As i have said in another thread i will soon be playing in a curse of the crimson throne campaign and i am thinking of playing either a human sorcerer or an elf wizard. I am aware of Treantmonk's guide to wizards but i would like some help regarding what schools i should prohibit (i am thinking of playing a conjurer). The other party members are a human melee fighter, a rogue (half elf?) and a cleric (race?).
Any other help you can offer would be welcomed.
Thank you in advance for your help.
As i have said in another thread i will soon be playing in a curse of the crimson throne campaign and i am thinking of playing either a human sorcerer or an elf wizard. I am aware of Treantmonk's guide to wizards but i would like some help regarding what schools i should prohibit (i am thinking of playing a conjurer). The other party members are a human melee fighter, a rogue (half elf?) and a cleric (race?).
Any other help you can offer would be welcomed.
Thank you in advance for your help.
With a cleric in the party, I don't think you will need Necromancy. Enchantment is stong at lower levels, but become nearly useless at higher levels. If the fighter is focused in dealing damage, then you won't need Evocation.
So my suggestions are : Necromancy and Enchantment or Evocation.
Enchantment & illusion would be 2 you could probably give up. Necromancy and evocation would be secondary choices IMO (it may not be "optimized", but it is fun to blow things up).
Enchantment & illusion would be 2 you could probably give up. Necromancy and evocation would be secondary choices IMO (it may not be "optimized", but it is fun to blow things up).
I thought that illusion had some very good buffs, also i am not very interested in blasting (although i am not ready to make evocation a prohibited school) and i don't like necromancy for this character (but i love necromancy, especially the divinde one).
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I play wizards that tend towards the more LG side and so they often take Enchantment (mind control?!) and Necromancy (eww) as evil-ish and tend not to dabble in these areas. So those are my two fav picks!
If I have a less experienced GM that may not be prepared for adjudicating spells I tend to take Illusion as an opposed school instead of necromancy.
You may also want to consider the environment for where most of your adventures will be. If there will be a lot of RP or other social interactions, then Enchantment and Illusion allow a lot of options so you should keep those. If the adventures will be very urban then Evocation and Necromancy can be a little bit harder to deal with so losing those could work well. And as others have stated if you are playing a "good" character then giving up necromancy is a viable RP choice.
Personally I would usually select Enchantment and Necromancy as my prohibited schools unless I had a campaign or background reason to select something else.
I play wizards that tend towards the more LG side and so they often take Enchantment (mind control?!) and Necromancy (eww) as evil-ish and tend not to dabble in these areas. So those are my two fav picks!
If I have a less experienced GM that may not be prepared for adjudicating spells I tend to take Illusion as an opposed school instead of necromancy.
I totally understand you, i have a similar tendancy myself.
Can you please explain your last sentence a little more? (it's probably the late hour).
You may also want to consider the environment for where most of your adventures will be. If there will be a lot of RP or other social interactions, then Enchantment and Illusion allow a lot of options so you should keep those. If the adventures will be very urban then Evocation and Necromancy can be a little bit harder to deal with so losing those could work well. And as others have stated if you are playing a "good" character then giving up necromancy is a viable RP choice.
Personally I would usually select Enchantment and Necromancy as my prohibited schools unless I had a campaign or background reason to select something else.
As i have said we will be playing the curse of the crimson throne campaing, i am not sure how much you stay inside the city and how much you go out (or forced) but i guess that a big portion of the game will be inside the city.
Divination is an easy one to drop -- most of its spells are better as scrolls and don't rely on save throws or caster level checks. The few times you want to actually scry or something you can still cast the spell anyways.
Divination is an easy one to drop -- most of its spells are better as scrolls and don't rely on save throws or caster level checks. The few times you want to actually scry or something you can still cast the spell anyways.
*guy brand new to pathfinder*
Can i select divinaton as a prohibited school??????
I thought they couldn't, but after rereading the arcane school section, I can't find where it says that.
Yup you can choose divination now.
Divination is one of the school you should either specialize in, or drop completely.
If you specialize there is at least one spell of each spell level in the school you'll want prepared every day. But if you ban it these spells are not so central that you can't make due without them.
