| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
To answer the general question size bonuses do not normally stack on creatures as polymorph effects do not stack.
That being said I would not allow it at my table just for the cheese factor of rules stacking for a great bonus without any RP justification... but that is just at our home game and your DM may allow it.
But bonus points for finding a combo that could be fun in a twink game. :)
I only see one actual size change. Why wouldn't the spells stack? It doesn't say they won't in the spell descriptions.
Lead Blades is only melee weapons though. Sorry.
EDIT: I take that back. You meant for Lead Blades to target the Unarmed Strike.
I don't see why this shouldn't work.
Not sure about that damage progression though. Too tired to look it up.
the Zen archer bit is a little unclear. Enlarge person states /clearly/ the arrow returns to its normal size when it is fired. Also If you Enlarge your Bow then Fire using the en archer Bit i dont think it would stack.
do they all stack?
i would be achieving them through wands
enlarge person makes my fist go up a size. lead blade does it again. ki arrows uses my fist damage through my arrows. and then gravity bow for another size increase.
at lvl 5
D8 - 2D6 - 3D6 - 4D6 right?
Clearly goes against the intent of Lead Blades, but whatever :)
By 3.5 rules, yea, it'd be 4d6. I'm not sure what it'd be in PF rules though, as they don't really go into that.
For those wondering what would happen at level 20, this is what I think would happen given this build.
Here's the damage upgrade progression that I think would happen. Average damage is underneath the dice.
2d10 -> 4d8 -> 6d6 -> 6d8
11 -> 18 21 27
All damages listed below completely ignore all bonuses to damage, including those given by Zen Archer abilities.
Assume the following: Someone casts Enlarge Person on you.
On first round of combat, cast Lead Blades from a wand.
On second round, cast Gravity Bow from wand.
On third round, use Ki Arrows and Flurry of Blows. This will give 7 attacks, all of which do 6d8 damage.
During this round and all subsequent ones, you'll do on average 189 damage in a round.
If you hadn't spent those two rounds casting spells, and also not had Enlarge Person on you, you'd be doing on average 154 damage over those two rounds. If you had Enlarge Person on you, you'd be doing on average 252 damage over those two rounds.
Assuming you'd have Enlarge Person on you whether or not you use Lead Blades / Gravity Bow, combat would have to last 7 rounds to break even damage wise for not attacking during those first two rounds. On average, just Enlarge Person after 7 rounds will have done 882 damage. After 7 rounds (5 of which were attacking) with the Gravity Bow / Lead Blades build, you'll have done 945 damage.
conclusion: Casting those two spells hurts, especially since you'd get a great return just from Enlarge Person. Since most combats are over in 2 or 3 rounds, it might be best to not use the wands. If you can figure out how to make that buff stage only one round, then this build is a lot more powerful. Or if you know combat is going to consistently take over 6 rounds. I assume the results would be similar on lower dice damage.
I wouldn't bother, unless you can figure out how to cast both Lead Blades and Gravity Bow in one round.
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Enlarge Person clearly wouldn't stack with Gravity Bow or Ki Arrows, since any arrows fired when enlarged immediately return to normal size once they leave your bow.
I would allow Gravity Bow to stack with Ki Arrows, as both abilities appear to be an untyped bonus to damage dice (even if it's implied that it's a Size bonus).
I would also allow Enlarge Person to stack with Lead Blades, as one is a Size bonus, and the other is (apparently) untyped.
That being said, I would certainly think it reasonable for a DM to rule that they don't stack in his campaign, if he felt it overpowered (especially if he/she ruled that Gravity Bow, Lead Blades, and Ki Arrows all provided Size bonuses to damage.)
Even though I would allow some of this to stack, you'd better believe that you'd be seeing the same tactic used against you in the campaign. There are plenty of people that can cast 1st level spells, and PCs should never think that no one that came before them ever had a devious thought...
enlarge person to increase size and thus unarmed damage, lead blades to increase unarmed damage, ki arrow to use unarmed damage with a bow, gravity bow to increase bow damage. i don't see a problem with this, it requires at least 3 rounds of buffing, a high amount of skill point expenditure and at least 45 gold per fight. you also have to blow a Ki point every round
guess what?
rounds you spend buffing yourself with short lived wands are rounds you do not spend helping the party fight. less damage per round to the enemy means longer fights, longer fights mean more damage to the pcs. once the party sees this, expect them to deduct the cost of the CLW wands from your share of the treasure.
hear this advice,
don't blow through these wands, they aren't helping you at all, they are hurting the party a lot more than your minor damage buff helps you. focus on getting better permanant static modifiers. permanant static modifiers will help you much more than increased die rolling and they don't take as long to calculate. and the modifiers don't need as much financial expenditure nor as many rounds spent buffing either.
