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??????
I don't see how it affects game balance either way. Wis simply means higher Perception and, , , survival? Of course the ninja benefits more from Cha instead of Wis, but Wis makes sence since it's already been established. And, it just doesn't look right to me.
As for game balance, I don't think it matters all that much. All that matters is if people are having fun. I just want the option to have fun in my own way without having to houserule it. I don't think that's unreasonable.
It does matter. Perception is the most important skill in the game, especially for a scout/skill monkey type character. It also impacts Will saves, one of the Rogue/Ninja's glaring weaknesses. Plus there's Sense Motive, Survival, etc.
Wisdom is something that most Rogues (optimized Rogues at any rate) cannot ignore; they need a 10 or 12, and could definitely benefit from having it even higher, but there are more important abilities to worry about.
Charisma, on the other hand, does almost nothing for a Rogue. Personally, I find it really annoying that they get so little benefit from what should be an iconic Rogue stat, but that's the way the mechanics work, so optimized Rogues will dump it to an 8 or 7.
Ninjas, on the other hand, need at least a 12; that's 4-6 points less to spend on other stats, which translates to fewer hit points or skill points, or no power attack feat, or lower AC and reflex, or lower perception and Will.
Being able to use Wisdom for Ki is a notable mechanical boost. If you want to house rule it, go right ahead, it's your game, play it your way. But if you want to argue that the Playtest Rules should be changed, you have to account for the boost your change gives somehow.
Wisdom means Cleric/Ninja and Druid/Ninja. (And Monk/Ninja.)
Charisma means Ninja/Bard, Ninja/Sorcerer, Ninja/Paladin.
Those character concepts are far more interesting.
Personally, if I were to wish for anything, I'd wish that the core Rogue were more like the Ninja. All of those Charisma options might mean that Rogues might invest in it for once. I'd like to see ki options for the Fighter, too-- so we can have a proper Kensai.
I thought it should be pointed out that Ninja Ki being based off Class Level + CHA
doesn't conflict with Multiclassing with Monk whose Ki is based off Class Level + WIS,
it just means you can't min/max on one stat which you can 'double dip' on in each Class.
The result is in point buy you can:
I don't see this as overly problematic... Both 'approaches' have their pros and cons.
It's just baffling at first because there isn't any big mechanical difference in how Ki is used for Monks/Ninjas, as there is for Clerics and Oracles for example. And the Ninja is likely to look somewhat different in the final version anyways, so this discussion could be irrelevant.
??????
I don't see how it affects game balance either way. Wis simply means higher Perception and, , , survival? Of course the ninja benefits more from Cha instead of Wis, but Wis makes sence since it's already been established. And, it just doesn't look right to me.
As for game balance, I don't think it matters all that much. All that matters is if people are having fun. I just want the option to have fun in my own way without having to houserule it. I don't think that's unreasonable.
1) Perception and Survival only? What about will saves?
2) Cha It's fun because feels like an opposition to the calm and Wise monk - great RP potential
3) Balance should never be the main purpose, but a little care can save troubles later.
I am strongly in favor of the Cha based ki pool because not only does Cha have an effect on your ability to persuade, dissuade, and pick up chicks but it also effects the control some one has over their emotions and that is extraordinarily important to the ninja. hmm?
I'm for wis.
The reason is base stat arrangement. Right now from Core and APG, we have a very huge limit on classes that are dependent on wis. Almost all of them are alignment restricted as well. Cleric, Druid, Monk.. all require certain alignments.
Ninjas.
Aren't.
Wise.
They're suicide assassins. They're Martial Arts Al Queda. You don't climb to the top of the mountain sanctuary in Tibet to ask a Ninja his advice. Why? There's no Ninjas there. There's monks there, deriving their Ki from their Wisdom, and the fundamental interconnectedness of all things.
Ninjas draw their power from being creepy cool scary jumpy hidey NINJAS who have no wisdom except death and intimidation.
Intimidation which is a CHA based skill.
I'm fine with Ninjas being CHA characters. Makes total sense to me.
Ninjas.
Aren't.
Wise.
They're suicide assassins. They're Martial Arts Al Queda. You don't climb to the top of the mountain sanctuary in Tibet to ask a Ninja his advice. Why? There's no Ninjas there. There's monks there, deriving their Ki from their Wisdom, and the fundamental interconnectedness of all things.
Ninjas draw their power from being creepy cool scary jumpy hidey NINJAS who have no wisdom except death and intimidation.
Intimidation which is a CHA based skill.
I'm fine with Ninjas being CHA characters. Makes total sense to me.
Yes intimidation is cha based. They don't build all of their power on intimidation. They don't pop out of garbage cans screaming "BOOGA BOOGA" to kill people.
They don't narrow their eyes and make a frowny face to kill people.
You don't see ninjas on American idol jamming on lutes. Why? Cause there is no ninjas there. Theres bards, deriving their mad lute skills from cha.
You don't see ninja's being sent on diplomatic peace missions either.
