|
How does a class that gets a full base attack bonus, 2 good saves, d10 Hit Dice and a ranged touch attack, seem balanced to anyone at Paizo? The Advanced Firearms just make things worse, the Revolver is cheaper than the basic Pistol and doesn't have a misfire chance and can make touch attcks out to 100 feet. What the hell?!?
And now you can multiclass with Fighter, so you can specialize with guns now.
I want to like the Gunslinger and guns but the way they work now just isn't fair. For any other Fighter to make ranged touch attacks like a Gunslinger they need a +4 weapon enhancement (Brilliant Energy) but a Gunslinger can do it with a regular non-magic gun, how is that fair?
Oh well, I can still hope that by the time the book comes out some of these egregious errors with the way guns work will be fixed.
How does a class that gets a full base attack bonus, 2 good saves, d10 Hit Dice and a ranged touch attack, seem balanced to anyone at Paizo? The Advanced Firearms just make things worse, the Revolver is cheaper than the basic Pistol and doesn't have a misfire chance and can make touch attcks out to 100 feet. What the hell?!?
And now you can multiclass with Fighter, so you can specialize with guns now.
I want to like the Gunslinger and guns but the way they work now just isn't fair. For any other Fighter to make ranged touch attacks like a Gunslinger they need a +4 weapon enhancement (Brilliant Energy) but a Gunslinger can do it with a regular non-magic gun, how is that fair?
Oh well, I can still hope that by the time the book comes out some of these egregious errors with the way guns work will be fixed.
Advanced Firearms aren't a given in a campaign. The generic assumptions of the game is " Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and
wondrous items. "|
|
The entire gun system is not a 'given' for any given campaign/world (except Golarion, where you know guns exist and exactly what knigdom makes 'em). So you're just trying to defend something you know in your heart is broken (I know people here hate that word).
Gunslingers too weak? Are we reading the same document?
How does a class that gets a full base attack bonus, 2 good saves, d10 Hit Dice and a ranged touch attack, seem balanced to anyone at Paizo? The Advanced Firearms just make things worse, the Revolver is cheaper than the basic Pistol and doesn't have a misfire chance and can make touch attcks out to 100 feet. What the hell?!?
And yet, for all of that, they just don't seem that tough to me.
The entire gun system is not a 'given' for any given campaign/world (except Golarion, where you know guns exist and exactly what knigdom makes 'em). So you're just trying to defend something you know in your heart is broken (I know people here hate that word).
Gunslingers too weak? Are we reading the same document?
Apparently not...I can't see anything about the gunslinger that makes me want to play it. I would rather play a fighter or ranger with a gun.
The entire gun system is not a 'given' for any given campaign/world (except Golarion, where you know guns exist and exactly what knigdom makes 'em). So you're just trying to defend something you know in your heart is broken (I know people here hate that word).
Gunslingers too weak? Are we reading the same document?
Yes advanced firearms are very powerful, but the side bar in the play-test document made it very clear that their use in the game is entirely up to the GM. The advanced firearms are an optional rule for GM's who want to play a steampunk game or a game in a more advanced era. I am not a very good theory crafter though so I'll let other people argue about that.
Ok so then we're in TOTAL agreement that guns are completely overpowered.
Not TOTALLY, They are a pain in the but to reload, unless you spend a feat or are a gunslinger the ammo is very expensive, with the exception of advanced firearms, the touch attack is very short range. Honestly, they are kinda like shurikens, not worth the trouble unless you like the concept.
Oh wait, so I have full BAB -- but little to no bonus on damage... My gun takes more feats and money to reload so that I can have more than a single shot in a round than any other weapon in the game... if I get an advanced firearm then several of my class features are useless and I'm to be happy about that?
Oh yeah, my primary weapon could blow up on me if it isn't an advanced firearm and I have little way to mitigate that. I'm lacking in defense and my use per day abilities are spotty on when I'll get them back and limited by a stat that normally be only moderately important... and doesn't even add anything else for me.
