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By that logic, no melee class is ever viable, and all games past 12th are scry and fry.
At 12th level, I would think the slinger and everyone else in the party is going to have bigger worries than one single creature at any given time. Sure it will come up but what about group battles? what about when the BBEG is throwing spells at their max range (840 ft) at the slinger? hell you could probably magic missile him to death at that point, cause he's never getting close enough to shoot them (if MM had long range. thought it did. My example still stands.)Yeah. Pretty much, that's how the logic goes. No arguments there, except that nobody said Scry, but I can see how you would assume that. 840 feet is a long way.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception
You would have to scry, unless you roll an 84 perception.
Distance to the source, object, or creature = +1/10 feet
That's more a problem with Perception rules than anything else.
That is the issues. You effectively negated the defenses built into the game, for no mechanical reason.
I agree here. Maybe the ability will be left as is for good in the end, but what Ciretose said should be taken into consideration.
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As to damage potentialGun Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm.
Which combined with deadly aim and the 4x crit of firearms is pretty good.
No. Their damage potential isn't pretty good. It would be, if they could do full attacks. Deadshot is a mess. They have no access to Manyshot and their dexterity bonus is still going to be less than strength bonus + weapon training + duelist's gloves + WS + GWS.
They just aren't anywhere near the DPR of an archer fighter, an archer ranger or even an archer bard.
The whole point, from the beginning, is that it is unbalanced for a full BAB character to have something more powerful than a non-full BAB class would be able to get at the same level.Would you argue wave of fatigue, a 4th level spell, is more powerful than this deed? Would you argue the spell confusion is? Would you argue any ability or spell, available at 7th level, is?
And then the next level is when it is more or less free at 11th level.
Waves of fatigue is a standard action, affects multiple targets and it's effect does not end by simply standing up or picking up your weapon.
At the moment, Gunslingers should be compared to Wizards, as I've written above, their damage potential is rather low, so comparing them to other combat classes would be a mistake.Both of those actions provoke AoO.
Waves of Fatigue moves an unarmored low hit point character within 30 feet of the enemy, who then takes a -2 to str and -dex...as does anyone else in the cone, including allies.
So you either hit friends or cleared a direct line between you and the bad guy.
Not a problem if you have d10 hit points and are a dex based armor wearing class. But it is a problem if you are a wizard.
As to damage potential
Gun Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm.
Which combined with deadly aim and the 4x crit of firearms is pretty good.
1) Shooting a gun provokes an attack of opportunity without a feat. And you can't "shoot defensively." You can cast defensively. And at high levels, the check is easy to make.
2) Assuming a full party, a mage likely has the backup of a tank and cleric to keep from murdering him, and hits multiple enemies with a single wave. And don't forget that this exposed mage can have a huge defensive bonus due to spells cast on himself.
A gunslinger can hit 1 guy from middling range at a major detriment to his attack bonus, or 1 guy from ridiculously close range without penalty and at touch AC. All with a full-round action if you want to use Targeting, and sacrificing Grit. However he does not have the spell shielding, and he probably can't take advantage of his high dex without using crappy armor, since he doesn't have armor training. He might get guarded from attacks at close range, but since he DOES have that d10 health, people will be less worried about him and he's more likely to get hit.
3) His damage potential is still quite low, lacking any bonuses to damage other than gun training (no strength damage, weapon spec, weapon training, arcane strike, smite, challenge, judgment, sneak attack, or any of that fun stuff). The x4 crit will pop up less than 5% of the time, since he has to confirm the hit. His only boon is that he gets deadly aim, which pairs nice with touch AC.
That's more a problem with Perception rules than anything else.No, it's saying if someone is almost the length of three football fields away, you can't see them effectively.
Which is crap, it's entirely possible to see someone a mile or more away. It would be hard to hit them sure, but unless they're trying to hide it's not hard to see someone ~900 feet away.
