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OK, so I screwed up the encounter design for the level 6 Arena of Double Doom. This time it will go right. The APL here is 10 because they are fewer than 4 players. The first encounter will be Easy (APL-1), then Average (APL), and so one. The number of enemies 1-3 will be randomized each encounter and the CR adjusted appropriately.
Level 6 Human Ninja “Kato”
Str 24 (17+2racial+1 level+4belt)
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 12 (12+2belt)
Feats
1 Weapon Focus
1b Dodge
3 Power Attack
5 Furious Focus
7 Extra Ki
9 Iron Will
11 Great Fortitude (I’d really like to take a Extra Ninja Master Trick. Dev’s want to comment on the possible existence of such a feat?)
Ninja Tricks
2 Vanishing Trick
4 Shadow Clone
6 Pressure Points
8 Darkvision
10 Invisible Blade
Ki Points 9
Gear (82,000)
+3 Katana (18335)
Celestial Armor (22400)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
Ring of Protection +2 (8000)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9000)
Belt of Str+4 (16000)
Headband of Cha+2 (4000)
Numerous Shuriken
80hp
AC 25 (9armor+2dex+1dodge+2def+1nat)
Touch 15
Flatfooted 20
CMB +15
CMD 27
Fort 9 (3+1con+2feat+3res)
Ref 12 (7+2dex+3res)
Will 8 (3+2feat+3res)
Initiative +2
Katana
+19/+14 d10+10
Katana Power Attack
+19/+11 d10+19
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Level 1 Fighter/ 10 Samurai Half-Orc Ronin Samurai “Sam”
Str 21 (16+2racial+2belt+1level)
Dex 16 (15+1 level)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 8
Feats
1 Improved Shield Bash
1b TWF
3 Mounted Combat
4b Quick Draw
5 Double Slice
7 Weapon Focus (Katana)
7b Weapon Specialization (Katana)
9 Improved Critical (Katana)
11 Critical Focus
Resolve 5/day
Gear (82,000)
+3 Corrosive Adamantine Katana (35335)
+3 Breastplate (9350)
+1 Bashing Spiked Light Steel Shield (4159)
Belt of Strength +2 (4000)
Cloak of Resistance +3 (9000)
Ring of Protection +2 (8000)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000)
+1 Composite (5) Longbow (3000)
Handy Haversack (2000)
Horseshoes of Speed (3000)
+1 Breastplate Barding for Horse (1950)
103hp
AC 27 (9armor+3dex+2shield+2def+1nat)
Touch 15
Flatfooted 22
Fort 12 (7+2con+3res)
Ref 9 (3+3dex+3res)
Will 7 (3+1wis+3res) (10 vs fear)
Init +3
Katana
+20/+15/+10 d10+10+d6 acid
Katana & Spiked Shield
+18/+13/+8 d10+10+d6 acid & +15 d8+6
+19/+14/+9 d10+10+d6 acid & +16 d8+6 (mounted vs medium or smaller)
Ride Skill 17
Sam’s Trusty Horse “Horace”
Str 21 (16+5)
Dex 17 (13+3)
Con 16 (+1 level)
Int 3 (2+1level)
Wis 12
Cha 6
Feats
1 Dodge
2 Weapon Focus (hooves)
5 Improved Natural Attack (hooves)
8 Medium Armor Proficiency
10 Power Attack
HP 63
AC 28 (7armor+3dex+8nat+1dodge-1size)
Touch 14
Flatfooted 25
Fort 9
Ref 9
Will 4
Bite+10 d4+5, 2 hooves +11 d8+5
Power Attack
Bite +8 d4+9, 2 hooves +9 d8+9
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So that's that. I'll get the first encounter going as soon as I can. It will be a single CR 10 Bebilith.
Let me know if you see anything wrong, screwy, or stupid with the PCs above and I'll make edits before we start fighting.
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I will come back when I have more than just a fuzzy memory to go on, but I believe the horse's hooves are secondary natural attacks; meaning they take a -5 to attack rolls when used in a full attack and only receive half the bonus from both their strength modifier and power attack.
Edit: I believe they are specifically called out as secondary natural attacks in the Druid's nature bond section on animal companions.
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I will come back when I have more than just a fuzzy memory to go on, but I believe the horse's hooves are secondary natural attacks; meaning they take a -5 to attack rolls when used in a full attack and only receive half the bonus from both their strength modifier and power attack.
Edit: I believe they are specifically called out as secondary natural attacks in the Druid's nature bond section on animal companions.
The entry for horse says that they cease to be secondary when the mount is combat trained. As Samurai mounts start combat trained they also start with 3 primary attacks.
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The entry for horse says that they cease to be secondary when the mount is combat trained.
You've done a classic cavalier/druid mistake- looking at the horse's stats in the bestiary instead of the Druid's animal companion section. See here-
Note that the horse entry specifies the horse is combat trained; but the hooves remaining secondary natural attack remains. You can reduce the penalties to -2 instead of -5 with multiattack, but the nasty 1/2 strength to damage rolls (as well as a decreased power attack ratio) hurts the hooves.
