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If you look at the monk's ki extra attack, it states a monk can make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack. . This reflects the monk who focuses his ki into a quick succession of strikes, i.e. one of the monks prime traits. The Ninja should focus his ki to exploit weaknesses in his enemy, i.e. Sneak Attack. His ki additional attack should only be allowed when making a full attack action and performing a sneak attack.
Or...
ninja using paralysis poison could benefit from being able to coup de grace as a standard action for a ki point.
IMHO is not intentional.
Good catch!
I don't think it can do that now, I'm jsut saying it a good augment to a sneak attack for a ki cost.
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I don't think it can do that now, I'm jsut saying it a good augment to a sneak attack for a ki cost.
Yes coup de grace is a special full round action so as is that won't work. But just as the monk must use his extra action to attack in flurry of blows, so should a ninja only be able to attack in sneak attack.
What really stuns me about this ability to make an extra attack is that its at level 2.
I really want to play a ninja 2/paladin 18 now. The synergy would be amazing, especially with an archer pally...
Devs ^
if people are wanting to dip into a class for this that should be a heads up.
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What really stuns me about this ability to make an extra attack is that its at level 2.
I really want to play a ninja 2/paladin 18 now. The synergy would be amazing, especially with an archer pally...
When making my optimized ninja builds I thought about this. From a role-playing perspective though the paladin which specifically states within his code of conduct "act with honor(not lying, not cheating, not using poison)" paired with a class that receives extensive training in the art of poison use... Just doesn't make sense. However, the anti-paladin may serve as a viable alternate. If you have the time maybe you would want to present a build on the DPR Olympics thread so we can see mathematically how this plays out? To be honest I'm a bit skeptical...
if this has been addressed already i apologize.
is a Ninja2/Monk4 able to use the ninja feature to gain an extra attack as part of a full attack as well as the monk feature to gain an extra attack as part of a full attack?
No because they are both swift actions. The major difference is that a ninja gets the extra attack when full attacking rather than flurrying. However the monk gets his level for BAB when flurrying. A ninja 2/monk 4 can ninja full attack at +4 or flurry at +3, but flurry gives you an extra attack in general, aside from the bonus Ki attack.
if this has been addressed already i apologize.
is a Ninja2/Monk4 able to use the ninja feature to gain an extra attack as part of a full attack as well as the monk feature to gain an extra attack as part of a full attack?No because they are both swift actions. The major difference is that a ninja gets the extra attack when full attacking rather than flurrying. However the monk gets his level for BAB when flurrying. A ninja 2/monk 4 can ninja full attack at +4 or flurry at +3, but flurry gives you an extra attack in general, aside from the bonus Ki attack.
Incorrect.
The ninja attack does NOT require a swift action, therefor it is stackable with Shuriken flurry and flurry of blows extra attack and monks extra attack.
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Incorrect.The ninja attack does NOT require a swift action, therefor it is stackable with Shuriken flurry and flurry of blows extra attack and monks extra attack.
Actually this is incorrect and Anburaid is right. After listing ki abilities you can do for the ninja and monk, it states "Each of these powers is activated as a swift action" So the extra attack may not be combined with flurry of blows or flurry of stars.
I wanted to add a further comparison here between the ninja ki and monk's ki abilities:
Monk's ki abilities:
1.Extra attack can only be done with monk weapons
2.Extra attack can only be done when doing a flurry of blows (special full round action)
3.Can grant a dodge bonus of +4 to AC
Ninja's ki abilities:
1.Extra attack can be done with all weapons
2.Extra attack can only be done when doing a full-attack action
3.Can grant a +4 skill bonus to Stealth
For 1.: Ninja has the advantage here, what would you guys think about restricting them to only ninja weapons?
For 2: Again, ninja's have the advantage. Restricting them to only sneak attacking IMHO makes sense and could be considered a special full round action.
For 3: The monk actually has the advantage here. +4 bonus to AC is much better than +4 to a skill. Take the feats dodge and skill focus for example. Dodge grants a +1 to AC while Skill Focus +3 to a skill. Shouldn't this be comparable in ki usage for +9 or +10 stealth bonus?