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1) Shooting a gun provokes an attack of opportunity without a feat. And you can't "shoot defensively." You can cast defensively. And at high levels, the check is easy to make.2) Assuming a full party, a mage likely has the backup of a tank and cleric to keep from murdering him, and hits multiple enemies with a single wave. And don't forget that this exposed mage can have a huge defensive bonus due to spells cast on himself.
A gunslinger can hit 1 guy from middling range at a major detriment to his attack bonus, or 1 guy from ridiculously close range without penalty and at touch AC. All with a full-round action if you want to use Targeting, and sacrificing Grit. However he does not have the spell shielding, and he probably can't take advantage of his high dex without using crappy armor, since he doesn't have armor training. He might get guarded from attacks at close range, but since he DOES have that d10 health, people will be less worried about him and he's more likely to get hit.3) His damage potential is still quite low, lacking any bonuses to damage other than gun training (no strength damage, weapon spec, weapon training, arcane strike, smite, challenge, judgment, sneak attack, or any of that fun stuff). The x4 crit will pop up less than 5% of the time, since he has to confirm the hit. His only boon is that he gets deadly aim, which pairs nice with touch AC.
1) Yes, and what gunslinger isn't going to take the Deft Shootist as soon as they are able (should be a class feature...)
2) Since most defensive spells are round per level, when is he casting them considering economy of action. And you are giving the caster a party to cover for his weaknesses, but looking at the gunslinger in a vacuum because he doesn't need help since he has d10 and good AC...but that is a negative in your description?
3) Dual wielding pistols is less of an attack penalty when you are going against touch attacks. You are adding your dex to damage that has a 4X modifier on crits (which is a lot), and you can put enhancements on your guns the same as any other weapon. The only thing you don't get is fighter weapon specialization or barbarian rage.
Deadly aim doesn't work against touch ac.
I think you are underestimating damage output. I'm sure someone will DPR it up soon. I'm going to bed.
Deadly aim doesn't work against touch ac.
You'd best read the playtest document again. It does, in fact, work with guns. Deadly aim does not work with a touch attack. A gun attack is a normal attack resolved against touch AC, however. It's in the Basic Firearm Rules in the beta doc.
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Okay, let's take a look at the DPR of a 12th level gunslinger. That way he can easily be compared to the current DPR contest thread. Pointbuy 20, 108,000 gp of equipment. Starting Values are Str 7, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 16, Cha 7
The legendary Gundolph
Human Gunslinger 12
Init +9, Perception +19
AC 30, touch 20, flat-footed 19
hp 100
Fort +13, Reflex +20, Will +11
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +4 musket +25/+20/+15 (1d12+13, 19-20, x4)
Str 7, Dex 29, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 18, Cha 7
Skills: Perception +19, Acrobatics +22, Sleight of Hand +22
Feats: Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Gunsmithing, Far Shot, Improved Critical (musket)
Equipment: Belt of Dexterity +6, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, +4 Musket, Cloak of Resistance +3, Celestial Armor, Ring of Protection +1
For simplicity's sake, let's assume all of his attacks have a 95% chance to hit in the first range increment, even with Deadly Aim.
He spends a point of grit to use Deadshot (since it's supposed to fix the gunslinger).
So his DPR would be
6.5*0.95*3
+(1-0.05^3)*22
+0.1*0.95*3*28.5 (assuming that each attack can crit, at the moment the wording is rather confusing)
= ~43.23
This of course ignores the chance for a misfire, but even with this favorable simplification, his damage is NOT impressive.
If Deadshot gets fixed I'm okay with Called Shots and Stunning Shots being a bit more difficult to pull of, but right now, they're all the gunslinger has.
"If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude."
You get a check, and only lose 10 feet if you fail it. This doesn't give you a check, you just start falling.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-F alling
Give this to a barbarian as a rage power, and tell me it isn't broken.
Replace stunning fist with this and tell me it isn't broken.
Now make that a ranged, and possibly a touch attack.