I've never seen ninja's pop out and start assassinating maniquins because they were too blind to see it.
Never seen a ninja try to bluff his way into not getting hit with a sword swinging at him.
In your games.Ninjas.
Aren't.
Wise.
perhaps the poitn could be "they are not necessarily wise, but they are necessarily Charismatic, since are infiltrators"
a wise ninja could play very differently from an unwise one.
Btw.. did you know boars a wise?
Its true. they have like 13-14 wisdom.
In your games.Ninjas.
Aren't.
Wise.
Nor in history. Ninjas are the suicide bombers of ancient Japanese society. Ninjas were honorless thieves and assassins. A successful ninja mission was one in which he snuck into your castle, poisoned your wife, and burned your guest house down while the Shogun was staying in it for the weekend. Possibly at your request! That's the function they served in Japanese society.
Nothing wise about it.
Never seen a ninja try to bluff his way into not getting hit with a sword swinging at him.
But have you seen them use DISGUISE to infiltrate a stronghold of Christians and murder them by stealing their food? Absolutely! Shimbara Rebellion, early 1600s. Were they used as defacto secret service by the Shogunate? Absolutely! In point of fact, one of the most important functions of real ninjas was disguise-based-sabotage.
The problem with this thread, is there's two kinds of ninja. Historical ninjas, and Comic Book Ninjas. And half the people replying would prefer Comic Book Ninjas to real ones. See, Pathfinder already has a Comic Book Ninja class. It's called "Monk." Real ninjas were peasants taught to be honorless thieves brought under a wing of a Daimyo to do the dirty work nobody with honor (Samurai) would do, which was almost always based on deceit.
They were deceit based thieves. The real ones anyway.
The problem with this thread, is there's two kinds of ninja. Historical ninjas, and Comic Book Ninjas. And half the people replying would prefer Comic Book Ninjas to real ones. See, Pathfinder already has a Comic Book Ninja class. It's called "Monk." Real ninjas were peasants taught to be honorless thieves brought under a wing of a Daimyo to do the dirty work nobody with honor (Samurai) would do, which was almost always based on deceit.
One could say that PF has already archetypes for your ninja - is the Core + APG Rogue. The new Ninja adds bits of the fictional one :D
Just like Kaiyan said. We've already got rogues. Everything you said as "historical" ninjas is a rogue. Historical ninjas aren't suicide bombers, they are asian rogues.
Just like a thieves guild were you pay a rogue to go sneak in, murder your wife and burn down the guest house were the Baron was staying at.
Infact trying to use historical ninjas as the bases of why ki should be cha based makes even less sense than anything else. Historical ninjas don't use ki.
I've never seen a historical ninja go "Hey I look good!" and gain the ability to see in pitch black darkness.
I've never seen a historical ninja jump out of a tower and think "Damn, I'm such a casanova" and slow down his fall.
Even more your "the monk is the comic book ninja" falls apart at one little thing..
Monks don't use swords. Comic book ninjas use swords.
Then a few more things..
Comic book ninjas use poison. Monk doesn't.
Comic book ninjas assassinate people in one blow. Monks don't.
Comic book ninjas are not always lawful. Monk always is lawful.
Also, You don't see Lions meditating in tibet either. So why do Lions have around 13-14 wisdom. They don't go "Confucius say" and spout some proverb. So why are lions so 'wise'.
Simple answer, Wisdom isn't about being wise like Cha isn't about looking good. People often confuse these things. Sea hags after all have a huge cha, but they are hags.
Wisdom is also instinct. You can't tell me, that even your historical ninjas, that ninjas are not based in instinct.
EDIT:
Heck if you want to go really historical, Ninjas should be able to use many of the weapons they are able to use. As you said most ninjas were nothing but commoners who took farm instruments and sharpened them.
Shurikin for example were actually coins or metal slugs with sharpened sides, and were not used to kill but to distract.
Also, You don't see Lions meditating in tibet either. So why do Lions have around 13-14 wisdom. They don't go "Confucius say" and spout some proverb. So why are lions so 'wise'.
Simple answer, Wisdom isn't about being wise like Cha isn't about looking good. People often confuse these things. Sea hags after all have a huge cha, but they are hags.
So if that's the case, why complain about cha being the base of the ninja? If it's just a mechanic, then pick the mechanic that works best with the rest of the mechanics, which is to make the disguisey intimidatey monk (=ninja) work off CHA, and to make multiclass synergies with Ninja fit Sorcerer instead of Druid.
If Monks draw their powers from the same mental faculties a Priest draws from, then what's the problem with a Ninja drawing his powers from the same mental faculties that a Sorcerer draws from?
He said wisdom is instinct, too. As charisma is force of personality and confidence, too.
He didn't say those stats have no meaning. He said can have more meanings than you could think.
(BTW, I DO THINK Charisma is awesome for Ninjas, for reasons I already explained)
Also, You don't see Lions meditating in tibet either. So why do Lions have around 13-14 wisdom. They don't go "Confucius say" and spout some proverb. So why are lions so 'wise'.
