So i'm a newbie to pen and paper rpgs, but i've decided on a few things that i dont really like. Nothing earthshattering, but just my opinions and i wanted to share.
In my opinion, sword and board = sword and bored. Its too stereotypical. Yeah as a fighter, once you get shield master, you are a bad mofo, but URGH! its frickin boring!
Second opinion, twf (non sword and bored), is WAY overrated. Visions of a lithe elf come to mind, a whirlwind of flashing steel, dual rapiers spinning blood and visceral in a majestic dance of blades. BS. I would be ok with a rapier and a dagger, axe and short sword, but generally i've seen 'dual' this and 'twin' that. Boring.
My favorite is a 2h fighter (or ranger, or pally or whatever), fyi. I also like, in theory the dual capabilities of the druid. So far my favorite toon is my dual threat ranger, lvl 11. Archer combat feats mixed with quick draw, crit focus and improved crit with a rapier, Guide archtype. My current is a lvl 2 pally, with a great sword.
I'd be interested in hearing what some of you guys think is 'overrated' or too stereotypical. I'd also like to hear some of your favorite builds.
BC
Bolding is mine.
I'm sorry, I don't want to troll, but I've had so many conversations lately about the impetus of PC and game console gamers into the pen and paper community. Just wanted you to be aware, that around these parts most people refer to them as PCs, which stands for player characters, not "toons." A toon, to me anyway, is a two-dimensional caricature, not a fully fleshed out alter ego, replete with historical background, flaws, and idiosyncratic tendencies.
That said, I've found that all that was once cliche, and, as you say, "boring," is now retro, and I find a lot of the players, at my table anyway, looking to those iconic archetypes as their bread and butter.
Too each his own though. Some of the favorites in my groups are the multi-weapon proficient barbarian, and the elven ranger scout, with an archery focus.
My favourite build is Game Master 20. You cannot go wrong.
AND: your build makes your character more or less efficient. Which is a good thing.
BUT has little or no role in making your character interesting.
What I think is too over done and cliched? Outrageous, different, "unique", off-the-wall characters. When I ran RotRl I had one guy make a high strength/con average everything else fighter, with a great sword (he eventually went bastard sword and shield). I honestly didn't know what to do with myself. I nearly hugged him.
In the area I'm at, there isn't a huge stable of players...so I'm only able to be so picky. Over the years I've seen psionic cats (as in a tabby cat), displace beast fighters, half beholder wizards, gnome barbarians, half witer wolf half dwarf rangers...and many others I'm not remembering. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of a few odd balls as well. One particular favorite of mine was a barbarian rogue (with some weird prestigue class options) that used a jambya out of some forgotten realms book as his only weapon (d3 damage, crits like a rapier).
I've never really been in a group with people who wanted anything close to normal...So to be a sword and board fighter is actually the mysterious exotic.
Welcome to the game, and the community!
That said, MendedWall12 is correct in that your word choice does illustrate a specific background you are coming from (MMOs and video games in general). Nothing wrong with that, I myself am guilty of having 3 level 85 Hordies and five more in the 70+ range. But I was also playing D&D long before Warcraft was a RTS, much less a MMO.
That said, I'll answer your question. Here is the list of various characters in the 3 Pathfinder Games I am running/playing in.
Pathfinder Savage Tide
Sahuagain Alchemist, mutagen specialized.
Storm Giant, shield and short sword gladiator style.
Dracotaur Fighter, rolls with an oversized harpoon.
Elf ranger, bow specialized but dice rolls make her a nightmare with a rapier.
Pathfinder Rise of the Runelords
Human Druid, storm focused.
Human Monk, flurry monster.
Human Inquisitor, pretending to be an inquisitor of a different church.
Half-elf Sorceror, fey bloodline.
The Adventures of the Inept
Human barbarian, amazon concept, currently using a greatsword made from slicer beetle mandibles.
Human fighter, mobile fighter variant, specialized in unarmed strike.
Drow Bard, court bard variant, uses heavy shield and whip.
So i'm a newbie to pen and paper rpgs, but i've decided on a few things that i dont really like. Nothing earthshattering, but just my opinions and i wanted to share.
