Which reminds me of a minor benefit of going pure elf. Since you don't sleep, your eidolon does not poof at night.
The whole elves don't sleep or only sleep a few hours thing is not in the pathfinder write up on elves.
Which reminds me of a minor benefit of going pure elf. Since you don't sleep, your eidolon does not poof at night.The whole elves don't sleep or only sleep a few hours thing is not in the pathfinder write up on elves.
Indeed. I'm gonna have to bring this up to at my next session.
I have never found a use for a Lantern archon - though it sounds useful, an Auroch has never failed to be more useful.
Fight a tin can cleric with stoneskin up.
Your summons simply miss them, and when they connect the stoneskin eats most of the damage.
In other words, when you want some touch attacks that ignore DR.
-James
This. They're not the most useful summon of their respective level, but their abilities are unique enough to warrant summoning them in specific circumstances. They certainly made fighting golems easier for my team.
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So someone that has had some extensive playtime with a Biped with bite(and assuming you can use improved bite as well) what does the fully developed Eidolon build look like assuming 20th level? Do you incorporate slam then as well?
The Eidolon builds that are posted look good I'm just a little curious about some of the archetypes using the Biped form since I've had very little experience playing with that Eidolon. The slugger sounds pretty interesting as well.
This. They're not the most useful summon of their respective level, but their abilities are unique enough to warrant summoning them in specific circumstances. They certainly made fighting golems easier for my team.I have never found a use for a Lantern archon - though it sounds useful, an Auroch has never failed to be more useful.
Fight a tin can cleric with stoneskin up.
Your summons simply miss them, and when they connect the stoneskin eats most of the damage.
In other words, when you want some touch attacks that ignore DR.
-James
Yeah, I typically don't view the summons as something there to help slug out against the enemy unless the numbers are weighted against us. I see it much more of a wild card, effectively serves as spontaneous casting for a small set of stuff. Gotta maximize that versatility with spontaneous casters, especially if it comes without the 20% real penalty.
Considered agile maneuvers, but it becomes sub-par as soon as you hit Large size (which you'll need to Grab medium-sized enemies).
Well the reasoning for Agile Manuevers is this:
Str/Dex Bonus: Add this modifier to the eidolon's Strength and Dexterity scores, as determined by its base form. Some options available through the eidolon's evolution pool might modify these scores.
It would seem that the bonus would get added to a serpentine's dex. Thus you'll easily get quite a few +'s to your CMB as a large serp. Since with a serp. you probably won't be going for the maximum size cheese, you only need to really hit medium things which can be done with enlarge person so the difference will be quite significant. There already is a shortage on ways to boost CMB as is, granted I haven't looked at the Ultimate Books yet though.
Heh. I'll have my hands full just doing the eidolon builds I've already got for now. If you could write either of those up, I'd appreciate it.
I think I'll have them up tomorrow or later tonight.
A heightened create pit serves much the same purpose and leaves you with effectively more upper level spells. The damage really isn't relevant, it's the fact that they're...Create pit caps at 30ft, heighten requires both a feat and a full round action to cast.
All of these speak more to fitting in it at a level where you're not finding so many useful spells such as you do with your 2nd and 3rd level spells list.
Still its great on a scroll for moving a fellow PC away from a full attack.
Actually if you go strictly RAW, summoner metamagics do not require the additional casting time.
Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spell's normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard (except for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which take 1 swift action to cast). Note that this isn't the same as a spell with a 1-round casting time. Spells that take a full-round action to cast take effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you are not required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.
The additional casting time only appears affect clerics, druids, sorcerors, and bards. Any other classes with spontaneous casting abilities are unaffected. I'm pretty sure that they do mean for any spontaneous caster, but if you go by the letter the APG casters are unaffected.
Actually if you go strictly RAW, summoner metamagics do not require the additional casting time.
Well honestly I had hoped Paizo would simply do away with the rule entirely.
That said, this seems a better FAQ question which one would assume would be extended for all spontaneous casting.
Mind you with the Summoner having so many exceptions and special rules who knows?
-James
Yeah, I house-rule away myself. Though that requires fixing the arcane bloodline, but it's capstone is 100% completely broken anyways.
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Saph, again I appreciate your hard work, but frankly so far someone who follows the guide will produce an underpowered summoner for combat. For example, your biped build has this full attack round:
Greatsword +5 (2d6+6)
"... this maximizes hitting power. When Enlarged this boasts a greatsword attack dealing an impressive 3d6+7 damage ..."
