I think you can choose to fail the check to craft an item thus you can make a cursed item reliably.
So you attempt to make a Pro ring (get ring of truth) or a bag of tricks( getdust of sneezing) and get cursed version.
Cartigan has the right of it. What's the difference between having a ring that forces a Will save to not answer, and slapping someone into a zone where they have to save or say nothing and you can read their thoughts? You reduce the number of saves by one? Big deal.
I believe the OP point is that with the Truth spells and effects you can simply keep your mouth shut wether you save or not. Even if those spells work you can always shut your mouth and not give the truth and you can lie if you make your save.
With the cursed ring you tell the truth, period. If you fail a save you have to OFFER the truth. Only if you make your save can you simply shut up and even with a save you still cannot lie. With the ring that save is for each question not just once for the spell or effects.
Once the ring is removed the Duke can claim the ring forced him to confess.
Even if they get it on my finger. It's still my word against their's. I can claim the ring is magically enchanted to force someone
Truth
to confess to a crime they never commited and the PC's are trying to frame me.Lie. Can't do that.
"Guards! Get this ring off my finger! It's magically compelling me to say things I don't want to say!"
"It won't come off sir!"
"That's because it's bewitched you fool! Get me the priest! Get the court magician! It must be removed at once! You! There! Arrest those men! They assaulted me and are trying to incriminate me in a heinous crime!"
NOT. A. SINGLE. LIE.
Took me less then 4 seconds to come up with it.
A GM who can't handle something so simple probably shouldn't be GMing.
I think you can choose to fail the check to craft an item thus you can make a cursed item reliably.
So you attempt to make a Pro ring (get ring of truth) or a bag of tricks( getdust of sneezing) and get cursed version.
I don't think you can choose the curse when you fail a craft check, even if you do so deliberately. Your DM might be lazy and just take the nearest standard cursed item and make it, but he is just as likely to come up with his own unique cursed item.
I have the problem with removing it the first time.
PC: Father Mckinley, would you remove this cursed ring from my finger for 500 gold?
FM: What kind of cursed ring is it?
PC: It's a ring of truth. I thought it was protection from evil.
FM: Why remove it? Do you want to lie?
PC: Well, I might have to. How about 1,000 gold?
FM: Why would you have to lie? Why would anybody?
PC: Ummm, I may have to sneek into an evil temple, using a hat of disguise, or invisability, and the Orcs may ask, "Who's there." Look, I'll give you all my money, the ring, and the hat, just please get it off my finger. Sob.
If someone tried to make a ring of truth I would make it a cannible ring instead. :)
Sorry, I just noticed this has been moved to general discussion. I won't read or post here again.
The other thing to do with a Ring of Truth is to let the adventurers force it onto fingers of lackeys and servants and get them to confess all sorts of secrets which are social crimes, leading to tragedy all around--this character is gay, that one is having an affair, this other one is a half-ogre who was passing as human until the ring was forced onto her finger, that guy is completely human but has a half brother who's a tiefling, all manner of subject for gossip and scandal. Have a few innocent people's lives ruined by these revelations, maybe even culminating in a suicide or murder? Oh, the adventurers are going to feel like real heroes after using a cursed ring that way.
In a Medium or High magic world, I am pretty sure each land, nation, region, whatever, is going to have their own laws involving the use of magic.
I am pretty sure, unless it's a tyrannical government, that the use of divination magic on unwilling suspects due to infringement on privacy and probing someone else's mind unwillingly would be against the laws of that city-state, kingdom, etc.. At least in a LN, NG or LG where one would need telling evidence of the need to use one on a suspect. In chaotic societies, it'd be frowned upon completely.
A GM who can't handle something so simple probably shouldn't be GMing.Oh, you were doing so well, only to screw it up in the endgame.
Huh? What do you mean?
Cartigan has the right of it. What's the difference between having a ring that forces a Will save to not answer, and slapping someone into a zone where they have to save or say nothing and you can read their thoughts? You reduce the number of saves by one? Big deal.I believe the OP point is that with the Truth spells and effects you can simply keep your mouth shut wether you save or not. Even if those spells work you can always shut your mouth and not give the truth and you can lie if you make your save.
