So, as of right now, the amount of posts regarding the samurai is about 1/2 the number discussing the ninja and about 1/5 of the gunslinger's.
I'm very interested in discovering the reason for this phenomenon as I imagine one of several potential causes may be responsible.
Is the class underwhelming and there simply isn't much to discuss? Or is it so well executed that you have no complaints? Is it that you just don't care?
So, as of right now, the amount of posts regarding the samurai is about 1/2 the number discussing the ninja and about 1/5 of the gunslinger's.
I'm very interested in discovering the reason for this phenomenon as I imagine one of several potential causes may be responsible.
Is the class underwhelming and there simply isn't much to discuss? Or is it so well executed that you have no complaints? Is it that you just don't care?
just dont care, it's most like the class it's meant to be an alternate too, and honestly think it should just be an archetype, and leave more space for more orders which is still woefully too short of a resource.
Edit: also I have to say i really really like ronins and will probably play one in the near future.
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It's last in the document and lowest on the forum. Posters are fickle.
For me, it deserves alternate-class treatment least, out of the three concepts introduced.
The design offered doesn't inspire me and I don't see a clear way forward to improve it. Others seem to have more constructive ideas, which hopefully will come to something compelling.
I could talk about the Japan-specific nature of it in the ninja forum rather than here. Having said that, I don't have any more to add on that topic.
So, as of right now, the amount of posts regarding the samurai is about 1/2 the number discussing the ninja and about 1/5 of the gunslinger's.
I'm very interested in discovering the reason for this phenomenon as I imagine one of several potential causes may be responsible.
Is the class underwhelming and there simply isn't much to discuss? Or is it so well executed that you have no complaints? Is it that you just don't care?
1. Most ppl saw mount read that their was no alternative, and decided they wont play the class.
2. They aren't overpowered so ppl have no reason to complain about that.
3. Like it was stated above no one cared for cavalier mostly because they have the mount.
Now I like the class its flavorful and pseudo historical with out the crazy ridiculous supernatural wuxia abilities most ppl assumed it would have. I do feel it and Cavalier for that matter, need an option for the class to not have a mount, every other class has that option and I feel this class needs one also. I also think that the weapons you can choose for expertise should be larger, but That can be a quick houserule, I for one will be tying weapons to each order.
We have a cavalier in our group.
He can do plenty of stuff without his mount.
He rarely if ever needs to leave the mount behind,
he has ridden it all over the place in serpent's skull.
I don't think there is a problem with he has a horse but doesn't always have it, most of his abilities are not actually mount dependent, its simply just one feature, like a druids animal companion, it doesn't really make or break the druid.
I don't really think of samurai (or ronin especially) as mounted that much.
Samurai were also well known for falconry.
Maybe it would be cool to be able to choose a bird of prey as an animal companion as an alternative to horse for the samurai, ronin?
i don't really see other animals like lizards and snakes etc.
maybe ronin could get a dog/wolf....just because they are outcasts.
But letting a Samurai/Ronin have a falcon/hawk/owl/eagle etc in lieu on a horse, if they so chose would be really cool and different.
We have a cavalier in our group.
He can do plenty of stuff without his mount.
He rarely if ever needs to leave the mount behind,
he has ridden it all over the place in serpent's skull.I don't think there is a problem with he has a horse but doesn't always have it, most of his abilities are not actually mount dependent, its simply just one feature, like a druids animal companion, it doesn't really make or break the druid.
I don't really think of samurai (or ronin especially) as mounted that much.
Samurai were also well known for falconry.
Maybe it would be cool to be able to choose a bird of prey as an animal companion as an alternative to horse for the samurai, ronin?i don't really see other animals like lizards and snakes etc.
maybe ronin could get a dog/wolf....just because they are outcasts.
But letting a Samurai/Ronin have a falcon/hawk/owl/eagle etc in lieu on a horse, if they so chose would be really cool and different.
Wasn't suggesting other options for creatures you can have I was saying how the druids get the companion or a domain, or paladins get a mount or the magic weapon, or Rangers get the compainion or the Leadership favored enemy, or wizards get the familiar or the bonded item.
I just think its weird that every other class with that ability has the option except cavalier/samurai.
Sometimes I just dont feel like having to stat up that second character for myself. Id rather just take some cheap bonus thats less work.
The Samurai was the one that was the best done, it really does not need any changes nor does it have any wonky abilities that need to be worked out. As is the samurai can be used and fits.
What Realmwalker said. Looking at the Samurai class, I can tell right away that it is an Alternate form of the Cavalier, just as the Antipaladin is to the Paladin. Its abilities are tweaked in the slightest, and it has more Asiatic-themed Orders available to it.
The biggest issue with the Gunslinger and Ninja seems to be that their features are so different from the classes that they alternate from that they should be stand-alone base classes.
