I've noticed repeatedly comments in various threads by players and the game developers that buying magical items is common place.
Now, Pathfinder Society ASIDE (please), how many GMs out there really have players buying magical items like most of us buy appliances at the local store?
A simple Yes/No is good, but comments and advice are appreciated :)
Thanks!
Ken
Yes. (Assuming they have access to a big enough city for what they want to buy, every exact thing they want may not be available instantly, etc. -- but basically, yes.)
The main problem with not (unless you try very hard to correct for it) is that scarcity of magic item choice impacts weaker characters more than stronger characters. I'd rather not kick the argument of which classes those are and why, but you can find numerous other threads about that piece of it around if you're curious.
Or, if you want to put that argument aside for a moment, it impacts characters that have a harder time crafting what they want more than characters who have an easy time crafting what they want -- and RAW, even with literally no downtime crafting still happens.
I big cities, I allow players to buy more "common' magic items, or custom order better/unique magic items from resident mages.
In other words, pretty much, yes.
In large cities? Yes. Depends on the value of the item, sure, but some things are simply that common. In my airship game, the continents float in mid-air and thus slippers of spider climbing and rings of feather falling are common enough that they could, if they wanted, buy them in virtually ANY port they come across.
Yes. Most of the time they're not a problem, but if they get too greedy, then I just have the seller tell them that he doesn't have what they want, but for a 'small fee' will start a search for it. You need to, as others have said, mind the city's limitations on availability, too.
I actually wrote a program to generate magical items for sale in cities, based on size/value. It's all from the Magic Item Compendium tables.
Then, I print out 'Visit 1', 'Visit 2', 'Visit 3' lists of pregenerated lists. If I think it's a city they'll visit often, I just print out a list before each game.
Then, when they reach a city and start looking around, and let it be kown they're looking for stuff, people crawl out of the woodwork offering things, shopkeepers pull out he special stuff, and they go shopping.
If they want a specific item and can't find it, they have to commission it at a large enough city, or make it themselves.
Yes I allow my players to buy magical items according to the rules in the core book. That said I think it takes away a lot of the wonder from magical items (as do the crafting system), but the game is balanced around pc's having a certain amount of magical gear according to their level. If you remove the pc's chance of getting magical items you will upset the games balance and the pc's might not be able to handle appropriate challenges as written.
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I've noticed repeatedly comments in various threads by players and the game developers that buying magical items is common place.
Now, Pathfinder Society ASIDE (please), how many GMs out there really have players buying magical items like most of us buy appliances at the local store?
A simple Yes/No is good, but comments and advice are appreciated :)
Thanks!
Ken
Personally, I don't have 'ye olde magic shop' but weapons shops/blacksmiths are stocked with magical items... usually they have mostly items under +2 or less value, with a total if 15-20 objects higher... all of these items are rolled randomly before the session. They can special order a particular item if they can wait for 3D6 weeks (rerolling 1s if they are asking for anything particularly hard to find)
No and no.
Depends on the Campaign setting.
(magic item cost changed to Silver; except Masterwork items and Material Component cost still in Gold) = Mast Production.
<NPC wages are 10 times greater than listed in PHB>
(magic item cost changed to copper; except Masterwork items and Material Component cost still in gold) = Mast Production.
<NPC wage are still 10 time greater than listed in PHB>
....
It really just depends on the game world.
Depends on where they are.
For example, the party of adventurers I'm running was just in Daggermark, home of both the Assassins' Guild and the Poisoners' Guild. I told them that if they wanted any alchemical substance or poison, now was the time to pick it up, because the shopkeepers would happily sell it to them, and the only problem with getting anything would be running out of stock, not something being illegal.
Later, they got into a town with a Coliseum and big business with gladiator stuff. I told them that anything related to that, including all reasonable healing magics, would be for sale with no trouble. Anything beyond that, ask.
I don't believe in every town having a magical mage-mart on every corner with infinite supplies of everything or the ability to order it with instantaneous shipping via teleport. But if a city is known for a certain good or a certain business, all the items related to that should be available there.