With the cursed ring you tell the truth, period. If you fail a save you have to OFFER the truth. Only if you make your save can you simply shut up and even with a save you still cannot lie. With the ring that save is for each question not just once for the spell or effects.
Hey, there's at least one person in this thread who got what I was trying to say when I described what the ring does. Bravo! :)
Sounds like a really good item to get a final confession when you know with absolute certainty who the criminal is, but for whatever reason the evidence is inadmissable or perhaps you are trying to protect your sources. Otherwise, doesn't really do much since there are so many mundane and magical ways to hide the truth that would have to be dealt with first.
Read the description again... the wearer cannot lie. He can just shut up or try to talk around the topic and even that costs him a will save.
No save required if the 'liar' believes he is telling the truth.
A DELIBERATE lie, not an unknowing one. This could lead to all sots of nastiness as some people genuinely believe little green men are running the White House, put a Ring on them and they will be seen as telling the 'truth'.
Just because someone believes something doesn't make it so.
The GM just needs to remember the item is a curse, not a default win.
Even Wishes have catches.
Villains who are really interested in keeping their fell deeds secret will be making heavy use of Modify Memory on convenient patsies who will then go and confess to the crime they thought they committed.
This isn't foolproof, but it's more than sufficient for most purposes.
To go really old school, wear a tremair stone, and you are immune to curses. Take the ring on and off as you like, and lie all the time while no one else can.
a cookie if you know where that little gem comes from.
==+Aelryinth
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The OP made several points. Some of them are completely correct.
1. The ring is resuable. IE, not a resource drain. Great for a party that doesn't want to as many spell slots to be reserved for utility stuff. In that sense, the ring is better than every other option mentioned. (zone of truth, detect thoughts, candle)
2. The save dc of 20 is irrelevant since questions can be repeated. This makes it strictly better than other single save spells.
3. Any out of combat situation where the players have regained control of the situation allows for quick and easy interrogations of all remaining/ alive enemies. So unless every mook you send at a the party has absolutely zero knowledge of their boss, they will quickly and easily solve a mystery.
How are you getting the ring off of the finger? Burning a 3rd or 4th level spell to remove it (along with making a CL check against a 19)? Killing the person who you just questioned?
There are many things in the RAW that, by themselves, are very powerful. The game is made so that it is expected of the GM to know what is going on in there game and pay attention to how new things will effect it. This goes doubly for things in the APG. After all, it is the "Advanced" guide. Things in this book require more thought, balance, and planning to add to a game.
If you are a new GM, your best bet is to start off with just the core books until you get the hang of the basic rules and understand how adding magic items and such like that can change how you want to play out your story. Or come to these boards and read and ask questions. I am not trying to shout down magnuskn, just pointing out that, as a GM, you do not need to add everything in the APG to your game. Heck, you do not have to add everything from the Core book to your game.
Huh? What do you mean?A GM who can't handle something so simple probably shouldn't be GMing.Oh, you were doing so well, only to screw it up in the endgame.
I think he means that your example was great, but then the assertion that anyone who couldn't think up that example on the fly shouldn't be a GM was wrong. And I agree with him. Great example, right up to the elitist remark at the end.
For those wondering about committing assault or whatnot to get the ring on the victim in the first place, there's always the Beguiling Gift spell in the APG.
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Seeing as this would probably count as torture and I'd slap a good-aligned Inquisitor with an alignment penalty, no, I got no problem with that spell. It still allows the wearer to just shut up and take the pain, which is a good way for a GM to play cult fanatics.Also, do you have any problems with the Confess Spell?
** spoiler omitted **
They either have to answer truthfully or eat damage (even on a successful save). Failure to answer is just like telling a lie for this spell. Heck gagging them so that they cannot answer counts as a lie even.
But you don't have any problems with a good aligned character using a cursed item that they may not be able to remove to ask questions? This is as much an evil act as casting a spell granted by your deity with no alignment attached to it. Confess is not an evil spell.
