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mourge40k wrote:
Personally, I find Curse of the Crimson Throne to be a really solid and simple AP to run, though the fact that it's 3.5 does complicate things somewhat. Sadly, I don't have as much experience as I'd like with other AP's, and the ones I do know (Kingmaker and Carrion Crown) aren't quite as new-GM friendly.

I'm doing my second run-through of CotCT right now, with him as a player for the second time. So it's a no-go. But I do love it as an AP.

EDIT: An everyone knows that GMing is better when nekkid.


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What about Jade Regent.

It's okay, I'll let myself out. :-D


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Beautiful out today.

Keep hydrated and cool east coast FaWtL Folks!


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On the catwalk, the catwalk is where I'll send Scooby to look for clues
On the catwalk, the catwalk is where he'll go for a Scooby snack.

Grand Lodge

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Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Today wrote:
The weekend went by too fast.

Mine went by at about just the right speed. Got to finish rewatching Unlimited Blade Works and have some good games before putting my nose to the grind today.


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The weekend before was like that for us, it's great when that happens. :-)


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I really like horizontal stripes, or hoops, on clothing.

I own horizontally striped socks, boxer shorts, t-shirts (long and short sleeved) and shirts. What I do not presently have is horizontally striped trousers, but when I do, I shall be able to achieve my Life's Ambition and wander about looking like a caterpillar, probably shortly before getting beaten up for dressing like a t**t.


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Limeylongears wrote:

I really like horizontal stripes, or hoops, on clothing.

I own horizontally striped socks, boxer shorts, t-shirts (long and short sleeved) and shirts. What I do not presently have is horizontally striped trousers, but when I do, I shall be able to achieve my Life's Ambition and wander about looking like a caterpillar, probably shortly before getting beaten up for dressing like a t**t.

If that were a reason for getting beaten up, I'd be getting a beating every day.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Mostly for Captain Yesterday, but everyone else feel free to chime in (I'm looking at you, TL!):

Impus Minor wants to start running an AP. He ran We Be Goblins quite competently, so I think he could do an "easy" one with minimal help.

So... which AP is the "easiest" to run as a GM?

This is a good, deserving question. I would have said CotCT as my forst answer, as well.

That being out, and I know SS is ou for similar reasons, I'd b more strapped for ideas.

Unfortunately, RotR gets really "M" rated really quickly (and not in a "fun" way), in a couple of parts, and you can't censor that, you know, from the GM.

My guesses (but I can't comment for sure) would be the choo-choo Second Darkness, or the crawleriffic Mummy's Mask or Shattered Star.

If you're into possibly allowing 3.5 stuff, perhaps letting him run something like Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave and then moving on to Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land and Anauroch: Empire of Shade if they go well. Each of them is ~2 parts of an AP. It thus keeps it compartmentalized, allowing for an earlier (but still satisfactory) "end" point, if desired.

I have a few more thoughts, but I'll have to keep them, for now. Posting on the run.


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Thanks for the seconds on Mummy's Mask and Shattered Star. I'm hoping to run Shattered Star for my "core" group as soon as I finish off Jade Regent, so it looks like he'll be running Mummy's Mask for us.

I'll see how he feels about that one...


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If he doesn't like that, Iron Gods, surprisingly easy. :-)


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None of us are fans of mixing tech with fantasy, so I think Iron Gods is going to be a dust-collector. I've heard good things about it, but not to my groups' tastes.


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I thought I wasn't a fan either, turns out I was. :-)

But really, looking back, it shouldn't have been a surprise.

No big deal, at least you aren't insulting about it, it really rubs some people really raw. :-D


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Also Mummy's Mask is really good and on my list of hoping to run or play. :-)

He can't really go wrong there. :-)


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I've realized something from playing The Witcher 3 - Geralt is an excellent model of how the Fighter class should look in my modernish guns everywhere setting. My setting focuses on government employed monster and witch hunters, and presumes that the government doesn't really hire people who don't know something about magic and monsters. So the default Fighter doesn't really fit well. What does is a Fighter that focuses on both rigid academic training and rigid martial training, with some limited magic for defense (no, players don't get the Witcher Mind Trick sign). The setting uses alchemical enhancement to replace the magic item economy, so mutagens are already represented outside the class.

