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First off, this is better. While I wouldn't describe the comments below as "nitpicking", since I think they are serious problems, I want to be clear that while I am going to be critical of some aspects I do respect that improvement has been made and progress is going in the right direction.
For example the new gun mechanic for 1st level guns is perfect. And dividing up firearms into standard and advanced was a great change.
But...
1. Armor - Make it light only. Gunslingers don wear chain mail. If you are worried about them needing more AC, maybe give them some kind of bonus from wisdom, like maybe 1/2 wisdom bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor. But I don't think you even need that since they are a dex based class.
It makes no sense for them to be wearing anything but the most bare of armor considering the range of motion required to do what they do.
2. Grit recovery mechanic - I don't like getting it from kills or crits. It is yet another thing to keep track of at the table, and it begs for stealing kills. I really don't like the whole grit mechanic to be honest, as it just feels like action points with a more complex construction. You either have the talent or you don't.
If you are going to keep grit (and that seems likely as it is the central part of the class), make it more like the more fixed and stable ki pool. Personally, I would make deed more like rogue talents and scrap grit all together. Maybe add a ranger like feat chain in it's place for gunslinger styles (Dual pistol, Sniper, Shotgun, Musketeer, etc...). Grit doesn't work for me at all, and seems like a forced mechanic.
3. Startling Shot is overpowered, as there is no save against being made flat footed by a ranged weapon.
4. Targeting is also overpowered as it has no saves against it. It either needs some saves or to be against CMD. Would also change "confused" to stunned, with a similar mechanic to stunning fist. It is very overpowered as is, considering it is a ranged effect with no save.
On a more personal opinion note.
1. Making people take a one level dip in Gunslinger to have grit is better than giving it to them with a feat. But I did a whole other post on why I think guns should be a gunslinger thing...
2. I think rapid-reload for a specific weapon should be a gunslinger thing naturally as a part of gun training. I also think only gunslingers should be able to do this, but that thread already happened and there is no point in dragging it out again.
Im in favor of getting more out of wisdom than just grit, light armor and a wis bonus like a monk would be a good trade.
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Im in favor of getting more out of wisdom than just grit, light armor and a wis bonus like a monk would be a good trade.
I would even go as far as adding wisdom to damage, rather than Dex, for the gun training.
I feel like this is a high wisdom/dex class. Grit just feels forced to me. You make the deeds into talents and you add a ranger like feat chain and you accomplish the same things in a far less clunky way.
I would also make it either a 4 or a 6 skill class. I think the gunslinger is a closer cousin to the ranger than the fighter.
I like that firearms are divided into early and advanced firearms. The new deeds are pretty cool. I may have missed this but can a gunslinger stack deeds on a single attack? For example, can a gunslinger make a targeted attack and cause a bleeding wound with the same shot (if he/she has the grit)? I'm glad they kept daring act as an optional rule. I think it can add flavor to the class and game in general. The class is really starting to come together. Great job!
Yay! Target shot still has no save! As it should be!
Yay! Target shot still has no save! As it should be!It is effectively ranged Disarm/Trip, Confuse or the ability to force flying creatures to fall, with basically no save, at 7th level.
That is just ridiculously broken.
Considering it takes a full round action to do AND costs a grit point (a very limited and valuable resource) I's afraid I will have to COMPLETELY disagree with you. Not broken. Not by a long shot.
Considering it takes a full round action to do AND costs a grit point (a very limited and valuable resource) I's afraid I will have to COMPLETELY disagree with you. Not broken. Not by a long shot.Yay! Target shot still has no save! As it should be!It is effectively ranged Disarm/Trip, Confuse or the ability to force flying creatures to fall, with basically no save, at 7th level.
That is just ridiculously broken.
AND you have to hit! I'm with you, Ravingdork.
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Considering it takes a full round action to do AND costs a grit point (a very limited and valuable resource) I's afraid I will have to COMPLETELY disagree with you. Not broken. Not by a long shot.Yay! Target shot still has no save! As it should be!It is effectively ranged Disarm/Trip, Confuse or the ability to force flying creatures to fall, with basically no save, at 7th level.
That is just ridiculously broken.
It is two ranged combat maneuvers as a touch attack with no save. Normally it is against CMD, which gives some advantage to classes who would be most vulnerable to disarm, although with bonded objects...
Or it is confusion for a round as a touch attack with no save. Compare that to stunning fist which isn't ranged, isn't touch, and has a fort save.