Enlarge Person clearly wouldn't stack with Gravity Bow or Ki Arrows, since any arrows fired when enlarged immediately return to normal size once they leave your bow.
Ki Arrows simply states that you use your unarmed strike damage as the damage for arrows you fire. Enlarge Person changing the arrow's size is irrelevant in this case, as it's being applied to your fists, and your fists are supplying the damage for the arrows.
Here's explicitly what happens, since I don't think I explained that well.
Enlarge Person increases the fist damage.
Lead blades increases the effective size.
Ki arrows transfers the damage of your fist to your arrows.
Gravity bow then increases the effective size again.
None of this damage relies on Enlarge Person affecting the arrows.
I would not allow two separate increases from weaponry. Gravity bow and lead blades are the same spell meant for ranged/melee. No way would I allow them both to affect a monk's unarmed damage.
Rules as intended, not loopholed.
Just wanted to add that to get both spells in one round, you could drop to monk 16 / ranger 4, and take Quicken Spell, 2 other metamagic feats, and Spell Perfection. Throw a monk's belt (or whatever adds 4 levels to your monk damage), and you'll have the same damage and number of attacks due to flurry of blows.
Clearly that'll only work on a NPC who is thrown against the party, or a character that starts at level 20.
i dont think gravity bow has any effect. it increases the arrow damage, but the ki points replace the arrow damage all together with your unarmed damage. gravity bow doesnt increse unarmed damage, and the arrow isnt doing damage by size.
but the enlarge and lead blades part works.
+1
Arrows stop doing their damage when you add the KI, it says replace the arrow damage with unarmed, not add too it
Arrows stop doing their damage when you add the KI, it says replace the arrow damage with unarmed, not add too it
Ki Arrows (Su): At 5th level, a zen archer may spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the damage dice of arrows he shoots to that of his unarmed strikes. This lasts until the start of his next turn. For example, a Medium zen archer's short bow normally deals 1d6 damage; using this ability, his arrows deal 1d8 damage until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces purity of body.
All Ki arrows does is let you spend a ki point to substitute your unarmed damage for the normal arrow damage. It doesn't imply anything about treating all arrows as unarmed strike. It just replaces the damage dice of the arrow.
Anyways, it barely matters because as long as arrows are still being fired, gravity bow will affect them. Arrows effectively become a size larger the instant before they're about to hit an enemy. I'm not so sure about Lead Blades anymore though, as they have the same "right before you hit..." fluff.
I could dip into cleric for a lvl to gain the growth subdomain. growing large as a swift. i lose a BAB for flurrying but monks robes makes up damage and ac. if i can convince a party ranger to cast blades or wizard for grav bow that is all 3 in 1 round.thoughts?
The cleric idea would mean you wouldn't have to rely on anyone else, which is nice. But Gravity Bow and Lead Blades unfortunately both have a range of Personal, so you need to cast them yourselves.
The weakest link in this idea, in my opinion, has always been Lead Blades. Enlarge -> Ki Arrow -> Gravity Bow should work though. Just spending the first round using Growth's power and casting Gravity Bow from a wand should work out. Yea, you do 6 less damage on average per arrow, but you get to attack much sooner. Granted, you only gain 3 average damage from Gravity Bow, so it might be worth it to just use Growth, then start plinking away.
Munchkin gone wild! I would definitely not let anything near this in my games. It moves to the lines of ridiculousness and falls under "The rules don't specifically say I can't" nonsense.
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Munchkin gone wild! I would definitely not let anything near this in my games. It moves to the lines of ridiculousness and falls under "The rules don't specifically say I can't" nonsense.+1
I thought that the natural progression of dice damage was:
1d4>1d6>1d8>2d4>1d10>1d12>2d6>2d8>3d6>3D8>4d6 >etc.