Edit: This horse gets multiattack at 9th level samurai anyway; but the damage rolls and attack rolls are still wrong.
This should actually be really good, I eagerly await the start.
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It list hooves as secondary attacks for the 1st level version, the horse doesn't get "combat trained" until level 4th (and only if you want, there is an alternative benefit for all companions).
The entry for horse says that they cease to be secondary when the mount is combat trained.You've done a classic cavalier/druid mistake- looking at the horse's stats in the bestiary instead of the Druid's animal companion section. See here-
Note that the horse entry specifies the horse is combat trained; but the hooves remaining secondary natural attack remains. You can reduce the penalties to -2 instead of -5 with multiattack, but the nasty 1/2 strength to damage rolls (as well as a decreased power attack ratio) hurts the hooves.
Roger, thanks for the clear up!
All good. Except for a samurai using a SHIELD! Come on Paizo guys?! Samurai with shield? Really?! =D
Sorry for the delay guys. I'm a bit under the weather. If the fever goes away I'll get the Bebilith in today.
Disappointed as I am, health comes first.
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Get well.Assuming that you've got flu, you may want to know that there are two dominant strains of flu virus this year, and at least one of them tends to cause nasty complications. We've had whole departments put to bed this year, and fevers going up to 40 degrees centigrade.
So, make sure that you're well first.
Best of luck,
Ruemere
Oy. That's no joke. Luckily, I seem to have gotten the watered down version. I think. Anyway, you guys have waited long enough.
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CR 10 – Bebilith
Initiative will go Bebilith, Sam, Kato.
Bebilith opts to move forward and attack (randomized) Horace (13) and bites the horse but a good roll on Mounted Combat (19) negates the hit.
Sam and Horace take a total defense action then move forward and to one side of the Bebilith provoking an AoO against (randomized) Sam which misses (2).
Kato moves to a flanking position and power sneaks the Bebilith (11), hitting and dealing 35 damage after DR (115 remains) and 1 Str damage. Kato uses Invisible Blade to...you know...go invisible.
The Bebilith is pretty well pissed now but can’t attack the invisible Kato. Launching a full attack against Sam (10,3,19) the Bebilith hits with a claw which does not confirm its threat (9) and deals 11 damage (92 remains).
Sam full attacks including a shield bash. He hits twice with his katana (14,4,20) and with his shield (10). The threat confirms (10) and his strikes do a total of 30 damage (85 remains). DR10 is no friggin joke people. Horace only connects with one hoof (4,8,15) dealing 6 damage (79 remains for Bebilith).
What do you suppose the chances of Kato doing 79 damage are? Here’s hoping they’re good. Kato uses a Ki point for an extra attack to improve those odds. He hits thrice (15,12,6) and deals 101 damage. The Bebilith dies.
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OK, so that was surprisingly awesome. I expected it to go way worse. The combination of Sam’s defensiveness and Kato’s greater invisibility really did the Bebilith in. I really love Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade. I think they should definitely still be options for the Ninja, and good ones. But they do seem ass unbalanced.
I see a lot of people talking about reducing the duration and upping the cost of these abilities. Those might be solutions. It may also be that the Ki pool is too large. However, I'd be against lowing the size of the Ki pool since it allow the class to be much more dynamic than the Rogue. The most powerful abilities should be the ones penalized.
In any case, Sam gets healed for 9 bringing him to 101.
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Edit: In yet another mad spat of stupidity I managed to run the average difficulty fight first. I'm really, quite intelligent most of the time, I assure you.
The next fight will be the Easy encounter. Two CR 7 Young Black Dragons.
What do you suppose the chances of Kato doing 79 damage are? Here’s hoping they’re good. Kato uses a Ki point for an extra attack to improve those odds. He hits thrice (15,12,6) and deals 101 damage. The Bebilith dies.
wow.
Hey Devs, look at this.
Show me a rogue that can do this.
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In fairness to the Rogue, show me the Ninja that can disable Magic Traps. And it's not as though invisibility or greater invisibility is the sole province of Ninjas. A Rogue can get invisible in every combat with a caster buddy.
Of course, having said that, a single dip in Rogue lets a Ninja get Trapfinding and not needing a caster to help you out saves on the quite powerful actions and resources of the party casters.
Kato does a good bit of damage. If Sam had been challenging his full attack (and Horace's) would have dealt 76 damage, nearly as much as Kato and with more speed and AC. Both of these classes are real solid.
In fairness to the Rogue, show me the Ninja that can disable Magic Traps. And it's not as though invisibility or greater invisibility is the sole province of Ninjas. A Rogue can get invisible in every combat with a caster buddy.
Of course, having said that, a single dip in Rogue lets a Ninja get Trapfinding and not needing a caster to help you out saves on the quite powerful actions and resources of the party casters.
