I friggin Become him. I can choose to have items melded into my skin or not. Constant Effects are ongoing.
My equipment continues to function:
Cloak of Resistance +5
Ring of Protection +5
Bracers of Armor +8
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Circlet of Mental Perfection +6
9 +4 Falcatas (nothing fancy)
Ongoing Spells/Feats:
Arcane Strike (Another +5 unnamed, stacking bonus to all my weapons)
Quick Draw
Exotic Weapon Specialization(Falcata)
Improved Critical(Falcata)
Critical Focus
Tiring Critical
Exausting Critical (Why not switch it up from Blinding)
Toughness
Power Attack
Multi Weapon Fighting
Double Slice
Get rid of Rend and Claws and choose Limbs (Arms again), spend 2 MORe points and give it Limbs(Arms)Again! 1 point for improved Natural armor. Now I've spent 24 points, 2 of which will become my greater aspect.
So now, My attacks look like this:
Primary Attack: Wielding +4 Falcata 2H, +33/+28/+23 (3d6+49 [17-20/x3, Exausting])
Secondary Attacks: 8 Offhand Falcatas +25 (3d6+32 [17-20/x3, exausting]
Saves: Fort +20 ,Reflex +17, Will +19
Spell Resistance: 31 (From Greater Aspect)
AC:50 (+23 Natural, -2 Size, +6 Dex, +8 Amor, +5 Deflection)
With Improved Evasion
Hit Points = 20d8 + 220
I'm sorry, I didn't show you what I would look like at level 20 taking the Eidolon's Form 20 minutes a day for 1 minute increments.
I chose some different Eidolon powers because you weren't happy with him while he was not at full.
I have the ability to have my Eidolon out while in this form, I can even buff it, heal it, or Send the damage that would kill me to it.
I can Dimension Door it to me, I can swap places with it while doing so.
...
...
......
How is this not overpowered to you?
I mean... I could still give it all this, make it a quadraped instead.. which is like -2 str big deal), spend 1 point on pounce instead of improved natural armor....
Now I can move 190ft and do a full attack with a litttttle less damage.
lol perhaps you should know that it's common for dungeons in high-level games to be completely covered by the spell. Does this mean it's cast multiple times? It can. But usually it's just "This is how the Dungeon is like."Your DM must hate you. I personally have never encountered anything like this or placed it in my games. You must have a reliable description of a place to teleport there even with greater teleport, and most BBEGs don't tend to post those on every available bulletin board...
I've seen it alot. But I have played in alot of DM fiat games...most have been fun too.
Not really seeing "broken" here. Level 20 being powerful? oh ya. It's 'sposed to be. Are you comparing it with other level 20 builds?
Greg
Well, if it is a duel and not "Who benefits a party vs monsters more" then i would definitive go wizard.
Either a diviner (who doesn´t like to always have a ini of 30+dex+feats+traits) or a conjurer with his pet (either a Astral Deva or a Nalfeshnee). If i go with the conjurer my pet would hunt the summoner while i finish the Eidolon.
As a diviner i assume i go first. As conjurer it´s a matter of "who rolls higher wins" (as is level 20 most of the time).
Lets start the fight with a timestop, followed by a Prismatic Sphere, and then i gate in either an Pit Fiend or an Star Archon helper (which one depends on my alignment). After that i ready an action to cast Mage's Disjunction if the eidolon comes into range and follow it up with an dominate monster spell. As his Eidolon is not killed the summoner can not summon a new one and the hunt may begin...
On second thought, strike the dominate monster and make it an quickened Magic Jar instead. Time to kill the summoner with his own Eidolon...
Duel comparisons are pointless since it's been stated multiple times that this thread is about general campaign utility (aka how much benefit are you to a party?).
Duels are fun though, I started a separate thread for this one - I'm going to rebuild the eidolon a bit since Matthias' Eidolon is very suboptimal. You can find the duel thread here
Quickest counter to this eidolon? The 8' ceiling.
Squeezing means –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC. I guess that's a good limitation. A lot of foes at this level are similarly sized!
overpowered
On-topic though, the eidolon has a +3 initiative. Compare it to FighterMan, who has a +18 initiative. Fighterman starts in nearly every fight. And I don't think your summoner has a fair chance to start before him either; I'd assume he doesn't have an initiative modifier of above +10 (+4 feat, +2 trait, +4 dex)
Now, the Eidolon has an AC of 32 and 187 hit points on average.
Fightermans attack routine is +38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23, and deals 44.5 average damage per hit if you're anything but True Neutral, except for the first which deals 89 damage due to manyshot. His critical hits deal an average of 112.5 extra damage and come into action 5% of attacks.