What this means is that the Fighter excels at identifying strengths and weaknesses, which makes them particularly good at bypassing DR. This is important, because magic in and of itself will not bypass damage reduction, only very specific materials, damage types, or methods of attack will. Fighters can also identify the habits of most monsters. They also deliver more and harsher critical hits than other classes.

What magic a Fighter has isn't really spellcasting, and it's very defensive. Stuff like the ability to gain saving throws against spells that wouldn't typically allow them, gain temporary DR or elemental resistances, create temporary shields that knock back enemies, and the like. Finally, they can temporarily gain magical senses, have average skill points and high knowledge points (knowledge is so important to PCs in my setting that it has been broken off from skills into a separate progression, so that all PCs have points in multiple knowledges without impeding aquisition of skills), and have 3 good saves because they are in fact trained to resist mental attacks, as well as to both dodge and withstand physical attacks.

Basically, the Fighter's whole schtick is being specifically trained to fight magic, while other full BAB classes are much more trained in using magic offensively.


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Into work I go.


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Am I not lying convincingly enough anymore? It seems people aren't buying my first line of crap, and then I gotta come up with a second line of crap, and what if it contradicts my first line of crap...

At least people still buy the one about the twice weekly visits from the Lego fairy. :-)


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Oh, wands. I imagine wands are carried alongside revolvers, but why? I don't allow using them to store spells , so what do they do? Maybe they make it easier to cast cones, rays, and "launch something at this specific square" spells, so that they cost one less spell point and increase casting time for metamagic one step less. You could cast these spells without a wand, but why would you? Of course, this really only works in a setting where the great majority of PCs are spellcasters, and those who aren't have some sort of special magical defenses against spells.

That's actually an important thing about my setting right there - it really is a setting about magicians, even with the martial characters. That's why I use Pathfinder - Pathfinder is a system that caters almost totally to magic users, and my setting is specifically about magic users.


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NobodysHome wrote:

Thanks for the seconds on Mummy's Mask and Shattered Star. I'm hoping to run Shattered Star for my "core" group as soon as I finish off Jade Regent, so it looks like he'll be running Mummy's Mask for us.

I'll see how he feels about that one...

No problem!

I'm not honestly strong on those recommendations - I can't promise that it's a good idea, only that it kind of seems like it might be (as I am only just now prepping MM to run it, myself, and it's for a solo game for my wife, so, you know, my mileage will definitely vary).

That said...

APs!

So, I quickly scanned Shattered Star and Mummy's Mask, and one thing that was important to note is that both start the final adventure at 15th level.

This is actually roughly equal to Giant Slayer, in terms of late-level abilities, and GS is notable in that it's a pretty straight-forward (as I understand it) AP - the point is to go forth and beat the bad guy. I have not prepped for this game, however, so I can't give it a solid recommendation beyond the barest comparison. Bear in mind, however, that I'm pretty close to that much info with MM, as well, and, though I started to prep SS, it has been delayed indefinitely until we can actually play RotR and CotCT, so that's been a while back, now.

Regardless, comparing SS and MM and GS to Council of Thieves, you'll note that CoT starts the final adventure with 11th level characters. That's a full four levels lower than any of those three adventurers, and, as a GM, that's enormous. Absolutely phenomenally massive, in terms of power-gap. That's the difference between GMs running games with half the team already running on infinite wishes, and GMs running a game with one of them maybe starting to look into the possibility, as soon as they can afford it, later.