Except that a Ninja can't multiclass into Rogue, since it's an alternate Rogue. It would be like taking Rogue twice just to double the first level benefits.
Except that a Ninja can't multiclass into Rogue, since it's an alternate Rogue. It would be like taking Rogue twice just to double the first level benefits.In fairness to the Rogue, show me the Ninja that can disable Magic Traps. And it's not as though invisibility or greater invisibility is the sole province of Ninjas. A Rogue can get invisible in every combat with a caster buddy.
Of course, having said that, a single dip in Rogue lets a Ninja get Trapfinding and not needing a caster to help you out saves on the quite powerful actions and resources of the party casters.
no actually you can't do that, however you can take another class from the APG archetypes that can.
two trapfinding is irrelevant with light steps... which means a ninja can avoid all location based trigger traps
Lastly the comment about a caster buddy... seriously? what wizard wants to recast invisibility every round or once at all? or waste a high level spell on a better form? when as a swift action ninjas can do it and then full attack. not to mention the fact that mister rogue then becomes wasteful of resources and counter productive.
Seriously after seeing this I am wondering why you are trying to say the rogue is not significantly beaten by the ninja.
that much damage nearly beats a fighter of that level, let alone a rogue.
EDIT: btw your comment that 76 damage is even in the ball park range of the 3 digit number kato put up is staggering. Thats a 3 to 4 hit dice kill range difference, not even in the same ballpark of close to each other.
two trapfinding is irrelevant with light steps... which means a ninja can avoid all location based trigger traps
(Pictures the ninja bypassing the flamestrike trap which then is triggered on the rest of the party)
Nice!
What do you suppose the chances of Kato doing 79 damage are? Here’s hoping they’re good. Kato uses a Ki point for an extra attack to improve those odds. He hits thrice (15,12,6) and deals 101 damage. The Bebilith dies.wow.
Hey Devs, look at this.
Show me a rogue that can do this.
Any one with Boots of Speed. Which, grantedly, the Ninja can also get. The extra attack with Ki points seems a bit much.
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Easy – Two CR7 – Young Black Dragons
Initiative order will be Sam, Dragons, Kato.
Sam challenges Dragon 2, moves forward 30’ and attacks it. He hits (9) and deals 29 damage (47 remains for Dragon 2). Horace misses.
Black Dragon 2 takes a 5’ Step to the Pc’s right and breathes acid at the two of them. Horace fails his save and takes 20 damage (43 remains). The other two both save with 20’s and take only 10 damage (91 for Sam and 70 for Kato). Black Dragon 1 also takes a 5’ step and breathes acid. Horace is unlucky and takes the full 22 damage again (2) (21 remains). Sam saves (12) and Kato saves (5) taking 11 damage (80 for Sam and 59 for Kato).
Kato uses Invisible Blade and moves forward 30’ and attacks Black Dragon 1, the only one he can easily reach. He power sneaks and hits (16) for 45 damage (31 remains) and 1 Str damage.
Sam full attacks Black Dragon 2 and this twice (13,20,8) and confirms the threat dealing 27 and 52 damage, respectively. Dicing the dragon. Horace power attacks Dragon 1 and hits with one hoof (5,13,5) dealing 17 damage (14 remains).
Black Dragon 1 knows where Kato is but doesn’t want to suffer the miss chance and so attacks Sam, who killed his brother. His bite connects but all other attacks bounce from the Samurai’s armor (17,7,9,1,8) and deals 9 damage (79 remains for Sam).
Kato power sneaks Black Dragon 1 (20,2) and confirms the crit (11) presumably doing so much damage that the dragon explodes. Or implodes. Or something horrendous. There’s definitely a lot of blood.
wow.
Hey Devs, look at this.
Show me a rogue that can do this.
Normally I would agree and encourage this but the devs seem positive the Rogue is not underpowered. So... this may just may make them weaken the Ninja...
Normally I would agree and encourage this but the devs seem positive the Rogue is not underpowered. So... this may just may make them weaken the Ninja...
wow.
Hey Devs, look at this.
Show me a rogue that can do this.
I have faith that talents can turn the rogue around.
Turn tricks into talents, make ki pool re use once per days, elimintae the extra attack bull s!$$, and presto balance can ensue.
Basically what makes the ninja so much better is not the ki pool, its the ki pool fueling talents that makes them over powered.
The only qualms I have is once per day may not be enough for some of those talents (vanish is nice but once per day makes it useless)
I have faith that talents can turn the rogue around.
Turn tricks into talents, make ki pool re use once per days, elimintae the extra attack bull s@&!, and presto balance can ensue.
Basically what makes the ninja so much better is not the ki pool, its the ki pool fueling talents that makes them over powered.
The only qualms I have is once per day may not be enough for some of those talents (vanish is nice but once per day makes it useless)
Those changes only sound like balance between the rogue and the ninja, not the ninja and the rest of the game
I have faith that talents can turn the rogue around.Turn tricks into talents, make ki pool re use once per days, elimintae the extra attack bull s*~~, and presto balance can ensue.