Facing pretty much anything, Shoot him in the head, you get damage and they are confused the next round, with no save.
Fighting huge BBEG. Shoot him in the leg and knock him prone, still giving damage.
BBEG has the item you want for your quest? No need to worry, just shoot it out of his hand with no CMD.
Make it your signature deed and do it without even losing any grit!
If there were saves, it would be fine. It is the fact that there are no saves.
Absolutely agreed. Anything that makes a CR infinity higher than you automatically fall out of the sky is too good. Give the ability a save.
thats spending grit to shoot touch ac farther otherwise you must hit its normal ac, and even then its stunned for one round, then you are dead.
Pathfinder is not a one-on-one game. Your party comrades will do their thing meanwhile. The ability is too good.
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Deadly aim doesn't work against touch ac.You'd best read the playtest document again. It does, in fact, work with guns. Deadly aim does not work with a touch attack. A gun attack is a normal attack resolved against touch AC, however. It's in the Basic Firearm Rules in the beta doc.
Your quote
"His only boon is that he gets deadly aim, which pairs nice with touch AC."
My comment.
"Deadly aim doesn't work against touch ac. "
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Your quote
"His only boon is that he gets deadly aim, which pairs nice with touch AC."
My comment.
"Deadly aim doesn't work against touch ac. "
My comment.
"In this case, it does."
When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC, but is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim.
Having read the last three pages, this is how I understand the debate. Consider this a summary for the TL;DR group.
The discussion surrounds the Startling Shot and Targeting Deeds at 7th level. The gunslinger is able to cause someone to become flat-footed as a standard action as long as there is 1 grit point in the pool, and spending 1 grit point allows for the confusion effect or trip as a full-round action with no saves allowed on the target's part. The bigger issue at hand is the confusion with no save or the trip without making a CMD check.
The issue is whether or not these abilities make the gunslinger overpowered.
Ciretose finds these overpowered, citing the fact that the gunslinger could effectively do this every round with the right selections, has the best HD and BAB possible, and the gun hits touch AC under the proper conditions.
The Ravingdork group (sorry, but you pop up most in this discussion) claim that this is not overpowered and simply gives a special type of utility to the gunslinger, making the class unique when compared to the other classes.
My personal views and concerns: Having read the debate, I generally side with the Ravingdork group. I personally do not think that HD and BAB are as big of an issue as Ciretose makes it out to be, especially when spellcasters are treated as powerhouses both in combat and theorycrafting. However, I am sympathetic to Ciretose's concerns. I see the concern not so much with the gunslinger being overpowered but with the supposedly awesome combat maneuver class, the monk, being outclassed in this one section. The monk doesn't seem to get much love despite its overhaul from 3.5. I do understand, however, that the monk has to get within melee range and make a CMD check as a standard action. The gunslinger has to spend the grit and make the ranged attack with no leftover actions since it's a full-round action.
With all this, this is a matter of taste and opinion, not hard fact. The weight that Ciretose gives to HD and BAB is different from the Ravingdork group. The weight of choosing the Legs Targeting Deed (normal damage + free trip) over the Dead Shot Deed (extra damage similar to the Vital Strike feat) probably differs for these two groups as well, and there's a lot to consider in different combat situations that would determine the usefulness of one over the other.
I don't think the gunslinger needs to be fixed further on this point. If a fix does occur, I would suggest an extra penalty to hit (-2 or -4) for the Targeting Deed.
The Stunning Shot Deed just makes the rogue love the gunslinger, although that can be DPR'ed and depends on the rogue, the gunslinger, and the positioning of those two along with the target in question.
I must say, I am somewhat amazed that there seems to be a vocal sub-group of people here who are loudly for no-save abilities. In general, the less of those exist, the better for game balance. The ones we have are already more than enough.
