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Ok, you got me on that one. A 1st level adept/sor/wiz/ranger/cleric casts magic weapon. And still any other 1st level character only hits on a natural 20.DR 15/magic.
GAMMA Sure a high level fighter might hit a lot. My problem is the fact that a non-proficient 1st level commoner can pick up a rifle and hit (and do damage to) an ANCIENT RED DRAGON about 75-80% of the time (more if he has a DEX bonus) and no one seems to think thats a problem. Why?
Ray of frost.
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Ray of frost.Ok, you got me on that one. A 1st level adept/sor/wiz/ranger/cleric casts magic weapon. And still any other 1st level character only hits on a natural 20.DR 15/magic.
GAMMA Sure a high level fighter might hit a lot. My problem is the fact that a non-proficient 1st level commoner can pick up a rifle and hit (and do damage to) an ANCIENT RED DRAGON about 75-80% of the time (more if he has a DEX bonus) and no one seems to think thats a problem. Why?
You're just making facetious, circular arguments that serve no purpose other than to paint you as a juvenile.
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You're just making facetious, circular arguments that serve no purpose other than to paint you as a juvenile.Ray of frost.Ok, you got me on that one. A 1st level adept/sor/wiz/ranger/cleric casts magic weapon. And still any other 1st level character only hits on a natural 20.DR 15/magic.
GAMMA Sure a high level fighter might hit a lot. My problem is the fact that a non-proficient 1st level commoner can pick up a rifle and hit (and do damage to) an ANCIENT RED DRAGON about 75-80% of the time (more if he has a DEX bonus) and no one seems to think thats a problem. Why?
No. I'm just exposing how poor your grasp on mechanics is, so that you can see how over your head you are getting with blanket, un-supported statements such as "it's broken because it hits dragons too easily". It's for your own good.
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You're just making facetious, circular arguments that serve no purpose other than to paint you as a juvenile.Ray of frost.Ok, you got me on that one. A 1st level adept/sor/wiz/ranger/cleric casts magic weapon. And still any other 1st level character only hits on a natural 20.DR 15/magic.
GAMMA Sure a high level fighter might hit a lot. My problem is the fact that a non-proficient 1st level commoner can pick up a rifle and hit (and do damage to) an ANCIENT RED DRAGON about 75-80% of the time (more if he has a DEX bonus) and no one seems to think thats a problem. Why?
*falls over laughing* You just had two statements proven false, and you're ignoring that fact to call HIM juvenile?
I just don't know what to say to you people without getting flagged here.
Why don't you address their concerns by actually posting a build?
I mean, seriously, could you explain why you refuse to do this? Why not actually post the gunslinger that you believe is overpowered, so that it can be compared to other characters at the same level?
Do you find building out a character to be difficult? Does it take you significantly more time to build out a character than to post arguments on a message board? Why do you continue to refuse to post a build to support your position?
"Here is an example of a gunslinger that is significantly more powerful than other characters of a comparable level" would be the most straightforward thing you could do to prove your point.
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Make several builds, ones using firearms and ones using other ranged weapons, at levels, say, 1, 6, 11, 16. Use either an elite array or a 20 point buy and standard Wealth By Level. Calculate their DPR while performing a full attack action against several enemies of appropriate CR. Consider their weapon and ammo costs in relation to WBL. Consider how many feats they have to burn on using firearms efficiently and compare it to the number of feats needed to make other ranged builds equally viable. Consider the action economy of each build and whether they can maintain using full attacks round after round. Once you've crunched all this, we'll see if you still think guns are overpowered. If you do, post your results and we can discuss them.
Ok. This is lunch hour so I'll have to do quick and dirty.
1 is moot, as only gunslingers can afford firearms.
6th level rogue has at least 3 feats, so one is exotic pepperbox, 2nd is point blank, 3rd is two weapon fighting. And I can swap a rogue talent for a feat, so precise shot.
So 6th level two ranged touch attacks do 13 (1d6 weapon, 3d6 sneak attack, 1 point blank) points of damage each attack for 24 DPR, assuming no enhancement to the weapons of any kind.
Misfire on 1, but X4 damage on a 20. Base attack is 4 and you should have at least a +5 to dex, plus the + 1 from precise shot, -4 for two weapon. But again, vs touch.