Basically what makes the ninja so much better is not the ki pool, its the ki pool fueling talents that makes them over powered.
The only qualms I have is once per day may not be enough for some of those talents (vanish is nice but once per day makes it useless)
See, I am of the opinion that the solution to this is to make the more "broken" tricks, cost more, thereby limiting their use. Your average Vanishing Trick invisibility swift action Ninja will use it more sparingly if its costing him 2 ki each time compared to 1 ki when his pool is only 8.
Those changes only sound like balance between the rogue and the ninja, not the ninja and the rest of the game
I have faith that talents can turn the rogue around.
Turn tricks into talents, make ki pool re use once per days, elimintae the extra attack bull s@&!, and presto balance can ensue.
Basically what makes the ninja so much better is not the ki pool, its the ki pool fueling talents that makes them over powered.
The only qualms I have is once per day may not be enough for some of those talents (vanish is nice but once per day makes it useless)
Tell it to the developers who said the rogue isnt getting changed.
Boosting the talents for both helps both I dont see how it hurts anyone.
The extra attack is just unneccesary and as you can see above they do more damage than a damn fighter of the same level.
Sounds like you just want the ninja, because as seen above it is obviously a little better than anticipated (the DPR is insane according to this and other playtests and its usually due to the extra attack)
EDIT: I dont know if you are getting the wrong impression but I LIKE NINJA TRICKS, i just want them to be available to all rogue types instead of just ninjas.
See, I am of the opinion that the solution to this is to make the more "broken" tricks, cost more, thereby limiting their use. Your average Vanishing Trick invisibility swift action Ninja will use it more sparingly if its costing him 2 ki each time compared to 1 ki when his pool is only 8.
I have faith that talents can turn the rogue around.Turn tricks into talents, make ki pool re use once per days, elimintae the extra attack bull s*~~, and presto balance can ensue.
Basically what makes the ninja so much better is not the ki pool, its the ki pool fueling talents that makes them over powered.
The only qualms I have is once per day may not be enough for some of those talents (vanish is nice but once per day makes it useless)
That could work.
Either way, make it a talent not a trick and just make a cost value for tricks ninjas want to activate after the normal uses are up.
Tell it to the developers who said the rogue isnt getting changed.
Boosting the talents for both helps both I dont see how it hurts anyone.
The extra attack is just unneccesary and as you can see above they do more damage than a damn fighter of the same level.
Sounds like you just want the ninja, because as seen above it is obviously a little better than anticipated (the DPR is insane according to this and other playtests and its usually due to the extra attack)
EDIT: I dont know if you are getting the wrong impression but I LIKE NINJA TRICKS, i just want them to be available to all rogue types instead of just ninjas.
The ninja has the same sneak attack dice as the rogue and last I checked the rogues DPR doesn't sky-rocket because of one extra attack (yes its a boost but fighters can be double the rogues output) someone was rolling high.
If you want to make the ninja tricks rogue talents then by all means do it, but don't insult people by making a ninja class that has no features of its own.
I have seen what the developers said and I almost feel like giving up on a ninja class, they have stated it will be watered down to make it worse then the rogue, in other words the 5th level ninja will be laughed at by a 1st level commoner.
Its not that I don't see some of the tweaks needed but the more we point them out the weaker this watered down class is going to get.
And because you mentioned it, yes I would like a ninja-y class, but powerful or not I want it to feel like a ninja.
The ninja has the same sneak attack dice as the rogue and last I checked the rogues DPR doesn't sky-rocket because of one extra attack (yes its a boost but fighters can be double the rogues output) someone was rolling high.If you want to make the ninja tricks rogue talents then by all means do it, but don't insult people by making a ninja class that has no features of its own.
It has ki pool, it has poison use, it has light steps. those are class features enough. Plus the weapon proficiencies.
Tricks are not class features, they are selective abilities that only a ninja can have but its parent class cant have. Not to mention all of those talents I can see a rogue doing, but only a ninja gets to because he is a ninja. The wall just creates work so I dont want to hear the "most of the tricks will probably be rogue talents" thing, because if that is the case, why have the wall at all?
Sneak attack with an extra attack DOES boost things considerable, not to mention if he is dishing shurikens and that extra attack (for 5 attacks 4 at full BAB)
if all five hit that means his sneak attack dice is dealt 5 times.
blaming the playtest for high rolls on dice for a kill is hardly fair.
Show me a fighter that can dish 100+ damage with no crit?
The extra attack is just unneccesary and as you can see above they do more damage than a damn fighter of the same level.
To be fair, an Inquisitor does even more damage than the Ninja and at level 12 laughably more ( around 200 DPR ).