We have a cavalier in our group.
He can do plenty of stuff without his mount.
He rarely if ever needs to leave the mount behind,
he has ridden it all over the place in serpent's skull.I don't think there is a problem with he has a horse but doesn't always have it, most of his abilities are not actually mount dependent, its simply just one feature, like a druids animal companion, it doesn't really make or break the druid.
I don't really think of samurai (or ronin especially) as mounted that much.
Samurai were also well known for falconry.
Maybe it would be cool to be able to choose a bird of prey as an animal companion as an alternative to horse for the samurai, ronin?i don't really see other animals like lizards and snakes etc.
maybe ronin could get a dog/wolf....just because they are outcasts.
But letting a Samurai/Ronin have a falcon/hawk/owl/eagle etc in lieu on a horse, if they so chose would be really cool and different.
Wasn't suggesting other options for creatures you can have I was saying how the druids get the companion or a domain, or paladins get a mount or the magic weapon, or Rangers get the compainion or the Leadership favored enemy, or wizards get the familiar or the bonded item.
I just think its weird that every other class with that ability has the option except cavalier/samurai.
Sometimes I just dont feel like having to stat up that second character for myself. Id rather just take some cheap bonus thats less work.
well gosh im at a loss, i cant think of anything the samurai needs or is missing.
Maybe a second expertise?
well gosh im at a loss, i cant think of anything the samurai needs or is missing.
Maybe a second expertise?
Thats just the thing, I cant Think of something, To be honest I was hoping someone else would have a suggestion. Maybe One extra use of resolve and the ability to spend 2 uses to give one of his allies the resolve boost. Could be the samurai's resolve is so strong it extends to his allies?
Second expertise could be interesting give him one early and the second lets him become a pretty good switch hitter?
well gosh im at a loss, i cant think of anything the samurai needs or is missing.
Maybe a second expertise?
Thats just the thing, I cant Think of something, To be honest I was hoping someone else would have a suggestion. Maybe One extra use of resolve and the ability to spend 2 uses to give one of his allies the resolve boost. Could be the samurai's resolve is so strong it extends to his allies?
Second expertise could be interesting give him one early and the second lets him become a pretty good switch hitter?
how about a dowry?
The samurai could be married or betrothed, and as such got a huge boost in gold and starting wealth, in lieu of a mount. This would let him get access to a mwk katana and armor at 1st level.
If not dowry, then noble status or inheritance?
(or even a small piece of land, and a household instead of expensive weapons, maybe something that is not only self sufficient but generates some income, like a farm, or a foundry or something.)
I think that
1) Seems well done, not too powerful or too weak
2) it does not deviates too much from the Cavalier
So people have less to say, barring asking for alternatives to mount for him and the Western counterpart.
I think that
1) Seems well done, not too powerful or too weak
2) it does not deviates too much from the Cavalier
So people have less to say, barring asking for alternatives to mount for him and the Western counterpart.
My only complaint is my Goblin Samurai should be able to choose Goblin Dog as his mount...:(
My only complaint is my Goblin Samurai should be able to choose Goblin Dog as his mount...:(I think that
1) Seems well done, not too powerful or too weak
2) it does not deviates too much from the Cavalier
So people have less to say, barring asking for alternatives to mount for him and the Western counterpart.
Goblin Samurai is totally awesome. Why no goblin dog?
I think that
1) Seems well done, not too powerful or too weak
2) it does not deviates too much from the Cavalier
So people have less to say, barring asking for alternatives to mount for him and the Western counterpart.
This. I read the class, found it well balanced and interesting and moved on. It's somehow more engaging than the Cavalier is to me, it has abilities which seem well suited for the concept and so I'll play it sometime when I get the chance.
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The Samurai was the one that was the best done, it really does not need any changes nor does it have any wonky abilities that need to be worked out. As is the samurai can be used and fits.
This is my thought as well... the samurai looks good and solid. I actually prefer it to the cavalier, but then i also don't care for teamwork feats.
The only glaring thing is the ronin's challenge though that's in another thread.
I think it's fine.
Nothing to discuss, really.
The Samurai was the one that was the best done, it really does not need any changes nor does it have any wonky abilities that need to be worked out. As is the samurai can be used and fits.
Pretty much this, the sammy needs a little work, but he is not the mess the gunslinger or ninja is.
I really think this one is petty well done, it may need some cleaning up and I would like to see more orders but this is a pretty good archetype.
Yea what IS the deal with shields, did samurai EVER use shields?
LOL i guess galorian ones do!
I'd keep the shield prof. What if I want refluff the samurai as a standard cavalier in a non-oriental setting?
Remove shield use to make up for the additional weapon prof. they get and it balances well.
Yea what IS the deal with shields, did samurai EVER use shields?LOL i guess galorian ones do!
