The reason many highest level dungeons have these kinds of things in place is to they may actually hinder anyone over lv9.
Instead of house-ruling in giant anti-teleportation fields, why not simply change scrying to be blocked by one inch of lead like so many other divinations? Still useful in many situations, such as when the opponent is travelling.
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Arguing about level 20 balance is like a kid growing up in Darfur and arguing that the U.S. has more nukes than Russia and therefore is more of a threat when your neighbors are being slaughtered by Muslims with medieval axes...Except for those of us that are actually playing in level 20 campaigns. Those do happen!
Your DM has your party's neighbors slaughtered by Muslims with axes? Well, that seems kind of racist to me...
Ahem... so I just gave a CR 1 Lizardfolk a Belt of Physical Perfection +6, A +5 Flaming Longsword, and a +5 Adamantine Breastplate!
You don't think that increases his CR?
Ahem... so I just gave a CR 1 Lizardfolk a Belt of Physical Perfection +6, A +5 Flaming Longsword, and a +5 Adamantine Breastplate!
You don't think that increases his CR?
A creature that's a CR1 encounter has a treasure of 260 gold pieces. So you could give him, say, a 1st level potion or some armor.
EDIT: Note that it should be distributed kind of like this:50 weapons, 130 armor, 40 consumables.
Ahem... so I just gave a CR 1 Lizardfolk a Belt of Physical Perfection +6, A +5 Flaming Longsword, and a +5 Adamantine Breastplate!
You don't think that increases his CR?
A creature that's a CR1 encounter has a treasure of 260 gold pieces. So you could give him, say, a few 1st level potions or some armor.
EDIT: Note that it should be distributed kind of like this:
50 weapons, 130 armor, 40 consumables.
Exactly. Now he has a chain shirt (150), a greatsword(50), some javelins (10 gp worth) and a potion of Enlarge Person (50). Potentially much more dangerous than a naked lizardfolk, but still CR1.
You mean scry&fry them, ending whatever threat they hold without having to do anything except teleport in and nova?
The reason many highest level dungeons have these kinds of things in place is to they may actually hinder anyone over lv9.
Again, matthias and I must be playing in some odd games, because most of the time we're not bffs with the bbeg and don't happen to be carrying around items that belong to him/her. That makes scrying quite difficult, not to mention that there's a half-dozen spells in the book that deal specifically with defeating methods of divination, screen being a favorite of mine. I'm not sure I've ever successfully scried on a bbeg in a game. Makes the teleport in option sorta lackluster.
Exactly. Now he has a chain shirt (150), a greatsword(50), some javelins (10 gp worth) and a potion of Enlarge Person (50). Potentially much more dangerous than a naked lizardfolk, but still CR1.
Well, to be honest, 40 gps of those should be non-combat gear. Make it a greatclub and scale mail instead.
To simplify things, when my critters are just carrying gold around for the people to kill them, I keep a coinstar machine outside every dungeon.
Greg
*sigh*
vip00: Step 2 in the monster creation is the monster when it is NAKED. Just like how a fighter is kinda wimpy if he has NO gear.
Scroll down and you find that the treasure index EXPLICITLY states that treasure = gear used as well as furniture and useless crap.
Cartigan: Amulet of NA provides an enchancement to NA, not provide an existing. Meaning it stacks with innate NA.
The CR increase ONLY comes into play when you give the monster PLAYER CHARACTER WEALTH. Multiple APs back me on this. *crosses fingers that a developer will pop in and point this out*
And as I added to my previous post, this is not a problem for a functional lv20 party. 2 rounds, 3 if they roll badly.
1. So your argument is indeed that a level 20 (CR 19) human fighter with 159,000 of gear (as per NPC Gear Table) and a 25 HD (ancient red - CR 19) dragon with 200,000 of gear are about the same difficulty? I'm just checking to make sure.
2. I'm not sure where you got the notion that the table is for naked monsters. Read closely if you're going to make claims ffs.
Using Table: Monster Statistics by CR, Table: Creature Statistics by Type, and Table: Statistics Summary, you can now determine many of the creature's other statistics.