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Okay, let's take a look at the DPR of a 12th level gunslinger. That way he can easily be compared to the current DPR contest thread. Pointbuy 20, 108,000 gp of equipment. Starting Values are Str 7, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 16, Cha 7
The legendary Gundolph
Human Gunslinger 12
Init +9, Perception +19AC 30, touch 20, flat-footed 19
hp 100
Fort +13, Reflex +20, Will +11Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +4 musket +25/+20/+15 (1d12+13, 19-20, x4)Str 7, Dex 29, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 18, Cha 7
Skills: Perception +19, Acrobatics +22, Sleight of Hand +22
Feats: Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Gunsmithing, Far Shot, Improved Critical (musket)
Equipment: Belt of Dexterity +6, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, +4 Musket, Cloak of Resistance +3, Celestial Armor, Ring of Protection +1For simplicity's sake, let's assume all of his attacks have a 95% chance to hit in the first range increment, even with Deadly Aim.
He spends a point of grit to use Deadshot (since it's supposed to fix the gunslinger).
So his DPR would be
6.5*0.95*3
+(1-0.05^3)*22
+0.1*0.95*3*28.5 (assuming that each attack can crit, at the moment the wording is rather confusing)= ~43.23
This of course ignores the chance for a misfire, but even with this favorable simplification, his damage is NOT impressive.
If Deadshot gets fixed I'm okay with Called Shots and Stunning Shots being a bit more difficult to pull of, but right now, they're all the gunslinger has.
6.5 for the weapon base, +4 for enhancement (10.5) +9 for dex (19.5) + 8 deadly aim (27.5) + 11 (%10 crit chance of 27.5*4) + Point blank =
39 per shot. 3 shots a round at +25/+20/+15. If in touch range, hits on anything but a 1.
Damage per round between 78 (one miss) and 127 (all hit) if you are firing from touch attack range.
I'm sleep deprived, so feel free to correct my math.
IMHO the point is not balance but consistency.
Wanna a trip shot? Fair enough, but is vs CMD. Mechanics do exist for world coherency too.
IMHO the point is not balance but consistency.
Wanna a trip shot? Fair enough, but is vs CMD. Mechanics do exist for world coherency too.
+1
The advantage is being able to do it ranged.
On the other hand, maneuvers could be encouraged getting rid of the "max one size larger" rule, since CMD already covers that. IMHO. But this is another issue.
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Having read the last three pages, this is how I understand the debate. Consider this a summary for the TL;DR group.
The discussion surrounds the Startling Shot and Targeting Deeds at 7th level. The gunslinger is able to cause someone to become flat-footed as a standard action as long as there is 1 grit point in the pool, and spending 1 grit point allows for the confusion effect or trip as a full-round action with no saves allowed on the target's part. The bigger issue at hand is the confusion with no save or the trip without making a CMD check.
The issue is whether or not these abilities make the gunslinger overpowered.
Ciretose finds these overpowered, citing the fact that the gunslinger could effectively do this every round with the right selections, has the best HD and BAB possible, and the gun hits touch AC under the proper conditions.
The Ravingdork group (sorry, but you pop up most in this discussion) claim that this is not overpowered and simply gives a special type of utility to the gunslinger, making the class unique when compared to the other classes.
My personal views and concerns: Having read the debate, I generally side with the Ravingdork group. I personally do not think that HD and BAB are as big of an issue as Ciretose makes it out to be, especially when spellcasters are treated as powerhouses both in combat and theorycrafting. However, I am sympathetic to Ciretose's concerns. I see the concern not so much with the gunslinger being overpowered but with the supposedly awesome combat maneuver class, the monk, being outclassed in this one section. The monk doesn't seem to get much love despite its overhaul from 3.5. I do understand, however, that the monk has to get within melee range and make a CMD check as a standard action. The gunslinger has to spend the grit and make the ranged attack with no leftover actions since it's a full-round action.
With all this, this is a matter of taste and opinion, not hard fact. The weight that Ciretose gives to HD and BAB is different from the...
Good post. We disagree, but you formulated your stance well.
