ha ha i was first on this message board
ok but really what do people think of the way guns are handled
not looking for how much you hate the idea of them
I can cope with where they are now. I was hoping for more in the playtest honestly -- it's going to be hard to really use the gunslinger with a single barrel and leaving any sort of shotgun off wasn't the best choice in my opinion.
I think what we'll see is weapon options that can be applied to weapons when they are made. This would allow you to have double (or triple) barrel guns, guns that are better made, and guns attached to things like shields or weapons (I could see assessing a penalty to attack rolls for either weapon in this case).
The critical hit modifier I'm not in love with but then again what the heck -- we need some exaggeration with the firearms -- if only to give hollywood like effects.
I would like to see a rifle instead of musket so we have a ranged weapon but at this time I understand why we don't have that stuff.
Regardless it doesn't really matter since the gun stuff is set in stone according to the playtest.
x4 Crit says one thing and one thing alone: HEADSHOT!
where the guns they use all ready printed or something ??
.......WAIT THERE evil troll about to eat me, i cant sling guns till i pack all this black powder .....crap... i dropped it in the water... well crap(throws gun at troll)...
Guns will first appear in The Inner Sea World Guide.
I don't really like the concept of guns in a "medieval/fantasy" setting but I also don't like dinos in it either but this is merely a personal quibble. That said I like the rules for em and will be rolling Roland Deschain ASAP
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I like the way guns are handled. A high crit and punches through armor at short range. I think the cost is what will keep the weapons out of peasant army hands, but I could see some high level PCs loading up some followers with muskets (especially if cannons can provide support).
I like the way guns are handled. A high crit and punches through armor at short range. I think the cost is what will keep the weapons out of peasant army hands, but I could see some high level PCs loading up some followers with muskets (especially if cannons can provide support).
+1 agree
I really like the way they did firearms. Much better than in past D&D editions.
I think the guns in the playtest doc are really good, actually...but the ammo price is a bit...extreme. The gunpowder price I can kinda see (even if it makes a gun-focused character all but impossible to play) but 1 gp for a lead ball? Where's the reverse philosopher stone to turn my gold pieces into lead so I can make a killing on that? ^_-
Yeah that much gold for a small piece of lead is simply insane. Especially since "bullets" in the form that is being used with these weapons are made on the spot normally with a mold that comes with the gun.
It doesn't even really take a craft skill to do it.
Yeah that much gold for a small piece of lead is simply insane. Especially since "bullets" in the form that is being used with these weapons are made on the spot normally with a mold that comes with the gun.
It doesn't even really take a craft skill to do it.
+1 most guns came with a small container to melt metal in and the mold to poor it in.
Yeah that much gold for a small piece of lead is simply insane. Especially since "bullets" in the form that is being used with these weapons are made on the spot normally with a mold that comes with the gun.
It doesn't even really take a craft skill to do it.
I remember watching "the patriot" were in a scene mel gibson melts down some lead army men that were once his sons, and put them in a bullet cast to make more ammo.
So the question is... is the cost representative of how rare lead is currently? Or the cost of casting the bullet?
Seems like if you can get lead, you could cast your own with craft skill pretty easily.
even sling "bullets" are around by now (as opposed to just sling stones)
remember however that these early pistols had insanely large bores (75 calibre or more...85 wasnt unheard of) and so these 'bullets' have much more lead than what we are used to thinking of in modern days.
.45 cal is considered "huge" for a handgun and the amount of powder required to fire it is infinitely tiny in comparison to early models.
.85 cal is like tossing something with the diameter of a quarter.
that IS alot of lead.
1 gp for bullet and 10 gold for dose of blackpowder... ouch.
Would think would be a better price range.
1 sp = 10 bullets
1 gp = 10 dose of black powder.
Pendagast I'll ask you -- how much do you think one of those bullets should weigh? A pound of iron is 1 gp -- so it seems to me that lead should be about 1/10 of that (it is traditionally a much more common less valuable metal) which would be about a silver for a pound. How many shots do you think you could get out of that?
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I know this isn't very fantasy like, but where is my sniper rifle? :)
On a more serious note, Ive only done a first quick perusal of the gunslinger, but it seems bullets will be an issue at low levels. Granted you start with 50, so that should help alleviate some of the problem, but if you lose any of those you might have trouble using your class defining weapons for a while. And I was confused on the 20 foot range increments until I saw the targeting touch AC part. Still think you should be able to hit past 100 feet, but these aren't modern weapons. I'd think basing them off civil war era firearms would be the way to go. Seeing as how i know pretty much next to nothing on guns, I don't know if they already are.
Next I have a question on the damage of these guns. Do they get an bonus damage from strength? Dex? Or are they just straight 1d8, 1d12? I just dont see how guns can do any damage at higher levels when your damage really comes from the + ## and not from the base damage dice itself. Am I missing something here? For the expense, it seems like they dont offer much in the way of damage at higher levels.