If you're a conjurer, you can safely drop evocation, as there are plenty of damage-dealing cojurations you can pick from. Evocation is fun, but it's not completely needed if you're going to specialize in conjuration.
I dropped divination and abjuration and I am doing quite well, I love necromancy.
I agree with much of what was said above.
Any of these are solid choices for prohibited schools:
Necromancy - A solid school, but with a fairly low number of spells overall and many that you'll never use. Necromancy's strength is really built on just a few spells, mostly rays and mostly attacks. If you don't mind giving up 3-4 very good spells, Necro is a good one to dump.
Enchantment - As said above, saving throws for everyone! Also, spell resistance and lots of immunities at higher levels. It's a good choice to give up in any combat centered game. On the other hand, it's got a ton of social/urban/roleplay mileage that you won't want to miss in a less combat-centric campaign.
Evocation - Blast spells are fun, and although your fighter types will consistently out-damage you, having a couple in your pocket at all times will let you place damage in otherwise hard to reach places, like 500' away on the other side of an obstacle. I don't like giving up evocation, but I would in any party with a blaster in the group.
Illusion - You'll miss certain staples at low levels, but illusions offer lots of saves, so they weaken as you increase in level. I agree with Liqudsabre that illusions are best when you have a flexible, experienced GM. They are very flexible spells that take a lot of judgment calls, so skipping them can do a favor few a newer GM.
Divination - There aren't very many Divination spells, and most of the staples (Detect Magic, Read Magic, Identify, True Strike, See Invisibility) are very low level, so occasionally using up two spell slots isn't too bad. Also, as Abraham said, lots of them are good for days off, or on scrolls.
None of these were recommended above, and for good reason!
Abjuration - You really don't want to give up Dispel Magic and it's ilk!
Conjuration - Huge volume of spells, including many powerful ones and some game changers like Teleport.
Transmutation - Like conjuration, a huge volume of spells, including some of the best ones to cast on your party members. If you don't have transmutation, you're likely to be somewhat unpopular with your party members.
Remember this is Pathfinder. You're not giving up any spells. If you choose necromancy as one of your opposition schools and you want to prepare Ray of Enfeeblement, you can! It just costs you two first level spell slots.
-Swiftbrook
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Whoa, whoa, whoa... Illusion? As a recommended prohibited school? I don't understand that.
Illusion is the absolute best school at defense - even better than abjuration. While it's true that Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and Phantasmal Killer are kind of weak, please consider the following Illusion spells:
Color Spray
Disguise Self
Blur
Mirror Image
Invisibility
Displacement
Greater Invisibility
Veil
Project Image
Simulacrum
...
Kings of defense. Maybe you want to give up invisibility. Maybe your wizard doesn't need it. But my wizard can't count the number of times Mirror Image and Invisibility have saved his life.
I was going on as much of a role play perspective as power. Conjuration creates/summons real things, counter to illusions "tricks". Conjuration and transmutation both have good buffs and defensive buffs. Illusion is a good school, but this is what I was thinking.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... Illusion? As a recommended prohibited school? I don't understand that.
SNIP <GOOD POINTS> SNIP
True but a cloak of displacement and a ring of invisibility can cover a lot of the key ones. If you are in a game with lots of indeed, vermin, etc Illusion loses a little bit more. Mirror Image is always painful to lose in any game. Illusion would not be my first choice either... but some DM's really lower the value of illusion in the way the adjudicate their use so it is something to consider.
The only one I would ever say is vital to all wizards is Transmutation... but then again that could just be my play style.
EDIT - Do'h - Bad spell check. :) Change Indeed to Undead.
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I was going on as much of a role play perspective as power. Conjuration creates/summons real things, counter to illusions "tricks". Conjuration and transmutation both have good buffs and defensive buffs. Illusion is a good school, but this is what I was thinking.
Kierato: And I say that a Conjurer who knows illusions is the most dangerous kind.
"What's this over here? It's a horrifying devil! I just conjured it! Or did I? Is this one the real devil? What about this one?"
Yeah. Good times. Conjurers and illusionists have traditionally had opposition to each other over the 'reality' of their craft, but their crafts can work really, really, really well together.
