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I love this archetype. In fact, I would simply love to see it as altclass. Cavalier was one of the classes that I did not like, and in fact, had no interest in playing whatsoever. This archetype has drawn me to the cavalier and several of my RL players are interested in playing the class when we start our game again. Further, this archetype is very easy to conform to the needs of the specific game. You want to play Ethiopian-type noble warrior, or Zulu, just exchange dogs for hunting cats; you want to play falconer, just exchange dogs for birds and perhaps concentrate on fighting with bow. A noble of Triton's court? Just add dolphins. I love it.
Cody, I just remembered you're this year's Boise contestant. Now I have to vote for you. Not that your archetype isn't in my top two or three anyway....
Yes, I am. My profile has been updated, so perhaps they might add our cities next to our entries. Like they did the previous years :)
RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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I guess I don't mind the cavalier class. I'd certainly get into it if handed a pregen. Maybe folks are just overwhelmed by the coolness of the alchemist or the crazy power and customizability of the eidolon class. :b
This might be my favorite archetype thus far. The concept is well-conceived, the writing is not bad, and the trade off for powers seems to err on the side of powering down for the concept rather than breaking the class in a different way. Kudos.
The abilities required some thought instead of just adding new skills and borrowing abilities from another class. If I were to kibitz one big thing, it would be to make the successive hounds just as cool as the first one. Less bookkeeping that way, and everyone's job is easier. Also, animal companions of any type are either getting it to easy so as not to hurt a player's feelings (you know, for those of you who care about your players' feelings), or they take it pretty hard at medium and higher levels. Just make the dogs all the same. And name them all Snowball.
Well done, and one of only a few I knew I'd be voting for as son as I read it.
I'm another one of those who's not a fan of cavaliers, in large part because the focus on mounted combat seems like it's a major limit for the type of adventures they can participate in.
This seems like it would solve that problem handily. Plus, of course, I'm a dog lover.
My one downside would be I find animal companions are often already forgotten whenever they aren't in specific play (a la Order of the Stick's raven familiar popping in and out) and two of them would seem to compound that, but I think the basic fun factor of the two warhounds would override that.
Still, probably my favorite of the archetypes.
EDIT: For those worried about "Go for the throat," how about "Chopper, sic balls." : )
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This archetype would make cavalier a playable class in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. I play a cavalier in PFS and I wish I didn't. It was a silly thing to do, but I started when it was in Beta on a whim and then I was stuck. The main problem with a cavalier in PFS is that the PFS modules rarely take place in environments where a cavalier can use his mount. So, in PFS, a cavalier is basically just a haughty, uptight fighter. I say people should vote for this merely on the basis of the possibility of bringing cavalier into parity for PFS.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I intentionally left this one for last when I saw how many posts were on it - I could tell it was attracting a lot of attention, either good or bad. In this case, I think it justifies the hype. The abilities are creative and well-balanced with what you're swapping out. The theme is distinctive and yet fits well with the basis of the class, and all of the abilities fit well with it.
I have no critiques really. I think this one is a bang-up job. One of my favorites of the round.
Congrats on making round 2, and best of luck!
Impressive, an excellent substitution that follows through to the end and creates a very differnt character type thematically. Good use of mechanics and prose.
Great job.
As your competition I'm loathe to say too much, but...
I've played many characters that used dogs and I always ran into one problem consistently: at higher levels, the dogs just became handy monster snacks. Your archetype gets around that nicely.
Now, fix the other problem I always ran into, ladders! ;)
Nicely done Cody. I cannae agree or disagree with the fighter/cavalier argument, but I do think these abilities swap with those you swapped and that is more important.
I did some comparing about number of attack rolls & dominating combat time. All three of the pack will be attacking the same target in most cases so positioning and target's AC math is minimized. For seventh level characters:
4 rolls = Hound master (2HM, D, d)
4 rolls = Ranger (two weapon and a d)
2 rolls = druid (Druid & D)
4 rolls = druid (Druid & ape)
6 rolls = druid (in apeshape & ape) ignoring all those summoning spells. 4 billion rolls = druid in apeshape & ape and 1d4 apes and 1d4 apes and 1d4 apes and ... :)
See: balance. Nicely done.