Simple answer, Wisdom isn't about being wise like Cha isn't about looking good. People often confuse these things. Sea hags after all have a huge cha, but they are hags.
So if that's the case, why complain about cha being the base of the ninja? If it's just a mechanic, then pick the mechanic that works best with the rest of the mechanics, which is to make the disguisey intimidatey monk (=ninja) work off CHA, and to make multiclass synergies with Ninja fit Sorcerer instead of Druid.
If Monks draw their powers from the same mental faculties a Priest draws from, then what's the problem with a Ninja drawing his powers from the same mental faculties that a Sorcerer draws from?
I can bold random things as well and make it look like I'm attempting to make a point.
Besides, that =/= ninja. What you've described is a rogue.
Wisdom represents three different things.. No actually four.
Street Smarts (Professions), Instinct(animals and perception), Faith (Priests), and finally, a wholeness of self. (Will save.)
The suicide bombers actually have a huge amount of wisdom, representing their faith in whatever they believe in and a wholeness of self. You can't just simply go "Hey bomber dude can you not go boom?" in which they easily fail their will save and give up.
There is an unshakable foundation in their belief. This is the same for your historical ninjas. They have a huge amount of faith within their Daimyo. There is an unshakable fanaticism that being charismatic does not give you.
Being charasmatic doesn't make you go and burn down houses, kill peoples wives, and flip out and kill people. Fanatical devotion to something or a instinctive need/desire do.
Now if you want a purely mechanical reason..
Wis based
Cleric - Must be near their gods alignment
Druid - Must have Neutrality (Lots more limitations too)
Monk - Must be Lawful
Cha based
Sorc - Can be any alignment
Oracle - Can be any alignment
Summoner - any alignment
Bard - cannot be chaotic.
One more that I cant remember..
If anything this supports the need for more Wis based classes. Right now, for example, at my table We've got 4 cha based players, 1 int based and one str based. Can't throw a dead cat without hitting a cha based class.
Now why can't your bards be chaotic?
Now why can't your bards be chaotic?
Because they are just that chaotic that they can't be, but they really are. Thats chaotic!
Just mental dyslexia.. I was thinking lawful at the time and that they are mostly chaotic.. My hands must have typed the ending of the thought.
So errata that message to "cannot be lawful."
Is this a house rule of yours?
'Cause PF dropped the alignment restriction on Bard. You can totally be a Lawful Bard now.
No, just still having some 3.5 bats to kill apparently.
So then None of the Cha based classes have alignment restrictions.
I can bold random things as well and make it look like I'm attempting to make a point.
Besides, that =/= ninja. What you've described is a rogue.
Apparently not, since everyone above is talking about how core rogues use CHA as a dump stat because there's no incentive to do otherwise.
Also, don't patronize me about bolding text to make points when you grossly misrepresent the limitations on Wis based classes to suit your agenda. Clerics aren't alignment restricted, they pick a deity to match their alignment. Druidic alignment restrictions aren't really a restriction either, since just about any concept fits in their bounds. Especially cute that you claim Clerics are alignment restricted and Oracles aren't, when they're basically the same thing, also pretty cute you left out Paladin, which suffers from the staunchest alignment restrictions of all.
If anything this supports the need for more Wis based classes. Right now, for example, at my table We've got 4 cha based players, 1 int based and one str based. Can't throw a dead cat without hitting a cha based class.
Nice anecdote. My gaming group has one bard and five guys who've used CHA as their dump stat. One of which is a monk who spends all session doing Comic Book Ninja stuff.
Wisdom represents three different things.. No actually four.
So Wisdom does four things, huh? Great.
How many things does CHA do? How do Sorcerers use CHA to cast spells? What sort of mental energy are they tapping into? What sort of mental energy are Sea Hags tapping into? Why do Liches gain a +2 CHA? Certainly not for their looks?
Answer me these questions honestly and without evading them to suit your agenda, and you'll have the same reason Ninjas should be based on CHA. Apparently CHA is just as multifaceted and layered a stat in Pathfinder as Wisdom is, yet it's been typecast as "lookin purdy" in this thread to distance Ninjas from it.
Did everyone wail and moan when the Sorcerer class came out and it wasn't based on INT?
If you're going to make Ninja a WIS based class, then there's no reason to make it a class at all. Just make it a monk path for "fallen monks" who are no longer lawful, or a prestige class or something. It's dumb to reinvent the same class with slightly different level boons and claim that you've created new content.
If you're going to make Ninja a WIS based class, then there's no reason to make it a class at all. Just make it a monk path for "fallen monks" who are no longer lawful, or a prestige class or something. It's dumb to reinvent the same class with slightly different level boons and claim that you've created new content.
The ninja class shouldn't be made either way then. Just make it a rogue path. Replace trap sense with no trace. Replace trapfinding with poison use. Replace evasion with ki pool.
replace features as you go along. Practically ability for ability, it is a rogue.