Munchkin gone wild! I would definitely not let anything near this in my games. It moves to the lines of ridiculousness and falls under "The rules don't specifically say I can't" nonsense.
You don't reward your players for creativity in game mechanics? And you expressly forbid attempts to make things interesting without applying an unbiased rubric?
Well, that doesn't sound very fun for your players...
Ki Arrows and Gravity Bow don't stack.
How much damage do small arrows do when you activate Ki Arrows? Your unarmed strike damage.
How much damage do medium arrows do when you activate Ki Arrows? Your unarmed strike damage.
How much damage do large arrows do when you activate Ki Arrows? Your unarmed strike damage.
Since an arrow shot with Ki Arrows no longer pays any attention to the size of the arrow, Gravity Bow doesn't do anything.
Ki Arrows and Gravity Bow don't stack.
How much damage do small arrows do when you activate Ki Arrows? Your unarmed strike damage.
How much damage do medium arrows do when you activate Ki Arrows? Your unarmed strike damage.
How much damage do large arrows do when you activate Ki Arrows? Your unarmed strike damage.
Since an arrow shot with Ki Arrows no longer pays any attention to the size of the arrow, Gravity Bow doesn't do anything.
+1
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Enlarge person does not stack with bows, because anything fired, returns back to normal size.
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Enlarge person and Lead Blades would stack... due to the way they wrote the fluff for lead blades. :( do not like it, but would allow it. ...."increases the momenturm and density"... were the key words there why i would allow it. The up one size category sounds like the game mechanic they used, and not the reason why.
I might actually allow Enlarge Person and Lead Blades to work with Ki Arrows because they both affect your unarmed strike damage.
enlarge person does stack with lead blades which then stacks with bows via ki arrows. plz read before spatting out info.
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I was talking about Enlarge Person would not stack with bows, as in Gravity bow. I never said Ki arrows.
I would not allow two separate increases from weaponry. Gravity bow and lead blades are the same spell meant for ranged/melee. No way would I allow them both to affect a monk's unarmed damage.
Rules as intended, not loopholed.
I agree - also if you are now just doing your UNARMED damage via the bow as a delivery system, then you aren't also able to claim the bow as well. Its either/or frankly.
Either you are doing your unarmed attack at range, OR you are using a bow.
I have a greatsword, 2d6. Leadblades makes it 3d6. If I have time to cast enlarge, what would 3d6 go up to?
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posts like this crop up every couple months.
A wand of enlarge costs 750g
A wand of lead blades costs 750g
A wand of gravity bow 750g
Using all three? Means you won't get to engage until the 4th round of combat.
Also, it's very much a dm call as to whether any of these abilities would stack. Enlarge increases your size, which increases your unarmed damage. But it is also specific about ranged attacks, so a dm could rule that the bonus from your enlarged fist is similarly reduced when fired.
Lead blades as well...
And, from the other angle, gravity bow.
So ask your dm :p
I think that gravity bow working makes more sense then lead blade. My understanding is that a monk gets extra damage(in the form of bigger dice) for his unarmed strikes because he is learning to focus is chi or ki better. It's a function of skill rather than actual lethality of his fists. Now he gets more damage for being larger sure, but that's simply because he's fists are bigger.
I think that in the case of two spells increasing the weight and momentum of an attack, making your fists heavier would not make you more able to extend your chi into an arrow any better, but making that chi focused arrow heavier may just give it an extra punch. But if you enlarge yourself your unarmed damage may go up, but if your arrow goes back down a size it seems reasonable that it would still back the same about of chi channeling skill that it did when you were that size. It would be different if it didn't shrink mid flight, but since it does it would require that what ever damage it was doing would shrink with it.
"How much damage do small arrows do when you activate Ki Arrows? Your unarmed strike damage."
but if you fired an unarmed strike damage dealing small arrow at 1d8 and then the arrow shrunk to tiny size mid flight? wouldn't it go down a size category for damage too?
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Nope. They're really not. With the addition of the brass knuckles, they are easily comparable to fighters in damage, plus they've got all those other monk-only goodies. And they can profit from more types of magic as well since they are valid targets for natural spells.