Level 11 it start getting fun. I have 3 more feats, but I only really need improved two weapon so I can add another attack. Now I have 4 attacks that do (3.5 weapon + 6d6 sneak attack + 1 point blank) 25.5 each before you add any enhancements. And of course you would have enhancements by now. So I'm at 102 points of damage average BEFORE you add enhancements or calculate for critical, or add rogue talents that do ability damage...
Level 16 I have taken greater two weapon fighting so now I have 6 attacks against touch each of which do 31.5 points of damage BEFORE I add any enhancements for a total of 189 points of damage BEFORE I add any enhancements, and not accounting for that X4 critical.
Misfire and X4 crit seem to pretty much cancel each other out, but consider that I am pretty much auto hitting at this point, even with my lowest possible attack, and doing 31.5 points of damage without counting any weapon enhancement or special ammo.
And did I mention I can also do strength damage? Hell I didn't even throw on the bleed rogue talent for more damage.
And look at all the effects I can add with rogue talent.
They just plain missed this loophole.
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What 'two statements' would those be?
One was a simple oversight of DR, which is easily bypassed. Making the dragon vulnerable again.
Two, Ray of Frost (and all rays) don't have anywhere near the range of a rifle.
Only Ray of Frost has the capability of keeping up with someone with a gun since a spellcaster will run out of other spells.
Three, The point for this whole argument is that something that is so similar to an arrow or a crossbow bolt shouldn't simply bypass armor.
If its a spell, fine. That some sort of magic beam, which is balanced by its number of uses per day.
Guns shouldn't work that way. End of story. If you disagree, fine, thats your choice. If they don't change the rules, fine, thats Paizo's choice.
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I just don't know what to say to you people without getting flagged here.Why don't you address their concerns by actually posting a build?
I mean, seriously, could you explain why you refuse to do this? Why not actually post the gunslinger that you believe is overpowered, so that it can be compared to other characters at the same level?
Do you find building out a character to be difficult? Does it take you significantly more time to build out a character than to post arguments on a message board? Why do you continue to refuse to post a build to support your position?
"Here is an example of a gunslinger that is significantly more powerful than other characters of a comparable level" would be the most straightforward thing you could do to prove your point.
It's not the GUNSLINGER, its the GUNS.
It's not the GUNSLINGER, its the GUNS.
Okay. Could you please build out a character, using guns, that is significantly more powerful than other characters of a comparable level?
Normally I don't get involved in these topics because they tend to just wind up being circular arguments. However I'm inclined to agree with enrious. I am ambivalent in regards to how the gun rules work, the only thing I dislike is the misfire exploding my weapon thereby destroying it. I think the issue is that you feel that Advanced Firearms are borked, which is fine minus the fact that they're so rare as to only really be GM approval items. Just because an item is listed doesn't mean it's available even if the city you are in happens to have an accommodating gp limit. Your argument about price needs to be adjusted slightly, I believe there was another thread that went off on this topic but basically if you re-read the document you'll see that basic firearms keep getting their costs reduced at every step of "gun availability" so they wind up possibly being the same or less if I recall.
The fact that Guns can hit more easily than other weapons isn't much of a threat if they lack the oomph to back it up. I'm less intimidated by the 1d8 autohitting gunslinger than I am the 1d8+5 longbow wielding fighter who hits me on a 10 or higher. I mean after all assuming average roll (4.5) and that the gunslinger hits me twice and the archer hits me once their damage is pretty much the same at that point (9 for the gunslinger and 9.5 for the archer, keep in mind that's 2 hits vs 1 hit).
A better place for your argument to start is to use a musket or a pistol as those are the guaranteed options for a gunslinger to have and ignore the advanced firearms as they are optional after all. Also compare a firearm to either a crossbow or longbow focused character, you'll be surprised by what you find.
It's not the GUNSLINGER, its the GUNS.
If it's the guns, then build two lvl 15 fighters - one with a rifle (or a musket, to compare advanced and simple firearms while we're at it) and one with a comp longbow - and compare the dpr. If you're so 100% sure that you're right, then show us the numbers.