I shall name my small dog Trevor. :)
I shall name my small dog Trevor. :)
And the big one will be called Barkspawn.
And the big one will be called Barkspawn.
I shall name my small dog Trevor. :)
lol
This is amazing. At first I thought it was a bit of a chip off the old WoW block, but goes meters beyond Houndmaster Loksey. I have one simple rule for this round: Does it immediately make me want to create a character using this archetype? The answer here is yes!
My only concern is the extra two companions, especially for a character who already has full BAB, and therefore a minimum of 6 attacks a round at level 20. Other than that, it is a straightforward yet gripping replacement for those who liked the Cavalier class, but didn't really care for the mount aspect(guilty). Well done.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4
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Star Voter Season 6
aka raidou
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Cody, you've chosen to tackle one of the new character classes by removing one of the building blocks of that class. It's a bold choice; After the mount, most of the customization of this class comes from its Orders, which you were not allowed to create for this round. Let's see what you do with the remaining class abilities.
War Hound (Ex): At 1st level, a hound master gains the service of a loyal war hound to aid him in battle. This hound functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature has the same stats as a wolf.
Pathfinder really did a good job with standardizing mounts/animal companions. Giving your character a hound companion in place of a horse is easier to do, now that they all share a similar set of stats.
Pack Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, a hound master learns greater coordination with his war hound. When a hound master and his hound are flanking the same creature, the hound master’s flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. This ability replaces cavalier’s charge.
Very nice. Also has some good synergies with the cavalier's tactical feats. Balanced with a good visual. How does this work with feats that also grant flanking bonus (Outflank comes to mind)?
Expert Handler (Ex): Upon reaching 4th level, the hound master may take on a second war hound; while smaller and weaker than his primary hound, it is still a useful ally. This ability functions like the war hound ability, except that the hound master's effective druid level is equal to his cavalier level – 3. In addition, this ability allows the war hounds to choose from teamwork feats when selecting feats gained from additional Hit Die. This ability replaces expert trainer.
This is not just good synergy, it's also extremely creative. It's also a bit on the powerful side given that you now have two combat allies with the Trip ability and Expert Trainer is not a very strong ability to be giving up.
Go For the Throat (Ex): At 11th level, a hound master has perfected fighting beside his animals. Whenever an opponent is tripped or overrun by one of his war hounds, the opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from the hound master. The target must be threatened by both the hound master and his war hound. This ability replaces mighty charge.
Nice, I think this works very well and replaces a pretty potent ability.
Kill Command (Ex): At 20th level, whenever an opponent is threatened by the hound master and both of his hounds, the hound master may issue a kill command. This is a swift action that grants both hounds an attack of opportunity on the target. A creature cannot be the target of this ability more than once per day. This ability replaces supreme charge.
Cody, this really is fantastic stuff. The design of this class is solid, interesting, and makes me want to play one of these guys. You've clearly got a lot of people talking about it, too. It's professional-level design and you've certainly earned the praise. Well-done.
I love the flavor, reminds me of Celtic warriors running beside their dogs. Mechanically the abilities have been fairly traded out and are well written.
War hound: nicely done to mention that the hound is combat trained, that is something that has caused lots of rules discussions in the past.
Pack Tactics: Obvious and makes sense.
Expert Handler: I like the second war hound, I actually wish that later on the second hound became as tough as the first one. I know people would have dinged you if you had though. Teamwork feats for dogs that is stylish, maybe not super useful but very stylish.
Go for the Throat: Nice
Kill Command: Not nearly as good as supreme charge, but stylish anyway. I wish this wasn’t a 1/day ability, or that it has some other way of limiting it.
Nicely done. Choosing a class that has a drawback (no horses in dungeons) and making people want to play it again, that shows Superstar potential.
Good luck in the competition.
Of all the archetypes I've read this one to me is one of the best. It should go on to the next round.
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This was the first archetype out of the 5 that I voted for to make the cut (maybe because of the order they were in, although that didn't affect what I ended up voting for or not in the end).
This is AWESOME! This is a perfectly valid and IMHO very much-needed alternative for someone who wants to play a Cavalier but isn't thrilled about mounted combat (like me), plus you're sticking to some of the same historical traditions that the base Cavalier seems to have been inspired by while making things new and interesting.