A fighter with a bow will handle things faster, cheaper, more effectively, more efficiently, and still be able to do something else.
I have 1 range increment with the default weapons and up to 5 with the 'advanced' which will always take a move action for me to reload due to the current wording on the feats and items available.
Yup a great choice here -- I would never want to be a paladin where I could heal myself and kill the enemy (with two good saves and spells) or a ranger (with two good saves, spells, feats without prerequisites, bonuses to hit and damage, evasion, and more skill points), or a fighter (that again does everything I can do only better), or anything else.
|
|
Ok so then we're in TOTAL agreement that guns are completely overpowered.Not TOTALLY, They are a pain in the but to reload, unless you spend a feat or are a gunslinger the ammo is very expensive, with the exception of advanced firearms, the touch attack is very short range. Honestly, they are kinda like shurikens, not worth the trouble unless you like the concept.
So we agree that Gunslingers and guns when combined are broken, since gunslingers can get free ammo, reload an entire revolver as a move action.
So we agree that Gunslingers and guns when combined are broken, since gunslingers can get free ammo, reload an entire revolver as a move action.
You make me laugh.
First off his ammunition isn't free. Never is, and probably will never be.
Also he has to make it if he doesn't pay for it which takes a day.
Also since he's reloading as a move action he can't full attack but every other round at best.
Not exactly 'powerful' especially since his damage is lame.
|
|
So we agree that Gunslingers and guns when combined are broken, since gunslingers can get free ammo, reload an entire revolver as a move action.You make me laugh.
First off his ammunition isn't free. Never is, and probably will never be.
Also he has to make it if he doesn't pay for it which takes a day.
Also since he's reloading as a move action he can't full attack but every other round at best.
Not exactly 'powerful' especially since his damage is lame.
I gots to get to bed, but I'll be back in about 8 hours continue this with you but, I will back.
|
Overdark, I could not disagree with you more. The Gunslinger is terribly underpowered right now.
The Ranger is better in terms of cost of use and action economy. Far better in action economy because their bow never breaks and they get an Animal Companion. Plus, they get spells and more skills.
Nope, I'm not buying anything like "broken" from this class.
I gots to get to bed, but I'll be back in about 8 hours continue this with you but, I will back.So we agree that Gunslingers and guns when combined are broken, since gunslingers can get free ammo, reload an entire revolver as a move action.You make me laugh.
First off his ammunition isn't free. Never is, and probably will never be.
Also he has to make it if he doesn't pay for it which takes a day.
Also since he's reloading as a move action he can't full attack but every other round at best.
Not exactly 'powerful' especially since his damage is lame.
Have you even made an attempt to -play test this or are you just another armchair developer.
Because what you seem to think you see on paper does not in any way resemble the reality I've witnessed playing this class.
My damage even with touch AC lags way behind the fighter, not only that I still have a 2 in 20 chance of causing my weapon to misfire that is 1 in every 10 or so attempts (Happens more often than you think).
The Grit Mechanic keeps everything well in balance because many of the key things that make the weapons viable take either a grit point or needing you to have grit available (Which is much harder than you seem to think.) The current mechanic for getting Grit back can easily slow the Gunslinger even more. Even base weapon damage is mediocre at best.
I gots to get to bed, but I'll be back in about 8 hours continue this with you but, I will back.
Not a huge issue -- and I appreciate where the reaction is coming from -- but I think if you run the math a couple of times, and honestly look at the costs associated with guns and the gunslinger you'll find that it is not anywhere near overpowered -- with the possible except of a few specific class abilities (that would be overpowered as they are shown in the playtest regardless -- and have already be stated by the developers as to be changed in the final product).
The samurai, with almost no offensive class abilities, has a better damage output than the gunslinger. That's when you know something is wrong.
So we agree that Gunslingers and guns when combined are broken, since gunslingers can get free ammo, reload an entire revolver as a move action.You make me laugh.