When building a creature's Armor Class, start by adding armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to its Dexterity modifier. If a creature does not wear armor, give it a tougher hide to get it near its average ac. Remember that creatures with higher hit point totals might have a lower Armor Class, whereas creatures with fewer hit points might have a higher Armor Class. If a creature's Armor Class deviates from the average by more than 5 points, it might not be the right CR.
You may notice that it mentions EITHER giving it armor OR natural armor to bring up its ac score to the score listed in the table.
When determining a creature's attack bonuses, refer to the guidelines from Table: Monster Statistics by CR based on the creature's CR. If the bonus is too low, consider increasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or increasing the amount of Damage it deals to above the average. If the bonus is too high, consider decreasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or decrease the amount of damage it deals. If this value is significantly different, and the creature is intended to rely on melee or ranged attacks, consider adjusting the creature's CR.
Hey look, the discussion is still about giving it stats and weapons to bring its FINAL values in line with the table.
3. Can you give us a play by play of what your players do to handle this dragon? Maybe the rest of us are building our chracters WAY wrong.
1. So your argument is indeed that a level 20 (CR 19) human fighter with 159,000 of gear (as per NPC Gear Table) and a 25 HD (ancient red - CR 19) dragon with 200,000 of gear are about the same difficulty? I'm just checking to make sure.
Of course not. The CR system is buggy, to say the least. I'd rate a level 20 fighter at a CR of maybe 16-17.
Now, a level 20 wizard with his 159,000 of gear? Sure thang.A level 18 fighter and a level 18 wizard? Also, sure thang.
A lesson in Monster building:
Treasure does indead say to include what a creature is using as part of the treasure output.... with this stipulation:
Make sure to account for any weapons or armor that the creature is using, as determined by step 7.
Step 7 is all about balancing AC, Attack bonuss, and Saves according to CR... constantly saying that if you significantly change the bonuses from the tables too much, increase/decrease the CR accordingly.
When building a creature's Armor Class, start by adding armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to its Dexterity modifier. If a creature does not wear armor, give it a tougher hide to get it near its average ac. Remember that creatures with higher hit point totals might have a lower Armor Class, whereas creatures with fewer hit points might have a higher Armor Class. If a creature's Armor Class deviates from the average by more than 5 points, it might not be the right CR
When determining a creature's attack bonuses, refer to the guidelines from Table: Monster Statistics by CR based on the creature's CR. If the bonus is too low, consider increasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or increasing the amount of Damage it deals to above the average. If the bonus is too high, consider decreasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or decrease the amount of damage it deals. If this value is significantly different, and the creature is intended to rely on melee or ranged attacks, consider adjusting the creature's CR.
The table which they are referring to is here
Table: Monster Statistics by CR
Towards the top of the page.
Ok. You've taken the dragons AC and unbalanced it upwards extremely far. Sooo... looks like you should consider changing this CR.
I keep posting the same things just after Vip00 posts them. Go Vip00!!
He beat me to it but mine looks alot neater. :-)
1: Lv20 fighter with PC gear, which is closer to a million. +5 Mithril Heavy Fort Full Plate, +5 Vorpal Sword, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Tome of Str+5, Amulet+5, Ring+5, Ring of Evasion, Cloak+5, Shield+5, Those fighter must-have gloves from the APG, etc. Different from not having those things. He will still have +27 or so to hit, and do 1d3+20 damage or whatever, but hardly a match.
2: According to this list, dragons should not have spellcasting either. That alone can bump their AC, hit, damage and saves by 10 or so alone. Mage Armor, Barkskin (through Limited Wish, unless people are going to argue that he can't even use his mandatory gimped trash-pile for components even), Shield, Divine Power (again, limited wish), Mirror Image, Improved Invisibility etc etc. Not the same creature anymore.
3: Party of 4; A wizard, a cleric, a fighter and a ranger
Rd1:
- Dragon does his stuff as described.
- Cleric casts Quickened Blessing of Fervor and Miracle to ask that the dragon be clear for all to see. (Not overpowered in any way, I'd say)
- Wizard casts Disjunction and quickened Interposing Fist to destroy his spell and item defenses, and reduce his to-hit by 10.