I totally understand that balancing the guns will be a very tricky issue though, so its not going to please everyone. Just trying to work through my initial thoughts after a very quick read through.
I think the cost of bullets and powder is largely irrelevant as long as guns only hold one shot.
The inability to make a proper full attack without carrying a Handy Haversack full of guns (preloaded with magic bullets, because getting that many magic guns is financially infeasible) kills the Gunslinger in its crib.
Considering how much the weapon costs, I'm not sure I like the fact that they'll be broken every 20 shots (pistol) or every 10 shots (musket) on average.
Considering how much the weapon costs, I'm not sure I like the fact that they'll be broken every 20 shots (pistol) or every 10 shots (musket) on average.
A gunslinger can repair is gun for 1 grit at level 1 as a standard action. At higher level, you can enchant your gun so that it doesn't explode anymore.
I don't think we'll see a lot of gun explosions in a gunslinger hands.
So for 2000 gp, you can reduce a musket to exploding every 20 shots and ... do NOTHING to change the pistol.
For 32,000gp you can have a gun that doesn't explode. Great. Once you hit level 12 your 1000+gp guns can be enchanted to not explode every 20 shots any more.
Firearms need to be COMPLETELY overhauled to even consider being added to the game for use by anyone. Sadly that won't happen.
I personally wish they'd throw the misfire mechanic out the window in its entirety.
Take a Wizard who happens to roll a 1 for his Scorching Ray - does the spell explode in his face due to a lack of concentration? Or the Alchemist even - each time he mixes his highly volatile mixtures in the middle of battle, does he have to roll to see if it explodes in his face? Heck, is there a d% chance of a Cleric trying to channel energy to have his/her deity say "screw you" and deny them their divine power?
Ranty, I know, but I just don't like the mechanic. It would be an interesting way to balance guns, if they were that powerful to begin with.
I don't even know if I should get started on the ammo thing.
I personally wish they'd throw the misfire mechanic out the window in its entirety.
Take a Wizard who happens to roll a 1 for his Scorching Ray - does the spell explode in his face due to a lack of concentration? Or the Alchemist even - each time he mixes his highly volatile mixtures in the middle of battle, does he have to roll to see if it explodes in his face? Heck, is there a d% chance of a Cleric trying to channel energy to have his/her deity say "screw you" and deny them their divine power?
Ranty, I know, but I just don't like the mechanic. It would be an interesting way to balance guns, if they were that powerful to begin with.
I don't even know if I should get started on the ammo thing.
I DO think the ammo is way to expensive. I could see 1-5GP per powder shot MAYBE, but the lead balls shouldn't be too costly.
As far as misfire goes, it kinda goes hand and hand with the musketeer/early firearms imagery. They DID misfire a lot, and you see it quite often in movies. Its true that wizards and clerics don't have horrible things happen to them when they roll a one (though they do waste the spell), I AM in favor of the alchemist's elixirs (especially the bombs) going bad if they roll a one. I've even made that decision when I've played one, having one of my incendiary bombs go off in my face and having to drop and put myself out before calmly getting up and resuming the fight. "What? huh? oh yeah...I'm fine...nothing to see here!"
So for 2000 gp, you can reduce a musket to exploding every 20 shots and ... do NOTHING to change the pistol.For 32,000gp you can have a gun that doesn't explode. Great. Once you hit level 12 your 1000+gp guns can be enchanted to not explode every 20 shots any more.
Firearms need to be COMPLETELY overhauled to even consider being added to the game for use by anyone. Sadly that won't happen.
For 2000 gp, you can make you pistol explode 1 every 10 shots even if it's broken. And, as the musket as a lower fire rate, it will explode about as often as the pistol.
With the grit repair, a little craft and mending from a friendly spell caster, I really don't see a gun exploding very often in able hands.
Still, Gun training should give some kind of save in case of misfire or explosion as an unlucky gunslinger could lose his magical weapon just because he rolled badly.
The point is it takes a significant investment in money to try and just REDUCE the chance your gun will break then explode. And that doesn't even count in the having to find Clerics to fix it or spending precious class ability points to fix it. Firearm mechanics are just bad. It is the epitome of trying to have your cake and eat it to.
As far as misfire goes, it kinda goes hand and hand with the musketeer/early firearms imagery. They DID misfire a lot, and you see it quite often in movies. Its true that wizards and clerics don't have horrible things happen to them when they roll a one (though they do waste the spell), I AM in favor of the alchemist's elixirs (especially the bombs) going bad if they roll a one. I've even made that decision when I've played one, having one of my incendiary bombs go off in my face and having to drop and put myself out before calmly getting up and resuming the fight. "What? huh? oh yeah...I'm fine...nothing to see here!"
But the problem is that for all other classes and mechanics, something HORRIBLE going wrong on a 1 is a houserule. Here it is being written into the rules themselves either as a balance (a balance for what, I have no idea) or to make them more realistic or at least more unique.