Full BAB means the class is designed to hit very often, and full HD means it is designed to be able to soak damage. It is a class that can get in close without worry, unlike an arcane caster.
Like I showed above, that 12th level gunslinger they built is +25/+20/+15 normally, meaning even outside of the first range increment they are still more likely to hit than a 3/4 Bab class (they are 3 behind at 12th) and have an additional attack. And inside the range increment, even the lowest attack will likely hit most things on anything but a one.
The 1/2 BaB classes are not only at +6 to hit with touch spells, they are not likely to have much invested in things that increase their chances to hit with those spells. Even a wizard with an 18 dex is has a +11 ranged touch, 4 lower than even the gunslingers lowest ranged touch attack.
And the damage I showed above is only for standard ammunition. While it doesn't beat a fighter, the fact that it is touch means it will hit things fighters won't.
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6.5 for the weapon base, +4 for enhancement (10.5) +9 for dex (19.5) + 8 deadly aim (27.5) + 11 (%10 crit chance of 27.5*4) + Point blank =39 per shot. 3 shots a round at +25/+20/+15. If in touch range, hits on anything but a 1.
Damage per round between 78 (one miss) and 127 (all hit) if you are firing from touch attack range.
I'm sleep deprived, so feel free to correct my math.
Your critical math is off in several ways.
1. He still needs to confirm the threat, so that's an additional 0.95 multiplier.2. A x4 multiplier only adds three times the damage.
Like I wrote, he uses Dead Shot since it costs grit and is supposed to fix the Gunslinger. There is no way to make a full attack with a musket, even with cartridges, Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload.
With Rapid Reload and Cartridges, you can make full attacks with a pistol. With a reliable distance pistol should be able to deal acceptable damage, but that makes Dead Shot even more useless.
And the gunslinger is not okay. He's horribly broken. I know, high level play is supposed to be broken, but the ability to keep groups enemy in stunlock with a >99% chance of success is not okay.
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6.5 for the weapon base, +4 for enhancement (10.5) +9 for dex (19.5) + 8 deadly aim (27.5) + 11 (%10 crit chance of 27.5*4) + Point blank =39 per shot. 3 shots a round at +25/+20/+15. If in touch range, hits on anything but a 1.
Damage per round between 78 (one miss) and 127 (all hit) if you are firing from touch attack range.
I'm sleep deprived, so feel free to correct my math.
Your critical math is off in several ways.
1. He still needs to confirm the threat, so that's an additional 0.95 multiplier.
2. A x4 multiplier only adds three times the damage.Like I wrote, he uses Dead Shot since it costs grit and is supposed to fix the Gunslinger. There is no way to make a full attack with a musket, even with cartridges, Rapid Reload and Lightning Reload.
With Rapid Reload and Cartridges, you can make full attacks with a pistol. With a reliable distance pistol should be able to deal acceptable damage, but that makes Dead Shot even more useless.And the gunslinger is not okay. He's horribly broken. I know, high level play is supposed to be broken, but the ability to keep groups enemy in stunlock with a >99% chance of success is not okay.
See, sleep deprived :)
Still does very good damage when you consider it they are ranged touch attacks, and also consider we aren't adding in special ammunition.
I say they either scrap or simplify the grit mechanics and make the deeds into rogue feats. I know they want to have a hook to get the character some reason to put points in wisdom, but as written it is a lot of table calculation and note taking.
If you really want to have wisdom boost, maybe allow 1 pt of wisdom to go toward AC and Init for every 3 levels of Gunslinger, as long as they wear light armor. That would prevent level dipping, and give wisdom a benefit.
Let the Gunslinger have class skills that let him reload at speed at 5th level, reduce misfire chances as part of gun training, and receive the obvious feats he'll need as part of the class.
Make the gun the class. Everyone can have a gun, only the gunslinger can make the gun sing.