That said, I've run CoT, and it has a few issues.
- The first is pacing - it's not the most obviously-paced AP. It has bumps and jolts and kind of expects the players and GMs alike to intuit how fast it's supposed to go for their group (which it expects to vary), but doesn't really do anything to accommodate this. This is kind of an easy fix, though - if I. Major decides that there is a flexi-timeline ("if the heroes don't act, in 1-3 <time period>, than <event by non-PCs> will happen") it's pretty easily handled. Without going into specifics, in the same way the PCs are supposed to know about the research points in S'sS that you're running for them, he can let them know that there is a timeline, and otherwise feel things out with a tad of metagame knowledge for pacing.
- The second is a weird blend of order presented, sense of scale, strength of the enemy, and sudden switch in tone. In the end, this mess isn't that big a deal, either, if the kids he's running for don't have a genuine sense of scale, yet, and the PCs are expecting that they'll be supposed to reveal themselves at some point.
- - The tone "problem" - such as it is - is that the PCs are expected to be acting in secret, and then, at some unidentified point, they're just kind of known as heroes around the city. This means that either they're terrible at hiding their identities, the police dottari and hellknights are terrible at their jobs (which is proven to be sort of kind of untrue at the beginning of the AP and sort of kind of totally true at the later stages) and thus to be laughed at (not the thing you want for the end), or some sort of weird shenanigans are going on.
- - > > If the PCs are bad at their jobs, then you've got the in-story problem of, "Why aren't they arrested?" This is easily answered, but the short version is that, in honesty, by the start of the third AP, the "hidden presence" aspect of their group is no longer strictly necessary (so long as their home base remains a quasi-secret). In fact, the second AP can be the point at which they kind of allow the secret aspect to drop, a bit. There's a minor issue, here, of villain motivation for not smiting them, but that's really not that big a deal, either, if the PCs get that the villains are dealing with their own things.
- - > > For the Dottari and Hell Knights to be fundamentally bad at their jobs is also problematic. The best way I've come up with to present it, is that they're overburdened. Crime is a huge thing in Westcrown, and it's just getting worse, across the board. They all want the prestige, but they're daggum tired, and they've got to let things slip through the cracks, and the PCs (for now) are doing more good than harm, as far as they can see. This makes them respectable, and important later.
- - For the scale and order issues, it's basically that the largest possible bad guy actually kind of appears mid-AP. After him, if the kids have a genuine sense of the scale of monsters, everything else can be just kind of... disappointing (despite the fact that it is, of course, balanced for that level, at the time). That said, again, if the kids aren't immersed in D&Disms (or PFisms) it's probably not that big a deal. Similarly, there are lots of ways of handling the situation to present it as terrifying. I. Major's just going to have to ramp up the horror heading up to it, and pointing out that if the PCs don't act now, it's going to be so much worse than anything any of the other bad guys could come up with, and the reasons they have a chance at all are present within the AP itself - it makes sense in-context. After that's dealt with, you still have several terrifyingly bad things coming your way that need to be dealt with, it's just that everyone won't automatically <censored for terrible things, and spoilers>... yet. Once this event is finished, allowing the PCs to come fully out of the shadows and be B.D.H.'s (as Firefly would put it - censored, that's Big Darn Heroes). This begins their upward push to popularity. It should also probably pointed out, at the beginning of number five, that the future the PCs saw in number four could still well happen to the city... if event entry number six is not completed. The differences is that it will happen later (after the citizens die) instead of the cause of their death - and it will carry on to future generations. Emphasizing this will work well, I think, to convince most would-be heroes to do what needs to be done.
... So the solutions are inherent within the problems.
- The AP is really difficult to achieve the "good" ending. I added a few points in that link, and this points out all fame points possible throughout the AP. The "additional heroics" is the important part.

Those problems (explained in detail above) aside, it still might be worth it for a new GM to run lower level final AP game. PF is much denser than it's predecessor, as every class has special abilities, and having favored class bonuses is a major thing a GM needs to consider.

All of that said, there are two things that you may wish to consider: Kingmaker and Skull and Shackles. Both of them require a bit of work, as they're sand-boxes, but if iMajor wanted to work with you as a GM, I think either could function pretty well.

That said, upon thinking about it more, I'm going to, again, recommend the three adventures I mentioned above.

... those or, instead, Eberron. "But, I don't want to play in Eberron!" I hear you say. "I want to play in Golarion!" That's fine, my friend.

Step One: fluff Sharn as Quantium, Cyre as the Mana Wastes, Karrnath as Geb, and Xen'dric as Jalmeray. With those four substitutions, you've actually got a method of playing every single adventure listed there. The adventures start from level 1 (in the Eberron Campaign Setting) and go straight through level 10 (via Eyes of the Lich Queen). While there is a bit of "techno-like" elements around (such as an elemental vehicle - basically a loud wheel-less carriage; and airships; artificer craftsman; and a lightning rail - akin to a train-like device on powerful electrical stones) all of these are strictly magical (not really "tech" at all), and extremely likely to come from places like Nex, Alkenstar, and Geb in-Pathfinder, as-written. Arazni can be an easy stand-in for Vol, and you've pretty much go the whole thing converted. The only thing you'd need to do is replace mention of "Dragonmarks" with "Mercantile Consortium" and/or some sort of specific sorcerer bloodlines (sort of like this), and you're good to go! In fact, I'd really recommend this, honestly. These adventures feel epic, but aren't that high, level-wise. They make the characters work for their stuff, and allow the GM to explore un-examined parts of Golarion, while still running solid adventures - conversion is so minimal, you just have different names and directions, and that's pretty much it. Plus, you've lots of good "end" points - you never have to feel trapped into a long cycle of adventures that you fail to finish, because, if interest wanes (or GM burnout ensues), you'll have a pretty handy stopping point, "Soon" - about as soon as this adventure ends. Plus, you've got a recurring villain throughout, tying the whole thing together - the cult of the Blood of Vol Arazni.