And it basically drops any flying creature, with no save, as a touch attack. Compare that to...well anything.
Tell me again how that isn't broken?
EDIT: And considering every kill or crit gives you one back, Grit points are hardly a hard to restore resource....
Considering it takes a full round action to do AND costs a grit point (a very limited and valuable resource) I's afraid I will have to COMPLETELY disagree with you. Not broken. Not by a long shot.Yay! Target shot still has no save! As it should be!It is effectively ranged Disarm/Trip, Confuse or the ability to force flying creatures to fall, with basically no save, at 7th level.
That is just ridiculously broken.
It is two ranged combat maneuvers as a touch attack with no save. Normally it is against CMD, which gives some advantage to classes who would be most vulnerable to disarm, although with bonded objects...
Or it is confusion for a round as a touch attack with no save. Compare that to stunning fist which isn't ranged, isn't touch, and has a fort save.
And it basically drops any flying creature, with no save, as a touch attack. Compare that to...well anything.
Tell me again how that isn't broken?
Its only a touch attack if your close enough, or spend another grit.
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Its only a touch attack if your close enough, or spend another grit.Considering it takes a full round action to do AND costs a grit point (a very limited and valuable resource) I's afraid I will have to COMPLETELY disagree with you. Not broken. Not by a long shot.Yay! Target shot still has no save! As it should be!It is effectively ranged Disarm/Trip, Confuse or the ability to force flying creatures to fall, with basically no save, at 7th level.
That is just ridiculously broken.
It is two ranged combat maneuvers as a touch attack with no save. Normally it is against CMD, which gives some advantage to classes who would be most vulnerable to disarm, although with bonded objects...
Or it is confusion for a round as a touch attack with no save. Compare that to stunning fist which isn't ranged, isn't touch, and has a fort save.
And it basically drops any flying creature, with no save, as a touch attack. Compare that to...well anything.
Tell me again how that isn't broken?
Yes, and you are a full BAB class.
Name any other feature comparable in any other class, at 7th level.
Name any other feature comparable in any other class, at 7th level.
Okay. Cleric, Druid, Wizard. 4th-level spells. Care to try again?
Its only a touch attack if your close enough, or spend another grit.Considering it takes a full round action to do AND costs a grit point (a very limited and valuable resource) I's afraid I will have to COMPLETELY disagree with you. Not broken. Not by a long shot.Yay! Target shot still has no save! As it should be!It is effectively ranged Disarm/Trip, Confuse or the ability to force flying creatures to fall, with basically no save, at 7th level.
That is just ridiculously broken.
It is two ranged combat maneuvers as a touch attack with no save. Normally it is against CMD, which gives some advantage to classes who would be most vulnerable to disarm, although with bonded objects...
Or it is confusion for a round as a touch attack with no save. Compare that to stunning fist which isn't ranged, isn't touch, and has a fort save.
And it basically drops any flying creature, with no save, as a touch attack. Compare that to...well anything.
Tell me again how that isn't broken?
Yes, and you are a full BAB class.
Name any other feature comparable in any other class, at 7th level.
See Lvl 7 spellcasters?
EDIT: Ninja'd by raving dork
Okay. Cleric, Druid, Wizard. 4th-level spells. Care to try again?Name any other feature comparable in any other class, at 7th level.
Name the spell that has no save.
Again, you are a full BAB class.
Sure the spells have saves, but they last much longer than the 1 turn debuff of the gunslinger.
Sure the spells have saves, but they last much longer than the 1 turn debuff of the gunslinger.Okay. Cleric, Druid, Wizard. 4th-level spells. Care to try again?Name any other feature comparable in any other class, at 7th level.
Name the spell that has no save.
Again, you are a full BAB class.
They are also FAR more versatile. It was a fair comparison. You moving the goal posts, Ciretose, is not fair.
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They are also FAR more versatile. It was a fair comparison. You moving the goal posts, Ciretose, is not fair.Sure the spells have saves, but they last much longer than the 1 turn debuff of the gunslinger.Okay. Cleric, Druid, Wizard. 4th-level spells. Care to try again?Name any other feature comparable in any other class, at 7th level.
Name the spell that has no save.
Again, you are a full BAB class.
I am not moving the goal posts. You have a full BAB (Which also included D10) class able to do things without any saves.
Name the spell that is as good.
No other class can do ranged combat maneuvers, possibly as touch attacks, ignoring CMD.
No other class can confuse the enemy with no save.
No other class can drop a flying creature with no save.