- Fighter activates an "I CAN FLY" item and moves to full attack next round
- Ranger fires a metric poop-ton of dragon bane arrows and drops it to half HP, because it's AC is now merely 39 or so.
Rd2:
- Dragon realizes it has made a terrible mistake, wishes it had teleport, tears into fighter, but mostly misses, since his AC is 50+ and the dragon now hits like some eidolon.
- Wizard lays into it with some Save or You Suck. Like Mind Fog and Quickened Hold Monster.
- Cleric does the same, or heals fighter with reach spell if he actually got hurt.
- Fighter cuts it's HP down even further.
- Ranger finishes it off.
Rd3: GM fumes because he spent hours on the damned dragon.
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Of course you get treasure from the dragon... however, like Ice_Deep said... if you find a GARGANTUAN +6 Belt of Physical Perfection on a dragon... you are stretching the rules a little bit.
Secondly, even if you did add items to a dragon, you are increasing it's CR beyond 20.
Why would that increase it's CR? If the items added weren't appropriate to a CR 20 creature, then yeah. But CR 20 should support a fair amount of swag.
I generally don't play in very high level games. Our campaigns usually wrap up at about 15th to 17th level. But we've always fought enemies that used their magic items against us. They'd be idiots not to.
I think it would be a bit ridiculous if a dragon had ALL of it's wealth tied up in magic items it was wearing (and was otherwise penniless), but why wouldn't a creature with a genius intellect actually use the tools at it's disposal?
As a general rule, the smarter the enemy, the better their preparations...better buffs, gear designed to enhance the abilities they have, or to cover weaknesses. If you haven't been playing that way, then you haven't been providing an adequate challenge to your players.
Also, the link you provided actually supports the dragon wearing those items, as it says that magic items would magically adjust to the size of the wearer. While you might think it's ridiculous for a dragon to wear a magic belt that was clearly sized for a human, I think it's just as ridiculous for our conquering hero to think he can wear a belt that was clearly sized for a dragon. Both circumstances follow the rules, and both strain credibility equally.
@ Heymitch... alread coverred. See above post concerning Monster Creation.
A lesson in Monster building:
Treasure does indead say to include what a creature is using as part of the treasure output.... with this stipulation:
Make sure to account for any weapons or armor that the creature is using, as determined by step 7.
Step 7 is all about balancing AC, Attack bonuss, and Saves according to CR... constantly saying that if you significantly change the bonuses from the tables too much, increase/decrease the CR accordingly.
** spoiler omitted **
The table which they are referring to is here
Table: Monster Statistics by CR
Towards the top of the page.Ok. You've taken the dragons AC and unbalanced it upwards extremely far. Sooo... looks like you should consider changing this CR.
By that logic, you should write a very angry letter to all the Adventure Path authors that have ever written a final part, where bosses often have around 50, and never break 20.
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Even if you made the argument that it could somehow wear a Ring of Protection, an Amulet of Natural Armor won't be doing him any good.
Why wouldn't a dragon want an Amulet of Natural Armor? It provides an enhancement bonus to it's natural armor. It won't stack with Barkskin, but it'll stack with the dragon's own natural armor.
Thanks James....
You're wrong though. I'll look out for that. Why don't you show me a build that does 1000 DPR with the versatility of spells and about 400 hp because I can swap damage between me and my Eidolon.
If you can show me that.. then you are useful to me. Otherwise your comments aren't useful.
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I already put a link to the PFSRD which shows the rule concerning resizing items. Gargantuan items won't shrink to medium size when you touch them... items that are traded between "characters of varying size" can be adjusted!
Gargantuan items will shrink to medium size if they are magical clothing or jewelry...cloak, headband, belt, amulet, ring, etc... This isn't true for weapons and armor, though.
I'm not sure where you are reading that they won't.
Ok, so I have a Golden Ring of Protection +1....
Here... HOLD THIS Dragon!
Now I go sell it.
The sizes you are referring to aren't what was intended by the statments. They were referring to creatures more close in size. Otherwise, people would build houses out of helms by haveing Gold Dragons hold them and put them on the ground.
By that logic, you should write a very angry letter to all the Adventure Path authors that have ever written a final part, where bosses often have around 50, and never break 20.