DPR:
1 - 89*0.95 + 112.5*0.05 = 84.55 + 5,625 = 90.175
2 - 44.5*0.95 + 112.5*0.05 = 42.275 + 5.625 = 45,675
3 - 44.5*0.95 + 112.5*0.05 = 42.275 + 5.625 = 45,675
4 - 44.5*0.95 + 112.5*0.05 = 42.275 + 5.625 = 45,675
5 - 44.5*0.85 + 112.5*0.05 = 37.825 + 5.625 = 43.45
6 - 44.5*0.60 + 112.5*0.05 = 26.7 + 5.625 = 32.325
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FIRST FULL ATTACK against your eidolon: 302.975 damage on average.
But yeah, then you could turn yourself into an eidolon that FighterMan could eat. If someway your eidolon doesn't die on the first three or four of FighterMans attack and he kind of kills the summoner on the last 2-3 attacks.
-----
If, somehow, the eidolon would get to full attack FighterMan (say, really really lucky on the initiative roll) this would be his offensive output:
Fauchard +30/+25/+20, average damage 54.5 (13.5 from 3d8 + 24 str + 5 magic + 12 PA), crit 15-20x2, Claws +25/+25/+25/+25, average damage 19 (7 from 2d6 + 8 str + 4 PA), crit 19-20x2. +4 AB on threat confirmation rolls.
Target AC is 32, hit points is 230.
1 - 0.95*54.5 + 0.3*0.95*54.5 = 51.775 + 15.5325 = 67,3075
2 - 0.7*54.5 + 0.3*0.9*54.5 = 38.15 + 14.715 = 52,865
3 - 0.45*54.5 + 0.3*0.65*54.5 = 24.525 + 10.6275 = 35,1525
4 - 0.7*19 + 0.1*0.9*19 = 13.3 + 1.71 = 15.01
5 - 0.7*19 + 0.1*0.9*19 = 13.3 + 1.71 = 15.01
6 - 0.7*19 + 0.1*0.9*19 = 13.3 + 1.71 = 15.01
7 - 0.7*19 + 0.1*0.9*19 = 13.3 + 1.71 = 15.01
TOTAL DAMAGE TO FIGHTERMAN = 215,365
So even if the eidolon GOT to attack first, he only MIGHT kill fighterman.
Basically, the only option for the eidolon/summoner to win is if the summoner got lucky and won initiative, had access to windwall, and fighterman isn't more than 100 ft. away, because the eidolon has to charge ASAP or fighterman might move and be able to attack anyway.
It's not IMPOSSIBLE for the summoner/eidolon to win if lucky, but it's quite unlikely.
I friggin Become him. I can choose to have items melded into my skin or not. Constant Effects are ongoing.
My equipment continues to function:
Cloak of Resistance +5
Ring of Protection +5
Bracers of Armor +8
Belt of Physical Perfection +6
Circlet of Mental Perfection +6
9 +4 Falcatas (nothing fancy)Ongoing Spells/Feats:
Arcane Strike (Another +5 unnamed, stacking bonus to all my weapons)
Quick Draw
Exotic Weapon Specialization(Falcata)
Improved Critical(Falcata)
Critical Focus
Tiring Critical
Exausting Critical (Why not switch it up from Blinding)
Toughness
Power Attack
Multi Weapon Fighting
Double SliceGet rid of Rend and Claws and choose Limbs (Arms again), spend 2 MORe points and give it Limbs(Arms)Again! 1 point for improved Natural armor. Now I've spent 24 points, 2 of which will become my greater aspect.
So now, My attacks look like this:
Primary Attack: Wielding +4 Falcata 2H, +33/+28/+23 (3d6+49 [17-20/x3, Exausting])Secondary Attacks: 8 Offhand Falcatas +25 (3d6+32 [17-20/x3, exausting]
Saves: Fort +20 ,Reflex +17, Will +19
Spell Resistance: 31 (From Greater Aspect)
AC:50 (+23 Natural, -2 Size, +6 Dex, +8 Amor, +5 Deflection)
With Improved Evasion
Hit Points = 20d8 + 220I'm sorry, I didn't show you what I would look like at level 20 taking the Eidolon's Form 20 minutes a day for 1 minute increments.
I chose some different Eidolon powers because you weren't happy with him while he was not at full.
I have the ability to have my Eidolon out while in this form, I can even buff it, heal it, or Send the damage that would kill me to it.
I can Dimension Door it to me, I can swap places with it while doing so....
...
......
How is this not overpowered to you?
I mean... I could still give it all this, make it a quadraped instead.. which is like -2 str big deal), spend 1 point on pounce instead of improved natural armor....
Now I can move 190ft and do a full attack with a litttttle less damage.
That is not overpowered, and its probably about standard for level 20. Some groups have better, and other have worse characters.
Wow it sure gets old saying the same exact thing. This thread is not about duels, it's about campaign utility (ps fighterman: your damage assumes bane arrows? How does fighterman know which ones to use? you assume they just happened to wander across each other? Summoners do have invisibility, combat goes a lot more like... Eidolon spots fighterman from about 1.5 miles out [it does have its own skill points!] Eidolon invisibly flies over to fighterman after summoner buffs it. Fighterman is dead. Oops.)