This one deed can do all of those things.
No other class can do ranged combat maneuvers, possibly as touch attacks, ignoring CMD.
No other class can confuse the enemy with no save.
No other class can drop a flying creature with no save.
This one deed can do all of those things.
Well I for one am happy to see a fresh, unique, original class come out rather than something that's just like all the rest.
You keep going on about there being no save, and how that breaks the ability, but keep ignoring the other variables and costs. It takes a full round action AND requires the expenditure of a grit point AND requires you to hit the target (which means you might actually WASTE valuable grit) AND the effects typically only last 1 round! These are balancing factors enough!
Giving it a save or something similar WOULD break it. It would be brokenly weak.
They are also FAR more versatile. It was a fair comparison. You moving the goal posts, Ciretose, is not fair.Sure the spells have saves, but they last much longer than the 1 turn debuff of the gunslinger.Okay. Cleric, Druid, Wizard. 4th-level spells. Care to try again?Name any other feature comparable in any other class, at 7th level.
Name the spell that has no save.
Again, you are a full BAB class.
I am not moving the goal posts. You have a full BAB (Which also included D10) class able to do things without any saves.
Name the spell that is as good.
No other class can do ranged combat maneuvers, possibly as touch attacks, ignoring CMD.
No other class can confuse the enemy with no save.
No other class can drop a flying creature with no save.
This one deed can do all of those things.
For a grit point, you need to hit, and in the case of confusion it only lasts one round. You are also using your whole round to do this. So one whole round, plus 1 grit, plus you need to hit.
Casters at level 7 can confuse multiple targets for multiple rounds.
Well I'm happy to see a fresh, unique, original class come about rather than something that's just like all the rest.
You keep going on about there being no save, and how that breaks it, but keep ignoring the other variables and costs. It takes a full round action AND requires the expenditure of a grit point AND requires you to hit the target (which means you might actually WASTE grit)!
Giving it a save or something similar WOULD break it. It would be brokenly weak.
By itself, I agree with you Ravingdork. However, I really don't like the fact that someone can take the Signature Deed Feat and do this infinitely. Because that's what I would do...
By itself, I agree with you Ravingdork. However, I really don't like the fact that someone can take the Signature Deed Feat and do this infinitely. Because that's what I would do...Well I'm happy to see a fresh, unique, original class come about rather than something that's just like all the rest.
You keep going on about there being no save, and how that breaks it, but keep ignoring the other variables and costs. It takes a full round action AND requires the expenditure of a grit point AND requires you to hit the target (which means you might actually WASTE grit)!
Giving it a save or something similar WOULD break it. It would be brokenly weak.
and now the discussion moves to is it balanced at 11th level
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For a grit point, you need to hit, and in the case of confusion it only lasts one round. You are also using your whole round to do this. So one whole round, plus 1 grit, plus you need to hit.
Casters at level 7 can confuse multiple targets for multiple rounds.
Wizards who can't wear armor and get d6 hit dice. And it has a save and Spell resistance. Sorcerers can't until 8th, and there is nothing close to power for divine casters.
And they can't do ranged combat maneuvers ignoring CMD, or drop flying creatures without a save.
Grit points are cheap, as they are restored with any kill or crit. Hell, if you have an 18 wisdom you can do it more often than a caster can cast it.
It is very, very broken.
Edit: Oh, and it also does damage while it confuses someone with no save...same for trip...
you only get a grit on the first kill of the day.
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you only get a grit on the first kill of the day.
Not any longer:
Killing Blow with a Firearm: When the gunslinger reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any grit.
Critical Hit is also (almost) every time, as well:
Critical Hit with a Firearm: Each time the gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level does not restore grit.
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you only get a grit on the first kill of the day.
Where does it say that?
"Killing Blow with a Firearm: When the gunslinger reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point.
Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any grit."
Not to mention you can increase it with feats, magic items, or having it as your signature deed...
Arcane bonded item goes "poof". Anything with legs is prone. Anything with a head is confused. Anything flying is not falling...
Only save is against a full BAB class's highest attack, or even possibly their highest attack vs your touch attack.
It makes CMD meaningless. It makes high saves meaningless.
you only get a grit on the first kill of the day.Not any longer:
Killing Blow with a Firearm: When the gunslinger reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any grit.Critical Hit is also (almost) every time, as well:
Critical Hit with a Firearm: Each time the gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level does not restore grit.
Well that was a much needed change.
you only get a grit on the first kill of the day.Where does it say that?
