I am starting a new campaign this week and one of my players had the rather unique idea of playing a neutral cleric of Sarenrea who uses Animate Dead and nercomancy in an attempt to "redeem" evil creatures by allowing them to serve a greater purpose after their death.
Personally I love this idea for it's flavor potential, the only problem is that worshipping a good aligned deity prevents him from even using raise dead at all. Not to mention that he can't take Command Undead if he wants to channel positive energy.
I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how I can allow him to play the character he desires? Should I simply house rule him as an exception to the spell alignment rules and say he has come to some sort of arrangement with his deity? Is it viable to use undead without having Command Undead? Or should we simply sit down and make an entirely new character idea that is less of a headache to implement?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Well there is two issues, one the player isis just trying to justify using an evil spell. The second more important part is in most undead especially the unintelligent ones the persons soul has no connection to their animated body. The corpse is infused with negative energy and given the power to move.
It likely goes against church doctrine, though I am not read up on serenrae.
There is an exception for the Oracle of the JuJu mystery. Her animate dead spells are explicitly considered neutral for unintelligent and your alignment for intelligent undead. The rationale is that you are channeling "wendo" spirits. You can find the mystery in one of the Serpent Skull AP Books. No reason you can't say it is some holy scion of Sarenrae. Fluff is easily changed.
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I am starting a new campaign this week and one of my players had the rather unique idea of playing a neutral cleric of Sarenrea who uses Animate Dead and nercomancy in an attempt to "redeem" evil creatures by allowing them to serve a greater purpose after their death.
Personally I love this idea for it's flavor potential, the only problem is that worshipping a good aligned deity prevents him from even using raise dead at all. Not to mention that he can't take Command Undead if he wants to channel positive energy.
I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how I can allow him to play the character he desires? Should I simply house rule him as an exception to the spell alignment rules and say he has come to some sort of arrangement with his deity? Is it viable to use undead without having Command Undead? Or should we simply sit down and make an entirely new character idea that is less of a headache to implement?
Any advice would be appreciated.
If you and your player like the idea, go for it. Don't let the rules stand in the way of a good game.
Having said that, I'm thinking that this is definitely a departure from the standard teaching of the Dawnflower's. And as such there are most likely some more traditional worshipers who see your player as misguided if not a dangerous heratic. Even if Sarenrae is showing her support by granting access to her divine magic, I can see some followers acting against the player. There are some good story hooks there.
Just a couple of thoughts.
i did something very similar before in the past but not with clerk. his reasoning behind my casting evil spells for good was the necromancer did not thank he was evil nor did he do any evil where he came from it was not evil to make undead not that it still did not make trouble for him
I say go for it! This is an awesome concept, but it will require a bit of tweaking. I recently played a necromancer, and I can say with confidence that undead aren't as useful as summoned critters. I'd recommend a few changes (to prevent your player from exploiting the system):
- All summoned undead must have an intelligence score. If it's not intelligent, then it doesn't have a soul, which means it can't repent. Give it the creature's original INT score.
- These undead aren't [Evil] aligned, but rather maintain their original (and hopefully modified) alignment. Being alive they are free to make decisions, and must choose to repent for their crimes. Odds are, they've seen the afterlife and may not like what they found.
- Because they're not mindless, don't give the player complete control over them. Run opposed charisma checks when you ask for something against its nature, and make the cleric responsible for the actions.
- I don't see a cleric of any good god being okay with the idea of undead just up and running around. Modify the spell to instead be on a duration (say, 1 day/level) in which the creature has the opportunity to repent for its crimes. Make the spell dismissable, so that if things get out of control the cleric can simply end it before the creature causes too great of harm. Also, you can only ever cast the spell on a single creature once. Mindless/dumb/non-evil creatures are immune to the raise dead spell.
- With the restrictions, consider adjusting the regular animate dead spell. Perhaps 2HD/level, but only one creature could ever be affected at any time.
I wouldn't run with the regular rules, but I really do love the idea. Just make sure your player isn't simply trying to exploit the system to get access to undead minions without having to deal with all the evil repercussions.
Well, I played a character like that once in a Forgotten Realms game. His justification was that he would channel the spirits of unspecified :D ancestors which would then inhabit undead bodies in order to redeem themselves.
While I liked the idea, I quickly noticed that it was a pain to actually play the character. While my initial idea of creating intra-party discussion about the subject 'is necromancy necessarily evil?' worked out, it was still difficult, because everywhere we interacted with NPCs the character was naturally met with distrust and suspicion. Also, the intra-party discussion never really went anywhere, to the point where everyone just tended to handwave everything my character was doing as 'oh, okay, he's helping the party out, so I guess the whole undead shtick is all right. Hey, can you summon a bigger skeleton?'. At this point, I abandoned the character.