I really hope that you advance to the next round, and can't wait to see more of your stuff. You've got what it takes, brother!
Seems to be a favorite for a reason. I love this and has my vote.
I voted for three entries, and this was the only one that I was 100% behind. I love this archetype.
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8
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Name and concept: I liked the idea straight off, so I'm not sure the author needed the slightly apologetic tone used here.
Archetype mechanics, expression of the concept: War Hound: It's an equivalent companion with different training. No concerns there.
Pack Tactics seems an appropriate exchange.
Expert Handler: This is the ability I first expected to see from this concept, though I'd actually like the second (and subsequent) hound to be stronger than this, maybe by trading down levels on the first one.
Go for the Throat: This might be a bit worse than the base class ability, which grants a free maneuver and also a boost to the attack.
Kill Command: This definitely falls off in value, merely granting the hounds extra single attacks. It needs something more for 20th level.
Wider relationships: This might seem more like a skilled servant's role, though that's not necessarily wrong - the cavalier can probably encompass a squire or serjeant's position.
This looks pretty good, though maybe it could have used a bit more kick at higher levels.
Thanks to the early reveal of the Round 3 rules, I will have more time to return here and reply. For now I continue to offer my thanks.
Cody,
Very nicely done. Even before I get to specific points, I want to congratulate you on what I think is the most solid, professional, polished entry of the round. Polish isn't everything, but in Superstar, it's a lot - and it's indicative of a level of attention, understanding, and effort that are invaluable as a contestant and as a designer.
My personal rubric focuses mostly on concept, writing, and theme; I've got a lot less to add on the mechanics side of it.
Resonance
Is the concept a cohesive, identifiable archetype? Do I understand the concept? Is it colorful, interesting, innovative?
The concept is clear and understandable. It doesn't wow me with originality or turn the game on its end, but it stakes out a clear niche, and provides a solid alternative for players, which is easily discernable from other Cavalier characters.
I agree with Ryan on the archetype not feeling well-connected with its base class - fighter or ranger would have felt more appropriate to me.
Implementation
Does the implementation of the archetype do justice to the concept? Can the archetype character do the type of things we'd expect him to?
Yes, and very nicely! Your handling of the dogs and their cooperative tactics with the master look like a lot of fun, and exactly what a player would be looking for.
Playability
Would players want to play this archetype? Would this character archetype have a place in a game? Will the archetype's unique flavor be evident in actual gameplay?
Distinctly. You've made it clear how the dogs will be present in the game, and you've made them an element that is distinct and unique - and also unquestionably useful.
All in all, I think this is one of the strongest entries in the round. It doesn't scream gonzo-originalty - instead, it exudes confidence, competence, and capability. You found an attractive concept that could be expressed extremely well within the limits that you had; that's exactly what's called for here, and it's clear you're handling it well.
Keep up the great work :)
This is far and away the best of the four entries that I felt motivated to vote for.
I plan to play one of these guys in a Kingmaker campaign soon. :)
Paizo, go ahead and throw this into Ultimate Combat.
I got a noble's going on a fox hunt picture in my head while reading it.
This is exactly what comes to mind when I'm reading this archetype as well. I was going to voice it after reading through the whole commentary, but it's good to see that someone else was thinking the same thing.
I had zero interest in playing a Cavalier. I've also never played my PCs where they'd want a familiar or a pet even if I were playing the classes that had access to them.
This would be the first because I'm really digging the thematic imagery this could bring up and would work well in dungeon / exploration type adventures versus the usual riff the cavaliers are pigeon-holed into.
Definitely going to get my vote. =)
One of the last entries I read (arbitrarily; I wasn't reading in any particular order). I'm glad I remembered to check this out, because this is one of the better ones; pretty simple but executed well.
My one criticism is to echo the idea that they should have gotten some kind of general training/commanding bonus, because lordly huntsmen usually have more than one or two hunting dogs (though modeling the alpha as an animal companion is indeed pretty cool). Yes, you can always just make Handle Animal checks like everyone else, but I feel that offering even a small bonus there would have made the concept stronger.