It said it in the earlier playtest documents. It seems to have been changed.
It makes CMD meaningless. It makes high saves meaningless.
Or maybe it makes the Gunslinger special. ;P
For a grit point, you need to hit, and in the case of confusion it only lasts one round. You are also using your whole round to do this. So one whole round, plus 1 grit, plus you need to hit.
Casters at level 7 can confuse multiple targets for multiple rounds.
Wizards who can't wear armor and get d6 hit dice. And it has a save and Spell resistance. Sorcerers can't until 8th, and there is nothing close to power for divine casters.
And they can't do ranged combat maneuvers ignoring CMD, or drop flying creatures without a save.
Grit points are cheap, as they are restored with any kill or crit. Hell, if you have an 18 wisdom you can do it more often than a caster can cast it.
It is very, very broken.
Edit: Oh, and it also does damage while it confuses someone with no save...same for trip...
gunslingers are using grit for a lot of their other class abilities as well, and you don't get grit for every kill, just kills against stronger creatures, that are actually fighting, and for critical confirms. the only flying creature you drop are specifically ones with wings.
So you are saying with 18 wisdom you get 4 uses per day, ok then you need to hit so you need good Dex. you wanna live to so you need good con. So now to do this you need good scores, you need to hit the creature, you need to spend a full round action, you need to conserve your grit for this one class ability and forget all the others.Seems fair to me.
Wizards who can't wear armor and get d6 hit dice. And it has a save and Spell resistance. Sorcerers can't until 8th, and there is nothing close to power for divine casters.And they can't do ranged combat maneuvers ignoring CMD, or drop flying creatures without a save.
Grit points are cheap, as they are restored with any kill or crit. Hell, if you have an 18 wisdom you can do it more often than a caster can cast it.
It is very, very broken.
Edit: Oh, and it also does damage while it confuses someone with no save...same for trip...
Immunity to sneak attack renders one immune to this ability:
Confused for one round and is mind affecting (meaning several things are immune).
Begins to fall is not the same as "knocked out of the air" -- I'll share a hint with you -- according to the fly skill any attack that connects cause you to start to fall.
Honestly, what I would like to see on this is a scaling HD limit. I don't think anyone has any problem with seeing almost automatic trips/disarms/confusion on mooks and the like. However, it's a whole new ball game when it is used on some creature that is +10 CR higher than you- and it still hits trivially when in touch range.
How about set HD limit at Gunslinger limit, and maybe throw in an added caveat of being able to use more grit to affect higher HD creatures.
Honestly, what I would like to see on this is a scaling HD limit. I don't think anyone has any problem with seeing almost automatic trips/disarms/confusion on mooks and the like. However, it's a whole new ball game when it is used on some creature that is +10 CR higher than you- and it still hits trivially when in touch range.
How about set HD limit at Gunslinger limit, and maybe throw in an added caveat of being able to use more grit to affect higher HD creatures.
I don't really think that a HD limit would solve the problem being discussed and with your example, hello mr CR 17 dragon im going to come into touch range and attack you, Oh crap I missed, Gunslinger loses his life the next round. :(
Or the gunslinger manages to irritate the dragon for a couple rounds and then, gets murdered by the dragon. :(|
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Wizards who can't wear armor and get d6 hit dice. And it has a save and Spell resistance. Sorcerers can't until 8th, and there is nothing close to power for divine casters.And they can't do ranged combat maneuvers ignoring CMD, or drop flying creatures without a save.
Grit points are cheap, as they are restored with any kill or crit. Hell, if you have an 18 wisdom you can do it more often than a caster can cast it.
It is very, very broken.
Edit: Oh, and it also does damage while it confuses someone with no save...same for trip...
Immunity to sneak attack renders one immune to this ability:
Confused for one round and is mind affecting (meaning several things are immune).
Begins to fall is not the same as "knocked out of the air" -- I'll share a hint with you -- according to the fly skill any attack that connects cause you to start to fall.
"If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude."
You get a check, and only lose 10 feet if you fail it. This doesn't give you a check, you just start falling.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-F alling
Give this to a barbarian as a rage power, and tell me it isn't broken.
Replace stunning fist with this and tell me it isn't broken.
Now make that a ranged, and possibly a touch attack.
Facing pretty much anything, Shoot him in the head, you get damage and they are confused the next round, with no save.
Fighting huge BBEG. Shoot him in the leg and knock him prone, still giving damage.