In my opinion, sword and board = sword and bored. Its too stereotypical. Yeah as a fighter, once you get shield master, you are a bad mofo, but URGH! its frickin boring!
I would probably agree with this. The shield/two weapon fighting feat tree is huge, and by the time you've picked them all up, you dont have much room for anything else. So you dont have some of the more fun tricks a fighter who needs less feats to do his thing might have. So yea, it can get old/boring pretty fast.
Second opinion, twf (non sword and bored), is WAY overrated. Visions of a lithe elf come to mind, a whirlwind of flashing steel, dual rapiers spinning blood and visceral in a majestic dance of blades. BS. I would be ok with a rapier and a dagger, axe and short sword, but generally i've seen 'dual' this and 'twin' that. Boring.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that you like the idea of a large weapon and a small weapon but not two of the same? The reason two of the same weapon is more prevalent is for efficiency of feats. Weapon focus, weapon spec, improved critical, weapon training, etc, these all apply to only a single weapon (or in weapon training's case a weapon group). Using 2 different weapons reduces your overall efficiency in terms of the feats it costs you moving into a similar territory of the sword and board shield basher.
My favorite is a 2h fighter (or ranger, or pally or whatever), fyi. I also like, in theory the dual capabilities of the druid. So far my favorite toon is my dual threat ranger, lvl 11. Archer combat feats mixed with quick draw, crit focus and improved crit with a rapier, Guide archtype. My current is a lvl 2 pally, with a great sword.
No arguments from me, I prefer 2handed characters. I think they are the most effective and the most fun. They are also the least feat intensive, leaving more room for combat manuever feats or other tricks to keep things interesting and fresh in combat.
Also, like was said above, most people will get ready to flame at the word toon. I would recommend using PC or character instead around these parts. Even build is going to get less backlash then 'toon'.
I'd be interested in hearing what some of you guys think is 'overrated' or too stereotypical. I'd also like to hear some of your favorite builds.
BC
Personally I am partial to casters myself. My favorite so far is a Sorceror/Dragon Disciple with a focus on combat. He could arm wrestle giants and especially when buffed lay down all sorts of hurt. Was a fun character mechanically, and in terms of his personality. A nothing like a little red dragon blood and some draconic features to add some interesting quirks to a character.
Sword and Board and THF were dominant in 1e because Sword and Board was generally the only reliable way to get really low ACs (most +AC items not armor and shield went to the casters and rogues in our games) and THF was the best at doing damage.
Enter Driz'zt and now everyone wanted to be dual-wielding scimitars and for the most part 2e provided significant incentives for dual-wielding builds.
3.x shifted the balance yet again so that THF was clearly the best fighting style mechanically. It's pretty much hit something with bit killstick over and over again.
PF has tried to balance the fighting styles once again. The general increase in feat makes TWF more reasonable but the high dexterity pre-requisite, the big feat chain, and the need to invest in Dex and Str (because weapon finesse inexplicably doesn't modify damage roles) makes it still moderately inferior to THF unless you have a big source of bonus damage or can spam high value crits. THF (Sword and Board) is nice but it's very very feat intensive and is slow to develop. THF still frees up the most build resources to shore up other defenses. It's basically going with with best defense is a good offense mentality.
APG brought this even further by providing archetypes that expand the list of options even more such as the phalanx fighter.
In general though as long as you are willing to compromise on optimization it's definitely possible to have a substandard build and still have a ton of fun in the game.
Well I picked up the word took from the Guy that got me into it. He's and oldschool player who I guess picked up some new school slang.
As far as the word 'build' what is the preferred vernacular? I view character as skills, role playing, the overall package, whereas build is pure statistical efficiency, Ala stats, items, feats etc.
And as far as the preference of rapier/dagger as opposed to two rapiers, I guess its the last vestiges of realism in my imagination. True dual wielding twin rapiers is nearly unheard of beyond d the realm of fantasy.
Hey! Thanks for the welcome!
Build is fine if you just mean the mechanical aspects of the game. IE race/class/feats etc. Concept is the flavor side of things, who the character is, why the character is that way, and what the character's manerisms, behavior, and history are.