This damage is less than half compared to a Biped with Summoners Call (Strength), power attack feat, and the evolutions Bite and Str+2:
Bite: +5, d6+7 and Claw: +5, d4+7 and Claw: +5, d4+7
Or evolutions of Bite, Improved Bite and Reach:
Bite: +4, d6+9 and Claw: +4, d4+6 and Claw: +4, d4+6
Your damage range is 8-18 instead of 24-35. Hardly maximized hitting power. Not to mention you can only attack/kill one NPC instead of up to 3 per round.
I appreciate that you want to give people lots of options but you fail to mention arguably the most important option: the summoner maximized for combat effectiveness. This would include Half-Elf, Biped, Improved Bite, Trip-Bite, Resistance and other things that are underrated in your guide for other builds.
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Which seems like it can assume the form of any small or medium humanoid.
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type.
Which is exactly what it does for 1m/ level which is the big limiter for this. One of the developers was talking about a dragon or another huge creature using alter self for exactly this purpose.
I do not believe it would let you remove the big glowing rune from your eidolon's forehead since it specifically says that cannot be concealed magically.
Unfortunately almost all of the ways to shrink your eidolon are limited to 1m/ level. It's also worth mentioning that spells take a standard action to dismiss so it probably makes more sense to not bring your eidolon into town and use summon eidolon if you need to get your eidlon in a pinch.
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So... weird strategy thought.
For a high level summoner it might make more sense to wear a second level ring of wizardry and take Spell Perfection (Summon Eidolon) then use quicken to summon your eidolon rather than keep it around. You get to place the eidolon strategically and maintain use of your SLA.
If augment summoning works when you summon your eidolon in this way (did the developers ever address that?) that makes it even more viable.
Heck at low levels you might be able to use extend with the Magical Lineage trait to use him most of the time too. Only fully summoning the eidolon when you run out of SLA uses or second level spells.
Nom-beast: Meant to out-right kill one person at a time while not being a glass cannon. (Biped half-elf build)
Level 1:
Evos:
Bite, Energy
Feats:
IUS
Level 5:
Evos:
Bite, Slam, Energy, Trip, 3 left for setting appropriate
Feats:
IUS, Improved Grapple (qualify for this by taking advantage of ability score increase, and later put a point into dex at level 5)
Stat boost: Dex
Level 10:
You should get your Eidolon a +2 dex belt before making it large
Evos:
Large, Swallow Whole, Bite, Grab (bite), Improved Damage (bite), Reach (bite), 4 left for preference / aspect
Feats:
IUS, Improved Grapple, INA (bite), Greater Grapple (I like this over lunge here to make eating quick and easy)
Stat boost: Con
Level 15:
a +4 dex belt shouldn't be too taxing by level 13
Evos:
Huge, Swallow Whole, Bite, Grab, ID, Reach, 5 extra
Feats:
IUS, IG, INA, GG, Lunge, preference
Stat: I like Int for the sudden burst in skills.
Level 20:
Same basic build except a lot more room for things with 13 evos left
Feats:
An additional 2 spare feats
Notes: The breathing room comes from not worrying about the full round attack. Combat should go as follows:
Charge, Grab
Eat, Grab
Repeat
If you can eat a caster you don't have to worry about it casting inside because the check is 10+spell level+CMB. They can't make ~50+level at level 20. Another anti-caster tactic is to boost up that acrobatics and use an evo for a +8 and skill focus for another +6 (total +29@level20) and simply charge up to the caster and eat them.
If augment summoning works when you summon your eidolon in this way (did the developers ever address that?) that makes it even more viable.
Of course it works it's a summoning spell.
Mind you the rub comes from whether or not you can summon the eidolon with gear or without.
-James
Yeah, the rules are silent on this issue.
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If augment summoning works when you summon your eidolon in this way (did the developers ever address that?) that makes it even more viable.
Of course it works it's a summoning spell.
Mind you the rub comes from whether or not you can summon the eidolon with gear or without.
Fair enough. This just makes the idea of using the Summon Eidolon spell more appealing.