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Fighter 10
STR 16, DEX 19
+2 comp. longbow (+3 STR) +19/+14 1d8+9 (avg 14)
+2 musket +16/+11 1d12+2 (avg 9)
target Adult Black Dragon (CR 11)
AC 28 (touch 10)
Fighter A gets his two shot sure, but needs a 9 (55%) and a 14 (30%) to hit. Not unreasonable.
Fighter B gets his shot off, needs to not roll a 1 (due to his 'magical' +18 bonus for using a lead ball).
Give Fighter B a rifle with rapid reload...
+2 rifle +16/+11 1d10+2 (avg 7)
gets to make both his shots which both only miss on a 1.
So lets see if I got this right, because Fighter A gets to deal slightly more damage but not hit as often (a lot less often) that balances with the constant stream of bullets that hit unerringly?
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What 'two statements' would those be?
My problem is the fact that a non-proficient 1st level commoner can pick up a rifle and hit (and do damage to) an ANCIENT RED DRAGON about 75-80% of the time (more if he has a DEX bonus) and no one seems to think thats a problem.
Wrong because of DR 15/magic reducing the percentage of time a 1st level commoner can hit AND do damage to an ancient red dragon.
And still any other 1st level character only hits on a natural 20.
Wrong because any 1st level wizard can have ray of frost prepared and hit on less than a natural 20.
For all intents and purposes yes. The bow fighter hitting once deals the same amount of damage as both shots from the rifle. Mind you I'm not entirely clear how you got 1d8+9 on the bow as 2 from magic and 3 from str equals 5 but it's all good. In summation while the guns are easier to hit with due to their damage being lower to the point where you need 2 hits to equal 1 from someone else their constant stream of abuse just isn't as powerful as that 1 slam by the other guy.
Fighter 10
STR 16, DEX 19+2 comp. longbow (+3 STR) +19/+14 1d8+9 (avg 14)
+2 musket +16/+11 1d12+2 (avg 9)target Adult Black Dragon (CR 11)
AC 28 (touch 10)Fighter A gets his two shot sure, but needs a 9 (55%) and a 14 (30%) to hit. Not unreasonable.
Fighter B gets his shot off, needs to not roll a 1 (due to his 'magical' +18 bonus for using a lead ball).
Give Fighter B a rifle with rapid reload...
+2 rifle +16/+11 1d10+2 (avg 7)
gets to make both his shots which both only miss on a 1.So lets see if I got this right, because Fighter A gets to deal slightly more damage but not hit as often (a lot less often) that balances with the constant stream of bullets that hit unerringly?
Well, you suddenly switched to a rifle. Why not test it with the musket? Are you afraid it might balance?
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Well, you suddenly switched to a rifle. Why not test it with the musket? Are you afraid it might balance?Fighter 10
STR 16, DEX 19+2 comp. longbow (+3 STR) +19/+14 1d8+9 (avg 14)
+2 musket +16/+11 1d12+2 (avg 9)target Adult Black Dragon (CR 11)
AC 28 (touch 10)Fighter A gets his two shot sure, but needs a 9 (55%) and a 14 (30%) to hit. Not unreasonable.
Fighter B gets his shot off, needs to not roll a 1 (due to his 'magical' +18 bonus for using a lead ball).
Give Fighter B a rifle with rapid reload...
+2 rifle +16/+11 1d10+2 (avg 7)
gets to make both his shots which both only miss on a 1.So lets see if I got this right, because Fighter A gets to deal slightly more damage but not hit as often (a lot less often) that balances with the constant stream of bullets that hit unerringly?
Ummmmm...I did test it with a musket its right there.
The fighter gets some more bonuses from weapon training and speciaization. Which I didn't add to the gun wielders
If you add that...
+2 musket +19/+14 1d12+6 (avg 12) almost as much as the bow, but still FAR more accurate.
+2 rifle +19/+11 1d10+6 (avg 11) not too much less than the bow, still get two shots a round, and still hits 95% of the time.
Fighter 10
STR 16, DEX 19+2 comp. longbow (+3 STR) +19/+14 1d8+9 (avg 14)
+2 musket +16/+11 1d12+2 (avg 9)target Adult Black Dragon (CR 11)
AC 28 (touch 10)Fighter A gets his two shot sure, but needs a 9 (55%) and a 14 (30%) to hit. Not unreasonable.