First off his ammunition isn't free. Never is, and probably will never be.
Also he has to make it if he doesn't pay for it which takes a day.
Also since he's reloading as a move action he can't full attack but every other round at best.
Not exactly 'powerful' especially since his damage is lame.
with rapid reload it's a free action to reload a advanced firearm
|
|
with rapid reload it's a free action to reload a advanced firearmSo we agree that Gunslingers and guns when combined are broken, since gunslingers can get free ammo, reload an entire revolver as a move action.You make me laugh.
First off his ammunition isn't free. Never is, and probably will never be.
Also he has to make it if he doesn't pay for it which takes a day.
Also since he's reloading as a move action he can't full attack but every other round at best.
Not exactly 'powerful' especially since his damage is lame.
OK, awesome, so a gunslinger can reload an entire revolver with a free action, great!
And you can go on and on about damage output versus a fighter and whatnot, I never said anything about damage. No matter what class you are you can find ways to deal damage, will it be as much as a fighter with a greatsword? No, but then few things can match a fighter with a two-hand weapon for damage output. But the 'broken-ness' I'm talking about comes from the touch attacks with guns, as characters gain levels and generally fight tougher (and for the most part bigger) monsters the touch AC's for said monsters doesn't go up like regular AC. Some examples Balor (AC 36, touch 20), T-Rex (AC 21, touch 7), Ancient Red Dragon (AC 38, touch 5). How is it fair that a 15-16 level gunslinger gets to only miss on a 1 whereas poor ole' Amiri (iconic barbarian chick) will need to roll a 15 or better (going by her 15th level stats in Kingmaker). I don't care if the gunslinger only does 10 points of damage per hit, he only misses 5% of the time (with all 3 of his shots), while Amiri misses 25% of the time with her best attack (50% and 75% with her other two attacks). Thats just not right, say what you will to defend the class, but its not fair.
OK, awesome, so a gunslinger can reload an entire revolver with a free action, great!And you can go on and on about damage output versus a fighter and whatnot, I never said anything about damage. No matter what class you are you can find ways to deal damage, will it be as much as a fighter with a greatsword? No, but then few things can match a fighter with a two-hand weapon for damage output. But the 'broken-ness' I'm talking about comes from the touch attacks with guns, as characters gain levels and generally fight tougher (and for the most part bigger) monsters the touch AC's for said monsters doesn't go up like regular AC. Some examples Balor (AC 36, touch 20), T-Rex (AC 21, touch 7), Ancient Red Dragon (AC 38, touch 5). How is it fair that a 15-16 level gunslinger gets to only miss on a 1 whereas poor ole' Amiri (iconic barbarian chick) will need to roll a 15 or better (going by her 15th level stats in Kingmaker). I don't care if the gunslinger only does 10 points of damage per hit, he only misses 5% of the time (with all 3 of his shots), while Amiri misses 25% of the time with her best attack (50% and 75% with her other two attacks). Thats just not right, say what you will to defend the class, but its not fair.
Fairness is in the result, not in a piece of the process. Even at higher levels when the gunslinger is churning out shots as fast as they can shoot, their average damage INCLUDING their very good chance to hit, will still be less then that of an archer fighter with their lesser chance to hit. Sure the gunslinger will only miss on a 1 and Imri will hit on a 15, but imri will do 5 times(or more) the damage on a hit. So it doesnt just even out, it is actually well in Imri's favor to actually beat the ancient red dragon, and not just succeed on dice rolls.
Imagine if you will a class that had a perfect chance of success. They could make 10 attacks every round at level and would automatically succeed at all of them. Sounds powerful right? What if they only did 3 damage a hit? Would it be powerful then? The answer is no. That is the problem with the gunslinger. Sure it has a great chance to hit at high levels, but it wont do much damage, so it isnt about to replace the barbarian or any other martial class that can actually chip away at hit points. And it has so few grit to fuel its other abilities that provide non-damage effects that it isnt going to replace the spell casting classes that normally do those sorts of things.