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How does a level 12 Human Gunslinger have so many combat feats? It should only have 1 from the human racial and 3 bonus feats. If you want damage try calculating a Human Gunslinger 1 Weapon Master 19 thats using two weapon fighting revolvers.
6 feats for level 12 character, one for being human, three for Gunslinger levels 4, 8 and 12. Gunsmithing is a bonus feat. Advanced Firearms are utterly broken and unavailable in most campaign settings.
If you want to multiclass you should at least wait till level 5. Dexterity on damage rolls is rather nice.After checking a few rules, I think I found a rather effective way for the Gunslinger to deal damage. It's either awesome or stupid, depending on your preferences.
The legendary Gundolph
Human Gunslinger 12
Init +9, Perception +19
AC 30, touch 20, flat-footed 19
hp 100
Fort +13, Reflex +20, Will +11
Speed 30 ft.
Ranged +1 broken distance seeking pepperbox +15/+10/+5 (1d8+10, x2), +1 broken distance seeking pepperbox +15/+15/+10 (1d8+10, x2)
Str 7, Dex 29, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 18, Cha 7
Skills: Perception +19, Acrobatics +22, Sleight of Hand +22
Feats: Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge, Mobility, Gunsmithing, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Signature Deed (Expert Loading), Deft Shootist
Equipment: Belt of Dexterity +6, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, +4 Musket, Cloak of Resistance +3, Celestial Armor, Ring of Protection +1, 2 +1 distance seeking pepperbox guns, 2 weapon cords (Adventurer's Armory)
That way, he gets 6 attacks per round. Using paper cartridges, he can reload his guns as a free action. He still needs a free hand, but here the weapon cords come into play. He simply drops one of the guns as a free action, reloads the other and than retrieves his gun as a free action.
By using pepperboxes and paper cartridges, his misfire rating rises to 3, so he'll probably break his guns sooner or later, increasing his misfire chance even further. But since signature deed allows him to stop a misfiring gun from exploding, he just accepts that he needs to roll a 6 or higher to hit. With his penalties on attack rolls, he'd have a hard time hitting on a 2 anyway.
So with Deadly Aim and Point Blank Shot his attacks would be:
+1 distance seeking pepperbox +12/+7/+3 (1d8+19, x2)
+1 distance seeking pepperbox +12/+12/+3 (1d8+19, x2)
Each attack has an average damage of 23.5, which isn't that bad, considering he has six of them.
Let's say he's against a touch AC of 14.
(0.75*23.5+0.05*23.5*0.75)*5
+0.5*23.5+0.05*23.5
=~105.5 DPR
Not overwhelmingly good, but acceptable at this point.
Another option would be rapidhooting a single pistol, maybe combined with boots of speed. The damage should be comparable.
At the current point, two-handed firearms are horrible since they can not be used more than once per round. Even with Dead Shot, their damage potential remains pitiful.
PS: Of course there's the rifles, but that weapon is obviously overpowered and rightfully unavailable in most campaigns.
Holy blowing-up thread, Batman!
There has been a lot of good armchair analysis on this tread, and some things we are definitely going to think on.
That said, I want to see you playtest this! We weigh playtest data over theoretics...that's why we have playtests.
So go out, create some of these situations, play the game, and come back and tell us how it went.
Oh and do so dispassionately and fairly. You don't get XP for winning internet arguments no matter how long the thread gets in a few hours! ;-)
Thanks everyone!
Jadeite, one thing..
Weapon cords, RAW, cannot be used during a full attack as far as I know. Only before or after because are a swift action.
In my game I allow it because is fun (already used with hand crossbows), but maybe not every DM could do the same.
BTW, I think that there is a need for two weapon fighting feats helping hand crossbows and pistols (in the case of the latter, the -4/-4 kills a little bit the iconic dual wield).
Holy blowing-up thread, Batman!
/...request to run actual playtests.../
Oh and do so dispassionately and fairly. You don't get XP for winning internet arguments no matter how long the thread gets in a few hours! ;-)
Thanks everyone!