While I don't think the rules themselves would be too much of a problem, I'd advise you to only allow the character if a) you either have a campaign planned out that revolves around a 'spirit-ual' theme no matter what, or b) you are very sure that the party interaction revolving around this character will actually lead somewhere.
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Even if Sarenrae is showing her support by granting access to her divine magic, I can see some followers acting against the player. There are some good story hooks there.
Who says it's Sarenrae granting the spells? If you want to really have fun let the player think he is channelling the power of Sarenrae when in fact he is being granted power by, say, Norgorber.
Watch his reaction when it's finally revealed that his power comes from a very different source than he thought...
I do like the concept, and I don't think it's a thinly veiled attempt to BS his way past the rules as he has been thinking of playing this type of character for a long time now.
Both the player and myself are aware that there is no real connection between an animated corpse and the person it used to be. It's more of a personal gratification thing for the char, which I think is fine. After all, just because you believe something doesn't make it correct, or even particularly logical.
I have already talked to him about the fact that even though I can see Sarenrea accepting his characters motives, he should have no delusions that most of her other followers will ;) I already have several idea on how to make things difficult for such an unusual character, ranging from the local church of Sarenrea performing a "cleansing" of certain corrupted members of the local populace, to dealing with recruitment attempts from a cult of the Pallid Princess.
I say go for it! This is an awesome concept, but it will require a bit of tweaking. I recently played a necromancer, and I can say with confidence that undead aren't as useful as summoned critters. I'd recommend a few changes (to prevent your player from exploiting the system):
All summoned undead must have an intelligence score. If it's not intelligent, then it doesn't have a soul, which means it can't repent. Give it the creature's original INT score.
These undead aren't [Evil] aligned, but rather maintain their original (and hopefully modified) alignment. Being alive they are free to make decisions, and must choose to repent for their crimes. Odds are, they've seen the afterlife and may not like what they found.
Because they're not mindless, don't give the player complete control over them. Run opposed charisma checks when you ask for something against its nature, and make the cleric responsible for the actions.
I don't see a cleric of any good god being okay with the idea of undead just up and running around. Modify the spell to instead be on a duration (say, 1 day/level) in which the creature has the opportunity to repent for its crimes. Make the spell dismissable, so that if things get out of control the cleric can simply end it before the creature causes too great of harm. Also, you can only ever cast the spell on a single creature once. Mindless/dumb/non-evil creatures are immune to the raise dead spell.
With the restrictions, consider adjusting the regular animate dead spell. Perhaps 2HD/level, but only one creature could ever be affected at any time.
I wouldn't run with the regular rules, but I really do love the idea. Just make sure your player isn't simply trying to exploit the system to get access to undead minions without having to deal with all the evil repercussions.
Thanks for the suggestions, I am not sure this is exactly the flavor he is wanting, however it may actually be even better. I will definitely be posing the idea to him.
Who says it's Sarenrae granting the spells? If you want to really have fun let the player think he is channelling the power of Sarenrae when in fact he is being granted power by, say, Norgorber.
Watch his reaction when it's finally revealed that his power comes from a very different source than he thought...
That's a brilliant idea, if we go with his current concept I will most likely be doing this! Can't wait to see his face, or the party's for that matter if I can trick them into doing something particularly horrible ;)
What about finding a way to make it so that he isn't creating undead? Spells like Animate Object can simulate the same effect. Being a 6th level spell it's not something he can use right away but it's just something that popped in my head.
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[tangent] I played a Dark Ages of Camelot Spiritmaster (a kind of necromancer that calls upon the forces of Nifleheim, including the spirits of the dishonored dead) whose backstory was that she was out hunting when her ill father and little brother were killed. It was a 'straw death,' that would result in their going to Nifleheim (heavy snow collapsed the roof of their house, crushing them), and she turned to Hel to learn to conjure the spirits of the dead in the hopes of learning how to summon the spirits of her deceased family members, so that they could fight the foes of Midgard and 'die a warrior's death' and (she hoped) earn respite from Nifleheim and a chance at Valhalla through these posthumous heroics. (At the time, you summoned a random figure, which could be any of the four common races, or either gender, and I made a point of dismissing and re-summoning until I got a male human figure, just to keep the character 'in-theme.' These days, they've updated the game with the ability to choose the race and gender of your summoned spirit, so I wouldn't have to do that.) [/tangent]
Random thoughts;
1) Sarenrae, apart from Pharasma, is probably the worst choice for this sort of concept. Some other good gods, like Iomedae (loyalty beyond death, get up soldier!) or Erastil (protecting the living family, even beyond the grave) could, in theory, have their tenets skewed in such a way as to allow a very limited use of this sort of concept, but Sarenrae (and Pharasma) are both very anti-undead.