BBEG has the item you want for your quest? No need to worry, just shoot it out of his hand with no CMD.
Make it your signature deed and do it without even losing any grit!
If there were saves, it would be fine. It is the fact that there are no saves.
Wizards who can't wear armor and get d6 hit dice. And it has a save and Spell resistance. Sorcerers can't until 8th, and there is nothing close to power for divine casters.And they can't do ranged combat maneuvers ignoring CMD, or drop flying creatures without a save.
Grit points are cheap, as they are restored with any kill or crit. Hell, if you have an 18 wisdom you can do it more often than a caster can cast it.
It is very, very broken.
Edit: Oh, and it also does damage while it confuses someone with no save...same for trip...
Immunity to sneak attack renders one immune to this ability:
Confused for one round and is mind affecting (meaning several things are immune).
Begins to fall is not the same as "knocked out of the air" -- I'll share a hint with you -- according to the fly skill any attack that connects cause you to start to fall.
"If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude."
You get a check, and only lose 10 feet if you fail it. This doesn't give you a check, you just start falling.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-F alling
Give this to a barbarian as a rage power, and tell me it isn't broken.
Replace stunning fist with this and tell me it isn't broken.
Now make that a ranged, and possibly a touch attack.
Facing pretty much anything, Shoot him in the head, you get damage and they are confused the next round, with no save.
Fighting huge BBEG. Shoot him in the leg and knock him prone, still giving damage.
BBEG has the item you want for your quest? No need to worry, just shoot it out of his hand with no CMD.
Make it your signature deed and do it without even losing any grit!
If there were saves, it would be fine. It is the fact that there are no saves.
See my previous posts for my reply, you will reply with the same exact thing you have been saying while varying it slightly.
One new argument you present is, Signature deed. thats at 11th level. Rehash your argument for the previously stated level.
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Honestly, what I would like to see on this is a scaling HD limit. I don't think anyone has any problem with seeing almost automatic trips/disarms/confusion on mooks and the like. However, it's a whole new ball game when it is used on some creature that is +10 CR higher than you- and it still hits trivially when in touch range.
How about set HD limit at Gunslinger limit, and maybe throw in an added caveat of being able to use more grit to affect higher HD creatures.
I don't really think that a HD limit would solve the problem being discussed and with your example, hello mr CR 17 dragon im going to come into touch range and attack you, Oh crap I missed, Gunslinger loses his life the next round. :(
Or the gunslinger manages to irritate the dragon for a couple rounds and then, gets murdered by the dragon. :(
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- red/adult-red-dragon
Adult red dragon, AC 29, Touch AC 8
CR 14.
Level 7 Gunslinger
base attack +7
Dex 20 +5
Range increment is 80 ft. SR is irrelevant, no save. Dragon is confused on anything but a 1.
At 11th make it your signature and just keep confusing him every round.
And touch ac only gets worse as you get bigger.
Broken.
Honestly, what I would like to see on this is a scaling HD limit. I don't think anyone has any problem with seeing almost automatic trips/disarms/confusion on mooks and the like. However, it's a whole new ball game when it is used on some creature that is +10 CR higher than you- and it still hits trivially when in touch range.
How about set HD limit at Gunslinger limit, and maybe throw in an added caveat of being able to use more grit to affect higher HD creatures.
I don't really think that a HD limit would solve the problem being discussed and with your example, hello mr CR 17 dragon im going to come into touch range and attack you, Oh crap I missed, Gunslinger loses his life the next round. :(
Or the gunslinger manages to irritate the dragon for a couple rounds and then, gets murdered by the dragon. :(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- red/adult-red-dragon
Adult red dragon, AC 29, Touch AC 8
CR 14.Level 7 Gunslinger
base attack +7
Dex 20 +5Range increment is 80 ft. SR is irrelevant, no save. Dragon is confused on anything but a 1.
At 11th make it your signature and just keep confusing him every round.
And touch ac only gets worse as you get bigger.
Broken.
thats spending grit to shoot touch ac farther otherwise you must hit its normal ac, and even then its stunned for one round, then you are dead.
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thats spending grit to shoot touch ac farther otherwise you must hit its normal ac, and even then its stunned for one round, then you are dead.
"Range and Penetration: Armor, manufactured or natural, provides little protection against the force of a bullet at short range. When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC, but is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim.
At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally (including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment). Unlike other projectile weapons, most firearms have a maximum range of five range increments."
Rifle has an 80 ft range.
Hell a musket has 40...