Just wanted to follow up that after now reading all 32 entries, this archetype is only one of two I've come across that easily went to my 'gets my vote' pile by ignoring completely whatever they may have (not) submitted in their first round entry. Good job!
Huzzah, I may finally address your issues! Now of course I am rather busy with my villain, but I would like to offer you a glimpse into my reasoning.
When I was selecting archtypes I looked at this one and thought to myself, [i]"The cavalier is a really cool class, I love how they are a nobel knight who's power comes from their convictions, ideals, and challenges. However, they seem rather disliked because a quarter of the class is about a horse and their bonuses to charging (presumably on said horse). Nobody wants to play a class were any time you go in a dungeon you lose a quarter of your class.
So I pulled that and replaced it with something I felt would be appropriate for other knightly figures. The nobleman who fights beside his trusty hounds. With this change I could still imagine a well-armored, banner waving figure leading his soldiers into battle with a pair of deadly trained animals at his guard. Nobody ever said he can't ride a horse into battle if necessary, he's just not as skilled with them as a normal cavalier. A glaive wielding hound master on horse back could be a deadly foe in the middle of a fight while his dogs trip and knock down opponents nearby for him to finish.
I was inspired from several places which have all been touched upon in this thread. Honestly, I've never gotten a Hunter past level 20 in WoW. I Googled 'Kill Command' because I was trying to find a better name for it, didn't even notice the spell name at the time because I was looking for variations. I thought about changing it to Sic 'em, but decided to leave it vague so each player could choose for themselves what exactly their hound master called out for the ability. Someone mentioned they were bummed this ability was only 1/day. I wanted to clarify that it's actually 1/day per enemy and could be used on multiple foes in the same day.
I never bothered searching Go For the Throat because it's a phrase that has been around forever. It just fit the ability so well the thought never occurred to me. Comparing it to the spell in WoW it's not even similar in function. Some stated it would be neat if it let the dogs get a free attack when the hound master tripped, and this was actually in my initial draft. However it proved very difficult to word accurately and I cut it down for simplicity.
Another point is that Go For the Throat and Kill Command appear to be power-downs from the abilities they replace. This is accurate. I chose to do so to help make up for the power-up from replacing Expert Trainer with Expert Handler. I notice several have mentioned they would have liked Expert Handler to gave training bonuses so the hound master could have a pack of hounds. This is something that is certainly still possible with Handle Animal, but I did not want to encourage it. I knew already that two animals would be one too many for some. If I had the word count I would have added some alternates to the ability for those players who wanted to stick with one dog. Without the word count I decided to stick with allowing the hounds to learn tactician feats, so that a player who decided against a second dog would still have some benefit.
Regarding giving cavalier an animal companion at full effective druid level...it already has one, but a horse. Horses are more powerful than dogs and even have more attacks. Their downside of being left out of dungeons does off-set this though. So that's why I felt there would be no issue with allowing this archtype to have a 'wolf' which is weaker than a horse but allowed in more places. I originally had chosen to use the stats for a riding dog, but after some comparisons, and noting that riding dogs never 'scale' like wolf companions I decided to change to wolf stats. The stats for dog companions feel like they would be appropriate for a golden retriever, not a huge mastiff to take into battle. If small characters can choose between riding wolves and dogs anyways, they must be pretty similar ;)
Changing this archtype to work with fighter or ranger would have required a brutal gutting of those classes. Also, rangers already have beast master, which let's them choose any kind of animal they want. I fear that would have been too large an overlap without the proper imagery I sought.
Lastly, the apologetic tone of the description. That's something I picked up from reading through other archtypes and in a future revision would edit.
Someone mentioned they were bummed this ability was only 1/day. I wanted to clarify that it's actually 1/day per enemy and could be used on multiple foes in the same day.
Not exactly bummed, it just seems like an arbitary limit on the ability. I can't think of an in-game reason why it should be limited like that.
Anyway, these are small quibbles, now get back to writing your awesome villain!! :-p :-)
Not exactly bummed, it just seems like an arbitary limit on the ability. I can't think of an in-game reason why it should be limited like that.
Anyway, these are small quibbles, now get back to writing your awesome villain!! :-p :-)
"Yesh, mashter, it'sh almosht complete!"