The eidolon on his own is not overpowered. The summoner, even in eidolon form, is not (too) overpowered. The fact that the summoner has both is problematic.
overpoweredNow, the Eidolon has an AC of 32 and 187 hit points on average.
Fightermans attack routine is +38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23, and deals 44.5 average damage per hit if you're anything but True Neutral, except for the first which deals 89 damage due to manyshot. His critical hits deal an average of 112.5 extra damage and come into action 5% of attacks.
DPR:
1 - 89*0.95 + 112.5*0.05 = 84.55 + 5,625 = 90.175
2 - 44.5*0.95 + 112.5*0.05 = 42.275 + 5.625 = 45,675
3 - 44.5*0.95 + 112.5*0.05 = 42.275 + 5.625 = 45,675
4 - 44.5*0.95 + 112.5*0.05 = 42.275 + 5.625 = 45,675
5 - 44.5*0.85 + 112.5*0.05 = 37.825 + 5.625 = 43.45
6 - 44.5*0.60 + 112.5*0.05 = 26.7 + 5.625 = 32.325
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FIRST FULL ATTACK against your eidolon: 302.975 damage on average.etc.....
PS: you calculated Eidolons damage incorrectly by not multiplying is damage x2 on crits. Lets just assume you spend your first turn killing my Eidolon though.
Ok Turn 1 for you is over, that was your chance. Options for me:
1) Teleport Away - I've lived.
2) Teleport Away - Change into Eidolon, Summon Eidolon Teleport Back having lost nothing but 3 rounds. Enough for you to move away? Does your character even know what happened?
3) Change into Eidolon (Standard), Fly 90ft towards you. Your damage vs me with an AC of 50 will drop immensely next turn anway.
Target AC is 32 with 230hp? Ok.
DPR:
1 - 59.5*0.95 + 178.5*.2*0.95 = 90.4
2 - 59.5*0.85 + 178.5*.2*0.85 = 80.9
3 - 59.5*0.60 + 178.5*.2*0.60 = 57.1
4 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
5 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
6 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
7 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
8 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
9 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
10 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
11 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
So I deal 609.2 damage.
Your grandmother just fealt that....
But alas... this isn't about duels... it's about why would anyone play a duel weapon fighter when they can have this guy....
I don't understand why everyone thinks that going first is auto-win. What would you do on your first round that is so devastating? There's already a duel thread here. You can add to it there.
Ok, the above example I just gave is only me... in my Eidolon's form.
I just owned his level 20 fighter for dealing damage.
I get an Eidolon on top of that.
I get the versatility of spells on top of that.
If I know what I am going up against... say goodbye. Because I get the versatility of being able to change my Eidolon at a whim (with Transmogrify) or add more points to him (With Greater Evolutionary Surge).
11 times per day... I can summon monster 9, and tell it to make me tea because I don't need it for anything else.
Ok, the above example I just gave is only me... in my Eidolon's form.
I just owned his level 20 fighter.
I get an Eidolon on top of that.
I get the versatility of spells on top of that.
If I know what I am going up against... say goodbye. Because I get the versatility of being able to change my Eidolon at a whim (with Transmogrify) or add more points to him (With Greater Evolutionary Surge).11 times per day... I can summon monster 9, and tell it to make me tea because I don't need it for anything else.
Timestop. Force cage. Antimagic field. End time stop. Mundane crossbow.
It's a powerful build, yes. But everyone's powerful at 20th level, and everyone has a weakness. Twin Form is suppressed by the antimagic field. Your weapons become unuseable, and you have no mundane way to break the cage. I'm not sure if your eidolon would wink out in an antimagic field, but I think it would. Even if not, another force cage will handle it.
If I know what I am going up against... say goodbye. Because I get the versatility of being able to change my Eidolon at a whim (with Transmogrify) or add more points to him (With Greater Evolutionary Surge).
Might I remind you that Transmogrify cost 1k gp per cast.
Also for duels, going with my nom-beast build (in the summoner's handbook thread), every duel will at best be a blowout for me or initiative at worst. Round 1, summon eidolon on your face. Eidolon does bite attack at +30 and grapple at +40. Fighters don't have a CMD of 40 (unless they specifically build for it), their AC might be a minor issue, but a build that's so defensive is likely not going to have too much in terms of DPR. Casters don't have the 30 AC or the CMD of 40 even if they try. So it just gobbles them up. Also casters can't make concentration checks of 50+spell level. So they're initiative essentially.
Ring of Freedom of movement 40,000 gp
Timestop. Force cage. Antimagic field. End time stop. Mundane crossbow.
It's a powerful build, yes. But everyone's powerful at 20th level, and everyone has a weakness. Twin Form is suppressed by the antimagic field. Your weapons become unuseable, and you have no mundane way to break the cage. I'm not sure if your eidolon would wink out in an antimagic field, but I think it would. Even if not, another force cage will handle it.
You know this doesn't work, right?