As for duel rapiers, that too is rare in the pathfinder world. It actually requires a 3.5 feat (oversized two weapon fighting) to make it work, that to my knowledge hasn't been replecated in any direct pathfinder material. It is more common to see duel wielding matched weapon sets that are smaller(like short swords or hand axes) so they can be used effectively with two weapon fighting.
And again, welcome to the boards and to the game. Happy gaming!
The two-weapon fighter archtype allows you to lower the penalty for using 2 one-handed weapons down to the penalties for using a one handed weapon and a light weapon.
Could you explain what you mean by "boring" in this context?
Do you mean, "When I play S&B or TWF I get bored because my character has few interesting actions to choose between."
Or perhaps, "When I imagine a character holding a sword and shield, it looks boring to me. Something needs to spruce up that image."
Or maybe something else entirely?
Interesting characters are usualy interesting because of things that you would not be used from games with 'toons'...
As for the most fun and interesting fighting style I have ever played just on a pure visualy and fun to play in combat I'll have to say it was my lasher/dervish....pretty much a highly mobil whip fighter.
In my opinion, sword and board = sword and bored.
I couldn't stop laughing at your pun, bro!
Its too stereotypical.
Stereotypical! Definitely with you, man. Everything about the previous sentence's set-up was leading me to the conclusion that a fighter using a sword and a shield was a HUGE stereotype. I mean, how could you possibly vary them at all?!
Yeah as a fighter, once you get shield master, you are a bad mofo, but URGH! its frickin boring!
'nuff said, hombre.
Second opinion, twf (non sword and bored), is WAY overrated. Visions of a lithe elf come to mind, a whirlwind of flashing steel, dual rapiers spinning blood and visceral in a majestic dance of blades. BS.
Duuuuuuude, beautiful imagery! I watch Night Elf females dance too! Hawt.
I would be ok with a rapier and a dagger, axe and short sword, but generally i've seen 'dual' this and 'twin' that. Boring.
You're absolutely right! There is no way you could come up with any other variation or put your own character twist on it! All you get are the 3 talent trees, 6 different hair selections, and the beard option.
My favorite is a 2h fighter (or ranger, or pally or whatever)
Yeah, dude?! Lawl, what's up with those pallies? Crazy stuff...
I also like, in theory the dual capabilities of the druid.
Bro, cat AND bear form. FTW.
Dude, overall: cool story bro.
In my opinion, sword and board = sword and bored.I couldn't stop laughing at your pun, bro!
Its too stereotypical.Stereotypical! Definitely with you, man. Everything about the previous sentence's set-up was leading me to the conclusion that a fighter using a sword and a shield was a HUGE stereotype. I mean, how could you possibly vary them at all?!
Yeah as a fighter, once you get shield master, you are a bad mofo, but URGH! its frickin boring!'nuff said, hombre.
Second opinion, twf (non sword and bored), is WAY overrated. Visions of a lithe elf come to mind, a whirlwind of flashing steel, dual rapiers spinning blood and visceral in a majestic dance of blades. BS.Duuuuuuude, beautiful imagery! I watch Night Elf females dance too! Hawt.
I would be ok with a rapier and a dagger, axe and short sword, but generally i've seen 'dual' this and 'twin' that. Boring.You're absolutely right! There is no way you could come up with any other variation or put your own character twist on it! All you get are the 3 talent trees, 6 different hair selections, and the beard option.
My favorite is a 2h fighter (or ranger, or pally or whatever)Yeah, dude?! Lawl, what's up with those pallies? Crazy stuff...
I also like, in theory the dual capabilities of the druid.Bro, cat AND bear form. FTW.
Dude, overall: cool story bro.
I'm sensing your sarcasm.
Here's my advice:
Stick with it. Play for more than three decades. In that time, I guarantee you, your tastes will change, you will become curious about some things you think you hate now, and you will surprise yourself once in awhile by actually being happy to find out you were wrong about some things.
I like practically every reasonable build for something. At some time. But then, I have learned not to discriminate. I'm the GM.
There is so much self-righteousness flying around in here...
Glad you found your way to Pathfinder...it's a great game with enough options that you still have PLENTY to play even if somethings bore you. (Like Clerics bore me...even though it's irrational. I just find them meh.)