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*sigh*
Well, I'm not finished with all the variations I'm playing around with here, but here's the data I've accumulated so far on an arms race between an optimized 2-hander fighter and an optimized monk. DPR comparisons.
Here's the level 20 monk calculations.
Iteration Two
Weapon of Choice: Brass Knuckles 2d10, 19-20/x2
Attack Bonus: (Str +7, WF +1, BAB +18)
26/26/21/21/16/16/11 (flurry) 26/22/17/17/12/12/7 (flurry power attacking)
Damage 37 total: 2d10(11)+7(str)+5(weapon)+3.5(flaming)+3.5(frost)+3.5(shock)+3.5(corrosive) 45 total: 2d10(11)+7(str)+8 (power attack)+5(weapon)+3.5(flaming)+3.5(frost)+3.5(shock)+3.5(corrosive)
DPR 173.8075 166.8375
Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Fleet
Improved Grapple
Weapon Focus
Power Attack -4/+8
Improved Disarm
Furious Focus
Precise Strike
Improved Critical
Deadly Aim
Critical Focus
Medusa's Wrath
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Spring Attack
Fleet
Gear:
+5 flaming frost shock corrosive ki focus Brass Knuckles
And the level 20 fighter calculations
Iteration Two
Weapon of Choice: Greatsword 2d6, 19-20/x2 Weapon mastery
Attack Bonus: (Str +7, WF +1, GWF +1, BAB +20, Weapon Training 4, +5 Weapon)
38/33/28/23 (normal) 33 first attack/ 22/17/12 subsequent (power attacking)
Damage 44 total: 2d6(7)+(10 str)+(4 weapon training)+(2 specialization)+(2 greater weapon specialization)+5(weapon)+3.5(flaming)+3.5(frost)+3.5(shock)+3.5(acidic) 59 total: 2d6(7)+ (10 str)+(2 specialization)+(+2 greater weapon specialization)+(15 power attack)+(4 weapon training)+5(weapon)+3.5(flaming)+3.5(frost)+3.5(shock)+3.5(corrosive)
DPR 180.4 197.65
(auto-crits confirmed, multiplier increased by one multiplier.)
Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave
Furious Focus
Dodge
Weapon Specialization
Great Cleave
Vital Strike
Improved Initiative
Greater Weapon Focus
Critical Focus
Improved Critical: Greatsword
Bleeding Critical
Greater Weapon Specialization
Improved Vital Strike
Shield of Swings
Blind Fight
Greater Vital Strike
Precise Strike
Fleet
Fleet
Fleet
Gear:
+5 flaming frost shock corrosive bane Greatsword
DPR calculations follow this format:
(damage times chance to hit) plus ((damage times chance to crit) times chance to hit)
There is always a .05 chance to hit or miss, indicating a roll of 1 or 20. Each number from 1-20 has a 5% chance of occuring, thus everything is in increments of .05
Given a target AC of 20, and an attack bonus of 13, we know that a roll of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 will miss. That's a 30% chance to miss, or a 70% chance to hit.
If the critical damage is x2, the range is 19-20, and the average weapon damage is 7, we can write the formula. Thusly, the math would look like this:
(7*.7) + ((7*.1)*.7)
It translates into:
(damage times chance to hit) + ((damage times chance to crit)times chance to hit)
Target ac is taken from the bestiary.
The 20th fighter's calculations look a bit different because of the capstone, but here are the actual numbers that derive the DPR for the 20th fighter:
regular attack =((44*0.95)+((44*1.5)*0.2))+((44*0.9)+((44*1.5)*0.2))+((44*0.65)+((44*1.5)* 0.2))+((44*0.4)+((44*1.5)*0.2))
power attack =((59*0.95)+((59*1.5)*0.2))+((59*0.65)+((59*1.5)*0.2))+((59*0.4)+((59*1.5)* 0.2))+((59*0.15)+((59*1.5)*0.2))
And for the 20th monk:
regular attack =(37*0.8)+((37*0.1)*0.95)+(37*0.8)+((37*0.1)*0.95)+(37*0.8)+((37*0.1)*0.95) +(37*0.55)+((37*0.1)*0.75)+(37*0.55)+((37*0.1)*0.75)+(37*0.3)+((37*0.1)*0.5 )+(37*0.3)+((37*0.1)*0.5)+(37*0.05)+((37*0.05)*0.25)
power attack =(45*0.8)+((45*0.1)*0.95)+(45*0.65)+((45*0.1)*0.85)+(45*0.65)+((45*0.1)*0.8 5)+(45*0.4)+((45*0.1)*0.6)+(45*0.4)+((45*0.1)*0.6)+(45*0.15)+((45*0.1)*0.35 )+(45*0.15)+((45*0.1)*0.35)+(45*0.05)+((45*0.05)*0.05)
These are the results on a level-by-level breakdown.