AMF is personal range, 10 ft emanation. So what are you going to do now that you have it cast on you and a summoner in a forcecage? Stand up against the bars? Okay, summoner backs up against the far end of the cage (20 ft cube as specified by spell), outside your 10 ft radius of AMF and uses his 11/day gate/summon monster to summon something large to smack you around while you're stuck in AMF (a summoned monster can't reach through the AMF, but the rock/tree/insert object here can - a gated creature is called, not summoned so it doesn't have any issues).
Now what?
Might I remind you that Transmogrify cost 1k gp per cast.
Also for duels, going with my nom-beast build (in the summoner's handbook thread), every duel will at best be a blowout for me or initiative at worst. Round 1, summon eidolon on your face. Eidolon does bite attack at +30 and grapple at +40. Fighters don't have a CMD of 40 (unless they specifically build for it), their AC might be a minor issue, but a build that's so defensive is likely not going to have too much in terms of DPR. Casters don't have the 30 AC or the CMD of 40 even if they try. So it just gobbles them up. Also casters can't make concentration checks of 50+spell level. So they're initiative essentially.
wait what? summon eidolon is a 1 round casting time spell. It cannot be quickened since it's longer than a full-round action. So that duel goes more like: round 1. You start casting summon eidolon. Opponent: Either 1-shots you or inflicts a minimum of 100 points of damage for a very conservative estimate of a physical damage build. you immediately need to make a concentration check of 12 + damage dealt. Good luck!
wait what? summon eidolon is a 1 round casting time spell. It cannot be quickened since it's longer than a full-round action. So that duel goes more like: round 1. You start casting summon eidolon. Opponent: Either 1-shots you or inflicts a minimum of 100 points of damage for a very conservative estimate of a physical...Might I remind you that Transmogrify cost 1k gp per cast.
Also for duels, going with my nom-beast build (in the summoner's handbook thread), every duel will at best be a blowout for me or initiative at worst. Round 1, summon eidolon on your face. Eidolon does bite attack at +30 and grapple at +40. Fighters don't have a CMD of 40 (unless they specifically build for it), their AC might be a minor issue, but a build that's so defensive is likely not going to have too much in terms of DPR. Casters don't have the 30 AC or the CMD of 40 even if they try. So it just gobbles them up. Also casters can't make concentration checks of 50+spell level. So they're initiative essentially.
Forgot about that, the average encounter distance is within charging range (otherwise I'd have my eidolon out before they get up to me) then simply having it out ahead of time is enough, because my point of dealing with +40 grapple still holds. Even otherwise that gives me time to cast something like a teleport up to their face (keeping it at merely huge size for teleporting reasons) so that my eidolon can FRA them ending with the +40 grapple bite.
Arguing about level 20 balance is like a kid growing up in Darfur and arguing that the U.S. has more nukes than Russia and therefore is more of a threat when your neighbors are being slaughtered by Muslims with medieval axes...
Except for those of us that are actually playing in level 20 campaigns. Those do happen!
Wow it sure gets old saying the same exact thing. This thread is not about duels, it's about campaign utility (ps fighterman: your damage assumes bane arrows? How does fighterman know which ones to use?
I agree that the game isn't about duels, but it can be hard to discuss if something is broken or not without comparing it to something else. FighterMan has a good chance of two-rounding a balor, how large chance does the eidolon or even eidolon + summoner have?
Since the eidolon's focus in this case is DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE, as it's built as a glass cannon, it seems fair to compare it's damage to a fighters. If the fighter doesn't clearly win against the eidolon on itself, the eidolon might be overpowered (since it should be weaker at fighting than a fighter, since it's a pet).
That is true, I probably shouldn't have included the bane damage. It would still one round KO the eidolon most of the time, though. DPR would probably still be over 250.
you assume they just happened to wander across each other? Summoners do have invisibility, combat goes a lot more like... Eidolon spots fighterman from about 1.5 miles out [it does have its own skill points!] Eidolon invisibly flies over to fighterman after summoner buffs it. Fighterman is dead. Oops.)
FighterMan can also easily afford invisibility, and I hardly doubt that the eidolon can spot anything from 1.5 miles out by RAW; have you SEEN the distance penalties to Perception? Even if the eidolon maxes perception though, it isn't that high; 15 ranks + 3 class + what? 2 wis maybe? For a total of +18? Fighterman has +30. Yes, the summoner might very well have more but wisdom is a dump stat for him so probably still lower than FighterMan.
1. Summoner's have access to it.
2. It is only 1 second level spell slot for them or they could have it on a scroll or wand and still use it.
3. It allows them to make a 200ft long 100 ft high wall of wind that an eidolon is large enough to successfully fly near it.
Yes, I agree that Wind Wall is problematic, however there's a large chance it won't get of - and even then, it's stationary and not that hard to move through/over. Remember that the eidolon gets down to 90 hit points if he gets more than 100 ft. from the summoner - that means even a single crit takes it out.