Without a save you can do that to a Wyrm...this is why things need saves.
thats spending grit to shoot touch ac farther otherwise you must hit its normal ac, and even then its stunned for one round, then you are dead.
You aren't dead next round if you do it again, and again, and again, and again, and maybe again a few more times because you took extra grit multiple times just to be able to do this.
By that time the rest of the party has had 4+ rounds to open a serious can of whoop ass on a dragon that isn't really doing all that much.
"Range and Penetration: Armor, manufactured or natural, provides little protection against the force of a bullet at short range. When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC, but is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim.At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally (including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment). Unlike other projectile weapons, most firearms have a maximum range of five range increments."
Rifle has an 80 ft range.
Hell a musket has 40...
Without a save you can do that to a Wyrm...this is why things need saves.
Why was the wyrm within first range increment? He has spells and breath, with no reason to close. Besides he also has everything else that dragons have going for him as well.
I guess since this is so powerful though anything that's immune to it must be overpowered too right? Like undead?
Honestly, what I would like to see on this is a scaling HD limit. I don't think anyone has any problem with seeing almost automatic trips/disarms/confusion on mooks and the like. However, it's a whole new ball game when it is used on some creature that is +10 CR higher than you- and it still hits trivially when in touch range.
How about set HD limit at Gunslinger limit, and maybe throw in an added caveat of being able to use more grit to affect higher HD creatures.
I don't really think that a HD limit would solve the problem being discussed and with your example, hello mr CR 17 dragon im going to come into touch range and attack you, Oh crap I missed, Gunslinger loses his life the next round. :(
Or the gunslinger manages to irritate the dragon for a couple rounds and then, gets murdered by the dragon. :(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- red/adult-red-dragon
Adult red dragon, AC 29, Touch AC 8
CR 14.Level 7 Gunslinger
base attack +7
Dex 20 +5Range increment is 80 ft. SR is irrelevant, no save. Dragon is confused on anything but a 1.
At 11th make it your signature and just keep confusing him every round.
And touch ac only gets worse as you get bigger.
Broken.
Note that this situation requires the gunslinger to be level 11, have a rifle or a +1 distance musket (rifles, by definition, are impossibly rare in the default golarion setting). It also requires you to be shelling out a bullet every round. There's misfire (1-2 on a musket) to deal with, as well.
It also requires a perfect situation where the dragon is sitting on the ground within range and not chewing on a party member.
And a confused dragon still has a chance to act normally and royally [pineapple] you up.
-The Beast
"Range and Penetration: Armor, manufactured or natural, provides little protection against the force of a bullet at short range. When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC, but is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim.At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally (including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment). Unlike other projectile weapons, most firearms have a maximum range of five range increments."
Rifle has an 80 ft range.
Hell a musket has 40...
Without a save you can do that to a Wyrm...this is why things need saves.
Why was the wyrm within first range increment? He has spells and breath, with no reason to close. Besides he also has everything else that dragons have going for him as well.
I guess since this is so powerful though anything that's immune to it must be overpowered too right? Like undead?
Rifle is an advanced gun and prolly wont be available in 99% of campaigns, musket yeah 40ft, like hell any dragon would let you get that close, theyed be airborn. Next your reply is then you shoot his wing, well now he is far enough away that you need to hit his real AC, now you reply well then you spend the extra grit to get ranged touch ac, My reply then is what doest the dragon fall the full distance in one round (Which by the way, how far do you fall in a round?)ETC....
thats spending grit to shoot touch ac farther otherwise you must hit its normal ac, and even then its stunned for one round, then you are dead.You aren't dead next round if you do it again, and again, and again, and again, and maybe again a few more times because you took extra grit multiple times just to be able to do this.
By that time the rest of the party has had 4+ rounds to open a serious can of whoop ass on a dragon that isn't really doing all that much.
You are dead because (1) confusion gives the target a chance to act normally and (2) because confusion says you attack the last creature to attack you. Who last attacked the big mean dragon? Oh yeah! The gunslinger.
Dead.
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"Range and Penetration: Armor, manufactured or natural, provides little protection against the force of a bullet at short range. When firing upon a target within a firearm’s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target’s touch AC, but is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim.At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally (including taking the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full-range increment). Unlike other projectile weapons, most firearms have a maximum range of five range increments."
Rifle has an 80 ft range.
Hell a musket has 40...
Without a save you can do that to a Wyrm...this is why things need saves.