I view this cursed item as no better than casting dominate person and forcing them to answer all questions truthfully (one saving throw should be vs a 18-20 by that time, will last at least 9 days).
Be that as it may, even if you overpower the wicked duke, subdue all his guards, and get him to confess his laundry list of evil acts to all the assembled courtiers, dignitaries, and the couple pig farmers who were there to settle a legal dispute, what's this business about correctly identifying the ring? Who identifies it? The party? Yeah, like they're a really creditable source. The court wizard, who's obviously on the duke's payroll and while he has probably suspected something was up has turned a blind eye because accusing your employer is bad for job security and it's not like the next duke is going to want to keep a whistleblower on staff?
Yes, the party can convince the court wizard to Identify it and then testify to the court that it is indeed an accursed Ring of Truth, so all the duke's confessions must be true. That's nice. If the Duke ever gets free and overpowers the party, you can bet that he will claim that the party rogue used slight of hand to palm the accursed Ring of False Confession the party put on the duke's finger and then handed the court wizard the accursed Ring of Truth to identify--and the wizard, knowing which side his bread is buttered on, will readily agree. At that point the duke will just order a summary execution for all the adventurers, and if any courtier is dumb enough to suggest that the duke use the Ring of Truth to get the adventurers to confess, the duke will coldly inform him that any use of accursed magics to compel the will of another is a wicked deed and that will lead the country down a dark path from which it will never recover.
And you know what? He's right. Most people would rather live in a kingdom where the local duke secretly worships demons and sacrifices the occasional virgin on weekends than live in one where you can be magically compelled to confess every single crime, sin, or social awkwardness.
I think he means that your example was great, but then the assertion that anyone who couldn't think up that example on the fly shouldn't be a GM was wrong. And I agree.Huh? What do you mean?A GM who can't handle something so simple probably shouldn't be GMing.Oh, you were doing so well, only to screw it up in the endgame.
If that IS what he meant, then, well, I guess that's a fair enough statement.
Niffty item Ring of Truth.
Even so, the 2nd level Cleric spell Zone of Truth does almost the same thing.
Yes, the ring require a DC 20 check vs a direct question. Yes this last bit being added to the ring, should have been left off. But on well to late now.
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As a DM, how would i balance this out. THIS IS A CURSED ITEM. If the player does not get ride of the ring, once it is removed. Then the next time it is pulled out of a bag or backpack, would require the player with the ring to make a will save. Failed roll equals him putting the ring back on himself.
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Then the next time it is pulled out of a bag or backpack, would require the player with the ring to make a will save. Failed roll equals him putting the ring back on himself.
So you make players make Will saves to randomly put on items when they reach into a bag?
Then the next time it is pulled out of a bag or backpack, would require the player with the ring to make a will save. Failed roll equals him putting the ring back on himself.So you make players make Will saves to randomly put on items when they reach into a bag?
Cursed Backpack of Equipping? Automatically equips a cursed item contained within every time the character reaches inside.
I think the point that players and their GM's need to keep in mind has been raised a few times.
This is a cursed item, and should be used in a punitive fashion against all that employ it. It is not an awesome magic lie detector with a few riders.
You guys assume the party goes in the dumbest solution. Any party with this ring would obviously secure their neutral 3rd party before confronting the duke. I grow tired of your strawman argument. The players don't need to take the duke hostage. They have a ring that allows them to easily discover that the duke is the arch villain. Identifying a secret enemy is the most important part. Then they can prepare their strategy for exposing the duke's/villain's crimes. The ring can be utilized in this part or the players can go with another plan. The ring removes the detective work. Which is what we claimed from the start.
Entirely incorrect. Given the following scenario where the party (a) obtains a Ring of Truth; (b) identifies it AS a Ring of Truth; (c) thinks of any possible reason to use it on the Duke; (d) manages to get the Duke to wear the Ring of Truth; (e) thinks to ask the Duke about what he knows about whatever the macguffin/main story is, then the detective work certainly hasn't been removed. The only thing that has eliminated is whatever contrived plot line the DM has thought up for the game to follow.