Incorrect.The ninja attack does NOT require a swift action, therefor it is stackable with Shuriken flurry and flurry of blows extra attack and monks extra attack.
Actually this is incorrect and Anburaid is right. After listing ki abilities you can do for the ninja and monk, it states "Each of these powers is activated as a swift action" So the extra attack may not be combined with flurry of blows or flurry of stars.
I wanted to add a further comparison here between the ninja ki and monk's ki abilities:
Monk's ki abilities:
1.Extra attack can only be done with monk weapons
2.Extra attack can only be done when doing a flurry of blows (special full round action)
3.Can grant a dodge bonus of +4 to ACNinja's ki abilities:
1.Extra attack can be done with all weapons
2.Extra attack can only be done when doing a full-attack action
3.Can grant a +4 skill bonus to StealthFor 1.: Ninja has the advantage here, what would you guys think about restricting them to only ninja weapons?
For 2: Again, ninja's have the advantage. Restricting them to only sneak attacking IMHO makes sense and could be considered a special full round action.
For 3: The monk actually has the advantage here. +4 bonus to AC is much better than +4 to a skill. Take the feats dodge and skill focus for example. Dodge grants a +1 to AC while Skill Focus +3 to a skill. Shouldn't this be comparable in ki usage for +9 or +10 stealth bonus?
Full attack is a full round action. So a ninja gets two attacks with his extra and a monk gets 3 with his....so how does the ninja win out on this one?
My mistake you are correct. Guess it pays to read the fine print.
I will say it is much better than monks options though as the monk can only do it while using FoB while a ninja can just do it whenever.
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Full attack is a full round action. So a ninja gets two attacks with his extra and a monk gets 3 with his....so how does the ninja win out on this one?
Zeus the lvl 10 Dwarven Zen Archer Monk:
Uses Composite LongbowDPR from flurry and deadly aim: 56.7
DPR with 1 ki point spent for additional attack (13/day):73.5
DPR with Perfect Strike on one of the lowest BAB attacks (10/day): 68.6196
DPR with 1 ki point and Perfect Strike: 85.4196
So a Zen Archer can do 68+ damage 23 rounds per day, or do 85 damage 10 rounds per day, or something somewhere in between.
(Merkatz DPR Olympics post 560)
Howard the Hungry Ghost Monk (lvl 10 monk)
Uses a temple sword
DPR from flurry and power attack: 54.61
DPR with 1 extra point of ki: 69.82
DPR with 1 extra ki and haste: 85.03
Extra DPR from steal ki ability: +5.47
By spending a ki point, something he can do 8 times a day, Howard’s DPR goes up to 64.35
(Carpy DM DPR Olympics post 553)
Tiny Tim (lvl 10 ninja)
Uses a scimitar
DPR from sneak attack and power attack: 63.98 with Bleed 5
DPR from sneak attack, power attack, and ki: 100.82
DPR with above and haste: 137.66
Has 11 ki points
My DPR Olympics post 617)
A note here I'm pretty sure all builds include the fact that they are flanking their opponent. If not then the monk builds would increase their DPR slightly but still not enough to match the ninja.
The ability to use all weapons allows the ninja to easily surpass the monk's flurry of blows in terms of DPR. So ninja's get the advantage. Anburaid knows the DPR boards better than me though and may be able to present a build that could beat the two monks above but they are the most recent monks posted.
Ooooo, are you allowed to forgo the prereqs for combat feats picked up with rogue talents/ninja tricks? It doesn't seem to say, so I am thinking you can't. Ranger and monk bonus feat features specifically say they can take those feats "even if the don't meet the prerequisites".
Not that I want to poke holes in Tiny Tim, as he is a pretty cool ninja IMHO. Although it would be pretty neat for him to have the Well-Prepared feat to pull out ninja tools from thin air :D
I find quite strange compare the flurry of the monk and the extra attack of the not considering the BAB involved, frankly.