Thazar: Agreed on Transmutation. The best spells have no saves. I also agree that the use of Illusion varies greatly from game to game. But I love illusions too much to ever recommend it as a prohibited school. I'd much sooner give up Abjuration.
Don't forget when you "teleport away"... or did you?
Anyways transmutation is great due to the fact that even if you don't cast a spell at an enemy you can have a significant impact on the battle just by helping your friends. This isn't to say it doesn't have enemy killing spells (it does) but transmutation can get out of a lot of situations very easily.
Whoa, whoa, whoa... Illusion? As a recommended prohibited school? I don't understand that.
Illusion is the absolute best school at defense - even better than abjuration. While it's true that Shadow Evocation/Conjuration and Phantasmal Killer are kind of weak, please consider the following Illusion spells:
Color Spray - A good low level attack spell.
Disguise Self - Situational, non-combat. Worth 2 slots in town, and worth 0 slots in the dungeon.
Blur - A weak defensive spell. I never cast this.
Mirror Image - An excellent defensive spell.
Invisibility - An excellent spell, and a shame to give up. Worth 2 slots on a non-dungeon day.
Displacement - A solid defensive spell, but at 3rd level, there are many better choices.
Greater Invisibility - An excellent spell, and a shame to give up, especially if you've got a rogue in the party.
Veil - Situational, non-combat. Worth 2 slots in town, and worth 0 slots in the dungeon.
Project Image - Situational, non-combat. Worth 2 slots in town, and worth 0 slots in the dungeon.
Simulacrum - 12 hour casting time! Use two slots and cast this on your day off.
Much like Divination, there are a few great spells that will be missed, and a few more that are great but that you were only going to cast when spell slots aren't an issue. Also, many of the best spells don't offer a save, so caster level and saving throw are not important and you'd might as well use a scroll.
I agree that conjurations and illusions can work well together, but I stand behind my advice.
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If I have a less experienced GM that may not be prepared for adjudicating spells I tend to take Illusion as an opposed school instead of necromancy.Can you please explain your last sentence a little more? (it's probably the late hour).
IME less experienced DMs (especially ones unfamiliar with all the spells and have not played casters before) dealing with mid to high level wizards with Illusions (greater invisibility, illusory terrain, etc.) can cause them a bit of stress since they aren't sure how NPCs should react and doesn't have the knowledge of magical and mundane counters that NPCs would rightly be aware of. Particularly when an Evoker is flying invisibly above the battlefield dropping fireballs upon the pirate cove and their citadel.
For this reason alone I will back off of Illusions because they can be very effective if not countered by magically prepared foes. I've seen some DMs adore Illusions in play while other less experienced DMs freak at the sight of it.
Illusion depends a lot on your party -- if you think you can keep behind the lines and keep cover from your allies then you can dump illusion without much problems. However if you are worried that the baddies will be able to close and swing on you with some regularity then you should probably keep illusion.
I would lose Necromancy and enchantment. I had thought about illusion but I find the illusion spells to be extremely useful at lower levels.
I suppose the question becomes what level are you starting at? I think that at higher levels certain schools begin to taper off in power while others really begin to shine.
I would lose Necromancy and enchantment. I had thought about illusion but I find the illusion spells to be extremely useful at lower levels.
I suppose the question becomes what level are you starting at? I think that at higher levels certain schools begin to taper off in power while others really begin to shine.
We are starting at level 1.
You also said you were considering sorcerer.
Why not go arcane bloodline (extra spells, free Metamagic and human extra spells favored class option)
You give up no schools, have tons of spells known (re:the best from all schools) and can spontaneously cast whatever you need.
Take the arcane focus (familiar is nice, improved -get a mephit-thumbs!!+wands ftw)
craft wand, persistant, empower, heighten, intensify and spell perfection.Feel like a wizard, but better.
If you still want wizard- consider divination to specialize. By far the most powerful school powers (go focused divination!! the aura is awesome)
If you follow the link you will see that if i play a sorcerer it will be a human sorcerer with the draconic bloodline that will go DD (dragon disciple) at first chance. Human wanna be gold dragon and elf wizard are both characters i want to play for a very long time.