Rolling high enough doesnt mean success. Success requires actually doing something to defeat the enemy. And the gunslinger with his non-sense guns doesnt come close to doing enough to be considered even moderately powerful, let alone overpowered.
|
|
Pregens from APs are stupidly under-optimized. I can get you a level 15 Barbarian that will make the Gunslinger cry like grown men cry when they realize that a girl with a big sword is better than they are. In almost everything.
Except that they miss alot whereas the gunslinger don't, c'mon Gorbacz you usually post better stuff than this. I know that the pregens are under powered, but for my example I needed some concrete numbers and Amiri was what I had handy. I have a 3rd level fighter that deals almost as much damage per hit as 15th level Amiri, so yeah I know that they kinda suck. Thats not the point, the 15th level gunslinger will have almost the exact same attack bonuses and thusly only miss the ANCIENT RED DRAGON (something that should be feared) on a 1 (and since he should have an advanced firearm by then, it won't even misfire).
Pregens from APs are stupidly under-optimized. I can get you a level 15 Barbarian that will make the Gunslinger cry like grown men cry when they realize that a girl with a big sword is better than they are. In almost everything.Except that they miss alot whereas the gunslinger don't, c'mon Gorbacz you usually post better stuff than this. I know that the pregens are under powered, but for my example I needed some concrete numbers and Amiri was what I had handy. I have a 3rd level fighter that deals almost as much damage per hit as 15th level Amiri, so yeah I know that they kinda suck. Thats not the point, the 15th level gunslinger will have almost the exact same attack bonuses and thusly only miss the ANCIENT RED DRAGON (something that should be feared) on a 1 (and since he should have an advanced firearm by then, it won't even misfire).
What they are saying is that it doesnt matter that they can hit the ANCIENT RED DRAGON on a 2 if they do crap for dammage.
|
Pregens from APs are stupidly under-optimized. I can get you a level 15 Barbarian that will make the Gunslinger cry like grown men cry when they realize that a girl with a big sword is better than they are. In almost everything.Except that they miss alot whereas the gunslinger don't, c'mon Gorbacz you usually post better stuff than this. I know that the pregens are under powered, but for my example I needed some concrete numbers and Amiri was what I had handy. I have a 3rd level fighter that deals almost as much damage per hit as 15th level Amiri, so yeah I know that they kinda suck. Thats not the point, the 15th level gunslinger will have almost the exact same attack bonuses and thusly only miss the ANCIENT RED DRAGON (something that should be feared) on a 1 (and since he should have an advanced firearm by then, it won't even misfire).
So? His damage per attack is silly. The Barbarian will kill the dragon faster.
Also, if "hits a dragon with every attack" is your definition of overpowered, then a Wizard with a wand of magic missile is on the top of everybody ;)
While I don't agree with the Gunslinger being overpowered, I do agree that having it hit touch AC is a bit much. I mean, at that point, why even build armour? I think that if it just reduced armour by a set number (-2, -4, -3.14!;) ) it would be alot better.
Also happy Pi Day
Would you consider the sorcerer with a load of rays to be overpowered? At 15th level, she'll have an awful lot of low level spells, and will be dishing out a lot more damage than the gunslinger. She'll be hitting every attack, and what's more, her spellcasting ability won't shatter on a natural 1.