** spoiler omitted **
Wait I'm confused now...
1. Why are you giving your NPCs gear as PCs... PCs are meant to be heroic and I've linked to the NPC gear table a few times now. Are you just choosing to ignore that and assign your own CRs?
2. You just said the "CR 20" dragon that you throw at your party is a typical encounter, not a boss. If it's a typical encounter, your party should be encountering 4 of them every single day. Does your wizard prepare nothing but disjunctions? And your cleric cashes out 25k in miracle components every encounter? (so a total spending of 100k per day?)
3. Disjunction allows each item in its radius a will save (using that of the wielder if better). So assuming your wizard is decently built, he should have about 40 int, making the save a DC 34 save... So, since your dragon has Will +28, I would expect him to disjoin 1 item on the dragon per casting on average. Doubt that AC is gonna be 39, even if the wizard gets lucky.
Agreed Vip00. There was no way for me to look for it (how they balanced Kingmaker Bosses), but as my post above concerning Monster Creation shows in the spoiler...
If you increase your monster in one area and decrease it in another then it ballances out.
@Dragonborn
I believe that the rule you keep stating was meant for creatures more within certain size ranges with each other.
Also, The OVERWHELMING majority of pictures of dragons don't have them with ANY gear or items on them. Search Google Images Dragon.
However, I agree that a DM could do it... that's not the point. The Point is that it will increase a Monster's CR by doing so. *See Monster creation post about 5 up from here.
By that logic, you should write a very angry letter to all the Adventure Path authors that have ever written a final part, where bosses often have around 50, and never break 20.
** spoiler omitted **
Wait I'm confused now...
You just said the "CR 20" dragon that you throw at your party is a typical encounter, not a boss. Yet it has more hit points, AC, higher attack and damage etc etc than the BOSS OF A WHOLE CAMPAIGN that you referred me to. The boss wins on better spellcasting than the dragon (marginally). If it's a typical encounter, your party should be encountering 4 of them every single day. Does your wizard prepare nothing but disjunctions? And your cleric cashes out 25k in miracle components every encounter? (so a total sending of 100k per day?)
** spoiler omitted **
The dragon I churned out was an edited copy-pasta from the bestiary for a lv20 party.
Kingmaker part 6's boss is for a lv17 party, mine will likely be 16, since they are more players. My dragon CAN be used as a boss for that level, I guess, but then I would make it a lot more interesting, and craft a proper story behind it.
Miracle only costs tons of money if it does something sick. Allowing someone to see a creature for 3 rounds is not. It is one of the few spells that allow for some creativity. Might require a few slots, but that's OK. Clerics won't want anything other than Mass Heal and Miracle at lv9 anyways.
The wizard scribes scrolls with disjunction. It is one of those spells where DC doesn't matter all that much. It is one of the best spells on the list, so yeah, every wizard I make will go for it.
Edit: Ah, slight oversight. Intention was to kill it's buffs first and foremost. Items will likely remain, apparently, since the dragon has Improved Iron Will. So, barely 50 then. Still should not be a problem for a ranger or a fighter (BAB+20, Str or Dex +12, Weapon+7, Skill/Favored Enemy+7, Buffs+2 =+48 to hit). Might take a little longer then.
Point is, unless you're playing a hopelessly gimped party (No full casters) you have to tone it down, even run it right from the book. But throughout all the high/epic level campains I have played/DM/GMed since the introduction of 3e, I have seen that people will easily chainsaw through encounters as written. The only worry I would have with my old paladin if we met this dragon on lv20 would be "Will I get to act before they kill it?".
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Ok, so I have a Golden Ring of Protection +1....
Here... HOLD THIS Dragon!
Now I go sell it.The sizes you are referring to aren't what was intended by the statments. They were referring to creatures more close in size. Otherwise, people would build houses out of helms by haveing Gold Dragons hold them and put them on the ground.
The dragon will gladly hold your ring after he kills you. He'll hold all the rest of your stuff, too.