I might have more, later, but that's what I've got for now. Took a lot of time to track all that nonsense down and put it together.

Hope that helps!


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Nowadays, if you wanna sell boardgames you gotta make them sound risque.

Telestrations, After Dark
Cranium, After Dark
Bop It Party
Taboo.

Still waiting on Nude Uno...

Dark Archive

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Give Dick Grayson my regards.


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It begins...


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Tacticslion wrote:
Wall-o-text

I'm afraid Council of Thieves was an epic catastrophe for us. The family wanted to play in an "evil" campaign, so I let them all be evil, and the forums suggested I run Council of Thieves.

Leading to the immediate question in Book 1: "Why on Golarion am I helping these people?!?!?!"

It left a sour enough taste in our mouths we haven't returned to it.

Mummy's Mask sounds like a blast, and we're trying a really odd assortment of misfits at the start. I do worry that Red's Journal is going to become "someone else's Journal" rather rapidly, as we're lacking in both martial classes and divine casters, but hey, I can always play a hilarious old cleric of Abadar...


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I win!!! Who hoo!!!!

sprays FaWtL with non alcoholic champagne.


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The important thing, is to not let it go to my head.


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And in case you're wondering, yes. Yes, she WILL have a wolf animal companion that she will ride.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Wall-o-text
NobodysHome wrote:

I'm afraid Council of Thieves was an epic catastrophe for us. The family wanted to play in an "evil" campaign, so I let them all be evil, and the forums suggested I run Council of Thieves.

Leading to the immediate question in Book 1: "Why on Golarion am I helping these people?!?!?!"

It left a sour enough taste in our mouths we haven't returned to it.

That's sad. It's a flawed AP, but really good in many ways, too.

There are definite ways it can work for evil, but it needs to be handled carefully and the CoW you're supposed to start with need to be completely changed for it to work at all.

(That said, now you've got Hell's Vengeance, if you want that sort of thing... :D)

NobodysHome wrote:
Mummy's Mask sounds like a blast, and we're trying a really odd assortment of misfits at the start. I do worry that Red's Journal is going to become "someone else's Journal" rather rapidly, as we're lacking in both martial classes and divine casters, but hey, I can always play a hilarious old cleric of Abadar...

Awesome! Good luck!

(I recommend becoming a master summoner and cheese-spamming the heck out of it. You'll survive longer that way, and you're summoned minions can just add ton of Aid Another's to everyone else's attempt at everything.)

NobodysHome wrote:
And in case you're wondering, yes. Yes, she WILL have a wolf animal companion that she will ride.

... but does she have a ticket.

Ha! Ha! Hhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa...!

That's regulated Mummy's Mask "humor"* and song-reference in one! It's "funny"* because you start off so regulated in Mummy's Mask and it's a weak reference to a song!

* No. I'm pretty sure it's not, really. I liked it, though.


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Well, I finally got my (new) Skull and Shackles character done, I was originally going to go with a Barbarian, because I've never been one, but the General told me that was "boring"

I ended up with:

Monkey Bone (named for the Arucaria (sp?) Tree, or "Monkey Bone" tree) a druid born and raised in the Lirgen ruins of the Sodden Lands, he has the astrological charts and symbols he found tattooed all over.


captain yesterday wrote:
Monkey Bone (named for the Arucaria (sp?) Tree, or "Monkey Bone" tree)

And here I thought it was the Brandon Frasier film.


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Oh, one of the players from my GURPS group announced a new Pathfinder campaign. No idea what I'll play as though.