How many things does CHA do? How do Sorcerers use CHA to cast spells? What sort of mental energy are they tapping into? What sort of mental energy are Sea Hags tapping into? Why do Liches gain a +2 CHA? Certainly not for their looks?
Lichs are old. Like old people they gain bonuses to all metal stats. It takes a really long time to become a lich.
Sorc have the force of personality. They invoke their will on the world. Hags, have the force of presentation.
Grizzly bears.. have 6 cha.
Here is a high Cha ninja..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzEaGghX3Uw
about 4-5 minutes in.
You've got historical ninjas and comic ninjas confused.
But the biggest problem is that people are falling for the MMO fallacy.
"My class sucks, so nerf some other class."
by that I don't mean that they think their class sucks, but it actually does and isn't usable, but for whatever reason they think nerfing some other class (whether that other class is OP or not) will some how make things "fixed"
Your table has 1 bard, A monk (Who apparently uses swords, poison and sneak attacks) and a few other people who have dumped cha.
There is a few reasons for this, the first being lack of social encounters that really need that cha from multiple people other than just the bard.
The second is that the developers pretty much made cha a dump stat. Seriously, what does CHA do that cannot be done through hard work and training?
It doesn't matter if there is enough cha based classes to choke a horse, people who pick a class that isn't cha based are going to dump stat it.
Having a cha ninja isn't going to make the rogue take cha. It isn't going to make the fighter take cha. It isn't going to make the barb take cha.
This is where 4e actually did something a little bit right in that each stat is practically just another mechanic to hit something with.
What Needs to be done to make cha relevant is more changes to it in itself. And a few feats that make cha relevant in combat (Not skills) but cha itself. Like showsmenship striker - Add your CHA mod to any damage rolls. Requires 13 or 15 cha.
EDIT:
One last thing, yes actually people moaned about sorc. But they moaned about it being "dumb player wizard". You can't compare to when the sorc came out in pathfinder to ninja coming out in pathfinder in that way. Sorc had precedence in 3.0 and 3.5. The only change is that sorc got better and more differentiated from wizard in pathfinder.
The ninja class shouldn't be made either way then. Just make it a rogue path. Replace trap sense with no trace. Replace trapfinding with poison use. Replace evasion with ki pool.
replace features as you go along. Practically ability for ability, it is a rogue.
I don't know enough to know whether you're right or not, but everyone up top says Rogues use CHA as a dump stat, so there does seem to be an available gap for an "oriental-disguise-infiltration-rogue." So lets just scrap Ninja and design one of those.
What should we call it? Shinobi?
Lichs are old. Like old people they gain bonuses to all metal stats. It takes a really long time to become a lich.
No it doesn't. It takes "months, years, or decades," (RAW) some adventures, and the craft wonderous item feat. And that's not where they get their CHA either. They get their CHA from the template. If they had age adjustments before they assumed lich form, then those stick. They're separate bonuses, and becoming a lich itself absolutely increases your CHA.
Tell me how.
Sorc have the force of personality. They invoke their will on the world. Hags, have the force of presentation.
Huh? Hags Powerpoint you to death? No. Since you're evading the question, lets have Paizo answer this question for us:
Scions of innately magical bloodlines, the chosen of deities, the spawn of monsters, pawns of fate and destiny, or simply flukes of fickle magic, sorcerers look within themselves for arcane prowess and draw forth might few mortals can imagine. Emboldened by lives ever threatening to be consumed by their innate powers, these magic-touched souls endlessly indulge in and refine their mysterious abilities, gradually learning how to harness their birthright and coax forth ever greater arcane feats.
The sorcerer's soul was touched by magic, and that's where he gets his CHA powers.
Well dumb luck, in eastern philosophy the soul is where the Ki (life force) comes from! How about them apples?
The truth is that a person's "soul" in PF is comprised of all three mental attributes, not just WIZ, which is why you keep all three mentals when you reincarnate. Bickering over which third of your soul you draw your Ki from is stupid. By all rights, you should be able to draw it from any of the three if you're trained to do so, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Paizo introduce a third Ki class that goes off Int. Not sure what they'd equate it to though.
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By all rights, you should be able to draw it from any of the three if you're trained to do so, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Paizo introduce a third Ki class that goes off Int.
Thank you for validating my opinion that my 3.5 Ninja class rewrite should be able to choose which mental stat it uses for its class features. I'm going to have to find the time to work on it some more now. :)
By all rights, you should be able to draw it from any of the three if you're trained to do so, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Paizo introduce a third Ki class that goes off Int.Thank you for validating my opinion that my 3.5 Ninja class rewrite should be able to choose which mental stat it uses for its class features. I'm going to have to find the time to work on it some more now. :)
:)
More seriously, I think choosing which stat you draw your powers from is far too powerful a class feature to award to any class, and even if it wasn't, there are other classes who deserve it more than Ninja. Paladin, Sorcerer, Oracle, and Summoner come to mind.
I think every class should have the ability to choose, so long as the choice is actually a hard one. Hence why in my games I'm moving Cha to Will saves.