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But the problem is that for all other classes and mechanics, something HORRIBLE going wrong on a 1 is a houserule. Here it is being written into the rules themselves either as a balance (a balance for what, I have no idea) or to make them more realistic or at least more unique.
As far as misfire goes, it kinda goes hand and hand with the musketeer/early firearms imagery. They DID misfire a lot, and you see it quite often in movies. Its true that wizards and clerics don't have horrible things happen to them when they roll a one (though they do waste the spell), I AM in favor of the alchemist's elixirs (especially the bombs) going bad if they roll a one. I've even made that decision when I've played one, having one of my incendiary bombs go off in my face and having to drop and put myself out before calmly getting up and resuming the fight. "What? huh? oh yeah...I'm fine...nothing to see here!"
To be fair, in the campaign setting, where these rules first appeared, the missfire mechanic is optional, and I think it will be *those* rules in the final book, rather than this cutdown ruleset.
Then again, take a rank in gunslinger, sell the guns (2 pistols)for 4kgp, then start taking ranks in the class you want, and you are onto a winner...
And people said the "free masterwork weapon at level 1" talent was over-powered!
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But the problem is that for all other classes and mechanics, something HORRIBLE going wrong on a 1 is a houserule. Here it is being written into the rules themselves either as a balance (a balance for what, I have no idea) or to make them more realistic or at least more unique.
I can definitely see your point there, and hopefully they'll make it a suggested optional rule instead of automatically built in. In the PFCS, I made a gunslinger from Alkenstar who used both the exploding dice AND the misfire rules and it balanced out nicely.
I think i would be more comfortable with a misfire on a one, and an actual damaging effect if you CONFIRM your one, in other words, two ones in a row, a much lower chance, but still there. You'd still misfire on a one and have to spend a round clearing your weapon (or use grit) but you'd only suffer damaging effects on 1 shot in 400 rather than 1 in 20
The guns are terribly unbalanced, and not in the "good" way either.
Pros
1) target Touch AC, meaning that they usually hit reliably
Cons
1) Have very small range increments; shooting outside of the range increment forces you to target normal AC, on top of the to hit penalties
2) Essentially have a 1/20 chance of being broken whenever you fire it; then, they have an even higher chance of blowing up completely.
3) The ammo comes in two parts, and is ridiculously expensive.
4) The guns themselves are ridiculously expensive - it doesn't help that the gunslinger gets them for free.
5) Have a considerable feat tax just to mitigate the above issues
I really want to love the Gunslinger, but as it is now, I just can't picture it working.
I'd have to take the "Rich Parents" trait every time.
Pendagast I'll ask you -- how much do you think one of those bullets should weigh? A pound of iron is 1 gp -- so it seems to me that lead should be about 1/10 of that (it is traditionally a much more common less valuable metal) which would be about a silver for a pound. How many shots do you think you could get out of that?
weigh?
hmmm, well its been a long while since I held an authentic .75 calibre or .84 calibre lead minnie ball.
modern rounds are no longer made from lead.
Lead Is actually in it's pure form, quite heavy.
the size bullet we are talking about is remarkable similar to a shot gun slug (.69) just to give you a modern idea.
The .75 calibre minnie ball was rumored to be about 700 grains (I hate english weights and measures) so roughly 1 3/4 ounces.
so say an .84 cal bullet is going to weigh 2 ounces.
Edit: well wait whats the weigh of a coin? how many coins in a pound, i know that has to be somewhere.....gosh this is gonna take alot of book flipping.
so what is that 8 rounds to a pound?
so for 1 gold per bullet, that would be 8 gold for a pound of lead?
going with that conversion, it sounds like the opposite of what it should be (gold is less valuable than lead)
Sooooo I think they got the pricing utterly wrong on ammunition.
Is that what you were looking for?
I would say in my opinion if you roll a "1" the not only does the weapon misfire and need to be reloaded (the powder burnt but did not fire the road) but it gets 'broken' and needs to be fixed.
that would be cool enough to have it happen occasionally with out it happening every 10 rounds. (which essentially is every minute)
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The Nobis Campaign Setting has a decent chart entitled the "Firearms Failure Table". Albeit the firearms in the Nobis Campaign are either Wheel-Lock or Breach-Loading, but besides the whole rolling a natural '1' (which I require confirmation on regardless - after all, if I have to roll to confirm a critical then why should I get a critical fumble without rolling to confirm - Personal Houserule here) you roll on this table for a variety of options. Sometimes, the charge explodes dealing 1d6 damage to the gunwielder and sometimes its simply a misfire where the charge is lost. Other times the gun is rendered 'broken' by some fluke (round skips down barrel, bending and rendering the weapon useless or the charge ruptures the chamber).
Paizo! we need a new critical fumble deck! and a critical hit deck, so we can include fire arms, chop chop!