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Icyshadow wrote:
Oh, one of the players from my GURPS group announced a new Pathfinder campaign. No idea what I'll play as though.

Human Fighter named Gen Eric.


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Tacticslion wrote:
(I recommend becoming a master summoner and cheese-spamming the heck out of it. You'll survive longer that way, and you're summoned minions can just add ton of Aid Another's to everyone else's attempt at everything.)

I, uh... I just made this possible.

>.>

I APOLOGIZE FOR NOTHING.


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You're truly a silly man. :-)

Don't change... unless you want to, or are secretly replaced by aliens, in which case, a friendly heads up would be greatly appreciated. :-)


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I apologized for nothing, once.

Really made people wonder what I wasn't apologizing for.


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I think I'll go with a Bard.


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I think I'm adding Jones to my name, Monkey Bone Jones.


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Tacticslion wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Monkey Bone (named for the Arucaria (sp?) Tree, or "Monkey Bone" tree)
And here I thought it was the Brandon Frasier film.

It's actually the coolest looking tree ever! Might even commandeer the Mac so I can link to a picture.


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Rosita the Riveter wrote:

Oh, wands. I imagine wands are carried alongside revolvers, but why? I don't allow using them to store spells , so what do they do? Maybe they make it easier to cast cones, rays, and "launch something at this specific square" spells, so that they cost one less spell point and increase casting time for metamagic one step less. You could cast these spells without a wand, but why would you? Of course, this really only works in a setting where the great majority of PCs are spellcasters, and those who aren't have some sort of special magical defenses against spells.

That's actually an important thing about my setting right there - it really is a setting about magicians, even with the martial characters. That's why I use Pathfinder - Pathfinder is a system that caters almost totally to magic users, and my setting is specifically about magic users.

wands are common in my campaign setting, but they are known to be weaker versions of the rods and staves used by the long lost gnomes during the Divine War that took place millenia ago. They still require a use magic device check to work unless other factors are in place(the dc is higher in my setting). Most prefer to use "Dwarven wands"- aka crossbows- as they are more direct to use (attack using touch AC, but they take longer to use)


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Tacticslion wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Monkey Bone (named for the Arucaria (sp?) Tree, or "Monkey Bone" tree)
And here I thought it was the Brandon Frasier film.

BRENDAN Frasier.

I know this for... reasons...


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I am tired today! Had to help unload a truck last night, and it got there late, then Tiny T-Rex got up super early, and now I have a lack of sleep headache and coffee can only do so much, which is a lot, but still.


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NobodysHome wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Monkey Bone (named for the Arucaria (sp?) Tree, or "Monkey Bone" tree)
And here I thought it was the Brandon Frasier film.

BRENDAN Frasier.

I know this for... reasons...

Are YOU Brendan Frasier...


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captain yesterday wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Monkey Bone (named for the Arucaria (sp?) Tree, or "Monkey Bone" tree)
And here I thought it was the Brandon Frasier film.

BRENDAN Frasier.

I know this for... reasons...

Are YOU Brendan Frasier...

Not quite handsome or dashing enough...


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Most of that is photshopped anyway.

Grand Lodge

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captain yesterday wrote:
I apologized for nothing, once.

My wife apologized after bumping into the vacuum cleaner.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
I apologized for nothing, once.
My wife apologized after bumping into the vacuum cleaner.

I would never apologize to a vacuum cleaner. After all, Nature abhors a Vacuum!

Grand Lodge

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I blame her half-Canadian template.


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NobodysHome wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Monkey Bone (named for the Arucaria (sp?) Tree, or "Monkey Bone" tree)
And here I thought it was the Brandon Frasier film.

BRENDAN Frasier.

I know this for... reasons...

Are YOU Brendan Frasier...
Not quite handsome or dashing enough...

More handsome and dashing than Brendan Frasier?!

Woah! Awesome!


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Chris Pratt?


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captain yesterday wrote:
Chris Pratt?

Man, I would've said Brad Pitt, but Chris Pratt... good call.


NobodysHome wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
Monkey Bone (named for the Arucaria (sp?) Tree, or "Monkey Bone" tree)
And here I thought it was the Brandon Frasier film.

BRENDAN Frasier.

I know this for... reasons...

Is it because your name is Doug and you hate that show*?

* Potential swear warning; I've not watched the video, but Mr. Walker likes his swears.

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