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<Flank Buddy> (1st Level)
Form: quadruped
AC: 19 (23 with mage armor, stacking 27 shield)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40'
Size: Small
Ability Scores: <10 16 13 7 10 11>
Chosen Skills: <Acrobatics(1)> +15, <Sleight of Hand(1)> +7, <2 others>
Base Skills: <Perception(1)> +12, <Stealth(1)> +11
Feats: Dodge (1st)
Evolutions (base): bite, limbs(legs), limbs(legs)
Evolutions (extra): Skilled(Acrobatics)(1), Skilled(Perception)(1), Imp Nat Armor(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +2 (1d4+0)
Notes: This build walks point. He has the best perception bonus of anyone in the party. If he sets off a trap that does more than 15-20 points damage, he will be back tomorrow, with a hangover, instead of dead. In a battle, he uses acrobatics to move through threatened squares with near immunity to get into flank. Readying to aid another once a compatriot moves to their flank position, then performs Aid Another so the compatriot gets a combined +4 to their attack. He doesn't take Weapon Finesse, because feats cannot be swapped out when he transmogrifies into a strength based attacker later. Dodge is always nice, but pick a feat that will be useful throughout his career. He is not the kill stealing star of the show. He makes everyone elses jobs safer and easier.
Accompanying Summoner:
Str 16, Cha 12, Heirloom Greatsword, does 2d6+4 damage, with either +5, +7 or +9 to hit. Spells: Shield, Expeditious Retreat. If the party doesn't have planning or surprise, neither spell is a required cast. But, when you have the timing advantage, they are quite useful. This summoner should be built for fighting.
PFS: After the 1st, module, pick up a wand of Mage Armor for 2PA. 2nd module, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon.
Kitty! (half-elf quadruped)
Level 1:
Evos:
Claws, pounce, Improved damage (claws)
Feats:
Power Attack
Level 5:
Evos:
Claws, pounce, Improved damage (claws), Energy attacks, 4 extras
Feats:
Power Attack, Improved Overrun
Level 10:
Evos:
Claws (2), Legs, Pounce, ID, Energy, Large, Rend, 2 extras
Feats:
Power Attack, Improved Overrun, Charge Through, Greater Overrun
Level 15:
Evos:
Claws (2), Legs, Pounce, Huge, 6 extras
Feats:
PA, IO, CT, GO, Dazing Assault, 1 other
Level 20:
Evos:
Claws (3), Legs (2), Pounce, Huge, 13 extra
Feats:
PA, IO, CT, Dazing, GO, 3 others
Strategy, Charge Squishy, daze squishy, also with greater overrun your AoO can be used to daze the clanky that you had to charge through. This build switches focus when it hits level 14. It switches from a DPR build to a BC build. At the start it tries to either completely mow down or otherwise take the squishy out of the fight. When it gets Dazing Assault, it tries to go the stun lock route throwing multiple DC 20+ saves at the bad guys. This can just about completely lock down 2 people. This kind of build will probably go with a Rod of Dazing Spell just to maximize the amount of dazing.
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If augment summoning works when you summon your eidolon in this way (did the developers ever address that?) that makes it even more viable.
Of course it works it's a summoning spell.
Mind you the rub comes from whether or not you can summon the eidolon with gear or without.
-James
I would think that it would come with gear...I mean, when you summon a Bralani Azata it comes with his magical scimitar, no? The gear would just go back with the Eidolon once the spell ended, regardless of whether he dropped it or not.
In Fang Vs Blade - Whether to Wield a Weapon in post #6:
Natural Weapons also get an additional attack from haste, referenced here
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Pg. 60 of the Advanced Players Guide
"Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."
stuff
Simple answer.... free evolutions are not selected... the wording specifically states evolutions cannot be selected more than once, unless otherwise stated.
Is there an official errata somewhere? The text of Pathfinder Haste is pretty specific that it only works on weapons the creature is holding.In Fang Vs Blade - Whether to Wield a Weapon in post #6:
Natural Weapons also get an additional attack from haste, referenced here
Not that I could find, but there is a response by James Jacobs. You can value that how you like.
I am surprised Dodge did not make an appearance in the Eidolon feat selection. It may not be flashy, but it is a solid choice that is always relevant. Regardless what form your Eidolon may take.
For the flank buddy summoner: I think the Precise Strike teamwork feat could be very effective (but both the summoner and Eidolon have to take it of course). It may encourage other party members to pick it up as well. Just a fun idea that occurred to me :)
Here is an Eidolon build for consideration. Generally, I would go more for flavor and make the Eidolon as dragon-like as possible. Getting the claws and Tail Slap ASAP, but this is more for optimization.
Form: <quadruped>
AC: 14 (10 Base, +2 NA, +2 Dex)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40’
Ability Scores: <Str 16 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11>
Skills: Acrobatics +6, Fly +6, Stealth +6, Perception +4,
Feats: Power Attack (1st)
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs(legs)x2
Evolutions (extra): Ability Increase(Str)(2), Mount(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +3 (1d6+5)
Notes: With a Human with MWP(Lance) and Mounted Combat and Enlarge Person on the Eidolon.