Look, I'm not generally a fan of "use this stat for X" because could lead to a flat game with 6 meaningless stats.
nevertheless, in this case I like it, because Charisma is force of personality, too, so it makes sense for will saves.
My only beef is an arcane caster adding to a save a stat he raises very high for sure.
I like to think of spellcasters already having a choice of casting stat by being able to pick which class they are. :) So no, Wizards do not get to choose something besides Int for spellcasting. They did that when they chose to be a Wizard.
I was thinking to the sorcerer. oracle fits too, but the spell list is divine. Bard cast level 6. Just a thought, maybe I try it out and I feel it perfectly balanced.
The ninja class shouldn't be made either way then. Just make it a rogue path. Replace trap sense with no trace. Replace trapfinding with poison use. Replace evasion with ki pool.
replace features as you go along. Practically ability for ability, it is a rogue.
I don't know enough to know whether you're right or not, but everyone up top says Rogues use CHA as a dump stat, so there does seem to be an available gap for an "oriental-disguise-infiltration-rogue." So lets just scrap Ninja and design one of those.
What should we call it? Shinobi?
Why is Cha a dump stat for rogues?
Why do people take stats?
Str: Hit/Damage, Carrying capacity
Dex: AC, Ranged Hit, Reflex
Con: HP, Fort, Death saves
Int: Skill Points
Wis: Will saves
Cha: ...?
Seriously.. People don't take Cha because it only adds to skills, And well Int does that too but better.
Lichs are old. Like old people they gain bonuses to all metal stats. It takes a really long time to become a lich.No it doesn't. It takes "months, years, or decades," (RAW) some adventures, and the craft wonderous item feat. And that's not where they get their CHA either. They get their CHA from the template. If they had age adjustments before they assumed lich form, then those stick. They're separate bonuses, and becoming a lich itself absolutely increases your CHA.
Tell me how.
They get their cha from a mechanical feature to defeat my they get cha from RP oriented features.
Generally, when you meet a lich they are older than old. I don't know about you, but I don't generally meet the lich who just became a lich at the ripe old age of 20.
Sorc have the force of personality. They invoke their will on the world. Hags, have the force of presentation.Huh? Hags Powerpoint you to death? No. Since you're evading the question, lets have Paizo answer this question for us:
Scions of innately magical bloodlines, the chosen of deities, the spawn of monsters, pawns of fate and destiny, or simply flukes of fickle magic, sorcerers look within themselves for arcane prowess and draw forth might few mortals can imagine. Emboldened by lives ever threatening to be consumed by their innate powers, these magic-touched souls endlessly indulge in and refine their mysterious abilities, gradually learning how to harness their birthright and coax forth ever greater arcane feats.The sorcerer's soul was touched by magic, and that's where he gets his CHA powers.
Well dumb luck, in eastern philosophy the soul is where...
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal
magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance
Further more.. you forgot to bold a part. But here is more mentions of souls..
For some, there is only rage. In the ways of their people,in the fury of their passion, in the howl of battle, conf lict
is all these brutal souls know.
Called paladins, these noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil.
While deadly opponents of evil, they
can also empower goodly souls to aid in their crusades.
Inquisitor: Some gnomes learn the harshness of
the world, and especially harder-hearted races, all too
personally, donning the mantle of the inquisitor to defend
their people and protect their lands from callous souls.
Your quote isn't about the sorcerers soul being touched with magic.
Its about the sorc, they refereed to the sorc as a magic-touched soul. Like the refer to barbarian as a brutal soul. All of these quotes (including yours) isn't at all about the "ki generating" soul as you were trying to make the wireframe worthy logic jump.
Besides, even if it was, Ninjas don't have a "ninja heritige" that the draw on from being related to an earth elemental.
I didn't evade the question either.. I played baseball with you. Wasn't my fault you ran off to the hockey rink
Why is Cha a dump stat for rogues?
Why do people take stats?
Str: Hit/Damage, Carrying capacity
Dex: AC, Ranged Hit, Reflex
Con: HP, Fort, Death saves
Int: Skill Points
Wis: Will saves
Cha: ...?Seriously.. People don't take Cha because it only adds to skills, And well Int does that too but better.
So gosh, it sure does seem like there's a reason to have a CHA based infiltration class that's not Rogue.
So what should we name it? I'm telling you, Shinobi has a nice ring to it. If only there was a more generally accepted english version of that word...
They get their cha from a mechanical feature to defeat my they get cha from RP oriented features.
Umm, ok? Ninja should have Ki based on CHA for its mechanical features then?
Generally, when you meet a lich they are older than old. I don't know about you, but I don't generally meet the lich who just became a lich at the ripe old age of 20.
We have one in my play group. He's a half orc, about 18 years old, who has decided from birth he wants to be a lich because his lifespan is too short. He's about there. (we're 12ish level currently) Has his phylacrity (sp?) research done and everything. This after about two years of game time - not unreasonable at all.
But again, doesn't matter how old the lich is when you meet it. What matters is that the lich gains +2 CHA regardless of age when it acquires the template.