2) Note that many house-rule that animate dead actually traps the soul or spirit within the corpse, and, in a game-setting where evil souls go to evil planes and empower evil gods (and / or demons, devils, daemons, etc.), it would be absolutely weakening the power of evil to withhold those souls from them, by trapping them in the mortal plane in their old bodies (and, incidentally, forcing them to fight other evil beings). If the GM rules that animate dead traps the soul, then it's one of the 'gooder' things one can do to animate the bodies of fallen evil creatures and deny the evil gods (demons, etc.) their souls.
Burning the bodies of fallen good individuals, to prevent them from being animated, and their souls from being yanked out of whatever upper plane they are headed to, also becomes a necessity.
I don't care for this assumption at all, since it would have every good-aligned church running around and animating the bodies of orcs, gnolls, goblins, etc. to deny Lamashtu, etc. their souls, and that's just a whacky world-concept, to me, where some 3rd level spell can do something that True Ressurection explicitly cannot do, rip someone's soul out of the afterlife without it's consent. But hey, if it's the game assumption, run with it. As long as you're riding a missile at the ground, might as well wave your hat and whoop it up. :)
[How this ruling would interact with a setting where souls can be devoured by demons, evolve into devils, etc. is unclear. Does an attempt to animate dead on the corpse of someone who has clawed their way up the infernal heirarchy to horned devil status pull the devil out of hell and into the body of a 1 HD mindless skeleton? Does the soul of a paladin in mount celestia, dragged back into the 2 HD zombie of his corpse, now explicitly evil, through no fault of his own, lose his paladin status after the zombie is destroyed and his soul then end up in hell, because he's spent all that time being evil and didn't get an atonement? Eh. Angels moshing on pinheads.]
3) Consider researching a variation on Animate Dead that uses the caster's life-energy to animate unliving matter. He doesn't call up negative energy, but splits apart some of his own life-energy and infuses it into the bodies to animated, costing him hit points. It might take only a spark of energy to get the body up and moving as a skeleton or zombie, a single hit point per HD, for instance, and if those 'undead' are destroyed, his lent life-force flies back to his body, if he's within a certain range, say 30 ft. (So if he sents six 2 HD zombies off on a long journey to deliver some loot back home, and they fall off a cliff, that's twelve hit points he'll only get back through rest or magical healing, but if they are in front of him when the dragon breathes, he'll get those twelve hit points back at the end of the round, if *he* survived the dragon's breath...)
4) From the idea upthread, he might call up only a spirit that *wants* to have a chance at redemption, and his skeleton/zombie (only one per casting, in this variation) would be almost as intelligent as it was in life (just as the body is degraded and functions only as a skeleton or zombie, the Int and Cha would likely be -2 or so). It would have it's in-life alignment, and would retain free-will, with the only 'control' the caster has being the ability to end the spell as a Standard Action, causing it to return screaming to hell if it doesn't make a good faith attempt to atone for it's misdeeds with this second chance.
The old 2nd Edition Complete Necromancer's handbook might be some help in this instance. The book does give some insight into "White" Necromancers. There was even a old kit that fit the bill called the Anatomist.
In regards to Animate Dead there can be a couple exceptions.
-If you ask and get permission to animate someones remains.
-Or if say you are a cleric of the faith raising the remains of other faithful to defend the faith.
There was a spell, Bone Dance that does not use negitive energy.
It does not last as long.
Thank you all for your advice.
I have been talking to my would be necromancer and he has informed me that Sarenrae's hatred of the undead was part of the reason for picking her. He want's to channel positive energy so that he also has significant power to destroy undead as his character views undead used for evil purposes are as vile an abomination as any other follower of Sarenrae.
He has gradually come to the conclusion that there is something to be learned from his enemies. Just as evil necromancers will use raise undead to turn his fallen enemies into dark, mindless perversions of their former self, so will he attempt the same type of perversion, only towards the opposite goal.
He explained to me that he too believes this genuinely good natured idea is flawed but wants it to be the result of his character's mild mental instability, which he intends to play up.