Fighter B gets his shot off, needs to not roll a 1 (due to his 'magical' +18 bonus for using a lead ball).
Give Fighter B a rifle with rapid reload...
+2 rifle +16/+11 1d10+2 (avg 7)
gets to make both his shots which both only miss on a 1.So lets see if I got this right, because Fighter A gets to deal slightly more damage but not hit as often (a lot less often) that balances with the constant stream of bullets that hit unerringly?
Thank you for beginning the build. Could you finish it, with feats and class abilities, so we can see why you believe the gun-wielder has a significant advantage?
+2 musket +19/+14 1d12+6 (avg 12) almost as much as the bow, but still FAR more accurate.
It's 14 damage 85% of the time versus 12 damage 95% of the time. Seems like a wash to me.
So, against an enemy that relies for most of its AC on natural armor (the gun's optimal case), a musket-wielder does pretty much exactly the same damage as a bow-wielder at level 10. Why do you consider the musket-wielding option to be vastly over-powered?|
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Thank you for beginning the build. Could you finish it, with feats and class abilities, so we can see why you believe the gun-wielder has a significant advantage?Fighter 10
STR 16, DEX 19+2 comp. longbow (+3 STR) +19/+14 1d8+9 (avg 14)
+2 musket +16/+11 1d12+2 (avg 9)target Adult Black Dragon (CR 11)
AC 28 (touch 10)Fighter A gets his two shot sure, but needs a 9 (55%) and a 14 (30%) to hit. Not unreasonable.
Fighter B gets his shot off, needs to not roll a 1 (due to his 'magical' +18 bonus for using a lead ball).
Give Fighter B a rifle with rapid reload...
+2 rifle +16/+11 1d10+2 (avg 7)
gets to make both his shots which both only miss on a 1.So lets see if I got this right, because Fighter A gets to deal slightly more damage but not hit as often (a lot less often) that balances with the constant stream of bullets that hit unerringly?
Its a 10th level fighter, don't we all know what class abilities they have?
Weapon Training, focus, specialization, imp critical, etc. Do you really need all that to somehow validate the relevant data. Does it matter that he's got a Belt of Physical Might (+2 STR and CON).
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+2 musket +19/+14 1d12+6 (avg 12) almost as much as the bow, but still FAR more accurate.It's 14 damage 85% of the time versus 12 damage 95% of the time. Seems like a wash to me.
So, against an enemy that relies for most of its AC on natural armor (the gun's optimal case), a musket-wielder does pretty much exactly the same damage as a bow-wielder at level 10. Why do you consider the musket-wielding option to be vastly over-powered?
No it's 14 damage 42.5% of the time.
Its a 10th level fighter, don't we all know what class abilities they have?
I suppose we do. It's mainly a matter of being able to track feat choices and use. You've brought up a number of feats in your discussion before, but if overpowering the musket-wielder takes five more feats than a comparable bow-wielder, I'm not sure that that's overpowered.
I think my other post is the more relevant one -- the musket-wielding build you posted, in its most advantageous comparison against a natural-armor-for-AC enemy, is about the same as the bow-wielding build. I'm genuinely not seeing how this is unreasonably powerful.
No it's 14 damage 42.5% of the time.
Oh, so you get two musket shots a round, each of which hits 95% of the time. So we're comparing 12 damage 190% of the time versus 14 damage 85% of the time. That is significantly better DPR. Although neither of these would place anywhere near the DPR of the optimized 10th-level ranged fighters posted elsewhere, would they?
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Its a 10th level fighter, don't we all know what class abilities they have?I suppose we do. It's mainly a matter of being able to track feat choices and use. You've brought up a number of feats in your discussion before, but if overpowering the musket-wielder takes five more feats than a comparable bow-wielder, I'm not sure that that's overpowered.
I think my other post is the more relevant one -- the musket-wielding build you posted, in its most advantageous comparison against a natural-armor-for-AC enemy, is about the same as the bow-wielding build. I'm genuinely not seeing how this is unreasonably powerful.
The major differece in the two is the selection of weapons for focus/specilization.