Yes but it's not like running down to Target to pick up a fancy wand. You need to go to the right places to begin with:
1) Arcane scrolls, potions, wands: wizard schools, libraries, local wizards
2) Divine scrolls, potions, wands: places of worship
3) Everything else you need to search for. The Diplomacy DC is equal to the caster level of the item. You gain a bonus equal to the Economy modifier of the settlement. You are limited to the purchase limit of the settlement. If you want to find something that would be beyond that limit, then the DC increases by +5 for every settlement size difference. So if you are in a Thorpe and are looking a Manual of Bodily Health +4, then the DC is 17 + 35 = 52. If he is looking in a Large Town then the DC is 17 + 15 = 32. This will only give him an idea of who may have the item he seeks. It doesn't mean that he will automatically get the item.
I don't have magic item shops. Just because you may have found someone with the item doesn't meant that person is willing to just cough it up for the Blue Book value. You may be able to haggle or negotiate to adjust the price. This is where role playing comes in handy but it I don't want to spend more than a few minutes shopping so I let the player speak his piece and then we do a quick Diplomacy roll to see how well you did. Usually the owner is Indifferent. If the owner is Unfriendly then the cost increases by 10%. If the owner is Hostile then the price increases by 25% or more. If the owner is Friendly, the cost is reduced by 10%. If the owner is Helpful then the cost is reduced by 25% or more.
Yes.
The items that are spectacular and wondrous and interesting? You find those, hidden away in dark crevices or temples, being used by malcontents or monsters, left behind by ancient peoples. It doesn't mean that normal magic items can't be interesting.
When it comes down to it, describing the bracers of armor +1 the wizard bought as a strand of 108 prayer beads or maybe a collection of gold-stamped cat charms helps ground the magic in the game and less in the book. Besides the snazzy description I can give a cloak of resistance +1, after a long time of gaming, no one is excited or bedazzled or even struck in awe by a +1 to AC or to saves. It takes the really special stuff that you can use creatively to get people's gears turning ("You mean this gauntlet actually has screwed itself into my wrist... and I can fire my fist as a grappling hook? You mean it has a mind of its own, too? And an eye on the back of the hand I can see out of?!").
I've actually had players gush more over completely mundane items than magic items. In a recent game, for his heroism, I had the members of the Varisian community make him a sturdy trench coat with the Varisian saying for 'Good luck' (Let me live) on the back. You'd think he didn't even get full access to the city's armory as well by the amount he treasured that jacket.
But even snazzing items up with cool descriptions or minor cosmetic features can backfire. Like...
"That item's an upgrade for you-- why don't you use it?"
"Oh. You described it as a pair of rubber yellow gloves and I think that looks stupid."
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Yah you betcha! Have since I started running games back in 2nd edition. If I didn't, I'd have players taking all the craft feats and making them at half price, so by allowing them to purchase them in large enough cities I'm keeping them from getting even more than what they can already.
Sure you could house rule the feats aren't available, but all you're doing is messing with the game balance. The designers made the game assuming an average wealth per level worth of items, by not allowing item purchases, you're either screwing your players out of treasure by giving them items they can't/won't/don't want to use, or you're picking out treasure specific for each PC, and if you're doing that, why not just let them buy what they want to begin with.
If they decide to keep an item that was handed out, they're better off than selling it and buying something else, since they have to sell it for half the market value. So while they might be able to get something that will work better for their character by buying it, they're having to use more resources in order to do it, so it balances out in the end, at least in my eyes.
Yes, although it may take time and effort to seek out a particular item; it's not like going to the grocery store for a dozen eggs.
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Well you have to look at it from a perspective of about 2% of the population being adventurers, much less being of sufficient level to craft items, and then smaller still those that are spell casters, then also take into consideration that most of those made magic items aren't created with resale in mind and they're very often removed from the "economy" in a cavern/dungeon/alternate plane/monster stomach or some such due to a failed adventure.
There aren't traditionally thousands of retired adventurers looking to pawn off their possessions, or just retired adventurers as a whole.
Arguments can be made either way for it depending on the campaign setting. Some people like the idea of huge armies of magically equipped warriors and others would rather like a +1 weapon to be a rare and wonderful thing and that's not even counting all the people in between! :)
A simple Yes/No is good, but comments and advice are appreciated :)
Yes, all the time. I generally follow the wealth by community guidelines and might veto purchases in isolated areas where there's no local capable of making the item, but that's about it. For simple, disposable, standard things like potions of common spells (cure light wounds, etc), wands, and scrolls of the same I rarely give it a second's thought. The worst I'll do is maybe make the party wait a few days for the item to be made especially for them. If they want something nonstandard, or very high end, they need to make it themselves or specifically seek out a capable crafter to do it to order.