The extra attack is just unneccesary and as you can see above they do more damage than a damn fighter of the same level.To be fair, an Inquisitor does even more damage than the Ninja and at level 12 laughably more ( around 200 DPR ).
please show me how? 200 DPR sounds like it would have people up in arms about the inquisitor since fighters cannot do that much.
I am talking nigh crits (the ninja above did 100+ without crits)
The extra attack is just unneccesary and as you can see above they do more damage than a damn fighter of the same level.To be fair, an Inquisitor does even more damage than the Ninja and at level 12 laughably more ( around 200 DPR ).please show me how? 200 DPR sounds like it would have people up in arms about the inquisitor since fighters cannot do that much.
I am talking nigh crits (the ninja above did 100+ without crits)
So am I.
Okay, here goes, archer Inquisitor lvl 12, with really, really mediocre equipment. I am not bothering to stat out his skills and the rest of the equip, because, hey, time. It's 01:24 a.m. as I write this sentence.
STR 14
DEX 23
CON 10
WIS 14
INT 10
CHA 10
Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse, Manyshot, Improved Initiative, Deadly Aim
Equip: +3 Composite Longbow ( +2 STR Adjusted ); Belt of Dexterity +4; Boots of Speed. I am not including Bracers of Archery in the budget, although those could still be added on, raising the attack bonus by one or two.
Attack: +9 BAB + 6 DEX + 3 Enhancement + 3 Judgement + 2 Bane + 4 Divine Power + 1 Haste - 2 Rapid Shot - 4 Deadly Aim = +22/+22/+22/+17
Damage: 1d8 + 2 ( STR ) + 3 Enhancement + 5 Judgement + 2 Bane + 4d6 Bane + 4 Divine Power + 8 Deadly Aim = 1d8 + 4d6 + 22 = 40 average damage per shot.
In a group, you need one round of prep: Move+Draw Weapon, activate Judgements, cast Divine Power, maybe activate Boots of Speed if needed for positioning ( move + swift + standard + free ). The next round you activate Bane as a swift action and full attack for up to 200 DPR ( due to Manyshot doubling the first hits damage... there are no modifiers Manyshot as written does not double for the Inquisitor ).
In a PvP situation, you first cast Greater Invisibility and move stealthily, then do the actions described above. Unless the Ninja has some possibility to see invisibility ( which the Inquisitor does have ), he is screwed.
It has ki pool, it has poison use, it has light steps. those are class features enough. Plus the weapon proficiencies.
Tricks are not class features, they are selective abilities that only a ninja can have but its parent class cant have. Not to mention all of those talents I can see a rogue doing, but only a ninja gets to because he is a ninja. The wall just creates work so I dont want to hear the "most of the tricks will probably be rogue talents" thing, because if that is the case, why have the wall at all?
Sneak attack with an extra attack DOES boost things considerable, not to mention if he is dishing shurikens and that extra attack (for 5 attacks 4 at full BAB)
if all five hit that means his sneak attack dice is dealt 5 times.
blaming the playtest for high rolls on dice for a kill is hardly fair.
Show me a fighter that can dish 100+ damage with no crit?
You just said you want to mix tricks and talents, that means the ninja's ki pool is a rogue feature that it is getting. A rogue archtype can get poison use and select ninja tricks (cause remember you made them talents) so thats not a ninja feature
So here is your ninja archtype
ninja:
At level (insert number here) ninja gets light steps.
Thanks thats sooo ninja xP
edit: how are 4 out of 5 of those shuriken at full BAB?
Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse, Manyshot, Improved Initiative, Deadly Aim.
Equip: +3 Composite Longbow ( +2 STR Adjusted ); Belt of Dexterity +4; Boots of Speed. I am not including Bracers of Archery in the budget, although those could still be added on, raising the attack bonus by one or two.
Attack: +9 BAB + 6 DEX + 3 Enhancement + 3 Judgement + 2 Bane + 4 Divine Power + 1 Haste - 2 Rapid Shot - 4 Deadly Aim = +22/+22/+22/+17
Damage: 1d8 + 2 ( STR ) + 3 Enhancement + 5 Judgement + 2 Bane + 4d6 Bane + 4 Divine Power + 8 Deadly Aim = 1d8 + 4d6 + 22 = 40 average damage per shot.
Many shot does not stack with rapid shot.
Not to mention the spells you cast on yourself a ninja could just as easily have cast on him by another party member AND save time in acting. so divine power is not really fair to add in because BOTH could have that (as well as a fighter).
Also your "one round of preperation clause" means the ninja can do more damage than you, because round two comes by and he has already done his second set of attacks for another 100+ damage.
40 average damage per shot even if all four attacks were to hit that only makes 160 points.
Also your Deadly aim is off. You only get to do a -1 for every 4 base attack. You have +9 which means that thats only a +6.
that brings it down to 32 per shot as I see it now.
Also if you want to get down to "gear" equip the ninja with some "boots of speed" because that stacks with his extra attack.
So I rest my case. A caster with two rounds time, and boots of speed with a +3 weapon with a strength mod and divine favor on him is on par with a ninja using his innate abilities.