Oh, and good luck building that house...it'll shrink back to helm-size once you interact with it.
it should be could any other PC deal with as many situations, covering as many roles as a summoner can.I don't know.. I haven't played/built a summoner.. but I am curious. Thats why I would like this to go forward, instead of bickering over if this summoner can kill a dragon, or not.
+1
This!Check out where my summoner and Eidolon Dealt 142-167 to his dragon 1st turn by teleporting and all out attacking (with only +2 weapons in the Eidolon's hands) with Dragon at an AC of 44! What other class could do that to a dragon at crazy range if necessary.
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How does a dragon having magical items, instead of a gold/silver/copper bed to sleep on enhance the game or make sense?
Dragons that spend a good deal of time in humanoid form can find such items rather handy to have.
Guess I missed that part in the books, or SRD.
Since you seem so hung up on running things exactly as they are presented in the Bestiary, I think I should point out that an ancient red dragon (as presented in the Bestiary) has Alter Self as one of it's known Sorcerer spells. Why have the spell, if it's not going to use it. Yes, it's short duration (15 min), but that's enough time to do business, particularly if you can also Teleport. If not to appear human (or whatever race), how would you have the dragon use this spell? And realize that you can't change it for another spell, because then you wouldn't be running the creature as written (and I know how that irks you).
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Okay, let's leave the dragon alone for a few posts then.
Meet Lobo Gris. He is a Quadruped Eidolon that was built to debuff whatever opponent he goes up against one-on-one.
Discuss the power this lv8 Eidolon has. Is he overpowered because of his high Intimidate bonus, or is he weak because he doesn't have as many attacks as possible?
Lol... do all your encounters involve monsters with craploads of gear on? Where do you put your Belts and Circlets on your Shoggoth lol?
I'm just imagining you running an entire campaign ofPimp Monsters!
Any class can beat stock monsters. I addressed that pages ago. If that is your scale for overpowered then everything is overpowered. In a real gamed a DM will adjust the monsters to meet the players builds. If you ever check an AP the monsters are usually CR 20, and they have magic items, and class levels. Do we needs to add 1 class level to justify the treasure. If you point is the summoner can beat up on stock monsters then you are right, but so can the fighter. You should realize by now what is broken for one group is not broken for another. You are not the first to make one of these threads, and they never prove anything.
The dragon I churned out was an edited copy-pasta from the bestiary for a lv20 party.
Kingmaker part 6's boss is for a lv17 party, mine will likely be 16, since they are more players. My dragon CAN be used as a boss for that level, I guess, but then I would make it a lot more interesting, and craft a proper story behind it.
Miracle only costs tons of money if it does something sick. Allowing someone to see a creature for 3 rounds is not. It is one of the few spells that allow for some creativity. Might require a few slots, but that's OK. Clerics won't want anything other than Mass Heal and Miracle at lv9 anyways.
The wizard scribes scrolls with disjunction. It is one of those spells where DC doesn't matter all that much. It is one of the best spells on the list, so yeah, every wizard I make will go for it.
Edit: Ah, slight oversight. Intention was to kill it's buffs first and foremost. Items will likely remain, apparently, since the dragon has Improved Iron Will. So, barely 50 then. Still should not be a problem for a ranger or a fighter (BAB+20, Str or Dex +12, Weapon+7, Skill/Favored Enemy+7, Buffs+2 =+48 to hit). Might take a little longer then.
Point is,...
wait, what? (again)
Your fighter for example will have BAB+20, Str +12, Weapon +5 (max it can go...), Skill/Favored Enemy +0 (what skill? what if your ranger didn't take THIS PARTICULAR ENEMY as favored enemy?), weapon training/feats +5, Buffs +2 = +44 to hit. The dragon has AC 54 without buffs. So your fighter will need a 10 to hit on the highest attack bonus attack and it gets uglier and uglier from there.
Now in reality the dragon would just cast AMF on the next round, so any and all magic becomes useless against him, and his DR 20/magic now prevents him from taking any damage from those nice masterwork arrows that the ranger is plinking him with and the nice masterwork sword that the fighter has. He then proceeds to rip the head off the fighter, whose ac is now somewhere around 25 and the dragon can power attack for 200+ damage a round while the wizard and cleric sit there and scratch their heads.