+1 and shield doesn't seem right
and fighter feats is perhaps a bit über...or perhaps not.Some sort of alternate non-mounted ability would be really welcome as an option instead of the mount.
This non-mounted ability should be givven to the cavalier too.
The Paladin has one, why not the Cavalier and the Samurai :-)
1. Most ppl saw mount read that their was no alternative, and decided they wont play the class.
2. They aren't overpowered so ppl have no reason to complain about that.
3. Like it was stated above no one cared for cavalier mostly because they have the mount.
+1
Me I don't really like the oriental stuff. Monk, Samurai not my thing.Same thing with Ninja, but I like it more. It could be renamned and use as a rogue or a non evil assassin.
Gun slinger? Not my thing, but peaople want guns so here we are.
I agree with Kenjishinomouri but I would add:
4. There is not need of a Samurai class. People want guns and they want Ninjas, but a Samurai class? "No really new mechanics/subsystems at play, like Grit or Ninja Ki Tricks, etc" so you can instead play a Fighter or a Fighter/Rogue or even a Cavalier or a Paladin and call it a Samurai.
or as Quandary put it in the ninja thread:
I rather like the Samurai. (even if I´m more inclined to use it slightly re-flavored as a Mongol Horse Lord type)
I think the reasons there isn´t as much discussion is:
* It´s REALLY similar to Cavalier, without presenting balance issues like Ninja/Rogue, so most people don´t see too much to discuss.
* No really new mechanics/subsystems at play, like Grit or Ninja Ki Tricks, etc.
* Cavaliers maybe aren´t THE most popular class, and people like to discuss things relevant to their own games.I definitely think it´s the one class that needs the least work to make it publishable.
edit:
or...
it's not too powerful or too weak
it's not unique (have no unique mechanics/subsystems).
it's not sexy.
it's a Cavalier with access to fighter feats caling it self a Samurai.
Why do those need overhauled? Because they are archetypes? I agree the ninja needs work, removing the talent wall and balancing but it is a pretty good archetype really, just needs some work.
Why do those need overhauled? Because they are archetypes? I agree the ninja needs work, removing the talent wall and balancing but it is a pretty good archetype really, just needs some work.
I will agree that the samurai Alternate class Is Near Perfect, I feel a tweak with the mount would be a welcome change, but would have no issues if it was printed as is.
Ninja, I'm not sure what they will end up doing about this, not to many people are willing to discuss changes and instead just want to get rid of it. Rather than offer advice they just blab on about just give rogue ki and ninja tricks and it will all be fine yada yada yada.
Gunslinger... Im not willing to get into the discussion about this... it deviates a lot from fighter, I think it needs to be its own base class based on the deed mechanics, it could end up being a very viable scoundrel type class.
The gunslinger is an alt class, while still clearly built upon the fighter frame it changes a great many things , it is easily on pare with the anti-paladin.
I disagree about needing a mount replacement I feel it is unneeded and un called for.
The ninja is touchy as well those tricks need rolled into rogue talents. We have gave a few options about the ki powers but all the other side will consider is they stay barred from the mother class. Which is the one thing it can not and should not be allowed to do and is the main issue.
The archetype isn't to awful other then that and balancing the tricks which honestly as they stand are outright better then anything any other rogue can do. The "super cool"/"not as cool" talent wall really must go, it is a needless restriction that makes no sense.
None taken, Severed. Yes; out of the three, it really doesn't need tweaking. Could some be done to the Gunslinger? Sure; but does it need a complete overhaul like the Samurai and Ninja? No; I don't think it does.
Not to engage in some fisticuffs but... have you actually looked at the Gunslinger? You would be better off playing an NPC Warrior. The class doesn't even become playable until lvl 11, and that's only if you signature the lightning reload.
11 gp cost per attack is a bit much as well.
11 gp cost per attack is a bit much as well.
the gun rules they seem to be using are the one's for Golarion, Im sure they will be more cost effective in the UC write up.
Hey, no biggie, Heretek. I don't mind actually talking with those that are civil. I should mention that this is purely based on perception. I've only tested the ninja so far and found him to be very broken. The player of the ninja destroyed the test game I had made in about thirty minutes through his abilities alone.I won't be playtesting the Samurai and Gunslinger until tomorrow. At that point, I'll be able to re-evaluate my original perception of the two classes.
I can already guess how the Samurai will go down. The Gunslinger...I'm curious, actually.
The main issue with the gunslinger is he has no means of increasing his damage. He gets left in the dust since he can't use his additional attacks, and the single attack he does get may as well be a pebble. Also he is feat starved. However at lvl 11 things become much brighter, since as said, he is free of his restrictions.
I am curious about the Ninja though. How exactly did this Ninja play? What lvl was he? I'll be playtesting one tomorrow, can see my current build over in the results forum.