On the other side of the coin, if the gunslinger comes up against anything with a high dex, he's just as likely to hit as anyone else, and will do quite a lot less damage.
|
|
OK, awesome, so a gunslinger can reload an entire revolver with a free action, great!And you can go on and on about damage output versus a fighter and whatnot, I never said anything about damage. No matter what class you are you can find ways to deal damage, will it be as much as a fighter with a greatsword? No, but then few things can match a fighter with a two-hand weapon for damage output. But the 'broken-ness' I'm talking about comes from the touch attacks with guns, as characters gain levels and generally fight tougher (and for the most part bigger) monsters the touch AC's for said monsters doesn't go up like regular AC. Some examples Balor (AC 36, touch 20), T-Rex (AC 21, touch 7), Ancient Red Dragon (AC 38, touch 5). How is it fair that a 15-16 level gunslinger gets to only miss on a 1 whereas poor ole' Amiri (iconic barbarian chick) will need to roll a 15 or better (going by her 15th level stats in Kingmaker). I don't care if the gunslinger only does 10 points of damage per hit, he only misses 5% of the time (with all 3 of his shots), while Amiri misses 25% of the time with her best attack (50% and 75% with her other two attacks). Thats just not right, say what you will to defend the class, but its not fair.
Fairness is in the result, not in a piece of the process. Even at higher levels when the gunslinger is churning out shots as fast as they can shoot, their average damage INCLUDING their very good chance to hit, will still be less then that of an archer fighter with their lesser chance to hit. Sure the gunslinger will only miss on a 1 and Imri will hit on a 15, but imri will do 5 times(or more) the damage on a hit. So it doesnt just even out, it is actually well in Imri's favor to actually beat the ancient red dragon, and not just succeed on dice rolls.
Imagine if you will a class that had a perfect chance of success. They could make 10 attacks every round at level and would automatically succeed at all of them. Sounds powerful right? What if they only did...
Well since you put it that way. No wait youre still wrong. Doing less damage and never missing, still equals more damage over all. Amiri deals about 22 points (average per hit) the gunslinger would deal about 17-18 per shot (with a +4 icy burst rifle to match Amiri's +4 icy burst sword). So where's the huge damage lack there? Plus don't forget, HE ONLY MISSES THE DRAGON ON A 1, WHILE THE BARBARIAN MISSES ALOT.
|
|
Would you consider the sorcerer with a load of rays to be overpowered? At 15th level, she'll have an awful lot of low level spells, and will be dishing out a lot more damage than the gunslinger. She'll be hitting every attack, and what's more, her spellcasting ability won't shatter on a natural 1.
On the other side of the coin, if the gunslinger comes up against anything with a high dex, he's just as likely to hit as anyone else, and will do quite a lot less damage.
No the sorcerer (or wizard) balances their touch attack capability with a crap base attack.
|
|
Well since you put it that way. No wait youre still wrong. Doing less damage and never missing, still equals more damage over all. Amiri deals about 22 points (average per hit) the gunslinger would deal about 17-18 per shot (with a +4 icy burst rifle to match Amiri's +4 icy burst sword). So where's the huge damage lack there? Plus don't forget, HE ONLY MISSES THE DRAGON ON A 1, WHILE THE BARBARIAN MISSES ALOT.
Ever heard of Greater Rage, Power Attack and rage powers? They're all in her statblock.
The part of the discussion that gets me is that people treat the touch AC portion as though the gunslinger will always attack in that range. While it's a good idea to treat things as optimized, remember that dragon with a poor touch AC has load of natural attacks, and the gunslinger will be very close in light armor. Not a good idea, if you ask me.
The part of the discussion that gets me is that people treat the touch AC portion as though the gunslinger will always attack in that range. While it's a good idea to treat things as optimized, remember that dragon with a poor touch AC has load of natural attacks, and the gunslinger will be very close in light armor. Not a good idea, if you ask me.
if he is only using a revolver he'd be screwed, but a rifle with far shot will keep him relatively safe
No the sorcerer (or wizard) balances their touch attack capability with a crap base attack.Would you consider the sorcerer with a load of rays to be overpowered? At 15th level, she'll have an awful lot of low level spells, and will be dishing out a lot more damage than the gunslinger. She'll be hitting every attack, and what's more, her spellcasting ability won't shatter on a natural 1.