Any class can beat stock monsters. I addressed that pages ago. If that is your scale for overpowered then everything is overpowered. In a real gamed a DM will adjust the monsters to meet the players builds. If you ever check an AP the monsters are usually CR 20, and they have magic items, and class levels. Do we needs to add 1 class level to justify the treasure. [b]If you point is the summoner can beat up on stock monsters then you are right, but so can the fighter. [b] You should realize by now what is broken for one group is not broken for another. You are not the first to make one of these threads, and they never prove anything.
The point is not about disallowing items, it's about adjusting CR properly when you tweak an encounter.
If you missed the point of this thread... read the above!
:-) Thanks... have a spectacular day!
Once again do fighters( a class that gets made fun of) need to get toned down also since it solos balors and pit fiends? A full caster might take down 4 CR 20 monsters on its own.
A class is only an issue when DM's have trouble challenging it.Once again the AP's bosses ignore the CR stat chart so it seems the chart is for ungeared monster, and the DM is to add gear as appropriate.
AC 51
Fort +32,Ref +35, Will +41
HP 378
Attack +27
AC 36
Good save 22, Poor save 17
HP 360
Attack: HI 30, Low 23
The AP opponent has an AC that is 15 above the chart, and the lowest save is 10 above the chart. [/spoiler]
Seems to me that which matches a good number of monsters is a "pre-buff" chart.
There are lower CR opponents with similar results, and it is usually advised that if the monsters know the PC's are coming to cast spells x,y, and z, active item _____, and summon monster C.
Are you going to say it is only valid to use tactics when the AP tells you to?
Do your boss monsters really just sit there and twiddle their thumbs when they know the PC's are around the corner? Forget boss monsters do any of your intelligent monsters just hanging out refusing to do anything to make the fight harder for the pc's if they get a heads up?
The dragon I churned out was an edited copy-pasta from the bestiary for a lv20 party.
Kingmaker part 6's boss is for a lv17 party, mine will likely be 16, since they are more players. My dragon CAN be used as a boss for that level, I guess, but then I would make it a lot more interesting, and craft a proper story behind it.
Miracle only costs tons of money if it does something sick. Allowing someone to see a creature for 3 rounds is not. It is one of the few spells that allow for some creativity. Might require a few slots, but that's OK. Clerics won't want anything other than Mass Heal and Miracle at lv9 anyways.
The wizard scribes scrolls with disjunction. It is one of those spells where DC doesn't matter all that much. It is one of the best spells on the list, so yeah, every wizard I make will go for it.
Edit: Ah, slight oversight. Intention was to kill it's buffs first and foremost. Items will likely remain, apparently, since the dragon has Improved Iron Will. So, barely 50 then. Still should not be a problem for a ranger or a fighter (BAB+20, Str or Dex +12, Weapon+7, Skill/Favored Enemy+7, Buffs+2 =+48 to hit). Might take a little longer then.
Point is,...
wait, what? (again)
Your fighter for example will have BAB+20, Str +12, Weapon +5 (max it can go...), Skill/Favored Enemy +0 (what skill? what if your ranger didn't take THIS PARTICULAR ENEMY as favored enemy?), weapon training/feats +5, Buffs +2 = +44 to hit. The dragon has AC 54 without buffs. So your fighter will need a 10 to hit on the highest attack bonus attack and it gets uglier and uglier from there.
Now in reality the dragon would just cast AMF on the next round, so any and all magic becomes useless against him, and his DR 20/magic now prevents him from taking any damage from those nice masterwork arrows that the ranger is plinking him with and the nice masterwork sword that the fighter has. He then proceeds to rip the head off the fighter, whose ac is now somewhere around 25 and the dragon can...
My group's CR is not your group's CR. What I mean by that is different groups play the game differently, and what is hard for one group is not hard for another so the DM may have to add treasure that monster reasonably has access to to keep the game challenging. If I used stock monsters against my group it would be an easy game.