Ok. you got me lol.
EDIT: also about your comment of seeing invisibility look at the Trick See the Unseen. lol. not to mention the ninja can invisibility as well.
Oh and the ninja could also have taken rapid shot. Thanks for pointing that out.
You just said you want to mix tricks and talents, that means the ninja's ki pool is a rogue feature that it is getting. A rogue archtype can get poison use and select ninja tricks (cause remember you made them talents) so thats not a ninja featureSo here is your ninja archtype
ninja:
At level (insert number here) ninja gets light steps.
Thanks thats sooo ninja xPedit: how are 4 out of 5 of those shuriken at full BAB?
Um ki pool can stay. I didnt say trash it, just let it do what it normally does and have it re use talents once per day.
They also get no trace and poison use and exotic weapon proficiencies and light steps as well.
You want them to have their own talents because rogues dont deserve them or what?
because all the attacks are at full base attack with the -2 for using the shuriken talent (which is essentially rapid shot but 2 bonus attacks) counting in the bonus for likely being invisible and full attacking... ouch.
Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Finesse, Manyshot, Improved Initiative, Deadly Aim.
Equip: +3 Composite Longbow ( +2 STR Adjusted ); Belt of Dexterity +4; Boots of Speed. I am not including Bracers of Archery in the budget, although those could still be added on, raising the attack bonus by one or two.
Attack: +9 BAB + 6 DEX + 3 Enhancement + 3 Judgement + 2 Bane + 4 Divine Power + 1 Haste - 2 Rapid Shot - 4 Deadly Aim = +22/+22/+22/+17
Damage: 1d8 + 2 ( STR ) + 3 Enhancement + 5 Judgement + 2 Bane + 4d6 Bane + 4 Divine Power + 8 Deadly Aim = 1d8 + 4d6 + 22 = 40 average damage per shot.
Many shot does not stack with rapid shot.
Yes it does.
Manyshot
When making a full-attack action with a bow,
your first attack fires two arrows.
Rapid Shot
When making a full-attack action with a ranged
weapon, you can fire one additional time this round.
Not mutually exclusive, otherwise haste wouldn't work with Manyshot or Rapid Shot either. Rapid Shot just makes you use a ranged weapon; Manyshot specifies a bow.
Not to mention the spells you cast on yourself a ninja could just as easily have cast on him by another party member AND save time in acting. so divine power is not really fair to add in because BOTH could have that (as well as a fighter).
Spell.
Divine Power
School evocation; Level cleric 4, inquisitor 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Range personal
Target you
Only the inquis can benefit from this.
Unrelated to the argument, you brought this up! I'd forgotten.
This additional attack is not cumulative
with similar effects, such as haste or weapons with the speed
special ability.
I wonder.
Many shot does not stack with rapid shot.
Unless that has been errataed, it does.
You can make an additional ranged attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged
weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of
your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using
Rapid Shot.
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot,
base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow,
your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both
arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak
attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack.
Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high
Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage
bonuses, such as a ranger’s favored enemy bonus. Damage
reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
Nothing in there that says they don't stack. They don't use separate standard actions, but are both described as being part of a full-attack.
Not to mention the spells you cast on yourself a ninja could just as easily have cast on him by another party member AND save time in acting. so divine power is not really fair to add in because BOTH could have that (as well as a fighter).
Uh, yeah. I thought we were comparing the classes to each other, not "classes with the benefit of having been buffed by someone else".
Also your "one round of preperation clause" means the ninja can do more damage than you, because round two comes by and he has already done his second set of attacks for another 100+ damage.
Unless the Ninja starts out standing right next to the opponent, he also has to move into position. Meaning he will do at maximum one attack, unless he somehow magically gets Pounce.
40 average damage per shot even if all four attacks were to hit that only makes 160 points.
Again, Manyshot and Rapid Shot do stack, unless that got errataed.
Also your Deadly aim is off. You only get to do a -1 for every 4 base attack. You have +9 which means that thats only a +6.
No, it really isn't.
You can make exceptionally deadly ranged attacks by
pinpointing a foe’s weak spot, at the expense of making
the attack less likely to succeed.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all
ranged attack rolls to gain a +2 bonus on all ranged damage
rolls. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every
+4 thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus
to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this
feat before making an attack roll and its effects last until
your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch
attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
As you can see, the penalty/bonus starts at level one and gets higher every four levels, meaning at level twelve we are at -4/+8.
that brings it down to 32 per shot as I see it now.
You see it wrongly, though.
Also if you want to get down to "gear" equip the ninja with some "boots of speed" because that stacks with his extra attack.
As of level 12, Boots of Speed are only there for the +30 feet movement, and +1 to initiative and attack bonuses. The number of attacks stays the same, because Divine Power also gives you one extra attack ( which doesn't stack with Haste attack ).