Your quote isn't about the sorcerers soul being touched with magic.
Sure it is. Sorcerers draw power from their souls being touched by magic. That's what sorcerers do. They draw it through their CHA. If Ninjas want to draw Ki through their CHA, then I don't see what the problem is.
Why is Cha a dump stat for rogues?
Why do people take stats?
Str: Hit/Damage, Carrying capacity
Dex: AC, Ranged Hit, Reflex
Con: HP, Fort, Death saves
Int: Skill Points
Wis: Will saves
Cha: ...?Seriously.. People don't take Cha because it only adds to skills, And well Int does that too but better.
So gosh, it sure does seem like there's a reason to have a CHA based infiltration class that's not Rogue.
So what should we name it? I'm telling you, Shinobi has a nice ring to it. If only there was a more generally accepted english version of that word...
It doesn't matter what you call the class or what the class is. A rogue, fighter, barb, and many other classes STILL will not put points into cha.
And a cha based infiltrator thats not rogue? Bard.
They get their cha from a mechanical feature to defeat my they get cha from RP oriented features.Umm, ok? Ninja should have Ki based on CHA for its mechanical features then?
Generally, when you meet a lich they are older than old. I don't know about you, but I don't generally meet the lich who just became a lich at the ripe old age of 20.We have one in my play group. He's a half orc, about 18 years old, who has decided from birth he wants to be a lich because his lifespan is too short. He's about there. (we're 12ish level currently) Has his phylacrity (sp?) research done and everything. This after about two years of game time - not unreasonable at all.
But again, doesn't matter how old the lich is when you meet it. What matters is that the lich gains +2 CHA regardless of age when it acquires the template.
you don't understand at all. They don't just get a +2 to cha. They get a +2 to ALL mental stats.
But if you want the book..
For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.”
That's why your lich has +2 cha. Now if all historical ninjas were undead..
Your quote isn't about the sorcerers soul being touched with magic.Sure it is. Sorcerers draw power from their souls being touched by magic. That's what sorcerers do. They draw it through their CHA. If Ninjas want to draw Ki through their CHA, then I don't see what the problem is.
No its not. It referred to the sorcerers as souls.. Like it referred to barbarians as souls. The magic they have has (standardly) NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SOUL. Its about the blood, the genetic offspring of some powerful magic based entity and whatever race you decided to go with the sorcerer.
This is why bloat mages can drink a persons blood and gain the powers of the heritage for a brief time.
Charisma measures a character’s personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance.
Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense,
awareness, and intuition.
But if a ninja doesn't have a good charisma, how can he look as awesome as his fans think he is?
--A pirate fan
Personally, I like the concept of choosing cha or wis for ki.
For both monks and ninjas, really. In my home rules, I'd say either class gets to pick one, and all the appropriate stat-based abilities of the class are changed to fit that choice. The choice is permanent, and carries across to any other class that uses ki.
To me, it reflects the two 'paths' of martial arts. Anyone who's read History's Strongest Disciple (and paid attention to something other than the cheesecake and fan service) would be familiar with 'Sei' and 'Dou.' The concept extends beyond that series, but it's got the easiest definition for me.
Sei is 'still water mind,' fighting via absolute self-control, analysis, and precise, minimal movement. Sounds like wis to me.
Dou is 'burning soul,' fighting while using your emotions to boost your adrenaline, pushing your body past its limits, and explosive techniques. I could easily see this being cha.
I'd probably add in some specific benefit to each side, like Sei users are the ones who get wis to AC, while Dou users get cha bonus to attack.
Personally, I like the concept of choosing cha or wis for ki.
For both monks and ninjas, really. In my home rules, I'd say either class gets to pick one, and all the appropriate stat-based abilities of the class are changed to fit that choice. The choice is permanent, and carries across to any other class that uses ki.
To me, it reflects the two 'paths' of martial arts. Anyone who's read History's Strongest Disciple (and paid attention to something other than the cheesecake and fan service) would be familiar with 'Sei' and 'Dou.' The concept extends beyond that series, but it's got the easiest definition for me.
Sei is 'still water mind,' fighting via absolute self-control, analysis, and precise, minimal movement. Sounds like wis to me.
Dou is 'burning soul,' fighting while using your emotions to boost your adrenaline, pushing your body past its limits, and explosive techniques. I could easily see this being cha.
I'd probably add in some specific benefit to each side, like Sei users are the ones who get wis to AC, while Dou users get cha bonus to attack.
Now that would be cool!
It would be cool if they extend it into monk a bit more too, as it is a defensive class, for the cha attacking one.
And a cha based infiltrator thats not rogue? Bard.
Bards aren't infiltrators. Bards want to be seen. All bards level abilities have to do with drawing attention to themselves. There *IS* room in the class-space for a charisma based infiltrator, because rogue is not it. There is *NOT* room in the class space for another wisdom based infiltrator, because that's monk.
But if you want the book..
For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.”
Great. You know what the Asian word for "Life Force" is, right? Qi. Ki. Chi. Depending on the language.
