So I had a nice write up and then lost it, joy...
There is a lot of mudslinging going on right now with the Ninja so I'm gonna try and condense this with my own thoughts, which seem to be in agreement with others.
The Ninja right now is like a Wizard. It has the potential to be broken to game ruining levels. But so can the Wizard. So do we nerf Wizards? It ultimately comes down to the player and if they choose to abuse the cheese they have access to. With that said...
1. Remove the free uses of ki abilities.
I think this is self-explanatory.
2. Limit the uses of Forgotten Trick to maybe 1 use a day per 3 or 4 Ninja levels.
Forgotten Trick is kind of broken, won't lie. I feel it should be limited to more of an "OHSHI-!" contingency, like you're falling from a great height and to prevent your death, you suddenly remember Feather Fall. I feel that is how you should use this ability, not for cheese.
3. Increase the cost of Vanishing Trick/Invisible Blade to 2 ki. Reduce the duration of Invisible Blade to half Ninja level.
These are two extremely powerful abilities. I feel increasing their cost, and reducing the rounds of greater invisibility will help considerably in regulating their use.
4. Ghost Step should be changed to 2ft. per level and made a standard action.
So concludes the fixes.
The one fix everyone is clamoring for is that the Ninja be weakened to be equal to the Rogue and I absolutely can not agree with this. The Rogue is underpowered. We all know this. So why drag the Ninja down?
Buff the Rogue, don't nerf the Ninja.
leave as is
Why though? What I suggest is just small little things that in the grand scheme of things are merely power tweaks to make them play better with the other classes. By no means would what I suggest nerf a Ninja to being a Rogue.
Also, after playing a Ninja earlier tonight, I feel that Shadow Clone should be weakened as well. Being able to cast Mirrow Image exactly as an equal level arcane caster seems much for only 1 ki.
So the idea I feel should be to weaken it somehow, a weaker version of Mirrow Image, only usable by the Ninja. Perhaps cut the minute duration to rounds or removing the bonus clones from level.
If this is "ultimate combat" and if this only contains 3 new classes (one of which has its Progress Level out of whack), I fail to see how it's "ultimate combat".
I think (and hope) that we'll see in that book some new abilities/feats/archetypes/weapons/armors/etc. for those combat-oriented classes.
If this is "ultimate combat" and if this only contains 3 new classes (one of which has its Progress Level out of whack), I fail to see how it's "ultimate combat".
I think (and hope) that we'll see in that book some new abilities/feats/archetypes/weapons/armors/etc. for those combat-oriented classes.
It is fairly common knowledge that the classes amount for a mere fraction of the 300+ pages contained.
leave as isWhy though? What I suggest is just small little things that in the grand scheme of things are merely power tweaks to make them play better with the other classes. By no means would what I suggest nerf a Ninja to being a Rogue.
Why exactly do we need to nerf the Ninja at all?
Also, after playing a Ninja earlier tonight, I feel that Shadow Clone should be weakened as well. Being able to cast Mirrow Image exactly as an equal level arcane caster seems much for only 1 ki.
So the idea I feel should be to weaken it somehow, a weaker version of Mirrow Image, only usable by the Ninja. Perhaps cut the minute duration to rounds or removing the bonus clones from level.
Yeah, because melee doesn't ever get nice things, only arcane casters. God forbid melee ever get something good, they could get out of their ghetto and we cannot have that! <sarcasm>
Also, after playing a Ninja earlier tonight, I feel that Shadow Clone should be weakened as well. Being able to cast Mirrow Image exactly as an equal level arcane caster seems much for only 1 ki.
So the idea I feel should be to weaken it somehow, a weaker version of Mirrow Image, only usable by the Ninja. Perhaps cut the minute duration to rounds or removing the bonus clones from level.
I don't get it. That stuff works, so must be nerfed?
If this is "ultimate combat" and if this only contains 3 new classes (one of which has its Progress Level out of whack), I fail to see how it's "ultimate combat".
I think (and hope) that we'll see in that book some new abilities/feats/archetypes/weapons/armors/etc. for those combat-oriented classes.
Wow. I suggest you go and click on the Ultimate Combat product and read what it promises. Loooads of new archetypes, hundreds of feats, new weapons and armors, etc
It makes absolutely no mention of new spells last I checked.
If this is "ultimate combat" and if this only contains 3 new classes (one of which has its Progress Level out of whack), I fail to see how it's "ultimate combat".
I think (and hope) that we'll see in that book some new abilities/feats/archetypes/weapons/armors/etc. for those combat-oriented classes.
Wow. I suggest you go and click on the Ultimate Combat product and read what it promises. Loooads of new archetypes, hundreds of feats, new weapons and armors, etc
It makes absolutely no mention of new spells last I checked.
I think James said somewhere around here that there will be combat-related spells in it.