Level:..Monk Normal.....Fighter Normal.....Monk Power Attack.....Fighter Power attack
1..........11.60..................12.32.................................... ...................14.03
2..........11.60..................12.32.................................... ...................14.96
3..........13.97..................13.20.................................... ...................15.84
4..........21.50..................14.03.................................... ...................18.98
5..........25.36..................16.72......................31.89......... ...............22.00
6..........35.62..................30.31......................38.25......... ...............37.13
7..........38.98..................34.10......................46.86......... ...............40.04
8..........61.03..................44.28......................68.59......... ...............54.56
9..........56.96..................46.20......................63.47......... ...............56.27
10.........68.06..................54.00......................75.54......... ...............65.28
11.........90.20..................61.56......................89.05......... ...............72.00
12.........104.50................93.84.....................104.01.......... .............99.36
13.........122.27................110.88....................118.85.......... ............121.20
14.........136.48................120.96....................131.86.......... ............129.60
15.........138.96................123.48....................138.89.......... ............127.44
16.........179.73................153.51....................175.76.......... ............154.57
17.........179.73................164.56....................175.76.......... ............167.56
18.........179.73................164.56....................175.76.......... ............167.56
19.........179.73................164.56....................175.76.......... ............167.56
20.........173.81................180.40....................166.84.......... ............197.65
If you'll notice, the monk comes out ahead on damage per round on levels 4, and 11-19.
Though I'm not touching the casters > noncasters stuff
-- edited to add actual calculation process for the curious--
why, does the monk's damage go -down- at 20th level?
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why, does the monk's damage go -down- at 20th level?
Good question -- the answer is because the target ac at 19th level is 34, and at 20th level it's 36.
Because the target ac is harder to hit at 20th, the average damage per round is less.
And, again, the target ac is taken from the bestiary charts.
26/26/21/21/16/16/11 (flurry) 26/22/17/17/12/12/7 (flurry power attacking)
The power attack flurry routine should be 20/20/15/15/10/10/5, and power attack should give +12 damage. While flurrying, the monk's BAB is 20, and they take the power attack bonuses/penalties appropriately. Also, furious focus only works on a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, so you need to trade that out for something else.
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On the original topic, I hold that any reference to a monk's "unarmed damage" or "unarmed strike damage" refers to the table of monk unarmed damage, not "whatever your fists are currently doing." So lead blades wouldn't help (it affects the weapons, not you), enlarge person would (because it changes the size you are, and thus you use the Large unarmed strike table), and gravity bow would be a GM call. I'd rule against it because "Any arrow fired from a bow or crossbow you are carrying when the spell is cast deals damage as if one size larger than it actually is" but it doesn't matter what size the arrow is when you're using Ki Arrows.
Specifically, if you're a medium creature wielding a shortbow that's one size too small for you (thus, sized for a small character), you would normally be shooting for 1d4 damage. Gravity bow would boost that to 1d8. However, if you were a 20th level zen archer using ki arrows, you would be shooting for 2d10 damage, even from your small shortbow. That's the same damage you'd get from an appropriately sized longbow while using Ki Arrows. Thus the bow size doesn't matter, and gravity bow doesn't help.
posts like this crop up every couple months.
A wand of enlarge costs 750g
A wand of lead blades costs 750g
A wand of gravity bow 750gUsing all three? Means you won't get to engage until the 4th round of combat.
It would be stupid to spend four rounds getting these buffs, but enlarge and leadblades are minutes/level spells so they can be cast before combat. Anything that can be cast before combat should be.