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I wrote it for once per day per enemy for two reasons. First, it seemed a little OP to give your dogs a free attack every round you're all next to a guy.
Second,
"Go, Scruffy and Scrappy, kill!"
"Uh...kill some more?!"
Though comparing it to capstones like ninja and samurai it does seem a little tame... "I'm going to be invisible for two minutes, I hope you won't be missing these organs."
"Yesh, mashter, it'sh almosht complete!"
"Go, Scruffy and Scrappy, kill!"
"Uh...kill some more?!"
But your puppies "Chopper" and "Chomper" can 'sic balls' round after round provided they do it on different opponents. Valeros is going to ask, "why didn't you just do that on the big bag guy over and over, rather than on each of his lieutenants?"
I'm just not a big fan of disconnected mechanics, especially ones that are Ex (not Su or Sp). My care factor on capstone abilities is pretty low, I'm really unlikely to get to that high a level.
But ignore me, and do your villain. As Jim Groves say: just keep looking forward. :-)
Congratulations on advancing! I can't wait to see what you do with the villain round.
Congratulations on advancing! I can't wait to see what you do with the villain round.
Thank you, I am hard at work.
Congrats, Cody. This entry was my absolute favorite of the field, and as has been mentioned by others, I can't wait for your BBEG.
Congrats again, sweetie!
I hope to hear comments like that for Round 3 as well. Giving it my best effort.
But your puppies "Chopper" and "Chomper" can 'sic balls' round after round provided they do it on different opponents. Valeros is going to ask, "why didn't you just do that on the big bag guy over and over, rather than on each of his lieutenants?"
1) because the big guy knows what to expect now and is desperately covering himself when they approach, a standard rationale for encounter-type powers.
2) because the big guy only had the one set of privates and the dogs can't rip them off again, unless he's a troll. :)
First off, I'm a Big Fan of the Cavalier, Secondly, this one has my vote.
You have to look at it from an mechanics perspective, not an animal companion perspective.
And.
Why can't a gnome ride his hound?
When reading this I had visions of Orc Hound Masters on the heels of a party escaping with their lives, low on healing and spells.
Dunno why.
I vote for this one.
Until then make mine marvel! ERm I mean Paizo!
Hound Master (Cavalier)
Most cavaliers charge into battle atop mighty steeds, however some lack the finesse with equines required to be proficient riders. Still wishing to serve their order, hound masters choose to fight beside war hounds which are powerful animals trained for battle. A hound master has the following class features.War Hound (Ex): At 1st level, a hound master gains the service of a loyal war hound to aid him in battle. This hound functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level. The creature has the same stats as a wolf.
The war hound is always considered combat trained and begins play with Light Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat. A hound master’s hound does not gain the share spells special ability. These hounds are not suitable for riding and cannot be trained to carry riders.
A hound master’s bond is strong and if the war hound dies, the cavalier may find another hound to serve him after 1 week of mourning. This new hound does not gain the link, evasion, devotion, or improved evasion special abilities until the next time the cavalier gains a level. This ability replaces mount.
Pack Tactics (Ex): At 3rd level, a hound master learns greater coordination with his war hound. When a hound master and his hound are flanking the same creature, the hound master’s flanking bonus on attack rolls increases to +4. This ability replaces cavalier’s charge.
Expert Handler (Ex): Upon reaching 4th level, the hound master may take on a second war hound; while smaller and weaker than his primary hound, it is still a useful ally. This ability functions like the war hound ability, except that the hound master's effective druid level is equal to his cavalier level – 3. In addition, this ability allows the war hounds to choose from teamwork feats when selecting feats gained from additional Hit Die. This ability replaces expert trainer.
Go For the Throat (Ex): At 11th level, a hound master has perfected fighting...
I like it, I like it alot, I'd like it even better if I can get an option for three hounds!
I think it needs an ability to get fast move (to keep up with and run with the hounds) at the expense of heavy armor and maybe some armor training at the expense of shields (his hand will be busy holding leashes) maybe...just thinking out loud.
Ok so how do i put this archeytpe onto a ronin? Yeeessss
Well, I did make this.