Im super excited about playing a ronin now.
But now that i've gotten used to the idea of playing one (and i have to qualify this because i hate hate hate bloating equipment with redundant weapons and armor, ie the sickle/kama...) I really dont like the feel of running around carrying a bastard sword and a short sword.
I psychologically NEED there to be a katana and wakizashi, and my play test ronin in scale mail sucks too (ha ha) I want my Do-maru!
I know its going to be the same thing, (more or less) but even writing katana, wakizashi and do maru on my character sheet doesnt help! Im still looking up the occidental stuff in the rule book.
Arg! by darn brain! make it stop!
Im super excited about playing a ronin now.
But now that i've gotten used to the idea of playing one (and i have to qualify this because i hate hate hate bloating equipment with redundant weapons and armor, ie the sickle/kama...) I really dont like the feel of running around carrying a bastard sword and a short sword.
I psychologically NEED there to be a katana and wakizashi, and my play test ronin in scale mail sucks too (ha ha) I want my Do-maru!
I know its going to be the same thing, (more or less) but even writing katana, wakizashi and do maru on my character sheet doesnt help! Im still looking up the occidental stuff in the rule book.
Arg! by darn brain! make it stop!
I got a chuckle out of this. Those weapons use those same stats but you are free to envision them as you will. Think of it this way. It's one thing to write "masterwork longsword" but in game is it just a "masterwork longsword"? Likely not. It'll probably be ornate, and may even have some intricate carvings and signs of its exceptional craftwork.
Think the same thing.
Is there a Japanese translation of PRPG?
Maybe looking up Bastard Sword stats in kana would treat your sensitivities better? ;-)
Thanks for the head's up on that one. I'll see how it goes down tomorrow. Well, he was level 15, with a 20 Charisma and an 18 Dex. For his base Ninja tricks, he took Vanishing Trick, Wall Climber, Shadow Clone and Fast Stealth. His three Master tricks were Ghost Step, Invisible Blade and Unbound Steps.What happened was that he maxed out his Stealth score, picked up fleet twice and just moved all out stealthily with Ghost Step. He was in and out of the dungeon without needing the others and was never caught. Any traps I had, he merely walked over with Unbound Steps or used Wall Climber. Ghost Step gave him Phase Door and thanks to his Fast Stealth, having a 40 ft. movement speed and if he needed to, he could pull out Invisible Blade to gain the effects of Greater Invisibility as a "last minute getaway button".
Hmm, you know, I honestly hadn't given serious thought to reading the Master Tricks, but I feel this ultimately could have been accomplished with a Wizard, and is ultimately the fault of your player.
Still, Ghost Step definitely needs to be toned down. 75 ft at lvl 15? I get it's lvl 15 but holy crap, that is a bit much.
no, my katana would then be squiggles in a box with some calligraphy x at the bottom and a stick man at the top, thats no good!
no, my katana would then be squiggles in a box with some calligraphy x at the bottom and a stick man at the top, thats no good!
Actually it would likely be written in katakana which would look more like various rigid lines followed by the usual 1d10 19-20/x2
:3
4. There is not need of a Samurai class. People want guns and they want Ninjas, but a Samurai class? "No really new mechanics/subsystems at play, like Grit or Ninja Ki Tricks, etc" so you can instead play a Fighter or a Fighter/Rogue or even a Cavalier or a Paladin and call it a Samurai.
Actually for me, I'd use a Samurai before a Gunslinger and ninja. I like all three, but I'd rather have a "fantasy style" Samurai alongside the historical one before I'd use either the Gunslinger or Ninja.
Actually, the ninja right now wouldn't even see play in my games. It's too powerful. The Gunslinger seems the best so far and doesn't need tweaking.
I haven't played any on the 3 new classes and I probably won't. That don't mean I must ruin things for others by saying they should not be published.
Samurai have no new mechanics so you can already create one now.The ninja have Ki so you can't really create that sort of character right now, but you could create a rogue and call him a ninja. Or a rogue/fighter or a rogue/bard or a fighter/bard or a Rogue/fighter/Bard or just a dex fighter with some charisma. Or a fighter/shadowdancer. etc.
They only class you can't create using the current rules is the gunslinger.
Me, I'm don't want a gunslinger or guns, but some people does. So now we get guns and gunslingers. I don't mind, but I won't play one.
Ninja, I'm not sure what they will end up doing about this, not to many people are willing to discuss changes and instead just want to get rid of it. Rather than offer advice they just blab on about just give rogue ki and ninja tricks and it will all be fine yada yada yada.
Yeah, +1. All the whining about how the Ninja steals the Rogues milkshake and is unnecessary and "why are asians so much better, waaah!?!" really isn't constructive feedback, IMO.