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The power attack flurry routine should be 20/20/15/15/10/10/5, and power attack should give +12 damage. While flurrying, the monk's BAB is 20, and they take the power attack bonuses/penalties appropriately. Also, furious focus only works on a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, so you need to trade that out for something else.
I actually ran into this problem in a thread a while back. There was an argument there that power attack would only contribute = to the non-flurry bab due to the line "for all other purposes, ..., the monk uses his normal base attack bonus...
Anyhow, good catch on the furious focus call. I'll have to fix that :p Kind of funny, though not unexpected really, that power attack actually reduces the monks average damage around 10-11.
It would be stupid to spend four rounds getting these buffs, but enlarge and leadblades are minutes/level spells so they can be cast before combat. Anything that can be cast before combat should be.
you're assuming that the party knows that combat is coming.
Also earlier there was a question about damage progression.
Text for Improved Natural Attack
The damage for this natural attack increases by one step on the following list, as if the creature's size had increased by one category. Damage dice increase as follows: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
Now I'm firmly in the "most of these don't stack or even effect the arrows if they do" camp, but assuming that all 4 stack you would have
4d6 damamge (1d8 ki> 2d6 EP > 3d6 GB > 4d6 LB)Magicdealer, don't forget that a Monk can use 1 ki/round to get an additional attack at max BAB when flurrying. With a ki pool equal to 1/2 lvl +WIS, it's safe to assume that Wis is at least the second highest stat, so he can use it for 16 rounds/day.
Magicdealer, don't forget that a Monk can use 1 ki/round to get an additional attack at max BAB when flurrying. With a ki pool equal to 1/2 lvl +WIS, it's safe to assume that Wis is at least the second highest stat, so he can use it for 16 rounds/day.
It's also not factoring in Medusa's Wrath's extra two attacks - at 20 uses a day, you have 7 chances to land a stunning fist, which will then trigger two more full-BAB attacks. Assuming that you count brass knuckles as unarmed strikes for Medusa's Wrath (I don't). Even if you don't, you could still theoretically hit with the BKs and stunning fist until you succeed, then unarmed strikes (with the corresponding loss of damage) until you hit there and get your bonus two attacks, then switch back to brass knuckles for the rest. But that's *really* hard to calculate, and starts getting into the simulation-only territory.
you're assuming that the party knows that combat is coming.
No, I am not. I am merely stating that when you have time to buff, these spells are great. If you have to cast them in combat, you should probably be doing something else.
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Yeah, it's purposely not factoring in medusa's strike. another argument on the same thread, but I didn't want to put in too many conditional modifiers either. Also, things get a little hairy when trying to calculate dpr over multiple rounds, taking into account the lost attacks for the stunning fist and accounting for the chance of success/failure on the save.
I actually find it pretty ridiculous that someone would make a dps monk and NOT max their strength out. The viewpoint that a monk's strength should be lower is a good example of how assumptions can cause us to unconsciously weaken a specialized build.
And, again, the target armor class is taken from the bestiary. If you give a creature a particularly high ac, then you need to account for that in the challenge rating. Also, with the way that dpr works, up to a certain point - ac of 52 or so - the monk will take a greater hit to damage than the fighter. After that point, the monk will deal the same damage as the fighter's dpr continues to reduce. At 61 ac or so, the monk will have a substantial dpr advantage over the fighter because both will require a roll of 20 to hit, and the monk has many more attacks to roll.
Side note -- why fight the summoner's eidolon instead of just finding/killing the summoner him/herself? And if you can't *find* the summoner... well, the monk at least is fast enough to get away.
Anyways, like I mentioned earlier, I'm only through with the second iteration at the moment. I still need to finish the other three, and check for bugs/errors and so-on.
As for the character specifics, see the spoiler below:
Both characters use 25 point buy. Considering this is a dpr calculation, stats are allocated as much as possible to increase damage.
Base stats:
Fighter stats:
Strength 20
Dexterity 16
Constitution 16
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 7
Charisma 7
Monk stats:
Strength 20
Dexterity 16
Constitution 11
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 14
Charisma 7
Stats at level 20 for iteration 2:
Fighter stats:
Str 25
Dex 16
Con 16
Int 7
Wis 7
Cha 7
Monk stats:
Str 25
Dex 16
Con 11
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 7
I'm actually working through several different *variations* to account for differences in magical gear allocation. The example posted above was for both builds acquiring magical weapon bonuses *and only magical weapon bonuses* as quickly as possible. The second iteration, as described below.