Why was the wyrm within first range increment? He has spells and breath, with no reason to close. Besides he also has everything else that dragons have going for him as well.
I guess since this is so powerful though anything that's immune to it must be overpowered too right? Like undead?
You are avoiding the issue, and based on other threads I've seen you on you are better than that.
The fact is when you set up a status effect with no save, it breaks the game. Saves exist to set level equivalency.
It is bad enough that guns are a touch attack, now they can also have status effects without saves?
This is exactly the kind of stuff that broke 3.5 originally. Power creep with loopholes that work outside of the normal framework.
I'm just working off the top of my head, wait until the optimizers get to work.
"The fact is when you set up a status effect with no save, it breaks the game."
This simply isn't true. When you set up a status effect with no limitations, then it breaks the game. There are plenty of status effects without saves that are perfectly balanced. Why? Because they have OTHER limiting factors.
We are not avoiding the issue. You are avoiding rebutting against the other limitations that we brought forth.
What happens if you confuse the dragon round after round? It kills you when you run out of grit, sooner if it gets lucky on its percentile roll, or when you bother to make an attack against it on round 2.
CONFUSION
1-25: Act normally = Dead gunslinger
26-50: Do nothing = Gunslinger dies next round
51-75: Damage self = Gunslinger dies next round
76-100: Attack nearest creature = Dead gunslinger (due to his limited range, he is very likely the nearest creature).
Also, "Any confused creature who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn" pretty much guarantees the gunslinger can't do it round after round without getting himself into hot water.
So basically, the gunslinger used a valuable and limited resource, had to succeed on an attack roll, AND had to get lucky with the enemy rolling a 26-75 only to buy him and his comrades a round.
Seems pretty bloody balanced to me.
"The fact is when you set up a status effect with no save, it breaks the game."
This simply isn't true. When you set up a status effect with no limitations, then it breaks the game. There are plenty of status effects without saves that are perfectly balanced. Why? Because they have OTHER limiting factors.
We are not avoiding the issue. You are avoiding rebutting against the other limitations that we brought forth.
INB4 grit is easy to gain, no save, yada yada yada.
EDIT: Apparently Spending grit, Hitting, and getting into vulnerable position to accomplish isn't limiting enough.
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Honestly, what I would like to see on this is a scaling HD limit. I don't think anyone has any problem with seeing almost automatic trips/disarms/confusion on mooks and the like. However, it's a whole new ball game when it is used on some creature that is +10 CR higher than you- and it still hits trivially when in touch range.
How about set HD limit at Gunslinger limit, and maybe throw in an added caveat of being able to use more grit to affect higher HD creatures.
I don't really think that a HD limit would solve the problem being discussed and with your example, hello mr CR 17 dragon im going to come into touch range and attack you, Oh crap I missed, Gunslinger loses his life the next round. :(
Or the gunslinger manages to irritate the dragon for a couple rounds and then, gets murdered by the dragon. :(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon/chromatic- red/adult-red-dragon
Adult red dragon, AC 29, Touch AC 8
CR 14.Level 7 Gunslinger
base attack +7
Dex 20 +5Range increment is 80 ft. SR is irrelevant, no save. Dragon is confused on anything but a 1.
At 11th make it your signature and just keep confusing him every round.
And touch ac only gets worse as you get bigger.
Broken.
Note that this situation requires the gunslinger to be level 11, have a rifle or a +1 distance musket (rifles, by definition, are impossibly rare in the default golarion setting). It also requires you to be shelling out a bullet every round. There's misfire (1-2 on a musket) to deal with, as well.
It also requires a perfect situation where the dragon is sitting on the ground within range and not chewing on a party member.
And a confused dragon still has a chance to act normally and royally [pineapple] you up.
-The Beast
Yes.
The issue is that a level 7 player should be toast against anything with double it's CR. And I shouldn't be able to put a status effect on anything without them rolling ridiculously low on a save. It is specifically because it makes the levels irrelevant when you don't have saves attached.
And that isn't even getting into the disarm and trip stuff. I can trip or disarm anyone with a touch attack from 40 ft with a musket, regardless of CMD. 80 with a rifle.
Hell people thought orbs were overpowered, and that was a touch attack with no save or SR delivered from a 1/2 BAB class.
If you are going to do a combat maneuver, it should be against CMD. It is already a huge advantage to be able to do it from range. Similarly if you are putting a status effect on, it should have a will save (or fort if you want to make it stunned, which frankly makes more sense anyway...)