If you compare anything to stock monsters the stock monsters lose because those CR numbers are for the average player. When you bring in optomized builds you can't really expect the numbers to hold across the board. That is why you have to take your group into consideration when deciding CR, but Matthies isn't seeing that. He wants to use the current CR as written and apply it to groups everywhere. He also failed to acknowledge the buffed monsters that Paizo uses who pretty much ignore the CR chart especially if they know the players are coming. I could take a CR 18 dragon, a CR 16 bard, and a CR 16 wizard, to equal a CR 20 encounter, and it would be harder than the lone CR 20 dragon. I would buff the dragon with everyone's spells and pushing his number high enough to give the eidolon or summoner trouble. Does that mean the 3 creature encounter I just made up is not really a CR 20?
wait, what? (again)
Your fighter for example will have BAB+20, Str +12, Weapon +5 (max it can go...), Skill/Favored Enemy +0 (what skill? what if your ranger didn't take THIS PARTICULAR ENEMY as favored enemy?), weapon training/feats +5, Buffs +2 = +44 to hit. The dragon has AC 54 without buffs. So your fighter will need a 10 to hit on the highest attack bonus attack and it gets uglier and uglier from there.
I was counting Dragon Bane, at least for the ranger. And what sane ranger does NOT take dragon as a favored enemy by lv20? But here we go, extraneous set-up:
BAB +20
Strength or Dex +12 (Base18, +10 from levels and books, +6 from belt)
Skill = Training, with gloves, that's +7, average the same for favored enemy.
Weapon +5 for fighter / +7 for ranger (Bow+5 and dragon bane arrow)
Feats +2 for fighter (GWF) / +2 for ranger (PBS+WF)
Total of +47/+42/+37/+32 or +47/+47/+42/+37/+32 for ranger. Shave off 6 more if using Power Attack and Deadly Aim. Add +1 from Quickened Haste, +2 from Quickened Blessing of Fervor, +1 from Quickened Prayer, churned out while the casters do real spells with their standard actions. Not impossible, but hard to get off a lot of solid hits.
Now in reality the dragon would just cast AMF
Excellent point, which I somehow overlooked. If they don't just wall themselves off from the dragon, it reduces Disjunction to 20%, and weakens martial characters as long as the PCs don't carry around any lesser or proper artifacts.
my base attacks look like this then.
+15 BAB
+19 STR
+5 Weapons (my primary is dragon bane like yours)
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 From my automatic Flanker (Eidolon)
-2 Huge Creature
-4 Multi attack
Haste +1
Blessing of Ferver +2
Prayer +1
So, My attacks with the same party buffs you have as your fighter/ranger are....
+42/+42/+37/+32 +40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40/+40
Whelp... I guess your fighter is pretty much even with the Summoner... oh yeah... I didn't even add my Edolon into this equation except to flank... but he'd be attacking too.
Also, My AC would be WAAAAY higher than yours due to my +23 Natural armor bonus from being in Twin Eidolon form.
I'm not bragging..... I think that this class is overpowered!
overpowered = filled roles of other players better than the class intended to fill that role.
Best definition of overpowered I've seen.
Totaling: 250.5 expected damage. Which is about 60% more damage than your little pet.So really what's your problem? If I wanted to crank out the damage I could raise this number very easily, but I figured I'd take a conservative route.
-James
Well, I wasted a turn to get him buffed and there in one round with spells. If you are just plain starting at your max damage, let me also do the same.
BTW, why are you doing 3d6? I am doing that much because I am huge... aren't you medium? What weapon does 3d6?
Me in Twin Eidolon Form vs AC 44 (No Power Attack/none of above buffs except Quickened Haste which I can cast/no flanking)
+35/+35/+30/+25, and 14 attacks at +35
Primary attacks will do:3d6+28(2handed str bonus)+5(enhancement bonus)+5(Arcane STrike)= 10.5+38 = 48.5
Secondary Attacks will do: 3d6 +9(1/2 str offhand)+5 (enhancement)+5 (Arcane Strike)= 10.5+19 = 29.5
Haste Attack-48.5*.65 + 97*.2*.85 = 48
1)48.5*.65 + 97*.2*.85 = 48
2)48.5*.35 + 97*.2*.55 = 27.6
3)48.5*.1 + 97*.2*.3 = 10.7
14 attacks - 29.5*.65 + 59*.2*.85 = 14 x 29.2
TOTAL DAMAGE = 543.1 Against an AC of 44.