Here's a copy/paste of my introduction page.
---------------------------------------------------------------
The overall purpose of this comparison is to evaluate the truth/myth behind monk sub-par combat performance when examined within the bounds of the additional content of the APG.
Suggestions will be taken under consideration, and changes made when possible to improve the overall DPR of each class.
These builds are meant to be as non-contraversial as possible. However, the monk especially is prone to contraversy.
Since this *is* a dpr comparison, minimal weight and attention will be given to roleplay or non-combat significant stats and abilities.
This comparison is a straight build of both classes, no multiclassing allowed.
For level one, maximum starting gold per class will be allowed, not that it is terribly relevant.
Class abilities will be expected to be active during this comparison. Examples are the monk's Ki point extra attack, and the fighters weapon mastery ability.
DPR calculations follow this format:
(damage times chance to hit) plus ((damage times chance to crit) times chance to hit)
There is always a .05 chance to hit or miss, indicating a roll of 1 or 20. Each number from 1-20 has a 5% chance of occuring, thus everything is in increments of .05
Given a target AC of 20, and an attack bonus of 13, we know that a roll of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 will miss. That's a 30% chance to miss, or a 70% chance to hit.
If the critical damage is x2, the range is 19-20, and the average weapon damage is 7, we can write the formula. Thusly, the math would look like this:
(7*.7) + ((7*.1)*.7)
It translates into:
(damage times chance to hit) + ((damage times chance to crit)times chance to hit)
The first iteration of this comparison will be between the two classes with minimal gear - weapon and class bonuses only.
The second iteration will include magical weapons only
The third iteration will include magical weapons, and permanent magical items only.
The fourth iteration will include everything possible from the books to enhance combat ability.
The fifth iteration will consist of what I consider to be a realistic look at expenditures. Each level, the wealth is broken down into subcategories. 5% is considered expended. 15% is considered to be utility items such as non-magical gear, and the odd bag of holding/boots of flying. The remaining 80% is divided into two 40% sections for weapons and armor.
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Here are the details of the to-hit for the fighter and monk in those calculations:
Fighter: (Str +7, WF +1, GWF +1, BAB +20, Weapon Training 4, +5 Weapon)
Monk: (Str +7, WF +1, BAB +18, +5 Weapon)
Apparently I got lazy at some point, and stopped updating the total attack bonus in some places - not in a way that affects the DPR calculations themselves. With the info I've posted, you should be able to verify that for yourself if you wish. What can I say -- it's a rough draft with 42 or 43 spreadsheet pages.
I would allow the Enlarge and the Lead Blades to stack, but not the Gravity bow. The Enlarge person specifically states that ranged attacks resume their normal size when fired I would say that portion does not work with ranged attacks of any kind.
As far as the Lead Blades and Gravity Bow being untyped bonus's and stacking that leads to a much worse abuse. Since an untyped bonus stacks with other untyped bonus's you could keep casting them again and again. Don't bother with the other spells just cast Gravity Bow three times.
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enlarge person to increase size and thus unarmed damage, lead blades to increase unarmed damage, ki arrow to use unarmed damage with a bow, gravity bow to increase bow damage. i don't see a problem with this, it requires at least 3 rounds of buffing, a high amount of skill point expenditure and at least 45 gold per fight. you also have to blow a Ki point every round
guess what?
rounds you spend buffing yourself with short lived wands are rounds you do not spend helping the party fight. less damage per round to the enemy means longer fights, longer fights mean more damage to the pcs. once the party sees this, expect them to deduct the cost of the CLW wands from your share of the treasure.
hear this advice,
don't blow through these wands, they aren't helping you at all, they are hurting the party a lot more than your minor damage buff helps you. focus on getting better permanant static modifiers. permanant static modifiers will help you much more than increased die rolling and they don't take as long to calculate. and the modifiers don't need as much financial expenditure nor as many rounds spent buffing either.
+1 I completely agree. Buffing yourself is acceptable when there is time. That time is not in combat while your companions are dying. I have encountered this with some players at a number of PFS tables. It becomes extremely frustrating especially when players are dropping in combat and you're sitting there trying to get yourself to be as awesome as possible.