Fighter B has Exotic Weapon Prof and Rapid Reload as well. But technically so does Fighter A since I just built the one character in HERO*LAB and changed his weapon. So I guess Fighter A could take two more feats, say Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot. And then hit less often for more damage (+15/+15/+11 1d8+11 (avg 16) [35%/35%/10%]
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No it's 14 damage 42.5% of the time.Oh, so you get two musket shots a round, each of which hits 95% of the time. So we're comparing 12 damage 190% of the time versus 14 damage 85% of the time. That is significantly better DPR. Although neither of these would place anywhere near the DPR of the optimized 10th-level ranged fighters posted elsewhere, would they?
So you don't like my build, because its not optimized enough for you. It exists to simply point out the mistake in the way guns are treated. Why don't crossbows ignore armor, they have about the same ammount of force as muskets and flintlocks? It just doesn't make sense and it's just not balanced within the game.
When looking at DPR to see if something's broken, it makes very little sense to avoid optimization. If two poorly-made characters are competing, it doesn't really make either one broken in relation to the other, or even effectively show mistakes in the system. It just means one character may have been built better than the other.
Short of fully statting both characters and pushing them as far as they can systematically go, proving that guns are inherently more powerful than bows/crossbows is going to be nigh impossible. If you want to run numbers on that, it'd probably be the best way to go about proving your point.
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When looking at DPR to see if something's broken, it makes very little sense to avoid optimization. If two poorly-made characters are competing, it doesn't really make either one broken in relation to the other, or even effectively show mistakes in the system. It just means one character may have been built better than the other.
Short of fully statting both characters and pushing them as far as they can systematically go, proving that guns are inherently more powerful than bows/crossbows is going to be nigh impossible. If you want to run numbers on that, it'd probably be the best way to go about proving your point.
If the problem exists with an average character like mine the problems will only get worse when power-gamed/min-maxed out. The gun wielder will have the same options available to him as the bow wielder. The fact of the matter is against 90+% of the monster they will face he will have a vastly superior chance of hitting. More hits for less damage = more damage overall.
If the problem exists with an average character like mine the problems will only get worse when power-gamed/min-maxed out. The gun wielder will have the same options available to him as the bow wielder. The fact of the matter is against 90+% of the monster they will face he will have a vastly superior chance of hitting. More hits for less damage = more damage overall.When looking at DPR to see if something's broken, it makes very little sense to avoid optimization. If two poorly-made characters are competing, it doesn't really make either one broken in relation to the other, or even effectively show mistakes in the system. It just means one character may have been built better than the other.
Short of fully statting both characters and pushing them as far as they can systematically go, proving that guns are inherently more powerful than bows/crossbows is going to be nigh impossible. If you want to run numbers on that, it'd probably be the best way to go about proving your point.
That's assuming that the same optimization means the same thing to both fighters. Bow fighters get an extra attack/round out of the box with Manyshot and have a shorter reload time, so that means any additional damage will matter more as the archer will definitely be getting more attacks. Additionally, Rapid shot and Manyshot both add attacks at the highest BAB. Including Haste/Speed that makes four different attacks at maximum BAB, meaning that the bow fighter will be getting quite a few hits anyways. Also, at level 10 I assume the best way to reload the gun would be the paper cartridge with rapid reload (Making it a free action for a pistol, right? I haven't been able to fully review the reload times yet), meaning any time you're rolling a 1 or a 2 (or just a 1 if you have reliable; but that's still a 5% chance) suddenly your gun is teetering on the edge of exploding. Additionally, we are assuming a best-case scenario, high armor and natural armor, low dex. If your gun fighter was against a Will-O-Wisp, they would be much harder pressed to hit the dex and deflection bonus, as opposed to an archer being able to successfully hit anything at about the same rate.
Once more, I have not yet run numbers for high-end optimization on this, but the fact that the bow fighter appears to get more FROM optimizing than a gunner means you should consider this path.
'We hold these truths to be self-evident' only worked in the Declaration of Independence. Everything else needs evidence, and in this case the hard math would be nice.