So if summoner goes first, puts up a wind wall, then fighterman (cause let's face it, it's NOT going to be summoner - eidolon - fighterman) downs a potion of fly, activates boots of haste and moves up in the air so he's about 120 ft. away from the summoner. Now, the eidolon can charge and has a decent chance of killing him, but it's far from 100% and the eidolon gets down to 50% life. Summoner gets his action, and might have a chance of making the game unwinnable for FighterMan, but if he doesn't, well he's screwed.
Thus:
If fighterman goes first, he wins.
If summoner goes first, he probably wins.
Fighterman goes first most of the time.
Thus, I don't see how the eidolon can be seen as overpowered, when one of the lower-tier classes can beat it over 50% of the time when together with the summoner.
Note that I'm not trying to say that the summoner and/or eidolon is WEAK, I'm refuting the claim that the eidolon is BROKEN.
PS: you calculated Eidolons damage incorrectly by not multiplying is damage x2 on crits. Lets just assume you spend your first turn killing my Eidolon though.
I most certainly did not. This is how I calculated it (for first attack):
0.95*54.5 + 0.3*0.95*54.5 = 51.775 + 15.5325 = 67,3075Chance to hit*Damage + Chance to threat*chance to confirm*extra damage from critical.
2) You cannot resummon your eidolon for a day if it's been slain.
3) You haven't posted your own build so I don't know where you got your 50 AC from. Would be nice to see. Remember that you don't get any AC bonuses from armor and/or shield.
Please post your build, would be nice to know your other stats.
1 - 59.5*0.95 + 178.5*.2*0.95 = 90.4
2 - 59.5*0.85 + 178.5*.2*0.85 = 80.9
3 - 59.5*0.60 + 178.5*.2*0.60 = 57.14 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
5 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
6 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
7 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
8 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
9 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
10 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
11 - 42.5*.7 + 127.5*.2*.7 = 47.6
Clearly you've missed a lot of math. This simply does not add up. Please post full build so we can show you where you're wrong.
And if going for DPR, I'd MUCH rather play fighterman than the summoner. The summoner's got a lot of nice stuff and is clearly the one who is going to be missed most if he's out a session (at least if the party isn't caster heavy already), but that haven't got much to do with the eidolon but rather that at high levels, casters > non-casters.
My build is towards the top of this page... there you have your relevant info to see where I get my numbers from.
I am a huge creature so my falcata is huge.
3d6 (Falcata dmg) + 4 (Falcata enhancement damage) +5 (arcane strike dmg) + 12 (Wielding weapon 2handed power attack damage)+28 (wielding weapon 2 handed Strength damage from having a Strength of 42+6 from str belt)
That comes out to...... 59.5 avg damage for first three attacks.
Now offhand:
3d6 (Falcata Dmg) + 4(Falcata enhancement damage) +5 (Arcane strike) + 4 (power attack damage - diminished for offhand) +19 (str damage, see double slice)
this comes out toooo...... 42.5 avg damage for each offhand attack.
Thanks for telling me how wrong I am. I am able to have double slice because Multi weapon Fighting says:
Special: "This feat replaces 2 Weapon Fighting for creatures with more than 2 arms."
Therefore, the requirements for Double Slice are met, because I have more than 2 arms and Multi Weapon Fighting in place of Two Weapon FIghting.
Edit: I accidently added one too many with crit multiplier...
1 - 59.5*0.95 + 119*.2*0.95 = 78
2 - 59.5*0.85 + 119*.2*0.85 = 70.8
3 - 59.5*0.60 + 119*.2*0.60 = 50
4 - 42.5*.7 + 85*.2*.7 = 41.7
5 - 42.5*.7 + 85*.2*.7 = 41.7
6 - 42.5*.7 + 85*.2*.7 = 41.7
7 - 42.5*.7 + 85*.2*.7 = 41.7
8 - 42.5*.7 + 85*.2*.7 = 41.7
9 - 42.5*.7 + 85*.2*.7 = 41.7
10 - 42.5*.7 + 85*.2*.7 = 41.7
11 - 42.5*.7 + 85*.2*.7 = 41.7
532.5 DMG. Still FAR, FAR, FAR above your fighter. And that is just me, I still get an eidolon and spells.
In a RotRL that im playing, our summons edilon has an AC/HP/Attacks as good if not better than our figher/rouge and pally. I also know that our player for the PC spent a lot of time to get it right.
Anyway, his eidolon is not a good one for comparison. We should forget this thread and pick a different thread where strong builds go against strong builds. I agree with a lot of other people this is getting alil too arbitrary and theory craft related. I knew this thread was dead when I saw the old, time stop into a bunch of other s#~@ argument.
What are you talking about? This thread is about how broken the Summoner Class is.... are you high?
What other people are you agreeing with about arbitrary and theory crafted? huh... what? I just used normal feats and abilities and I alone, can out damage fighterman.... then of course, there is my eidolon bringing up the rear with some MORE damage.