Personally, I like the concept of choosing cha or wis for ki.
For both monks and ninjas, really. In my home rules, I'd say either class gets to pick one, and all the appropriate stat-based abilities of the class are changed to fit that choice. The choice is permanent, and carries across to any other class that uses ki.
To me, it reflects the two 'paths' of martial arts. Anyone who's read History's Strongest Disciple (and paid attention to something other than the cheesecake and fan service) would be familiar with 'Sei' and 'Dou.' The concept extends beyond that series, but it's got the easiest definition for me.
Sei is 'still water mind,' fighting via absolute self-control, analysis, and precise, minimal movement. Sounds like wis to me.
Dou is 'burning soul,' fighting while using your emotions to boost your adrenaline, pushing your body past its limits, and explosive techniques. I could easily see this being cha.
I'd probably add in some specific benefit to each side, like Sei users are the ones who get wis to AC, while Dou users get cha bonus to attack.
Now that would be cool!
It would be cool if they extend it into monk a bit more too, as it is a defensive class, for the cha attacking one.
I agree. That is in fact pretty dang cool.
You can see charisma as an uber self confidence too.
The sorcerer strongly believes in the strenght of his blood. All his hearth is involved in the spellcasting. The undead will take him "alive". Greater the will, greater the "life" force.
Ninja is a self confident badass. His Ki reflects this - different from the awareness and tranquillity of the monk. Great RP potential if you have both in you party (in a similar manner than having a Sorcerer and a Wizard, or an Oracle and a Cleric).
And a cha based infiltrator thats not rogue? Bard.Bards aren't infiltrators. Bards want to be seen. All bards level abilities have to do with drawing attention to themselves. There *IS* room in the class-space for a charisma based infiltrator, because rogue is not it. There is *NOT* room in the class space for another wisdom based infiltrator, because that's monk.
But if you want the book..
For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.”
Great. You know what the Asian word for "Life Force" is, right? Qi. Ki. Chi. Depending on the language.
If you think bard isn't an infiltrator, you've not really been playing bard.
But hey, I can call the same thing about your idea that a monk is an "infiltrator" saying something like no its not, the monk is a defensive class.
And great, your leap of logic would work if you followed the second part of that.. you know "Would be great for you if all ninjas were unnatural undead creatures."
What is CHA replacing for an undead? CHA is a replacement of Con. So really what you should be saying is that CON should be the focus of a ninja, after all we can't have any overlapping and we don't have a con based infiltrator.
This Chinese, Korean and Japanese word means "life force" or simply "life". The first character means "life" or "birth". The second means "life" or "fate". Together they create the meaning of "life force", though some will translate this as "existence" and sometimes "vitality"
You can see charisma as an uber self confidence too.
The sorcerer strongly believes in the strenght of his blood. All his hearth is involved in the spellcasting. The undead will take him "alive". Greater the will, greater the "life" force.
Ninja is a self confident badass. His Ki reflects this - different from the awareness and tranquillity of the monk. Great RP potential if you have both in you party (in a similar manner than having a Sorcerer and a Wizard, or an Oracle and a Cleric).
Actually not really. The problem is that the "uberself confidence" is easily destroyed with three simple words "Make will save"
Part of the reason I fully support having cha or wis determine your will save.
Actually not really. The problem is that the "uberself confidence" is easily destroyed with three simple words "Make will save"
I haven't looked at the balance issues at all, but I see absolutely no problem conceptually giving Ninjas the same "CHA Bonus to Saves" that Paladins get. I think that would make sense.
As long as the Ninja is clearly distinguishable from both the Rogue and the Monk I don't give a rats behind what stat they use for Ki. All stats are abstractions and you could make an arguement for/against the use of any of them.
Personally, unless I'm playing a game of Naruto, I would've made the ninja a prestige class but that's just my preference.
At this point, I'm betting they're going to stick with CHR (< how I've always abbreviated Charisma; I don't know why). On the plus side for a CHR-ninja, we can then have a 100 page 'Ninjas SUCK!!!' thread just like the old 'Bards SUCK!!!' thread from early 3.0. Who wouldn't want that again?
One option is to make the Ninja ki pool wisdom based, but use that power to affect cha based skills, i.e. substitute wis for cha on social skills. Similar to the Inquisitor and wisdom affecting knowledge skills.
But in the end, I would have liked to seen some of the standard wisdom based classes segmented out to other abilties. Or have more classes with two ability paths like 4E.
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*returns after a long while*
*reads thread*
Sure got loud in here. Civility, proszę?
I also cannot help but notice that a lot of ground covered in posts 1-50 has been covered again more recently, particularly re: Historical/Folklore/Fantasy ninja. All that really needs establishing at this point is for whom the new ninja class is intended.
And, since Paizo seems adamant about using Charisma, I have to say I'm rather taken with Stalchild's sei and dou distinction. If we have Cha driven ninja, can we have some Cha driven monks as well? It might be a neat archetype, especially as more Tian material emerges and some groups attempt to emulate the wuxia genre.
