of the class telling you what it is.
I fear I'm not explaining myself well -- I'm not trying to simply be contrary -- I feel the gunslinger as currently displayed and as people are pushing it only really fits one type of flavor -- and I'm against that.
Which is right along the lines of what I said. They need to fall back and punt on this class, right down to the name, because the name is forcing flavor. As it stands right now, no, a musketeer is not this class. And imo, that's fine, just make musketeer a build option or prestige class for fighter, and let the gunslinger do its thing, rather than trying to make it be what it isn't. OR, make the new class "sharp shooter" which can encompass everything from the wild west gunslinger to the musketeer to the corsair with a pistol and blade to the sniper who never gets in melee.
A lot of the dissension is coming from people trying to build two different classes. Some are building sharp shooters that can be...
I can see Abraham's point about wanting it to be broad, but I think that if you are allowing the features of firearms to be widely available to all, then the versatile types aren't the gunslinger class.
Much like Rangers are generally focuses on one area of Combat Mastery, gunslingers by definition are masters of guns, with other skills being secondary.
The Musketeer and the Corsair are by their nature more multi-class kind of concepts, in that they do two things well, but perhaps should not do either as well as a specialist in each specific ability.
A Gunslinger should be a class that masters guns. If you want to master guns and other things, you will need to also take some levels in other things to achieve that.
Maybe we should wait - maybe the Musketeer and Corsair concept can be made with Fighters and Rogues archetype, as well as a gun-based hunter can be a Ranger archetype.
I agree that no class is favored if conceived with a very narrow concept in mind (unless the concept is very versatile by itself, like the Druid).
EDIT: I want to clarify that for "Musketeer" and "Corsair" I mean more a set of skills and combat tactics (say, Pistol + 1 handed weapon bonuses) - I do not think a class should be prescriptive of what you do. You can be the king of bandits and be a straight core fighter. heck, you can be the king of bandits and be a sorcerer!
I'm not sure, but I don't think they devs will do a 3rd round of playtest. I think the best thing for them to do, on behalf of all parties who want the musketeer/pistoleer/buccaneer styles is to make the gunslinger a generalist firearm expert, then make specific archetypes for the class, so you can have the musketeer/sharshooter, a dual-wielding pistoleer, and a pistol/melee weapon buccaneer. That way there is a solid base class that may not be too diverse, but then create some new archetypes to address the wide variety of playstyles that us, the people, would like to see.
I think it will be really difficult to cover all these play styles in one class without it being a gun-wielding fighter. I've triedd to do that with all the versions I've been reworking within the current class version. We just need to keep the general flavor of the gunslinger, then branch out with archetypes. I really do like the archetypes idea, because they are simple to swapout, and allow for a variety of new class-related flavors, much like the old 2E kits did, but better.