The transaction has always been cash for item too. No trades, no payment in kind. If the party offered, I'd be game for it.
Magic items are a good, albeit one for which there are few real consumers. They can be produced by knowable, reliable processes. So regular supply. Likewise, there is a small but fairly stable demand for them. To me it beggars belief that there wouldn't be a regular market for them.
Yes. However the setting is key. Big cities have big ticket items... +3 falchions. Small hamlets tend to have a poor selection at a marked up price... long sword with light cast on it.
That said I've always encouraged my players to buy bags of holding. I make them available in almost every village, city or hamlet. I've always said that if I was a mage of mid-range power I'd make my living making these Items. They are common place and are extremely useful to everyone.
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Consumables can be purchased normally (scrolls, potions, wands) within reason. Permanent items are a bit trickier and take leg work. And some of the items may be stolen.
But, I'm pretty good about making sure they get what they need as they go, so most of the permanent item purchases wind up being roleplaying moments (I'm big on consulting sages and whatnot, dealing with the underworld, finding the one wizard that has nothing better to do than crank out magic items on demand - with requisite waiting list and small chance of being scammed).
No magic Wal*Marts, but if someone wants something bad enough, there's a good chance they'll find something within the ballpark after putting in the proper legwork. Might not be exactly what they wanted, but it'll be close.
What i really want to know is why the NPC are not killing each other left and right for that
Light Horse = 75 gold = 20% stolen = 15 gold resale value.
Guard Dog = 25 gold = 20% stolen = 5 gold resale value.
Tent = 10 gold = 20% stolen = 2 gold resale value.
Leather armor = 10 gold = 20% stolen = 2 gold resale value.
Dagger = 2 gold = 20% stolen = 4 silver resale value.
When a Untrained Hireling only makes 1 silver per day, and a Trained Hireling makes 3 silver per day.
The only people who can make a living in gold are Casters (caster level x spell level x 10 gold) + Material component.
....
Oh well, ...... guard dog, what guard dog, i did not see any guard dog around here. . . . Chee ching $$$$$.
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Yes, but there are caveats.
Consumables (Potions, Scrolls, Wands), fairly easy to buy or commission from the local temple, mage academy, druid commune what-have-you.
Weapons, Armour, Wondrous Items, Rings, Staves, Rods: Usually the PCs tend to come across this stuff as they adventure, but occasionally they go shopping for it. Usually magic items with a +1 Bonus (or GP) can be purchased (or ordered) from most cities. Otherwise it's usually a matter of patronage in order to get other magic items commissioned, it's difficult to find a spell-caster willing to take time out of their busy schedule willing to just knock out a magic item for the PCs.
My reason for this is simple -
It makes Item Creation feats worth something (if magic items are easy to purchase, then Item Creation feats just become Feats for GP. If magic items are more difficult to purchase then they become invaluable tools for the party).
It makes my PCs invested in the world - needing to stroke an eccentric wizard's ego. Or complete a side-quest for a local druid makes for great adventure fodder. Also the occasional moral dilemma, sure the Cleric of Asmodeus is willing and able to make you a Wand of Breath of Life, but he does need you to collect on an unpaid contract... how much is it really worth to you?
Yes. However the setting is key. Big cities have big ticket items... +3 falchions. Small hamlets tend to have a poor selection at a marked up price... long sword with light cast on it.
That said I've always encouraged my players to buy bags of holding. I make them available in almost every village, city or hamlet. I've always said that if I was a mage of mid-range power I'd make my living making these Items. They are common place and are extremely useful to everyone.
They're extremely useful, but they're also so extremely useful for smuggling that any empire that was looking to control or tax any substance would be banning them across the board except for their bonded agents. And they'd be tracking all the uses of teleport as well.
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I've noticed repeatedly comments in various threads by players and the game developers that buying magical items is common place.
Now, Pathfinder Society ASIDE (please), how many GMs out there really have players buying magical items like most of us buy appliances at the local store?
A simple Yes/No is good, but comments and advice are appreciated :)
Thanks!
Ken
Yes. In a metropolis it shouldn't be too difficult to find a consumables shop (wands, scrolls and potions) run by a few retired adventurers as there should always be a demand for the basics. Those people should be able to point an adventurer to one of their colleagues if they need a custom magic item crafted or a high end broker (magic items, antiques, art objects, ect.) if they need to sell an item.