Why are you trying to steer people away from this thread. I'm here simply trying to point out to other DMs, players, and the game developers that the Summoner class is broken. Don't allow it in your games unless you want every fight to be extremely one sided with your players being constantly outshined by the Summoner.
It needs a big ole Nerf Bat!
If you say that my Eidolon isn't optimized then you are simply making my point for me, showing everyone here that you can build an even MORE powerful Summoner. (Which I think you cannot... but go ahead)
PS: My Eidolon's AC isn't 32 it would be 36 because I can have mage armor on it.
Hell, I could put 8 +3 Defending Weapons in his hand and give him +24 AC as well.
your dmg numbers dont appear to take hit chance into account
omg I am stupid... I have just actively participated in a trolling.
if it helps I forgive you lol honest mistake
Get rid of Rend and Claws and choose Limbs (Arms again)
Can't get rid of stuff while in twin eidolon form. Where do you get that from? You're stuck with your claws.
Bracers of Armor +8
Ceases to function as it's an armor bonus, as by the rules for the Polymorph subschool.
Now offhand:
3d6 (Falcata Dmg) + 4(Falcata enhancement damage) +5 (Arcane strike) + 4 (power attack damage - diminished for offhand) +19 (str damage, see double slice)
You can't even take multi-weapon fighting as you do not have three or more arms when you gain feats.
You would only gain Double Slice bonus for one single off-hand weapon anyway, as stated by Double Slice.
Off-hand damage for your five off-hand attacks is thus 10.5 + 4 + 5 + 4 + 9 = 32.5
Also note that FighterMan has DR 5/- so all attacks are lowered 5 points.
Your primary attack should be:
15 BaB + 19 str + 4 magic - 4 PA - 6 MWF = +28/+23/+18
Damage: 10.5 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 28 - 5 = 54.5
Your five off-hand attacks should be:
15 BaB + 19 str + 4 magic - 4 PA - 10 MWF = +18
Damage: 10.5 + 4 + 5 + 4 + 9 - 5 = 27.5
So yeah, you had a few major errors. Nothing wrong with that, such things happen, but before you go touting out a build's brokeness, double check your math (preferably ask for help if you're unsure).
You do the DPR math.
Get rid of Rend and Claws and choose Limbs (Arms again)
Can't get rid of stuff while in twin eidolon form. Where do you get that from? You're stuck with your claws.
Bracers of Armor +8Ceases to function as it's an armor bonus, as by the rules for the Polymorph subschool.
Now offhand:
3d6 (Falcata Dmg) + 4(Falcata enhancement damage) +5 (Arcane strike) + 4 (power attack damage - diminished for offhand) +19 (str damage, see double slice)
You can't even take multi-weapon fighting as you do not have three or more arms when you gain feats.
You would only gain Double Slice bonus for one single off-hand weapon anyway, as stated by Double Slice.
Off-hand damage for your five off-hand attacks is thus 10.5 + 4 + 5 + 4 + 9 = 32.5
Also note that FighterMan has DR 5/- so all attacks are lowered 5 points.
Your primary attack should be:
15 BaB + 19 str + 4 magic - 4 PA - 6 MWF = +28/+23/+18
Damage: 10.5 + 4 + 5 + 12 + 28 - 5 = 54.5Your five off-hand attacks should be:
15 BaB + 19 str + 4 magic - 4 PA - 10 MWF = +18
Damage: 10.5 + 4 + 5 + 4 + 9 - 5 = 27.5So yeah, you had a few major errors. Nothing wrong with that, such things happen, but before you go touting out a build's brokeness, double check your math (preferably ask for help if you're unsure).
You do the DPR math.
1)Summoners may CHOOSE to have their idems meld... the rules for polymorph say "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)"
So the +8 to armor still applies.
2)You didn't like my first eidolon, so I built a new one to show you how even MORE powerful it could be and I could be... trying to show people how overpowered it is... remember? So I'm just changing it to be more powerful... which I can do for a measely 1k gp spell at level 20 anyway.
3)I will make an updated Eidolon and Summoner so that you can see how I can choose multiweapon fighting earlier... so that you are happy.
Timestop. Force cage. Antimagic field. End time stop. Mundane crossbow.
It's a powerful build, yes. But everyone's powerful at 20th level, and everyone has a weakness. Twin Form is suppressed by the antimagic field. Your weapons become unuseable, and you have no mundane way to break the cage. I'm not sure if your eidolon would wink out in an antimagic field, but I think it would. Even if not, another force cage will handle it.
You know this doesn't work, right?
AMF is personal range, 10 ft emanation.
You're right, I entirely missed that. Can't even use a familiar to help, since it's not a spell targeting "You". Whoops.
-----------------------
I don't think you quoted what you wanted to quote - this quote specifically is about armor not working. However, the point about having it be a choice to work is valid, since you do have arms to wear bracers in the new form and1)Summoners may CHOOSE to have their idems meld... the rules for polymorph say "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)"
So the +8 to armor still applies.
Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
)I will make an updated Eidolon and Summoner so that you can see how I can choose multiweapon fighting earlier... so that you are happy.
One request, please spoiler tag each build. Pretty please. Makes threads so much easier to read, for me at least :P
Greg
I don't think you quoted what you wanted to quote - this quote specifically is about armor not working. However, the point about having it be a choice to work is valid1)Summoners may CHOOSE to have their idems meld... the rules for polymorph say "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)"
So the +8 to armor still applies.
I quoted the right part.... I Bolded the part above that I want to emphasize....
I quoted the right part.... I Bolded the part above that I want to emphasize....I don't think you quoted what you wanted to quote - this quote specifically is about armor not working. However, the point about having it be a choice to work is valid1)Summoners may CHOOSE to have their idems meld... the rules for polymorph say "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)"
So the +8 to armor still applies.
Honest question, don't bracers provide a constant "armor bonus" that would cease to function? Though, it is an invisible shield, it is still listed as "armor bonus".
Greg
It's good for clearing away mooks below CR16, as it won't hit anything level-relevant on anything but the first (and maybe second, if buffed) attack.
It's about as impressive as a rogue or monk at the same level. If something with less than 30 to it's first attack hits your fighter more than once on lv20, you deserve the spanking for being horrible at your job.
I quoted the right part.... I Bolded the part above that I want to emphasize....I don't think you quoted what you wanted to quote - this quote specifically is about armor not working. However, the point about having it be a choice to work is valid1)Summoners may CHOOSE to have their idems meld... the rules for polymorph say "Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)"
So the +8 to armor still applies.
Honest question, don't bracers provide a constant "armor bonus" that would cease to function? Though, it is an invisible shield, it is still listed as "armor bonus".
Greg
Also the twin eidolon ability doesn't directly follow polymorph rules.
***spoiler omitted***
"The only similarity to polymorph is that he can choose to have gear he carries become absorbed by his new form. Twin Eidolon otherwise follows all of its own rules.
Then the next sentence says that items with continuous effects continue to function while absorbed in this way and there is no clause stating that armor and shield bonuses go away.
Just re-read the ability from PRD...also, since it says it follows rules from Polymorph..re-read that section as well.
FAQing this. I can see it read as working or not as working.
Arguement against working- "If one reads the polymorph subschool, it can be seen that:
"Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function)" and the Twin Eidolon ability states it functions as a spell from the polymorph subschool. The last line of the ability seems to be cut and pasted directly from the polyschool description (leaving out the part in parentheses).
Which brings us to...
Arguement for working- The creators INTENTIONALLY left out the part in parentheses. (because twin eidolon functions as an exception to the polymorph subschool rules)
I lean towards the subschool rules take precedence. But, I can see the other arguement. If the word "except" were to introduce the last sentence of the ability, I would change my view :P
Greg
Working on my own 20th level summoner, which I'll post when finished, but for the "overpowered damage" argument, here's the attack sequence - it might change slightly from final, but it's pretty close:
+5 Brilliant Energy greatsword (huge) (19-20/x2)
+31/+26/+21 (+15 BAB, +17 STR, -4 power attack, -2 size, +5 enhancement)
4d6+42 (+25 STR, +12 power attack, +5 enhancement)
6 +1 Brilliant Energy Pincers (20/x2)
+25 x6 (+15 BAB, +17 STR, -4 power attack, -2 size, -2 secondary, +1 enhancement)
3d8+13 (+8 STR, +4 power attack, +1 enhancement)
----------
If under effects of enlarge person:
+5 Brilliant Energy greatsword (huge) (19-20/x2)
+30/+25/+20 (+15 BAB, +18 STR, -4 power attack, -4 size, +5 enhancement)
6d6+44 (+27 STR, +12 power attack, +5 enhancement)
6 +1 Brilliant Energy Pincers (20/x2)
+24 x6 (+15 BAB, +18 STR, -4 power attack, -4 size, -2 secondary, +1 enhancement)
4d8+14 (+9 STR, +4 power attack, +1 enhancement)
With pounce, he can make a full attack on a charge, with a 80' fly speed, so I'll only give full-attack DPR:
This is against AC 18, which is FighterMan's AC against Brilliant energy weapons
As calculated by the DPR spreadsheet:
Normal: 334.16
Enlarged: 395.3
I was very conservative with what I allowed with the next two builds. I choose no weapons over a total +5 Bonus.
I didn't allow myself Double Slice even though I think it works.
I focused on Maximizing damage.
The AC of the Eidolon is including the Having the Defending Weapons active for the first round and my damage/attack would both go down by 2 per attack... however, the first round I plan on getting to my enemy, so it's only 1 attack possible anyway.