Thepuregamer wrote:
without expending resources
uhh... Remove curse?
After you glean your important info from the minions by means of the Ring of Truth, what do you do? Gack them? And what do you do when you use the Ring on someone who is not a minion and honestly doesn't know a damn thing about any of the wicked plots the party wants to know about, but confesses that he will go and tell the duke exactly what the party did to him?
Yes, it's a truth spell that's retrievable by means of Remove Curse, but it's hardly foolproof, especially since any secret society with half a brain will use a lot of robes and masks so the underlings will only suspect but not know the identities of the higher ups.
No not incorrect. You pick the most pointless use of the ring to make yourself seem right. I point out that the ring helps you find out the duke is the villain without even involving putting the ring on the duke unless you assume that every minion of the dukes knows absolutely nothing. which is a tall order.
Then the Duke is the most incompetent "master villain" ever.
There will be minions with useful knowledge to be gleaned.
None that are any less inscrutable than the Duke himself.
Read the Godfather. Or The Adventure of the Final Problem.Any competent puppetmaster will separate himself such that any peon working for him will not have the slightest clue who he is working for.
The point is the ring allows you to identify your secret villain much more easily than usual
No, it doesn't.
and without expending resources in many adventuring parties.
Are you kidding me?
Not all parties will use remove curse on the foe. Assuming a good party that lets no evil enemies live, the ring is free to use with a swing of a sword. Assuming anything less than a good party, a swing of a sword is also a possible solution. If you were attacked by enemies while adventuring and one or 2 are captured while still alive, you have access to a free solution. If you have a goodie goodie paladin in the group and he is not ok with killing, he may just use lay on hands with the remove curse mercy after 9th level. But this does not represent all or even a majority of parties. Evil parties are definitely ok with killing. Neutral parties are probably ok with killing evil enemies and there exists a type of good party that still finishes off all evil enemies they find.uhh... Remove curse?Thepuregamer wrote:
without expending resources
Well I can intimidate for information and then kill and hide the body just as easily as you can use the ring of truth, same effect, no cursed item required.
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Not all parties will use remove curse on the foe. Assuming a good party that lets no evil enemies live, the ring is free to use with a swing of a sword. Assuming anything less than a good party, a swing of a sword is also a possible solution. If you were attacked by enemies while adventuring and one or 2 are captured while still alive, you have access to a free solution. If you have a goodie goodie paladin in the group and he is not ok with killing, he may just use lay on hands with the remove curse mercy after 9th level. But this does not represent all or even a majority of parties. Evil parties are definitely ok with killing. Neutral parties are probably ok with killing evil enemies and there exists a type of good party that still finishes off all evil enemies they find.uhh... Remove curse?Thepuregamer wrote:
without expending resources
You would slap the good aligned inquisitor who uses spells granted by their deity with an alignment penalty, but not the good aligned party who is forcing cursed items on people and either killing them afterward or trying to remove curse (which may or may not work)? That paladin needs to make a minimum roll of 13 on the d20 to remove that ring with the remove curse mercy @ level 9 (CL for the ring is 9, DC to remove curse an item is items CL+10, or 19 for this ring), I have a feeling that paladin would need an atonement for not acting with honor.
What is really comes down to is this. As the GM, do you control your game or not? If you are going to put that ring into a mystery game, make sure that you have worked it into the plot and have prepared for it. Failure to do so is not the fault of the game designers, but of the GM who failed to plan ahead.
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Easy, only put the ring on evil people. Many a party won't have a problem with killing them. I am not talking about going up to random people and dropping a ring on their hand.
How do you know that they are evil?
Per the spell detect evil they do not show up as evil unless they are one of the following:a) 5+HD aligned creature
b) aligned undead
c) aligned outsider
d) Cleric of an aligned deity (level 1+)
e) aligned magic item or spell (caster level 6+)
commoners just don't show up as evil. even if they are LE in alignment. Now, how are they not doing investigation? How many people must they shadow, talk to, search, etc, before they find someone who they can put this ring on? If the BEG gets wind of this they are going to be watching the character also to see what they are up to and to work out what they can do against it if it is a problem. That can be as simple as having the party arrested and stripped of all gear for breaking an entering.