Ok here's a comparison I opted for a pistol using fighter to maximize shots on target and put both of them within 20 feet of the target to give touch ac to the gunman and pbs to both.
lvl 6 fighters both with 16 str and 19 dex. Both have chosen the appropriate weapon group for weapon training. The Gunman also gets some alchemical cartridges once again to bring rate of fire
up to par. Our bowman gets a composite longbow to take advantage of his strength.
Gunman
Point Blank Shot, Exotic weap(pistol), Weapon Focus(pistol), Precise Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Specialization(pistol), Rapid Reload(pistol), Rapid Shot
so bonus wise we're looking at +6/+1 bab, +1 PBS, +1 weapon focus, +1 weapon training, +4 dex. This makes our total a +13/+8 dealing 1d8+4 for an average of 8.5 damage before deadly aim.
Bowman
Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus(composite longbow), Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization(composite longbow), Point Blank Master, Many Shot
bonuses are the same as our feat selection was almost exactly the same resulting in a +13/+8 dealing 1d8+7 for an average of 11.5 before deadly aim.
comparison of full attack making the most shots with highest damage potential. Our target is a CR6 Wyvern whose AC = 19 and Touch AC = 10
Gunman
+9/+9/+4(rapid shot and deadly aim) hitting for 1d8+8 = 12.5 on average hit. Only having to roll a 2 or higher to hit with his first two shots and having to roll a 6 or higher for the last one.
A 95% chance to hit with his first two and a 70% chance with his last one.
Bowman
also a +9/+9/+4(rapid shot and deadly aim) hitting for 1d8+11 = 15.5 on average hit. Our bowman has a tougher time hitting but he packs a little bigger punch. For a 50% chance on his first two rolls and
a 30% with his last shot.
As a second comparison firing with only a single shot.
Gunman
+11 1d8+8 = 12.5 95% to hit
Bowman
+11 1d8+11 = 15.5 65% to hit
The bowman has a 30% difference on their single shots but hits for 3 more points of damage.
Some of my numbers are probably off I did this as a short rough job to show a comparison at Level 6. Keep in mind as they go up in level and gear improves the bowman will more than likely outstrip his companion
due to the increase in strength and chances to hit.
So you don't like my build, because its not optimized enough for you.
I don't understand. If an optimized gun-wielder isn't significantly more powerful than other optimized characters, how are guns overpowered?
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That's assuming that the same optimization means the same thing to both fighters. Bow fighters get an extra attack/round out of the box with Manyshot and have a shorter reload time, so that means any additional damage will matter more as the archer will definitely be getting more attacks. Additionally, Rapid shot and Manyshot both add attacks at the highest BAB. Including Haste/Speed that makes four different attacks at maximum BAB, meaning that the bow fighter will be getting quite a few hits anyways. Also, at level 10 I assume the best way to reload the gun would be the paper cartridge with rapid reload (Making it a free action for a pistol, right? I haven't been able to fully review the reload times yet), meaning any time you're rolling a 1 or a 2 (or just a 1 if you have reliable; but that's still a 5% chance) suddenly your gun is teetering on the edge of exploding. Additionally, we are assuming a best-case scenario, high armor and natural armor, low dex. If your...If the problem exists with an average character like mine the problems will only get worse when power-gamed/min-maxed out. The gun wielder will have the same options available to him as the bow wielder. The fact of the matter is against 90+% of the monster they will face he will have a vastly superior chance of hitting. More hits for less damage = more damage overall.When looking at DPR to see if something's broken, it makes very little sense to avoid optimization. If two poorly-made characters are competing, it doesn't really make either one broken in relation to the other, or even effectively show mistakes in the system. It just means one character may have been built better than the other.
Short of fully statting both characters and pushing them as far as they can systematically go, proving that guns are inherently more powerful than bows/crossbows is going to be nigh impossible. If you want to run numbers on that, it'd probably be the best way to go about proving your point.
If you don't think that Ultimate Combat will have a bunch of feats for guns your just foolin' yourself.
More hits for less damage = more damage overall.
That depends on how many more hits, and how much less damage. We understand this, or else Power Attack and Deadly Aim wouldn't be viable feat choices.
If you don't think that Ultimate Combat will have a bunch of feats for guns your just foolin' yourself.