No where else are the mechanics like this, because you need a save that scales with level as part of how the system keeps things level appropriate.
Nobody is avoiding the issue. Enemies use tactics. A lv 1 wizard can kill a CR 20 dragon if he takes Arcane Strike and the dragon just stands there while he beats it with a magic stick. Does that make Arcane Strike overpowered? Or Attacking? No, because enemies have tactics. The fact of the matter is that Targeting requires a full round, which blows your action economy away, AND eats a grit point unless you spend a feat to make it not so. AND any enemy CR 3 higher than you is probably going to have countermeasures up. Hell, a level 3 wizard has countermeasures in that it can cast Blur or Mirror Image.
This is exactly the problem with theorycraft, and the reason devs prefer playtest data. There are MANY more variables to take into account than what you are looking at.
-The Beast
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"The fact is when you set up a status effect with no save, it breaks the game."
This simply isn't true. When you set up a status effect with no limitations, then it breaks the game. There are plenty of status effects without saves that are perfectly balanced. Why? Because they have OTHER limiting factors.
We are not avoiding the issue. You are avoiding rebutting against the other limitations that we brought forth.
INB4 grit is easy to gain, no save, yada yada yada.
EDIT: Apparently Spending grit, Hitting, and getting into vulnerable position to accomplish isn't limiting enough.
You are a full bab class with d10 and armor. You have the same armor and hit dice as a ranger. What "vulnerable" position? You are a tank, and you describe it like we are talking about an unarmored caster.
What other status effects can you put on someone that have no saves?
And as since grit is replenished on 1/20 of your attacks, or any kill so long as you are fighting things half your hit dice, how limited a resource is it?
Am I the only one who remembers the bad old days of unbalanced splat-books and worries we seem to be drifting in that direction here?
have you tested it, I doubt it so untill you test play a lvl 7 gunslinger vs a cr 14 dragon you have nothing to prove I find that theories mean crap if you have no hard evidence to prove your theory.
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Nobody is avoiding the issue. Enemies use tactics. A lv 1 wizard can kill a CR 20 dragon if he takes Arcane Strike and the dragon just stands there while he beats it with a magic stick. Does that make Arcane Strike overpowered? Or Attacking? No, because enemies have tactics. The fact of the matter is that Targeting requires a full round, which blows your action economy away, AND eats a grit point unless you spend a feat to make it not so. AND any enemy CR 3 higher than you is probably going to have countermeasures up. Hell, a level 3 wizard has countermeasures in that it can cast Blur or Mirror Image.
This is exactly the problem with theorycraft, and the reason devs prefer playtest data. There are MANY more variables to take into account than what you are looking at.
-The Beast
What countermeasure can you put up? Blur and mirror image are both rounds per level. It has no spell resistance, no save, touch attack.
That is the issue. What is the point of having high CMD if it is negated completely by a ranged touch attack?
This is almost as bad as when they put a full BAB caster in complete mage.
Power creep...
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have you tested it, I doubt it so untill you test play a lvl 7 gunslinger vs a cr 14 dragon you have nothing to prove I find that theories mean crap if you have no hard evidence to prove your theory.
Do you dispute that I can disarm anyone at 40ft with a ranged touch attack?
Or trip them.
Or have the effect of a 4th level arcane spell, albeit for one round rather than rounds per level.
Or cause a flying creature to fall out of the sky (damage only requires a fly check normally).
At 7th level.
And at 11th, it doesn't even cost me a grit point.
Nobody is avoiding the issue. Enemies use tactics. A lv 1 wizard can kill a CR 20 dragon if he takes Arcane Strike and the dragon just stands there while he beats it with a magic stick. Does that make Arcane Strike overpowered? Or Attacking? No, because enemies have tactics. The fact of the matter is that Targeting requires a full round, which blows your action economy away, AND eats a grit point unless you spend a feat to make it not so. AND any enemy CR 3 higher than you is probably going to have countermeasures up. Hell, a level 3 wizard has countermeasures in that it can cast Blur or Mirror Image.
This is exactly the problem with theorycraft, and the reason devs prefer playtest data. There are MANY more variables to take into account than what you are looking at.
-The Beast
What countermeasure can you put up? Blur and mirror image are both rounds per level. It has no spell resistance, no save, touch attack.
That is the issue. What is the point of having high CMD if it is negated completely by a ranged touch attack?
This is almost as bad as when they put a full BAB caster in complete mage.
Power creep...
HM counter measure, STAY OUT OF TOUCH RANGE.