On the other side of the coin, if the gunslinger comes up against anything with a high dex, he's just as likely to hit as anyone else, and will do quite a lot less damage.
Against an ancient red dragon - your monster of choice - it doesn't matter if they have half base attack; she'll still only miss on a 1. And she won't have to worry about range increments.
Also, if a 15th level barbarian is only dishing out 22 damage per round, something has gone seriously wrong. If you optimise the gunslinger and not the barbarian, it doesn't make for a fair comparison. (+1 to Gorbacz's post about Power Attack and Rage Powers)
Well since you put it that way. No wait youre still wrong. Doing less damage and never missing, still equals more damage over all. Amiri deals about 22 points (average per hit) the gunslinger would deal about 17-18 per shot (with a +4 icy burst rifle to match Amiri's +4 icy burst sword). So where's the huge damage lack there? Plus don't forget, HE ONLY MISSES THE DRAGON ON A 1, WHILE THE BARBARIAN MISSES ALOT.
This is the part where the fact that the under optimized pregens is important. In the dpr olympics thread, a level 10 barbarian here is doing 2d4+24 with a 15-20 crit. Which is already more then imri does, 5 levels lower. The optimized 2handed fighter does more then that, and the archer fighter has an even superior attack routine. Imri is not a good yardstick nor is any pregen.
|
|
The part of the discussion that gets me is that people treat the touch AC portion as though the gunslinger will always attack in that range. While it's a good idea to treat things as optimized, remember that dragon with a poor touch AC has load of natural attacks, and the gunslinger will be very close in light armor. Not a good idea, if you ask me.
Yeah except that with a rifle you can make those wonderful touch attacks out to a range of 400 feet. 100 feet with a revolver. Doesn't sound like 'very close' to me.
|
|
Well since you put it that way. No wait youre still wrong. Doing less damage and never missing, still equals more damage over all. Amiri deals about 22 points (average per hit) the gunslinger would deal about 17-18 per shot (with a +4 icy burst rifle to match Amiri's +4 icy burst sword). So where's the huge damage lack there? Plus don't forget, HE ONLY MISSES THE DRAGON ON A 1, WHILE THE BARBARIAN MISSES ALOT.This is the part where the fact that the under optimized pregens is important. In the dpr olympics thread, a level 10 barbarian here is doing 2d4+24 with a 15-20 crit. Which is already more then imri does, 5 levels lower. The optimized 2handed fighter does more then that, and the archer fighter has an even superior attack routine. Imri is not a good yardstick nor is any pregen.
The pregen iconic gunslinger will suck just as bad as the sucky pregen barbarian. IT WAS JUST AN EXAMPLE! And I'm sure that an optimized (power-gamed) gunslinger will still win, because they never miss. Sadly thats only a slight exaggeration.
|
|
Overdark, I am calling you out.
Your behavior so far has been the textbook definition of troll.
You state your point over and over again, you dismiss all counter-arguments, and all without providing any numbers at all to back up your claim.
How the class looks on paper is important, but it's not everything. It's not even the primary thing.
You think the class is broken? You think Advanced Firearms are overpowered? Stat it up.
Show us. Prove your point instead of being arrogantly, aggressively dismissive.
Don't do it at 20th level - the game comes apart there. Don't use Mighty Composite Longbow - that's been proved to be in the top 5 highest DPRs, so it's a bad choice.
Do a Human Gunslinger (revolver + buckler) and a Human Fighter (light crossbow), both at either 10th or 15th level. Have them fight each other, and have them fight monsters with escalating CRs (level -3, -2, -1, level, level +1).
Stat it up and run the numbers or stop trolling.
EDIT: wow, in the three minute since I posted this, there's already 3 replies, two other of which are also challenging Overdark to stat it up.