Damn... and probably no roleplay xp for trolling right?
In all seriousness I really want to playtest this class but I cant think of a place to do it. I really want to see what it's like to run a gunslinger from 1st level. I think the fact that you need time to craft (the presumed solution to needing 11gp per shot) is a problem. The time isnt available in alot of games I have played in.
I am reserving my judgement on the class as best I can because I honestly dont have a clue. This class is very different and has problems no other class has. It also has strengths no other class has. My theory crafting fu isn't strong enough to sort this one out.
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Jadeite, one thing..
Weapon cords, RAW, cannot be used during a full attack as far as I know. Only before or after because are a swift action.
In my game I allow it because is fun, but maybe not every DM could do the same.
They are not used during the attack. The Pepperbox has a capacity of six shots and you can reload them as a free action.
Gunslingers turn:
Fire three shots from gun 1
Fire three shots from gun 2
Each gun has now three shots left.
Drop gun 2 as a free action
Reload gun 1 as a free action
Retrieve gun 2 as a swift action
Next turn:
Fire three shots from gun 1
Fire three shots from gun 2
Gun 1 has now three shots left, gun 2 is empty.
Drop gun 1 as a free action
Reload gun 2 as a free action
Retrieve gun 1 as a swift action
Although using just one pistol will probably be better, using broken guns hurts the DPR, mostly because of the reduced critical multiplier. It also frees up feat slots for Improved Critical and Precise Shot. Two attacks less, much more precision.
The gunslinger is a passable damage dealer, he just has to stay away from two-handed firearms and Dead Shot.
Although, even the musket wielder has some benefits. Since he can't get full attacks, he gains a lot of mobility by level 11 if he takes Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike (although I generally despise these feats). And with Signature Deed (targeting) he gains a lot of utility, too.
And in those 12 possible attacks the possibility of me rolling a one and f'n up my gun... slows that progression up a bit.
I seem to have an uncanny attraction to rolling ones on my 20 sided
They are not used during the attack. The Pepperbox has a capacity of six shots and you can reload them as a free action.Gunslingers turn:
Fire three shots from gun 1
Fire three shots from gun 2
Each gun has now three shots left.
Drop gun 2 as a free action
Reload gun 1 as a free action
Retrieve gun 2 as a swift actionNext turn:
Fire three shots from gun 1
Fire three shots from gun 2
Gun 1 has now three shots left, gun 2 is empty.
Drop gun 1 as a free action
Reload gun 2 as a free action
Retrieve gun 1 as a swift actionAlthough using just one pistol will probably be better, using broken guns hurts the DPR, mostly because of the reduced critical multiplier. It also frees up feat slots for Improved Critical and Precise Shot. Two attacks less, much more precision.
The gunslinger is a passable damage dealer, he just has to stay away from two-handed firearms and Dead Shot.
Although, even the musket wielder has some benefits. Since he can't get full attacks, he gains a lot of mobility by level 11 if he takes Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike (although I generally despise these feats). And with Signature Deed (targeting) he gains a lot of utility, too.
Awesome.
Holy blowing-up thread, Batman!
There has been a lot of good armchair analysis on this tread, and some things we are definitely going to think on.
That said, I want to see you playtest this! We weigh playtest data over theoretics...that's why we have playtests.
So go out, create some of these situations, play the game, and come back and tell us how it went.
Oh and do so dispassionately and fairly. You don't get XP for winning internet arguments no matter how long the thread gets in a few hours! ;-)
Thanks everyone!
+1 to this
I have playtested the mung bean out of gunslinger in most of these conditions (no dragons yet) and gunslingers are not tanks, and getting in that range for touch ac can get kinda hairy. Getting grit back and a few things have changed so we have to redo scenarios now, but the tripping and disarming and confusion existed in round 1 and didnt get much use due to low grit.
And in those 12 possible attacks the possibility of me rolling a one and f'n up my gun... slows that progression up a bit.No. The guns are already broken, but they will never explode. That's part of the beauty.
why won't they explode?