As for your original question:
I think that, while casters are awesome and amazing and probably the most powerful....they're still overrated. It takes a lot to be overrated when you're already the best, but full casters (I'm looking at you wizards) manage it.
Characters are only ever stereotypical if they're played like a stereotype. A dwarven sword (or hammer) and board fighter can be a stereotype only if he's played like EVERY OTHER typical dwarf frontline fighter. An effeminate dwarven frontline fighter who is overly concerned with how fabulous he looks while cleaving skulls...I certainly wouldn't call that a stereotype (at least not in the way that we're talking about!).
My favorites? I really love playing characters that mix arcane spellcasting with martial ability (though I don't play bards). It's exciting because they benefit hugely from pretty much every book that comes out...whether magic or combat based. Plus they're fun to tinker with to try and get the most out of them, as they are usually a lot less straightforward than most builds.
your opinion matters.
especially in regards to this question:
Are you having fun?
I don't care how you get there i hope the game is fun for you.
Been there, done that...albeit it was a paladin and not a fighter....An effeminate dwarven frontline fighter who is overly concerned with how fabulous he looks while cleaving skulls...I've GOT to find a way to use this!
LOL...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-
I was planning a LARP character like this, one of the seven deadly sins (pride, obviously).
I removed a post. Do not use profanity or vulgar speech. Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others.
Shield and spear, baby! That's the way to go! Preferably wearing a breastplate and a helmet with a big red horsehair plume.
-The Gneech
As far as I've seen on these boards, ungentle mocking and sarcasm are pretty much accepted, so long as it doesn't involve name calling (and even then people being called "morons" and such gets by a decent amount). Outright abuse tends to get removed, doubly so if there are naughty words in it.
Hopefully your children end up better for your enforcing against sarcastic mocking. Though you throwing around "see you next tuesday" makes me skeptical.
Well I picked up the word took from the Guy that got me into it. He's and oldschool player who I guess picked up some new school slang.
As far as the word 'build' what is the preferred vernacular? I view character as skills, role playing, the overall package, whereas build is pure statistical efficiency, Ala stats, items, feats etc.
And as far as the preference of rapier/dagger as opposed to two rapiers, I guess its the last vestiges of realism in my imagination. True dual wielding twin rapiers is nearly unheard of beyond d the realm of fantasy.
Hey! Thanks for the welcome!
You guys are making a big deal about him calling his character a toon? Really? Lighten the hell up. I've been gaming for 25 years, have done very little MMOing, and I call my characters toons, PCs, guys, whatever. Everyone knows what he's talking about. He's just sharing his opinions and absorbing feedback, not looking to be scolded for his wording, or mocked for said opinions.
I just want to say, I really appreciate the veracity of the thread title.
Opinionated and knows it. Rock on, O.P.
ugh, call them toons all you want. some of these posts are unbelievable.
GET OFF MY LAWN!
ugh, call them toons all you want. some of these posts are unbelievable.
That's the self-righteousness I referred to earlier...
Seriously though....bring on all the new players who came to pen n paper via video games of MMORPGs or Anime or ANYTHING. All it means is new blood, more money for the good people making the games I love, and, as a result, more great products for me to enjoy (hopefully also leading to more new players as well and continuing the cycle!)
Seriously though....bring on all the new players who came to pen n paper via video games of MMORPGs or Anime or ANYTHING. All it means is new blood, more money for the good people making the games I love, and, as a result, more great products for me to enjoy (hopefully also leading to more new players as well and continuing the cycle!)
+1.
They can call PCs "Poopz" if they want.
Don't drink and post, kids.
Seriously though....bring on all the new players who came to pen n paper via video games of MMORPGs or Anime or ANYTHING. All it means is new blood, more money for the good people making the games I love, and, as a result, more great products for me to enjoy (hopefully also leading to more new players as well and continuing the cycle!)+1.
They can call PCs "Poopz" if they want.
Don't drink and post, kids.