Myrrk
20 Eidolon
Huge True Neutral Outsider
Init +3;Senses Darkvision 60ft, Perception +18
AC 56 (38 while in attack mode)(+23 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size, +4 Mage Armor)
HP 165 (15d10 + 90)
Fort +15 Reflex +10 Will +15
Improved Evasion, +4 will vs enchantment
Spd 30ft, Flight 70ft(poor)
Melee +2 Defending Falcata + 25/+20/+15 (3d6+38[17-20/x3]), 8 +2 Defending Kukri +25 (2d6+16[15-20])
Str 42 Dex 20 Con 22 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11
Skills Fly +17, Perception +18, Use Magic Device+18, Acrobatics+21
Biped
Huge(10)
Limbs (Arms)+(Claws)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Limbs (Legs)
Flight (Winged)(70ft)(4)
Total= 22 (6 points going to Summoner for aspects)
Critical Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata), Improved Critical(Falcata), Multi Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon Proficiency(Kukri), Improved Critical (Kukri), Staggering Critical
Full Attack Damage vs AC 32
1 - 48.5*0.7 + 97*.2*0.9 = 51.4
2 - 48.5*0.45 + 97*.2*0.65 = 34.4
3 - 48.5*0.2 + 97*.2*0.4 = 17.5
4 - 23*.7 + 23*.3*.9 = 22.3
5 - 23*.7 + 23*.3*.9 = 22.3
6 - 23*.7 + 23*.3*.9 = 22.3
7 - 23*.7 + 23*.3*.9 = 22.3
8 - 23*.7 + 23*.3*.9 = 22.3
9 - 23*.7 + 23*.3*.9 = 22.3
10 - 23*.7 + 23*.3*.9 = 22.3
11 - 23*.7 + 23*.3*.9 = 22.3
Total DPR = 281.7
Rolf Balkan (In Eidolon Form)
20 Summoner
Huge True Neutral Human
Init - ;Senses Darkvision 60ft,Perception +24
AC 51 (+26 Natural, +6 Dex, -2 Size, +6 Armor,+3 Deflection)
HP 305 (20d8 +220)
Fort +19 Reflex +18 Will +18
Evasion
Spd 30ft, Flight 70ft(poor)
Melee +4 Falcata + 29/+24/+19 (3d6+49[17-20/x3]), 14 +4 Falcata +29 (3d6+25[17-20/x3])
Str 48 Dex 26 Con 28 Int 14 Wis 18 Cha 24
Skills Fly +25, Perception +27, Use Magic Device+25, Acrobatics+21
Aspect- Limbs(Arms)(2) Note: This allows me to choose MultiWeapon FIghting.
Greater Aspect- 2xLimbs(Arms)(4)--but only takes 2 from eidolon.
Feats Arcane Strike, Quick Draw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Falcata),Toughness,Power Attack, Weapon Focus(Falcata) Improved Critical(Falcata), Multi Weapon Fighting, Critical Focus, Staggering Critical, Quicken Spell
Pertinent Items Ring of Protection +3, Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Circlet of Mental Perfection +4, Ring of Evasion
Get ready for some damage:
Full Attack Damage vs AC 32
1 - 59.5*0.9 + 119*.2*0.95 = 76.2
2 - 59.5*0.65 + 119*.2*0.85 = 61.3
3 - 59.5*0.4 + 119*.2*0.6 = 38.1
4 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
5 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
6 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
7 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
8 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
9 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
10 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
11 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
12 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
13 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
14 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
15 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
16 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
17 - 35.5*.9 + 71*.2*.95 = 45.4
Total DPR = 811.2 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's the equivalent of 232d6 damage.
Melee +4 Falcata + 29/+24/+19 (3d6+49[17-20/x3]), 14 +4 Falcata +29 (3d6+25[17-20/x3])
Where do you get 14 arms from? Your Eidolon only has 10, and you take its form.
As a standard action, the summoner can assume the shape of his eidolon, copying all of its evolutions, form, and abilities. ... The summoner loses his natural attacks and all racial traits (except bonus feats, skills, and languages) in favor of the abilities granted by his eidolon’s evolutions. The summoner retains all of his class features
I'd say that you don't get the benefit of Aspect or Greater Aspect while you're mimicking the Eidolon, but I'll admit that it's a grey area. I'm also not entirely sure that Aspect and Greater Aspect are supposed to stack, but as-written, they seem to.
Also, based on the DPR spreadsheet, I get a total of 665.95 for you (even with 14 arms). I think your calculations are off. I think your offhand attacks (all 14 of them) should be doing +9 STR + 4 Power attack + 4 enhancement = 3d6+17 damage. Since you didn't include how you got to +25 like Greg asked, I don't know where the extra +8 came from. If it's that you didn't halve your strength for offhand attacks (which seems most likely), please cite me that rule.
@Bobson
Sorry, it's actually 3d6+22 (+9 str, +4 enhancement, +4 power attack, +5 arcane strike) Woops.... so, instead of 35.5 it will be 32.5 for my offhands.
I accidently added the bonus from having the belt on the end instead of doing it all as one.
I get 14 attacks because of this line of Twin Eidolon
"The summoner retains all of his class features"
Aspect and Greater Aspect are class features.