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why won't they explode?And in those 12 possible attacks the possibility of me rolling a one and f'n up my gun... slows that progression up a bit.No. The guns are already broken, but they will never explode. That's part of the beauty.
The Expert Loading deed allows the Gunslinger to keep a gun from exploding by spending one point of grit. Signature deed (Expert Loading) reduces that cost by one, allowing the gunslinger to do so for free as long as he has at least one point of grit.
Turn it around in your campaign and have a gunslinger attacking your party and see if your fighter is ok with being disarmed with a ranged touch attack despite having the highest CMD in the game. Or your Paladin is ok with being confused despite a ridiculously high will save. Or your rogue is tripped without a reflex save.
Oh my players would get a kick out of this! The gunslinger would waste his entire round doing a trick shot, than the party would butcher him!
Gunslinger disarms fighter of his bow as a full-round action. Fighter picks up bow as a move action and shoots gunslinger in the head as a standard action. Gunslinger dies.
Gunslinger confuses party cleric as a full round action. Party cleric rolls a 15 on his percentile die, moves behind fighter for cover from future shots, and blasts gunslinger as a standard action. Gunslinger dies.
Gunslinger disarms party wizard of his staff as a full round action and laughs because he no longer has his arcane focus. Wizard laughs right back "I only tell people my power is in my staff to mislead them!" A moment later, he blasts the gunslinger as a standard action after moving behind cover of his own.
Seriously. This ability has some use, but in the scenario you describe it is extremely weak (even with the auto success) due to the nature of action economy. God forbid a single gunslinger try doing this to an ENTIRE party. He will get raped.
If I turn off the lights in my room, I'm not blind. It's just now dark in my room.
You're half right. It IS dark in the room, as you say, but you ARE INDEED blind (short of being a dwarf).
The whole point, from the beginning, is that it is unbalanced for a full BAB character to have something more powerful than a non-full BAB class would be able to get at the same level.
Now you're being a little more clear in your intent.
That's more a problem with Perception rules than anything else.
I agree. I only use those rules in the heat of combat where everyone is distracted and some things are easily missed. Use it all the time and suddenly you can't see down the hall of your own home in bright light.
Anything that makes a CR infinity higher than you automatically fall out of the sky is too good. Give the ability a save.
Anything with CR infinity will have other defenses besides touch AC. Assuming the gunslinger somehow still managed to land the hit and the CR infinity creature crashes to the ground, what do you think will happen? It will EAT the gunslinger. It's a self-correcting problem in that it only happens once. Why? Because the gunslinger is now dead and prospecting gunslingers aren't stupid enough to take shots at the CR infinity creature flying above them (cause they saw what happened to the last guy).
There's also a lot of talk about gunslinger stunlock. What stunlock? The confusion effect doesn't lock anyone down hardly ever. Stunlock are called stunlocks because they are reliable and totally screw up the enemy. Targeting neither screws up the enemy nor is it reliable.
I will see about doing some actual playtests in order to better prove my many points and disprove Ciretose's points.
Ravingdork, I'm pretty sure Citerose point was the coherency of the ability with other stuff in the game. Why should it affect the same waywith the same chances characters with different saves or CMD?
I'm sorry, but there is a difference between drop a possibly problematic darkness area spell and blind someone. They are not even comparable.
Stuff you have said
+1 agree with. Morale support, anyways.
Only two ways to fix this.
A) Kiss your dragons, demons, and other huge creatures goodbye... The world has changed.
B) Come out with new, weirder, deadly creatures that have high dex, high deflection, high Holy/Profane bonus to AC, Immunity to Piercing and Blunt weapons, Resistance to gunshots 10. 15. 20, Bulletproof Special ability, Lots and lots of Fine or Diminutive creatures that get size bonus to AC, etc, etc, etc. Change your fantasy world to accommodated the change in your game rules.