Sold! All PC's will be "Poopz" from here on out.
welcome.
here is a useful piece of information
when doubting yourself about what race you wish to play, remember that a young adult human is always a good choice.
i remember playing a very unusual grey elf sorceress who went by the Name Kira Moonsong. her specialty was offensive violation of the sound barrier. sonic damage, speed related buffs, a custom sound elemental bloodline with a limited version of the choker's quickness ability, and a bunch of sound related defenses. she was also aroused by thunderstorms and was a 76 year old elf who could pass off as a 12 year old child in a misinformed human society. her great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather steven was an epic level chaotic good paragon half sound elemental dragonwrought great wyrm kobold sorcerer with manipulate form and amazing knowledge of religion. most of the family called him Uncle Steve. Kira was proud of being descended from this overpowered munchkinized dream and she frequently flaunted her amazing heritage by means of teasing lecherous old male lolicons but never entering thier bedchambers, after sufficiently arousing them, she would snatch thier wallets for herself. the richer the better. she also had an uncanny knack for accidentally disentigrating nobles by the sheer speed of her slap, and she could do this all day long for tons of dice of sonic damage without eating up spell slots. she also had manifested special sonic evocations most wouldn't understand. all of which were based off of existing evocation or conjuration spells. and these sonic spells were considered to be of both schools. she also typically wore a loose wrap on tunic with a miniskirt and thighhighs and was pale skinned with shoulder length black hair and green eyes that featured ice blue pupils. why would she ever wear any other undergarment when she liked the look of bloomers several times better.
|
welcome.
here is a useful piece of information
when doubting yourself about what race you wish to play, remember that a young adult human is always a good choice.
i remember playing a very unusual grey elf sorceress who went by the Name Kira Moonsong. her specialty was offensive violation of the sound barrier. sonic damage, speed related buffs, a custom sound elemental bloodline with a limited version of the choker's quickness ability, and a bunch of sound related defenses. she was also aroused by thunderstorms and was a 76 year old elf who could pass off as a 12 year old child in a misinformed human society. her great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather steven was an epic level chaotic good paragon half sound elemental dragonwrought great wyrm kobold sorcerer with manipulate form and amazing knowledge of religion. most of the family called him Uncle Steve. Kira was proud of being descended from this overpowered munchkinized dream and she frequently flaunted her amazing heritage by means of teasing lecherous old male lolicons but never entering thier bedchambers, after sufficiently arousing them, she would snatch thier wallets for herself. the richer the better. she also had an uncanny knack for accidentally disentigrating nobles by the sheer speed of her slap, and she could do this all day long for tons of dice of sonic damage without eating up spell slots. she also had manifested special sonic evocations most wouldn't understand. all of which were based off of existing evocation or conjuration spells. and these sonic spells were considered to be of both schools. she also typically wore a loose wrap on tunic with a miniskirt and thighhighs and was pale skinned with shoulder length black hair and green eyes that featured ice blue pupils. why would she ever wear any other undergarment when she liked the look of bloomers several times better.
Why the hell are you posts always so damn creepy?
|
Why the hell are you posts always so damn creepy?welcome.
here is a useful piece of information
when doubting yourself about what race you wish to play, remember that a young adult human is always a good choice.
i remember playing a very unusual grey elf sorceress who went by the Name Kira Moonsong. her specialty was offensive violation of the sound barrier. sonic damage, speed related buffs, a custom sound elemental bloodline with a limited version of the choker's quickness ability, and a bunch of sound related defenses. she was also aroused by thunderstorms and was a 76 year old elf who could pass off as a 12 year old child in a misinformed human society. her great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather steven was an epic level chaotic good paragon half sound elemental dragonwrought great wyrm kobold sorcerer with manipulate form and amazing knowledge of religion. most of the family called him Uncle Steve. Kira was proud of being descended from this overpowered munchkinized dream and she frequently flaunted her amazing heritage by means of teasing lecherous old male lolicons but never entering thier bedchambers, after sufficiently arousing them, she would snatch thier wallets for herself. the richer the better. she also had an uncanny knack for accidentally disentigrating nobles by the sheer speed of her slap, and she could do this all day long for tons of dice of sonic damage without eating up spell slots. she also had manifested special sonic evocations most wouldn't understand. all of which were based off of existing evocation or conjuration spells. and these sonic spells were considered to be of both schools. she also typically wore a loose wrap on tunic with a miniskirt and thighhighs and was pale skinned with shoulder length black hair and green eyes that featured ice blue pupils. why would she ever wear any other undergarment when she liked the look of bloomers several times better.