Hopefully in the next round of playtest they'll let players decide between Cha or Wis for their ninja. I believe that is a fair compromise.
Also, if you support Cha based ki and playing HISTORICAL ninja then you need to get your head checked. If I have to explain why, please put down the controller and get yourself some outside time for a little while.
Take one level of monk and you can choose have a wisdom based ki pool as the class is currently written.
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If the sorcerer can be awesome at magic through force of personality, and the paladin can be awesome through divine grace due to force of personality. Then the ninja can be awesome do to secret techniques and force of personality.
I don't see how this requires suspension of disbelief. Charisma is not how pretty you look. Charisma is how in command of yourself and others you are, it is force of will, and the ability to impose your will on others. Through bluff, intimidation, and disguise you can know others better than they know themselves, subverting them through subtle manipulation and adopted mannerisms.
I see charisma as being integral to ninjitsu, the art of distraction. Because really, charisma represents your ability to execute a technique such that your opponent will not be able to react fast enough to evade. Setting DCs by charisma for the art of distraction makes logical sense. Having a bit more ability to manipulate yourself and opponents through exceptional force of will makes sense, so the ki pool being charisma based makes logical sense as well. If you practice charisma based techniques, exceptional charisma makes you petter at them than others.
I suppose I just really don't see the other side of this. Oracles are pretty mystical, and they are charisma based as well. Paladins are directly powered by the gods based on their charisma. So there is already president for such things.
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I have met a ninjitsu instructor before. He frightened me, passively. He would smile and talk about how someone severely injured themselves or others as if he was telling a joke, only there was no punch line, only the lesson of another person's pain for you to imagine. Not every martial art is based on koens and zen.
Taking a level of monk to gain its ki pool is not a "fix".
Just because you met that one guy one time, doesn't mean all ninjitsu is based on cha.
Like Bones, she lacked cha early on. Sure she look good, but she is a tv character, they pretty much always look good. But she would flat out tell Booth things about people dieing or their genitals being removed etc.
And well, it disturbed Booth. Not because Bones is trained in ninjitsu or how to use her cha effectively. But simply because of information. A person of high int and low cha can frighten you.. passively. Because they don't act the way you do. A kid who plays with dead animals and dissects them for fun is pretty scary.
The biggest problem is the fact that cha isn't your force of will in mechanics. That's wisdom. Hence will saves are cha based.
We are not proponents of making just wis based, but for the ability to have cha or wis be available for the ninja ki pool, just like many of us would like wis or cha to be for gunslingers grit pool.
Taking a level of monk to gain its ki pool is not a "fix".
Just because you met that one guy one time, doesn't mean all ninjitsu is based on cha.
Like Bones, she lacked cha early on. Sure she look good, but she is a tv character, they pretty much always look good. But she would flat out tell Booth things about people dieing or their genitals being removed etc.
And well, it disturbed Booth. Not because Bones is trained in ninjitsu or how to use her cha effectively. But simply because of information. A person of high int and low cha can frighten you.. passively. Because they don't act the way you do. A kid who plays with dead animals and dissects them for fun is pretty scary.
The biggest problem is the fact that cha isn't your force of will in mechanics. That's wisdom. Hence will saves are cha based.
We are not proponents of making just wis based, but for the ability to have cha or wis be available for the ninja ki pool, just like many of us would like wis or cha to be for gunslingers grit pool.
Huh, funny, pathfinder words so many things infinitely better than 3.5, but this is lost in translation?
heres what I mean:
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.
The difference in fluff is bolded for emphasis.
Pathfinder fluff nerfs charisma?
Paizo staff, would you care to comment? I was always told that charisma was more than how you look, but in the core fluff it reads as "Your appearance and how much people agree with you; also, a measure of how much others want to do you." Personality is entirely in how you role play your character, and an ability score is meaningless as a metric for personality.
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as for the whole history vs comic thing with ninjas, is a simple look at trying to get a healthy medium to those of us who want a fantasy ninja from myth! just like the witch or druid, who imo are turely a blend of historical with mythical. So add in the balance for play mechanics and this is what the have devised. I think it is good, except for a few of the free daily use abilities of ninja tricks, it seems to allow you to play a ninja, that with in the context of the world in which sorcerers, wizards, witches, and mystical martial artists reside with in that these covert operations guys get unique abilites that put them on par allowing them to do there real world skills against such mythical powered individuals. and as for charisma as their set skill for ki, I believe it fare as they harness the energy not from meditation and spiritual awareness, but from self determination, self discovery and being a force of self conciousness that exudes from a strong devotion to self and his ability to divest his energies into the only thing he can rely on and that is his confidence and stubborn mind set. At least thats my two cents, and please disregard spelling errors i'm half asleep typing this
Is this really still going? I'll say it again anyway, pazio stated it was going for a fantasy ninja all the way and doing stuff through sheer badassery is what their known for, not how much training got them there. Remember in pathfinder your born a ninja you don't just become one.