Why DON'T you have a problem with THIS compared to your fighter? That's me... plus I get another 142 DMG for my Eidolon.
OK, Arguments for not overpowered:
1: Twin eidolon is a lv20 ability. Who cares? 95% of the game does NOT take this into consideration.
2: The eidolon's gear comes out of YOUR pocket, meaning you spread the WBL out over two characters.
3: Dismissal, Magic Circle and various other spells can one-shot or neutralize it.
4: Take out a bard-equivalent caster (lv1-19) and get rid of the eidolon as well.
5: Limited use of eidolon.
6: Doesn't really step on anyone's toes. He is an amalgam of the bard and the druid, without doing the social nor the nature stuff. He relieves the wizard's buffing duty instead of doing his stuff.
OK, Arguments for not overpowered:
1: Twin eidolon is a lv20 ability. Who cares? 95% of the game does NOT take this into consideration.
-- just because it doesn't see play in most campaigns doesn't mean it's not a problem...
2: The eidolon's gear comes out of YOUR pocket, meaning you spread the WBL out over two characters.
--valid point, but it does little to tone down the problem
3: Dismissal, Magic Circle and various other spells can one-shot or neutralize it.
--yes it can be banished/dismissed, but few things have that at their disposal, which combined with easily obtainable SR and being easy to resummon it's a poor counter - magic circle doesn't do squat. Reread eidolon base description
4: Take out a bard-equivalent caster (lv1-19) and get rid of the eidolon as well.
??? huh?
5: Limited use of eidolon.
--How? Because it goes away when the summoner is asleep? I wouldn't consider that terribly limited. There isn't a time limitation otherwise
6: Doesn't really step on anyone's toes. He is an amalgam of the bard and the druid, without doing the social nor the nature stuff. He relieves the wizard's buffing duty instead of doing his stuff.
--Well he pretty much replaces a bard for buffs and a fighter for tanking at the same time without breaking a sweat... I'd call that stepping on toes
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To the original poster's concerns about the Summoner class, I can only speak for the games I've been in.
I've been in a group where another player is playing a Summoner, and we've worked up to 12th level presently. The Summoner in our games has definitely pulled his weight, but he hasn't really dominated the games.
At the levels we've been playing, the eidolon has been fairly effective in dishing out damage, but it usually gets taken out pretty early. It does force the bad guys to target it, and thus it soaks damage away from the PCs, which is really useful.
Since I haven't played to 20th level in any group with Pathfinder, I really can't offer much insight as to that level of play. I have, however, an expectation that most classes would appear broken to me (especially the casters) compared to the levels that I'm used to playing at (which is 1st up to 15th to 17th level).
For the games I've played in, whether or not the capstone ability of a class is overpowered has been a moot point, since we never get there. I would, however, tend to take very seriously the observations of players who routinely play to those levels.
It does sound as if some of them are unimpressed with the Summoner/eidolon that you posted. But I do wonder if you had played the Summoner to level 20, learning the various strengths and limitations of the character at every level, and developing counters as needed, if your Summoner might not be far more powerful than actually presented.
I'd be interested in seeing any playtest reports that you come up with.
My Summoner/Eidolon is on Page 2 of this thread... towards the bottom.
They were unimpressed with the original, which I thought still overpowered... so I made a ridiculous one.
I just did 543.1 Damage to something with an AC of 44 with only summoner buffs. Forget the Eidolon... I am a tank for 20 minutes a day... more than enough for 10 encounters per day.
My AC is 46 (+23 Natural Armor + 6 Bracers of Armor + 3 Deflection (Ring) + 6 Dex -2 Size).
I, the summoner, am better than the fighter. But I also have spells and a pet.
ahem as I pointed out in the samurai level 20 thread, my monk of the four winds will rip your edilion/summoner apart. No matter what tactic or damage you employ I will eventually win.
Immortality and pounce, you have 24 hours to make it back to full health or I just come back (win initiative) and do it again. or you can run from me your whole life, how many teleports did you prepare again?
Anyone gonna make the argument a monk is broken? yeah I thought not.