The pregen iconic gunslinger will suck just as bad as the sucky pregen barbarian. IT WAS JUST AN EXAMPLE!Well since you put it that way. No wait youre still wrong. Doing less damage and never missing, still equals more damage over all. Amiri deals about 22 points (average per hit) the gunslinger would deal about 17-18 per shot (with a +4 icy burst rifle to match Amiri's +4 icy burst sword). So where's the huge damage lack there? Plus don't forget, HE ONLY MISSES THE DRAGON ON A 1, WHILE THE BARBARIAN MISSES ALOT.This is the part where the fact that the under optimized pregens is important. In the dpr olympics thread, a level 10 barbarian here is doing 2d4+24 with a 15-20 crit. Which is already more then imri does, 5 levels lower. The optimized 2handed fighter does more then that, and the archer fighter has an even superior attack routine. Imri is not a good yardstick nor is any pregen.
So lets take practical examples? Make a level 15 gunslinger, with a 20 point buy and level 15 wealth. I'll make a level 15 archer fighter and we'll both run the numbers according to the dpr thread against the red dragon, and see what the damamge numbers actually are rather then speculating or relying on poorly made pregens.
The part of the discussion that gets me is that people treat the touch AC portion as though the gunslinger will always attack in that range. While it's a good idea to treat things as optimized, remember that dragon with a poor touch AC has load of natural attacks, and the gunslinger will be very close in light armor. Not a good idea, if you ask me.Yeah except that with a rifle you can make those wonderful touch attacks out to a range of 400 feet. 100 feet with a revolver. Doesn't sound like 'very close' to me.
1)unless you have far shot you are taking a -10 penalty to those attacks
2)you are not always going to have that much room to shoot
|
|
Overdark, I am calling you out.
Your behavior so far has been the textbook definition of troll.
You state your point over and over again, you dismiss all counter-arguments, and all without providing any numbers at all to back up your claim.
How the class looks on paper is important, but it's not everything. It's not even the primary thing.
You think the class is broken? You think Advanced Firearms are overpowered? Stat it up.
Show us. Prove your point instead of being arrogantly, aggressively dismissive.
Don't do it at 20th level - the game comes apart there. Don't use Mighty Composite Longbow - that's been proved to be in the top 5 highest DPRs, so it's a bad choice.
Do a Human Gunslinger (revolver + buckler) and a Human Fighter (light crossbow), both at either 10th or 15th level. Have them fight each other, and have them fight monsters with escalating CRs (level -3, -2, -1, level, level +1).
Stat it up and run the numbers or stop trolling.
Troll? Who are you Charlie Sheen. Get bent. I just gave you some numbers (at 15th level even) but I guess that wasn't good enough for you. And how do you figure a revolver matches a light crossbow, try rifle versus light crossbow. And one on one versus a crossbow fighter the gunslinger wins every time (he just hits more often, WAY more often)
that dragon with a poor touch AC has load of natural attacksWhile this is true, I can't think of any reason why said gunslinger won't have a Far-Reaching Sight by this point in the adventure. Not unless the GM is a total jerk about making the party encounter things they would never be equipped or able to defeat.
Also, when was the last time the adversaries in a game engaged your character outside of any ranged weapon's first range increment? Because I can tell you right now I've never been in such a situation.
you only get a single shot with the Far-Reaching Sight
|
|
The part of the discussion that gets me is that people treat the touch AC portion as though the gunslinger will always attack in that range. While it's a good idea to treat things as optimized, remember that dragon with a poor touch AC has load of natural attacks, and the gunslinger will be very close in light armor. Not a good idea, if you ask me.Yeah except that with a rifle you can make those wonderful touch attacks out to a range of 400 feet. 100 feet with a revolver. Doesn't sound like 'very close' to me.1)unless you have far shot you are taking a -10 penalty to those attacks
2)you are not always going to have that much room to shoot
You're right but if a 15th level gunslinger (+15 base attack) is shooting at the aforementioned red dragon, he still only misses on a 1.
And I agree about the second point as well, 95% of combats are going to occur within 100 feet or so. Just due to the real world size of most game tables.