Thank you all for your advices so far (you are more than welcome to keep them coming) and i think that we can all agree that necromancy is a good choice for a prohibited school and i am sold on that, so necromancy is going to be one of the two, now i am not comfortable with prohibiting divination, enchanchement sounds very good as a second choice. Just for the record i am not going to prohibit illusion, it's way too good.
Now if i may derail this thread, i am going to be taking a bonded object (yes i know that this isn't a good choice but i REALLY don't like familliars) and i am consider taking a weapon.
So what do you think about that?
Enchantment & illusion would be 2 you could probably give up. Necromancy and evocation would be secondary choices IMO (it may not be "optimized", but it is fun to blow things up).
Never give up Illusion. It's like saying the best two schools to give up are Abjuration and Illusion. Sure, if you want to die.
Evocation and Necromancy. Always. Especially since in Pathfinder you don't actually lose the abilities to use those spells.
Unless you want to be a blaster, then I guess you can dump Conjuration and Enchantment.
Thank you all for your advices so far (you are more than welcome to keep them coming) and i think that we can all agree that necromancy is a good choice for a prohibited school and i am sold on that, so necromancy is going to be one of the two, now i am not comfortable with prohibiting divination, enchanchement sounds very good as a second choice. Just for the record i am not going to prohibit illusion, it's way too good.
Now if i may derail this thread, i am going to be taking a bonded object (yes i know that this isn't a good choice but i REALLY don't like familliars) and i am consider taking a weapon.
So what do you think about that?A spont cast of your highest level is nice.
Buuuutttt- if you lose it or are *disarmed* you can't cast, (very hard check at low levels). Why a weapon? Being a wiz, you suck at combat.Familiar dies? Summon a new one!
Improving it to a mephit at 7th and let it carry wands doubles your castings per round (think no save wand b/c spells)
Yes i know the drawbacks of having a bonded object, and especially a weapon and yes i know that as a wizard i will be sucking in combat, i want a bonded weapon clearly for thematic reasons and not giving up one of my item slots. Yes i know that a familliar has no such drawbacks and i know about the mephit thingy and how good it can be but i really don't like familliars, i keep forgetting them.
BTW- the Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer could function as a wizard (i.e. do it all caster)
Example (I know you said DD, but bare with me)
If you go straight sorc with human favored class (spells) option.You could have a MASSIVE spont list. (Only 3 smaller than an arcane sorc) Low level feats take Empower, Persistant and craft wand.
Make your feats from 7th level imp familiar, 15th quicken and Expanded knowledge the rest.Example Spellist:
0- (12known) Spark, Resistance, Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Daze, Ghost Sound, Prestidigiation, Open/Close
1-(8known)Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, Feather fall, Nerveskitter, Protection against Evil, Benign Transposition, Colour Spray (swap for Comprehend Languages), Identify
2-(8known)Resist Energy, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Rope Trick, Scorching Ray, Minor Image
3-(9known)Fly, Dispel Magic, Blacklight, Water Breathing, Protection From Energy, Haste, Spiked Pit (swap for Sleet Storm), Slow (swap for Major Image), Fireball
4-(9known)Fear, Dimension Door, Enervation, Boneshatter, Orb of Fire, Dimensional Anchor (swap for Attune Form), Black Tentacles, Confusion, Summon Monster 4 (swap for Arcane Eye)
5-(9known)Spell Resistance, Mass Fire Shield, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Dominate Person, Hungry Pit, Teleport (swap for Cloudkill), Lesser Planar Binding (swap for Telekinesis), Wall of Stone
6-(6known) Form of the dragon 1, Planar Binding, Gtr Anticipate Teleportation, Magic, Circle of Death, Summon Monster 6 (swap for Chain Lightning)
7-(8known) Form of the Dragon 2, Reverse Gravity, Brilliant Aura, Spell Turning, Gtr arcane sight, Gtr Dispel Project Image, Waves of Exhaustion, Summon Monster 7 (swap for Plane Shift)
8-(9known) Form of the dragon 3, Gtr Planar Bind, Prismatic Wall, Discern Location, Polymorph any Object, Discern Location, Wrathful Castigation, Clenched Fist, Horrid Wilting
9-(3,1) Wish, Summon Monster 9, Time Stop, Mage’s Disjunction
NICE!