Thepowergamer wrote:
Yeah but intimidate does not prevent lies. They provide you the information you want but this does not guarantee misinformation. They will answer your direct questions but you will need to confirm everything they tell you. Hardly equivalent to the ring.
It kinda does, otherwise you are calling this skill useless because everything you could possible gain from it could be faked. I don't think you want to go down the road of saying an entire skill is useless. By a RAW reading (because I'd rather not argue intent) it says they provide you with the information you want, so if they lie and I ever find out it is no longer the information I wanted and directly went against the effect I earned and I suppose the world explodes.
How do you know that they are evil?
And what would it matter if they were? Simply killing them is a CE act.
Intimidate doesn't guarantee truth, just fear... :p
Intimidate doesn't guarantee truth, just fear... :p
Why not? and what does fear do for you?
Intimidate doesn't guarantee truth, just fear... :p
Where does it say they have to tell you the truth? Nowhere I can see.
Easy, only put the ring on evil people. Many a party won't have a problem with killing them. I am not talking about going up to random people and dropping a ring on their hand.After you glean your important info from the minions by means of the Ring of Truth, what do you do? Gack them? And what do you do when you use the Ring on someone who is not a minion and honestly doesn't know a damn thing about any of the wicked plots the party wants to know about, but confesses that he will go and tell the duke exactly what the party did to him?
Yes, it's a truth spell that's retrievable by means of Remove Curse, but it's hardly foolproof, especially since any secret society with half a brain will use a lot of robes and masks so the underlings will only suspect but not know the identities of the higher ups.
So you're just going to put the ring on the finger of random evil people and expect that to work much better?
There are going to be plenty of conniving courtesans, ruthless rogues, and wicked wizards wandering around any court who have absolutely no idea what's going on with someone else's evil plot and much less care (unless it interferes with their own nefarious schemes) and any party of adventurers who just gacks them at random and dumps the bodies in the moat is going to be the subject of a murder investigation.
There's a rather absurd assumption in a lot of games that all evil people are part of some nefarious hive mind and automatically get along with each other and trade notes. This is absurd. So the duke is sacrificing innocent virgins to demons in his spare time. The courtesan, being neither innocent nor virginal, isn't that worried about being abducted herself and is going to be concentrating on getting the merchant's foolish son to marry her. The rogue is trying to steal something and move on to the next town, and his only interest in innocent virgins is depriving them of those qualities. The wizard is a necromancer posing as a humble historian researching the duke's archives the better to find out the names of the dead so he might summon them later and as such he really doesn't have time for foolishness like demon worship.
Yes, the GM should have a few people who are privy to the duke's awful secret, but not all of them should be evil. Maybe the duke's old nursemaid, being a clever old woman with a few levels in witch, figured this out. The duke keeps her around out of fondness and the fact that she's useful for raising his own children, but she's not evil because she has a hope that the dear sweet young child that she helped raise will grow out of this awful phase.
Unless the players do some good investigation, they're not going to find a suspect who actually knows something for the ring to be of use, and even then there's the downside of obviously using magic to extract a confession.
Intimidate doesn't guarantee truth, just fear... :pWhere does it say they have to tell you the truth? Nowhere I can see.
PRD wrote:
You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.
Success: If successful, the opponent will:
* give you information you desire
* take actions that do not endanger it
* offer other limited assistanceAfter the intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities.
First one on their is to give you information you desire, if they lie it wasn't the information you desired which means it goes directly against the ability.
First one on their is to give you information you desire, if they lie it wasn't the information you desired which means it goes directly against the ability.
That doesn't mean they start telling you how they wear womens underwear.
Even Diplomacy has a metric payload of heavy modifiers for getting them to tell secrets, especially dangerous ones.
If giving you information you desire would endanger them then you won't be getting it... thats covered in point TWO.
Point three 'limited assitance' kinda qualifies that they will indeed help you, but it is limited. They aren't going to put their neck on the line.
So your ability just isn't going to guarantee you a reliable answer.