So I rest my case. A caster with two rounds time, and boots of speed with a +3 weapon with a strength mod and divine favor on him is on par with a ninja using his innate abilities.
Ok. you got me lol.
Casting is also an "innate ability" of the Inquisitor. And, uh, it's, in a pure damage comparison, one round of prep and positioning, versus the Ninjas one round of positioning and single attack.
EDIT: also about your comment of seeing invisibility look at the Trick See the Unseen. lol. not to mention the ninja can invisibility as well.
Ah, yeah, I forgot about that. Okay, that complicates things up for the Inquisitor, as he cannot kill the Ninja anymore with impunity. I was up and up to offer to have the Inquisitor fight against both the Ninja and Samurai, but that kinda screws his chances up.
Well, you got one right. Congrats.
*edit* Ninjaed by Ice Titan. Damn! :p
I'm going to bed, see you guys tomorrow.
stuff
You were right about alot I was just saying if you are going to count spell buffs, the ninja can have those as well.
Haste stacks with a ninja's attacks so if you are going to throw that in Boots of haste are fairly cheap.
Also you have deadly aim wrong. Inquisitors do not get full BAB so that means ONLY a +6 to damage a -3 to attack. read it again, it is not based on level, base attack.
I do not know how many shot works with weapon based bonus (I was under the impression flaming only applied once so I dont see why other magical bonuses would)
Also if you give the ninja the boots you have (which stacks with ninja attacks) make him a halfling with the stealthy shooting talent (rogue talent) and the replacement trait he can literally just stealth and snipe with shurikens to his hearts content.
My point is the above ninja in the playtest is doing fairly well and he ISNT trying to break it like you are.
also you did get the damage wrong because as I count that STILL is only 4 attacks ( two standard, divine favor and many shot) you do not have 3 attacks from BAB.
Damn, now I am too amped up to sleep, I want to build that Inquisitor for direct comparison. :p
You were right about alot I was just saying if you are going to count spell buffs, the ninja can have those as well.
Unless he can cast them himself, I wouldn't count them for a direct comparison.
Haste stacks with a ninja's attacks so if you are going to throw that in Boots of haste are fairly cheap.
True enough.
Also you have deadly aim wrong. Inquisitors do not get full BAB so that means ONLY a +6 to damage a -3 to attack. read it again, it is not based on level, base attack.
Also true, I did misread that part. Apologies.
I do not know how many shot works with weapon based bonus (I was under the impression flaming only applied once so I dont see why other magical bonuses would)
Like it says in the description, precision-based damage doesn't double. Flaming would indeed double, because it is not precision-based. Neither are Judgements or Bane.
Also if you give the ninja the boots you have (which stacks with ninja attacks) make him a halfling with the stealthy shooting talent (rogue talent) and the replacement trait he can literally just stealth and snipe with shurikens to his hearts content.
Works the same with the Inquisitor, so I don't know what your argument is here.
My point is the above ninja in the playtest is doing fairly well and he ISNT trying to break it like you are.
I am not breaking him at all. That is how a poorly equipped Inquisitor plays at level twelve. For a few rounds per day, that is. But those are normally enough to utterly destroy the BBEG.
also you did get the damage wrong because as I count that STILL is only 4 attacks ( two standard, divine favor and many shot) you do not have 3 attacks from BAB.
Rapid Shot. Attack one = Haste/Divine Power, attack two = Rapid Shot, attack three = normal attack, attack four = second iterative attack. Plus double damage from Manyshot.
Level eleven Inquisitor coming up, fully statted. The damage will be quite lower, though, because level 12 is really a big jump forward for the Inquisitor.
statting up level 11 inquisitor
Make a thread for this out of yuenglings playtest and I will post a level 11 build halfing.
I feel like we have thread jacked his enough.
Dangit! I had a whole thing.
I don't want to spoil the thread though, so I'll wait.
Good data, by the way.
statting up level 11 inquisitorMake a thread for this out of yuenglings playtest and I will post a level 11 build halfing.
I feel like we have thread jacked his enough.
Since I plan on pitting him against the Ninja and Samurai, separately at first, I think this thread is good enough. ;)
I'll have to do it tomorrow, though, fatigue *is* finally getting to me. G'night.
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You guys are hilarious.
I look forward to seeing the Inquisitor v. Ninja fight. For my part, I think the Inquisitor will win easily. One casting of Invisibility Purge and you'll have 11 minutes of a 55' sphere of invisibility free awesome. Unless the Ninja can evade that area for 11 minutes he'll be in trouble.
You guys are hilarious.
I look forward to seeing the Inquisitor v. Ninja fight. For my part, I think the Inquisitor will win easily. One casting of Invisibility Purge and you'll have 11 minutes of a 55' sphere of invisibility free awesome. Unless the Ninja can evade that area for 11 minutes he'll be in trouble.
I think it would be kinda lame to pull that old hat out of a bag. But I guess my ninja will have to invest in some sort of dispell magic wand since we are going to metagame an invisibility purge spell into an inquisitor that just so happens to be fighting something that uses invisibility.