Thank VERY much for your list (i was hoping to get something like that in the other thread), can please shed some more light to the whole swapping thing? (i.e. to what level i should swap each one etc.) Also i thought that one that can't take a familliar in the first place (for example a draconic bloodline sorcerer) can't take the improved familliar feat.
As far as a bonded weapon might I suggest that that weapon be a staff? It has precedent"...knob on the end..." It is working well for my Wizard in "Council of Thieves."
Just one note on schools. If you are in an urban invironment you will need 'Disguise self' or 'Alter self' at some point. The first spell was so useful in our game that the first non-scroll magic item I made was a Hat of Disgiuse. It saved my bacon a number of times. Sure the DC was feeble but the baddies had to have a reason to question it to get a save. I wear the thing so much that I am forgetting what my character really looks like. I even used it to appear as a Hellknight to clear a crowd that was slowing me down as I ran from Hellknights.
So yes illusion school is a keeper. My forbiddens are necro and enchantment as I have a personal distaste for save or die spells.
I second your desire for a bonded item over a familiar. The wee besties are by far the better choice powerwise but they eat up gm face time. I started with a familiar and graduated to a consular Imp so I have experience as a wee bestie wrangler. As time went on I sttarted to feel guilty about the time it was taking to deal with the Imp's actions in addition to mu own. It was much worse when we were operating apart. From the gm face time perspective I was running 2 characters. Not good. So I talked the GM into letting me swap to bonded object. Things went MUCH more smoothly. Yes I lost a chunk o' power, but play for everyone was improved and as the man said "The play's the thing...."
~will
As far as a bonded weapon might I suggest that that weapon be a staff? It has precedent"...knob on the end..." It is working well for my Wizard in "Council of Thieves."
I thought about the staff but since i will be playing an elf i was thinking about picking a sword.
So yes illusion school is a keeper. My forbiddens are necro and enchantment as I have a personal distaste for save or die spells.
Yes that's what i am going to do.
Yes that's what i am going to do.
Cool. An elf wizard with a sword should rock. Heck with the right spells and properties that sword could even deliver the odd nasty suprise.
Have fun
~will
Isn't divination the school that can't be dropped?
That's what i thought myself but apperantly in pathfinder you can choose divination as one of your prohibited schools.
I think a lot has to do with the environment that the game is set in as well as the alignment of you and the group. If you are cruising around with a paladin, there is NO way he should be okay with you animating dead bodies. I could care less of the greater good theory, it just shouldnt be okay with him or a party of good aligned characters.
With that said, I love necromancy :)
I tend to drop Divination and Enchantment. Again, it depends on what you are doing. If you are playing in a dungeon crawler, its no big deal. But if you are playing Kingmaker, they will be important. But again, worst case you pay the -2 penalty and cast them when you need them which will be non combat.
A wizard without evocation is like going into a gunfight with a knife. Sure, Conjuration has some bang but much. Just like Necromancy has some bang but until you get Horrid Wilting, just not enough.
For instance, Colour Spray is awesome but I trained it out at level 4 for comprehend languages. It would still be good for a bit, but will eventually be useless because of the will save, illusion school and HD limit.
Isn't comprehend languages a spell that should be best be in a scroll and not in your list? (especially if you play a sorcerer)
The spellist was a cut/paste from an arcane blooded sorcerer I've been playing (modified for your dragon blood flavor).
Is that character a human? (i am asking this because i could use some help with the feats).
It's by far the best arcane sorcerer I've played. 3.5 always irked me on spells known. PF eased it with bloodlines and APG favored bonus sorted it completely.
I am very glad about that too.
The list above is only a suggestion, your trades should mostly to turn obselete low level 'I win' spells into low level no save or useful buffs/utilities.
Understood.
Enchantment and Evocation.
Cool. An elf wizard with a sword should rock. Heck with the right spells and properties that sword could even deliver the odd nasty suprise.
What? Can you please explain?
Also on the bonded object part, if i understand it correctly you can make this item a magic item without having to learn the feat to do that right? for example if i have a ring i can make it a ring of feather falling at some point without having to buy the feat right?