This may be the case, but those feats have not yet been released, and as a result cannot be considered in whatever point you are trying to make.
There will also probably be more feats for bows as well. There could even be one that gives +100 damage on any successful hit with a bow. There likely won't be, but it seems silly to assume something is broken based on something that doesn't exist.
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Some of my numbers are probably off I did this as a short rough job to show a comparison at Level 6. Keep in mind as they go up in level and gear improves the bowman will more than likely outstrip his companion
due to the increase in strength and chances to hit.
No as they go up in level and the monsters get bigger, they get easier to hit for the gun wielder, whereas the bow-wielder still has to roll good to hit.
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If you don't think that Ultimate Combat will have a bunch of feats for guns your just foolin' yourself.This may be the case, but those feats have not yet been released, and as a result cannot be considered in whatever point you are trying to make.
There will also probably be more feats for bows as well. There could even be one that gives +100 damage on any successful hit with a bow. There likely won't be, but it seems silly to assume something is broken based on something that doesn't exist.
Your reasoning that the bow-exclusive Manyshot, Rapid Shot feats make the bow better. I'm simply postulating that 'gun feats' will exist in Ultimate Combat and thus even the field, oh wait they won't since that darn touch attack still hits WAY more often.
No as they go up in level and the monsters get bigger, they get easier to hit for the gun wielder, whereas the bow-wielder still has to roll good to hit.
This is true. It's also true that the bow-wielder has more options for increasing his damage output per shot. The question is whether the gun-wielder significantly outpaces the bow wielder considering these trade-offs.
Certainly the basic level 10 fighters you posted gave a significant advantage to the musket-wielder. Does this advantage persist when you add feats, abilities, and optimization to both characters, or are there things that the bow-wielder can do that the musket-wielder can't?
By the way, how is the musket-wielder getting two shots? If we're not including any feats or abilities, shouldn't he just get one shot?
Your reasoning that the bow-exclusive Manyshot, Rapid Shot feats make the bow better. I'm simply postulating that 'gun feats' will exist in Ultimate Combat and thus even the field, oh wait they won't since that darn touch attack still hits WAY more often.
If you don't think that Ultimate Combat will have a bunch of feats for guns your just foolin' yourself.This may be the case, but those feats have not yet been released, and as a result cannot be considered in whatever point you are trying to make.
There will also probably be more feats for bows as well. There could even be one that gives +100 damage on any successful hit with a bow. There likely won't be, but it seems silly to assume something is broken based on something that doesn't exist.
And while I understand your point, we have no way at this time to determine if these feats will exist, and thus your entire argument is based upon a circumstance which may not even exist.
Based on that, I am afraid that at this time I cannot find it a credible point.
So more hits for less damage = better? So you're agreeing that guns are better?More hits for less damage = more damage overall.That depends on how many more hits, and how much less damage. We understand this, or else Power Attack and Deadly Aim wouldn't be viable feat choices.
... that's the opposite of what I said. I said it depends on how many more hits, and how much less damage. Power Attack and Deadly Aim are both less hits for more damage, but we still use them. So your statement is not true in all cases.
Whether or not it's true in this case is a question of math.I would still very much like to see your optimized gun-wielder build. Will he outmatch other optimized characters when fighting opponents that rely on natural armor or armor? How much of an advantage does he have for different opponents at his CR?
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No as they go up in level and the monsters get bigger, they get easier to hit for the gun wielder, whereas the bow-wielder still has to roll good to hit.This is true. It's also true that the bow-wielder has more options for increasing his damage output per shot. The question is whether the gun-wielder significantly outpaces the bow wielder considering these trade-offs.
Certainly the basic level 10 fighters you posted gave a significant advantage to the musket-wielder. Does this advantage persist when you add feats, abilities, and optimization to both characters, or are there things that the bow-wielder can do that the musket-wielder can't?
By the way, how is the musket-wielder getting two shots? If we're not including any feats or abilities, shouldn't he just get one shot?
The musket guy doesn't get two shots, I simply put his secodary attack in for no reason I guess. He does in fact only get to shoot once per round. But still hits 95% of the time. The fighter with the bow doesn't hit that often, swords don't hit that often (and suffer AOO for getting close to the dragon in the example).