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I think it would be kinda lame to pull that old hat out of a bag. But I guess my ninja will have to invest in some sort of dispell magic wand since we are going to metagame an invisibility purge spell into an inquisitor that just so happens to be fighting something that uses invisibility.
My Inquisitor had Invisibility Purge and made use of it several times throughout our CoCT campaign. I don't think it's metagame-y at all. It's a save free way to get rid of a real trouble maker of an ability that has a large radius and good duration. I wouldn't be surprised if most level 11 Inquisitors had it.
Hell, lets say the Inquisitor doesn't have Purge. He'd probably still have See Invisibility.
The fact of the matter is that any non caster is going to have a hell of a time against a caster with a decently varied list. There are just so many good spells that I don't think any non-caster is going to wow me against an Inquisitor in its latter levels.
I think it would be kinda lame to pull that old hat out of a bag. But I guess my ninja will have to invest in some sort of dispell magic wand since we are going to metagame an invisibility purge spell into an inquisitor that just so happens to be fighting something that uses invisibility.My Inquisitor had Invisibility Purge and made use of it several times throughout our CoCT campaign. I don't think it's metagame-y at all. It's a save free way to get rid of a real trouble maker of an ability that has a large radius and good duration. I wouldn't be surprised if most level 11 Inquisitors had it.
Hell, lets say the Inquisitor doesn't have Purge. He'd probably still have See Invisibility.
The fact of the matter is that any non caster is going to have a hell of a time against a caster with a decently varied list. There are just so many good spells that I don't think any non-caster is going to wow me against an Inquisitor in its latter levels.
I suppose there might be some truth to that but lets just see what happens :)
I assume standard wealth by level, 20 point buy and all that nonsense
since its your thread yuengling why dont you decide the specifications
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Challenging – One CR11 – Elder Water Elemental
In a shocking reversal of pretty much every initiative order since level 6, the initiative order will go Kato, Elemental, Sam.
Kato does his best to figure out some stuff about elementals. No good. Not knowing that it cannot be sneak attacked he uses Invisible Blade (which at least prevents him having to bother with the AoO), moves forward 30’ and power attacks. He hits (6) and deals 22 damage after DR (130 remains).
The Elemental full attacks with power attack the space it knows Kato to be in. One slam (15,2) comes near but is defeated by miss chance.
Sam challenges the Elemental, “I’ll pop you like a water balloon!” and moves forward and to the side of the Elemental (not knowing it can’t be flanked) and takes an AoO for his trouble (15) taking 29 damage (66 remains). Chastened, he fights defensively and just barely hits (8) for 16 (114 remains). Horace fights defensively too and his hoof misses (9).
Kato uses another Ki point for an extra attack and goes to town. He hits with all three because of the serious loss of armor vs the invisible Kato (15,15,10) and Kato deals 48 damage (66 remains).
The Elemental would still like to hand Kato’s arse to him but knows that Sam is the easier target. It hits Sam once (3,11) for 33 damage (33 remains).
Sam full attacks including his shield knowing its pretty now or never for him. He hits once with his katana (2,17,1) and would threaten if elementals were subject to crits. He also hits with his shield. They do a combined 28 damage (38 remains).
Kato needs to do some serious damage here so he uses another ki point for another extra attack. He once again hits with all three attacks (14,3,20) and deals 58 damage eliminating the Elemental.
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OK, so challenging is challenging. It was actually a pretty good thing that Kato was invisible because that damn thing is brutal. Ninja's suck against stuff that can't be sneaked unless, like I did, they blow through Ki. TWF sword and board Samurai get boned very seriously against DR10/-.
If I got a chance to remake Sam for this I think I'd up his AC to 30 or so. It's nice that he has a sweet sword but he really doesn't need to do much damage, just suck the hits while Kato has forcible intercourse with bad guys.
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The hard encounter will be against 2 Kalavakus demons from the Bestiary 2. Can our heroes survive against two hasted demons with DR10 who can disarm Kato on a 5 and Sam on a 7? I'm betting no. I'm betting they are in trouble.
Well, I just woke up, I'll need some hours to get stuff done and then will present my level 11 Inquisitor of Besmara challenger. I don't know if "Wands of Dispel Magic" should be allowed, because I already refrained from buying stuff like Dust of Disappearance. Taking See Invisibility is not metagamey at all, it's like every good inquisitor should be built, IMO.
Also, was thinking of playing against Yuenglings characters. :p
Some questions: What is the size of the arena, at what distance do the combatants start, are there any obstacles to hide behind?
And one rules question: My assumption is that Besmara would give the Tactics sub-domain. In case you two agree, would the "Seize the Initiative" power be applicable to oneself?
roll for initiative, you can grant one ally within 30 feet
the ability to roll twice and take either result. This
decision is made before results are revealed. You can use
this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your
Wisdom modifier.