+1
|
Welcome to pen-&-paper gaming.
.
.
Do you mean, "When I play S&B or TWF I get bored because my character has few interesting actions to choose between."
Or perhaps, "When I imagine a character holding a sword and shield, it looks boring to me. Something needs to spruce up that image."
I was kinda thinking the OP was describing the second, the PC description is "boring."
For me, maybe because I've been mostly a DM for 25 years, I seem to see ALL of the PC builds as "descriptively boring." I think the only PCs that aren't banal are the ones with developed personalities and character backgrounds.
Moreover, and I know lots of gamers feel differently, I think the "unusual" Race choices and "odd" Race / Class combos make for the most "descriptively" boring PCs. It's as if a Player that builds a Half-Treant Rogue with an Air Elemental-Touched Template, for example, can't come up with a "real"(?) personality or character background, so just comes up with a cool, crazy sounding PC Race / Class combo and completely ignores character development.
I'd rather a Player describe his human fighter with all kinds of Alignment issues and personality quirks than one who describes his Half-Fiend Boggard wielding a spiked chain.
But that's me.
Human is THE BEST "descriptive" choice for Race EVER. It's the one that doesn't have any stereotype or cliche.
.
.
.
Oh yeah, and Bruunwald is absolutely right, after you've been playing for a long time, your tastes will change.
here is a useful piece of information
when doubting yourself about what race you wish to play, remember that a young adult human is always a good choice.
Why the hell are you posts always so damn creepy?
I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I'm also trying to figure out how that advice is pertinent to the OP's question. :-\
To the OP: Welcome to the boards. Depending on feat selections, I can definitely see how some builds might end up boring. I myself rarely play characters with a straight-up frontal-assault build. Generally I like to ensure that they have a nice selection of modal capabilities to suit the situation (power attack, combat expertise, TWF, etc.), or abilities that allow for non-damage-based options that can have other interesting effects (i.e. the improved combat maneuver feats).
In terms of my 'favorite' builds... Can't really say that I have one. If you were to right now look thru the PCs in my user profile, most of them are pretty distinct from one another. Really the only common thread is that they are predominantly female elves and most of them are adept at both stealth and social encounters (my wizardess, Alexis is the face/diplomat for the group she is part of).
Now keep in mind, I'm pretty much PbP-only at this point and the games I'm in have as much (or more) focus on politics and diplomacy as they do combat. In the games I run myself, combats also tend to get pretty crazy with fights on plain level ground without any sort of cover or other battlefield factors being the exception rather than the norm. YMMV.
Hope this is a satisfactory answer to your inquiry. FWIW, it's nice to see new blood coming from the MMO side of things instead of the opposite. :)
Grognard, here, can someone tell me what a "toon" is.
While I don't play MMOs, I have enough friends who do that I'm familiar with some of the vernacular. ;) From my understanding, a "toon" is your Player Character in an MMO like World of Warcraft. I think the reason for them being called that is because of 'cartoon-like' artistic style used in WoW. i.e. Looking at your character one could conceivably see them as a cartoon character under your control. Obviously it's more of a Record of Lodoss Wars type cartoon character than the old Warner Brothers type, but there you go.
Frequently, I find it handy to check UrbanDictionary.com for slang or other terms that I don't understand. FWIW, the entries for 'toon' on UD.com seem to note that even among MMO players there is a certain dim view on refering to your character as a "toon". i.e. I'd hesitate to say that it's a case of elitism on the part of board members here to be critical of the term when it seems that it is criticized even in the circles where the term originated.
Either way, I suppose it's immaterial to topic at hand once everyone's on the same page as to what we're talking about.
Grognard, here, can someone tell me what a "toon" is.A cartoon? I dunno.
Oh, and another +1 on Shuriken Nekogami being creepy.
Oh stop it, you guys. She's(?) not creepy.
She just has interesting characters...
Pretty sure Shuriken has stated he is male.
I remember reading that somewhere, too.