I don't get it. That stuff works, so must be nerfed?Also, after playing a Ninja earlier tonight, I feel that Shadow Clone should be weakened as well. Being able to cast Mirrow Image exactly as an equal level arcane caster seems much for only 1 ki.
So the idea I feel should be to weaken it somehow, a weaker version of Mirrow Image, only usable by the Ninja. Perhaps cut the minute duration to rounds or removing the bonus clones from level.
It works too good for the small cost paid, doubly so if the first one is free as per RAW. Shadow Clone before the start of every encounter? The survivability granted by it is simply far too high for the low cost. So rather than increase the cost, I feel it is better to simply weaken the power to be more in line with the cost.
As said, I would not call what I am recommending to be nerfs, they are tweaks to essentially make a Ninja think a little before he goes spending his Ki willy nilly.
That stuff costs ki. Ki management is not trivial. Unless you invest in Charisma and Ki.
Shadow clone in particular has no free use.
That stuff costs ki. Ki management is not trivial. Unless you invest in Charisma and Ki.
Shadow clone in particular has no free use.
Touche on the no free use. So many of the tricks have it I figured it may too, doesn't change anything though.
Well it depends on the kind of Ninja you make of course, the build I used focused on strength and charisma and turned out quite well, enough so that I really never even had to use any. Was it easy encounters? More or less, and due to his untimely death I was unable to use it during the subsequent real dungeon but I'm doubtful I'd of been starved on Ki had the Ninja been alive to fight.
But to ignore Cha is extremely foolish. From the beginning you really need to choose str or dex, and then proceed to get cha up to a nice level. From there, work on the rest, course by that point you're gonna have to dump something, I chose int, but such happens with a a MAD class. Shadow Clone however can downplay the importance of dex for a str build, and even con due to the massive survivability it grants.
But to ignore Cha is extremely foolish. From the beginning you really need to choose str or dex, and then proceed to get cha up to a nice level. From there, work on the rest, course by that point you're gonna have to dump something, I chose int, but such happens with a a MAD class. Shadow Clone however can downplay the importance of dex for a str build, and even con due to the massive survivability it grants.
The Ninja is still not a MAD class.
Human Ninja 15-point buy
STR 10
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 14
Perfectly viable.
That stuff costs ki. Ki management is not trivial. Unless you invest in Charisma and Ki.
Shadow clone in particular has no free use.
Touche on the no free use. So many of the tricks have it I figured it may too, doesn't change anything though.
...
Shadow Clone however can downplay the importance of dex for a str build, and even con due to the massive survivability it grants.
Mirror image is a fantastic spell for any melee lucky enough to have it, especially a midrange BAB class with d8 hp. It is probably a bit too strong, though, for the cost. A 2nd level wizard/sorcerer can't even cast 2nd level spells, and 2nd level ninja can "cast" a likely 2-4 times per day. Perhaps it should start with 1 clone and grow from there, based on level.
Shadow Clone (Su) : The ninja can create 1d4 shadowy duplicates of herself that conceal her true location. This functions as mirror image, using the ninja’s level as her caster level. Using this ability is a standard action that uses up 1 ki point.
You only get at the most 4 clones at least that is how I take it in all other ways it works as mirror image. Heck you could end up with just one clone every time you do it. So why mess with it?
Have some of the ki uses use up 2 ki wouldn't it just be better to limit the amount of ki I mean its the same thing.
Shadow Clone (Su) : The ninja can create 1d4 shadowy duplicates of herself that conceal her true location. This functions as mirror image, using the ninja’s level as her caster level. Using this ability is a standard action that uses up 1 ki point.
You only get at the most 4 clones at least that is how I take it in all other ways it works as mirror image. Heck you could end up with just one clone every time you do it. So why mess with it?
Have some of the ki uses use up 2 ki wouldn't it just be better to limit the amount of ki I mean its the same thing.
Emphasis mine. That is how you get more than 4 images. of course you can read it both ways. All the playtests I have seen so far that mention shadow clones use the more open "same as spell" interpretation.
I also see how it can be both ways but I "think" don't know it was meant it functions in all other ways as a balancing tool. Obviously I could be wrong, though that is what I think.
Emphasis mine. That is how you get more than 4 images. of course you can read it both ways. All the playtests I have seen so far that mention shadow clones use the more open "same as spell" interpretation.Shadow Clone (Su) : The ninja can create 1d4 shadowy duplicates of herself that conceal her true location. This functions as mirror image, using the ninja’s level as her caster level. Using this ability is a standard action that uses up 1 ki point.
You only get at the most 4 clones at least that is how I take it in all other ways it works as mirror image. Heck you could end up with just one clone every time you do it. So why mess with it?
Have some of the ki uses use up 2 ki wouldn't it just be better to limit the amount of ki I mean its the same thing.
I complained about that unclear wording at the begin of the playtest, the devs chose not to clear it up. <shrug> We'll see how the second round will look.