All of this might take some time, but they should be able to eventually get what they want.==
AKA 8one6
Always, always. However magic items are only available in certain sized cities, special cases, etc., as well as the caliber of the items is based on the those same factors. I do not however let my players just buy whatever they want.
My arguments rehashed over the thread over a dozen times:
- Stuff for less than 10000 gp is "enhanced" items in my mind. If a commoner 5 can make it in a week, it is NOT a "Magical Item(tm)" just because it carries a minor enchantment. It is Masterwork 2.0. Pathfinder is by design a high-magic game. Deal with it.
- Experience and number crunching has proved time and again that rogues and other skill monkeys NEED the cheapo +5 items on skills in order to be viable. (By which I mean not needing more than a 5 on a die to make a level-appropriate check)
- Restricting the basic tools of the trade = saying "Please optimize your martial characters as hard as possible, because you won't survive otherwise."
- Your opinion < years of playtesting + the opinions of the entire Paizo development crew. Deal with it. You want to have the Lord of the Rings "feeling"/scarcity with magical items? Go play one of the many Lord of the Rings games that are BALANCED for it. Restricting magical items is like saying "I don't want the players to have any of the good guns in Shadowrun/Cyberpunk/d20 Modern."
Following the rules as written for town size, GP limits, and random items by category works well. Set it up as an RP session and have them search the town and markets to find what is out there. (KariRage AKA Archives of Nythes) made a really good random item generator based upon town size that is awesome.
They rarely get to find exactly what they want if it is an odd item. +1 weapons and armor are fairly easy to find in big cities. But a +4 fire burst keen holy punching dagger is another matter.
If a character wants something that is over the town's base GP limit he/she may need to find a bigger town... or if they are in the right part of the world they may be able to commission some work to be done that will take some game time before it is done.
The last method is to hire a sage to research where on may be found in some ancient lost treasure trove that they then go adventure for.
Yes, and if something is not available they can place an order usually, and pick up the item after a time equal to the crafting time.
Generally, no, not automatically. If they can track down a caster that trades in such things, they sometimes can, but often the prices aren't in gold pieces but in services or other magical items.
That said, I mostly play E6, so magical items are rare. I generally give out over WBL anyway, but in a few powerful items; there's no generic +1 swords in my games, if they got their hands on a magical sword it might be something like a +1 flaming sword with a few unique properties and a history of it's own. They don't have many magical items, but those they have are usually quite powerful. The exception is crafters, who usually carry all kinds of small trinkets but few powerful magical items.
I allow people to buy magical items as per the rules in the core book for the most part. I do feel that people have carried over more of the 3.5 economy than is really in the book these days (consider the profession skill states that an untrained laborer will earn a silver in a week or 5.2 gold a year).
You want to see an some really funny blank stares? Have an NPC walk up and try to buy magical items from the PCs while they are walking through town.
PCs wouldn't sell at first (even though the NPC offered about 60~75% of the value of the items in question) because they thought the items must be plot hooks or something when I had the NPC offer to buy them. This was not the case though -- the NPC was just a young noble that wanted to adventure and figured to try and buy the best equipment possible to start out with.
My arguments rehashed over the thread over a dozen times:
- Stuff for less than 10000 gp is "enhanced" items in my mind. If a commoner 5 can make it in a week, it is NOT a "Magical Item(tm)" just because it carries a minor enchantment. It is Masterwork 2.0. Pathfinder is by design a high-magic game. Deal with it.
I also like to call small magical items non-magical instead, especially for skill bonuses, but I'd like to note that a 5th level commoner can't create magical items IIRC. You need level 5 for master craftsman, and only on level 7 can you begin to take crafting feats.
- Your opinion < years of playtesting + the opinions of the entire Paizo development crew. Deal with it. You want to have the Lord of the Rings "feeling"/scarcity with magical items? Go play one of the many Lord of the Rings games that are BALANCED for it. Restricting magical items is like saying "I don't want the players to have any of the good guns in Shadowrun/Cyberpunk/d20 Modern."