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I actually find it pretty ridiculous that you are attempting to offer a dpr build whose armor class is going to be pitifully low without major equipment investment in defense(20 @ lvl 20 with 16 dex and 14 wis). How did you this monk survive until lvl 20?
Easy -- by killing things before they kill him. The monk is to touch ac what the fighter is to regular ac. Trying to keep up with the fighter there is... not such a good idea for a dps character. And it shows a lack of understanding as to the monk class in general. Also, it seems to assume that the monk is soloing his way up. There are other party members that fill rolls like tanking or healing...
actually if you face a lvl 20 summoner and his eidolon in combat, that is a CR 19 combat. So just going with the armor class taken from the bestiary is hardly representative of all the CR 20 combats these example characters face.
Yep. And, like I said, if you raise a character's ac, you need to adjust the cr. For a 20 summoner with a pet out, it's just as stupid to attack the pet as it is to ignore a cleric in favor of his summoned creatures. Obviously, no one set of stats is "representative" of all creatures from the book. However, without a basic guideline to compare values against, no dpr calculation can be measured against another one.
this is an example of how you are reducing the value of your comparison. Using the Epic fantasy point buy allotment helps the monk the most. Because he suffers from MAD. The fighter only needs focus on 1 or 2 stats in comparison and can be successfully optimized with lower point buys. If we drop this down to a 20 point buy or even a 15 point buy(otherwise known as "standard" fantasy) the fighter will still be able to get all the stats he needs.
I *could* take the monk with *this* array:
str 20dex 13
con 11
int -7
wis 12
cha -7
and run the exact same damage. And, btw, that's a 15 point buy. Point buy doesn't matter that much.
Further your multiple step dpr comparison is not likely to give much useful information. Very few games are played with just your weapons. Also these kinds of dpr comparisons do now show how the characters spend their wealth to obtain certain defense minimums.contained in your comparison are several assumptions:
1. High point buy(favors monk)
2. Survivability is not an issue(favors monk who have generally lower ac).
3. Target ACs are low(favors monk as well). A dpr spread against a range of ACs would give a more complete picture. If the monk only has equivalent dpr while facing the mooks but loses his effectiveness against a boss, then he is weak in combat compared to the full bab classes.If you have to give multiple advantages to a monk to break even I do not see how you will be terribly convincing.
Well... the greatsword/greataxe provide the best dpr return for a fighter. For a monk, it's going to be brass knuckles... but hey, it's a DPR CALCULATION. It's like you're arguing that I should pick less effective weapons when I'm calculating for maximum damage per round. And dpr calculations are usually pretty useful. At the very least, I'm getting some good information from the numbers.
1. High point buy - doesn't make a difference either way
2. Survivability is not an issue -- because it's a dpr calculation... It's not like the fighter is treated any differently in any of these calculations. Besides, if you'll note in my copy/paste from my intro page, each of these derivations have very specific elements associated with them. The third, fourth, and fifth iterations all include budgets for defensive items *surprise!*.
3 Target AC's are the average listed from the CRB. If you think they're low, then you need to take it up with the creators of the game for not making the average monster harder to hit. Seriously. The monk has a number of special abilities that can come into play against a boss. They're just too situational to reasonably add to the dpr calculations. As for spreads against multiple ac's... that's something I'd consider adding in once I complete the five basic derivations.
Every time monk-fighter dpr calculations come up, someone starts crying about how the math is unfair, the numbers are biased, and there's no way a monk could EVER stand up to a fighter in terms of damage. Is there some cultural taboo I don't know about here? I would think people would be more interested in actually comparing data than in trying to prevent it from appearing in the first place.
Lemme put this another way. You're welcome to put together your own 40+ page spreadsheet for two classes with five derivations over twenty levels. When you do, you can put in whatever limitations or requirements that you feel will show the best contrast. The specifications for each derivation are pretty clear. If you have questions, ask them. If you'd like to suggest additional derivations to be included, I don't see any reason why I can't add them to the to-do list.
Oh, and if you can come up with a more optimized 2-handed weapon fighter or monk build that doesn't use archetypes, traits, or materials other than those contained in the CRB or the APG, I'd be happy to substitute it in.