Form: <quadruped>
AC: 19 (10 Base, +2 NA, +4 AB, +3 Dex)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40’
Ability Scores: <Str 19 Dex 16 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11>
Skills: Acrobatics +10, Fly +14, Stealth +10, Perception +7,
Feats: Power Attack (1st), Flyby Attack (3rd)
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs(legs)x2
Evolutions (extra): Ability Increase(Strength)(2), Bite(1), Claws(1), Mount(1), Flight(2), Pounce(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +6 (1d6+12), 2 claws +6 (1d4+4)
Notes: Human will now have Ride-by Attack.
Form: <quadruped>
AC: 25 (10 Base, +2 NA, +8 AB, +3 Dex, +2 NA(Large), +1 Dodge, -1 Size)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40’
Ability Scores: <Str 30 Dex 16 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11>
Skills: Acrobatics +14, Fly +14, Stealth +14, Perception +11,
Feats: Power Attack (1st), Flyby Attack (3rd), Dodge
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs(legs)x2
Evolutions (extra): Ability Increase(Strength)(2), Bite(1), Claws(1), Large(4), Mount(1), Flight(2), Pounce(2), Tail(1), Tail Slap(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +15 (1d8+24), 2 claws +15 (1d4+16), and Tail Slap +13(1d6+8)
Notes: Human will now have Spirited Charge.
EDIT: I still think Claws, and pounce may be better than Ability Increase at level 1. Given that you should be charging as much as possible and getting a +2 to attack.
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Regarding when Imp Natural Armor can be taken, Joshua said
As for the Improved Natural Armor evolution, that last sentence is unfortunately not very clear. Here's the intent and how you should handle it until the class is finalized:
The intent was that you could take it at level 1, level 10, level 15, and level 20. So it should read something like, "This evolution may be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses, minimum level 1." So you could take it at level 1, but then you'd need ten summoner levels to take it again (level 10), 15 summoner levels to take it a third time, and 20 summoner levels to take it a fourth time.
Hope this helps!
so that should tip the balance on the issue that you noted under Other Evolutions. But, since it didn't make it into the official errata, it is still open for interpretation.
For the flank buddy summoner: I think the Precise Strike teamwork feat could be very effective (but both the summoner and Eidolon have to take it of course). It may encourage other party members to pick it up as well. Just a fun idea that occurred to me :)
I have that with my flank buddy battle llama. But, since Precise Strike requires +1 BAB, they wait to take the feat at level 3. Buying an Amulet of Mighty Fists +0 Shocking at about level 4, the eidolon's claw/claw/bite routine starts to rack up serious damage potential at 7d6+2d4+6 for medium.
@Torinath: your 10th lvl evolution has 2 points to much, STR+2 costs you 4 evolution points, as your eidolon is large. Made the same mistake, and yes, it sucks.
@Torinath: your 10th lvl evolution has 2 points to much, STR+2 costs you 4 evolution points, as your eidolon is large. Made the same mistake, and yes, it sucks.
Where does it say the ability cost is double for a large Eidolon?
It is a good thing you said something, He should be legal now.Form: <quadruped>
AC: 25 (10 Base, +2 NA, +8 AB, +3 Dex, +2 NA(Large), +1 Dodge, -1 Size)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40’
Ability Scores: <Str 28 Dex 16 Con 17 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 11>
Skills: Acrobatics +14, Fly +14, Stealth +14, Perception +11,
Feats: Power Attack (1st), Flyby Attack (3rd), Dodge
Evolutions (base): Bite, Limbs(legs)x2
Evolutions (extra): Bite(1), Claws(1), Energy Attacks(2) Large(4), Mount(1), Flight(2), Pounce(1), Tail(1), Tail Slap(1)
Attack Routine: Bite +13 (1d8+1d6+22), 2 claws +13 (1d4+1d6+15), and Tail Slap +11(1d6+1d6+7)
Notes: Human will now have Spirited Charge.
Yes, it is hidden, should be under ability increase.
Btw., for a large eidolon claws are 1d6 and tail 1d8.
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The first item to buy for the eidolon, who is natural attack based, is the Amulet of Natural Fists, +0, (element of preference). For 5,000 gp, it is adding 3.5 average damage per attack, while the Belt of strength +2 is adding +1 damage, or +1.5 if it is power attacking, for a cost of 4,000 gp. If crafting is available in your game, adding Amulet of Natural Armor to the AoMF would be +3,000 gp for +1, or +12,000 gp for +2.
For the summoner, a Ring of Forcefangs should be near the top of the shopping list. Negate Magic Missle, and add the spell to my repertoire? Yes.