There are other ways to balance low-magical items campaigns too. If what you're saying that just following RAW otherwise but dropping magical items won't work after a certain point I agree, if you're saying that you can't without rewriting massive amounts of rules I absolutely do not agree. It's quite easy to balance, via "virtual gp" to buy bonuses to your character, or by playing low-level (like LotR kind-of is; you've seen the article on gandalf as level 5, I imagine), or by restricting casters (harder solution to pull of though)
No. Just because PCs can craft magic items doesn't mean every 10th NPC can do it too. NPC spellcasters are rare and so are PCs. Spellcasters have no interest in manufacturing magic baubles for profit. I have never met a player who wants to waste precious game time taking advantage of the local economic system. We are more interested in saving the princess, killing the dragon, finding the magic sword, and saving the world from certain destruction. We play a fantasy game, not an exercise in reality.
Of course I do. I use the rules that are in the PFRPG core book for availability of magic items.
Hell no! Well, maybe potions. That's about it.
I don't use magic shops, but instead have a specialist, such as a Red Wizard (in imitation of Forgotten Realms) or an Arcane / Mercane character. Then I have control. If I want that option to go away, I can have something happen to that character.
Yes, but is not that common. Only low level items and consumable are likely to be found in large cities. Other items are by quests, rewards and so on - BUT in case of rewards I'm careful (I mean, if a wizard creates a reward for a fighter, does not craft a wand for him).
It can depend from the setting they are playing in, too.
There is a middle ground too - they could bargain the access to some rare item through a wizard school or a rogue guild, or a temple.
Yes, within limits. Consumables can be purchased fairly easily, depending on what it is. Wands of fireballs aren't likely to be found, but that wand of cure light wounds is available.
Items can be commissioned, but you never know exactly what it will be. If you hand in a plain +2 sword to a master smith and tell him you want something better, you might get a +2 keen, a +3 frost, or whatever the DM feels like. These guys are artists, they don't take well to having every last detail decided before they pick up the hammer.
Pretty much this situ also... I'll also tend to have my PC's either wait a decent while for that bespoke item [like Jason says these artisans will be perfectionists], or if they do want specifics I'll have them journey to particular locales for that specific item creation - dwarven forges or have a smith decree that the ore for their requested "wyrmslaying" battleaxe blade has to be first heated in dragonfire etc... now how the group achieve that is part of the mystique and adventure - means its not just a +4 Dragonsbane battleaxe that's "off the peg" - it already has a history attached to its making...
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Yes.
Temples, wizard schools, arcane academies (sp?), the occasional shop might have a selection (small or large, depending on the setting type and size) of potions, oils, wands, and minor items with charges or consumed in use.
Large cities even offer custom creation of items by special NPCs (usually limited to an overall +3 bonus), and they involve a minor quest for them to retrieve components or compensate the expenses.
I encourage the use rather than the stacking of consummables, so the wizard can spare a spell or two, the cleric doesn't need more than one (emergency use) cure wound per level spell memorized, etc.
No.
A player who comes to my table and says "by level X I expect to have items for value Y, so I'll get weapon Z with these qualities plus bracers of awesomeness and headband of cool factor" is bound for a whole world of hurt.
No supermarkets. No random high level item on sale. No high level NPC creating whatever he's asked just for money. No availability of each and every magical quality based on level expectations.
Characters get to loot treasures. Usually that's more than enough. Otherwise, they have to deal with it.
Yes. I allow the purchase of magical items as per the rules. I have found that without the items that the party tends to have a very difficult time dealing with encounters.
If it wasn't for fighters and other non casters being very feat dependent and thus often requiring specific magic items to function effectively then I wouldn't sell them. As it stands though I have found that not providing a character with the specific weapon type they have taken feats for actually undermines their ability to do their job effectively and thus it also undermines the players overall enjoyment of the game.
I don't however just allow the items to be easily purchased at a "magic-mart". Lower level items can be easily found but higher level stuff often has a waiting period for it. I assume that there isn't just a +4 flaming sword laying around at every city. Instead the players are paying agents to find them the item in question or they are commissioning the creation of the wanted item. I don't deviate on the price for the item though as I go by the books listed price.
The only time I allow powerful items to be purchased quickly is if the characters are pressed for time due to an adventure. If they are not pressed for time then the item will take some time to be found. Normally I figure that most powerful items take a couple of months to be found or made. This gives characters some downtime to do other things besides adventure. Often characters will hole up in a city for the winter or pursue other interests they may have while waiting for items to be found or made.
Later,
Rzach
Yes.
And why do you make it sound (the all-caps REALLY) as if this was worse than murdering puppy dogs?