After talking to him again I am willing to let him play his character the way he wants, however I am taking FallofCamelot's wonderful idea and dictating that his powers will actually be granted by Norgorber in an attempt to drag him further and further from the righteousness he desires. Not only will this be an immense amount of fun when he finds out, I believe that it fits thematically very well also.
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I am having difficulty in a similar vein. In PFS, I play a Bone Oracle, essentially modeled on the concept of a "white necromancer", or at least a non-evil necromancer.
I play him as an Osirion faction, True Neutral aligned. He worships ancestors, but views the corporeal bodies they leave behind as little more than a husk...as such, the bodies he animates are little more than an extension of his will. He is able to channel his will into them because of his innate understanding of death.
Some people have expressed serious problems with this character, so I have thought about just multi-classing into a Summoner, to essentially "call up" my ancestor-spirit in the form of an Eidolon, since everyone seems to freak out by me suggesting that the 8HD zombie I called into being are my ancestors helping me out.
Plus, the whole NPC thing, you can only pass off a zombie in a large cloak as "my leprous servant Bartholomew" so many times before people start to wonder.
I like the character, and I don't believe that the spell should just be innately "EVIL". It is what it is, though, and thus the fun of the characters.
I played a LN cleric of the dark six in Eberron who marveled at death and the undead. He had death and destruction as domains and carried around a lacquered box full of onyx stones.
When he healed people, he wasn't in his mind granting life energy, but staving off death. He would ask "death" for a reprieve, in a sense. The party he ran with was leary of him at first, but came to trust that he had their best interests in mind, or at the very least the success of the party as a team.
When around 4th level we had bested an ogre, the party camped, and he got to work. Next morning, there was a bone white ogre skeleton, with a longsword and +1 chainshirt we'd looted, standing guard over the camp.
He named him H'tead...put a cloak on him and he followed everywhere. Luckily we had no paladin or other clerics to get all pissy about this, but he contributed well.
So, I guess my point is you can play a necro that doesn't want to burn the world and make everyone a minion :)
Gentle Repose. You might also look into craft taxidermy.
In osirion there is some talk of using elementals to animate the dead. But I think these may more or less be animated objects.
You can have Necros that use their knowlege to keep undead at bay, think Van Helsing.
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I am all for thowing out the Undead are evil concept. There is way to much that just doesn't work rationally with this, and it is a pretty cool idea. Try it and see how it works.
Agreed. I'm okay with the actual state of undeath being an unnatural "perversion of the natural order" thing that still sets off detect evil with its background radiation, but there are far too many concepts of good or noble/loyal neutral "eternal guardian" types(sup mummies) to simply write them off by saying "it's undead, it's evil".
That said, my ideal for a good necromancer would probably look nothing like a standard necromancer wizard or cleric really. I'd prefer something that took it back to the root of the word, those who deal and/or speak with the dead. "True" necromancers so to speak. Folks that could actually be dedicated to Pharasma even.
Like say, they divide the undead up into to general categories. The Restless dead(ghosts, revenants, and the like along with any number of ambiguously defined spirits) and the hungry dead(shadows, vampires, etc.) for starters. These necromancers would be dedicated to moving all of these undead souls out of the unnatural state and on to the next world.
With the restless, they help them square whatever is holding them back. They excel at actually negotiating with these types of undead, and in fact making pacts with them is the greatest source of their power. With each binding pact(I'm imagining something between the likes of a paladin's code and the fluff of the binder class) the necromancer is bound to pursue the goals that will put the dead to true rest. Maybe the temporary perks they get out of this could come in the form of summoning lesser forms of undead, temporary manifestations of the spirits he has bound himself to, or is granted strengths or abilities related to the nature of the spirit being helped.
With the hungry, they put them to rest via force, be it merciful or merciless in delivery.
Sounds like a decent idea and certainly no reason not to let it roll. One tip though, keep an eye out for the priests of Pharasma. No matter how good your intentions are they prefer that the dead stay that way.
I would let him do it. Just remind him that not everyone will in the game world will agree with him. It should lead to some interesting scenarios.
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With the restless, they help them square whatever is holding them back. They excel at actually negotiating with these types of undead, and in fact making pacts with them is the greatest source of their power. With each binding pact(I'm imagining something between the likes of a paladin's code and the fluff of the binder class) the necromancer is bound to pursue the goals that will put the dead to true rest. Maybe the temporary perks they get out of this could come in the form of summoning lesser forms of undead, temporary manifestations of the spirits he has bound himself to, or is granted strengths or abilities related to the nature of the spirit being helped.
With the hungry, they put them to rest via force, be it merciful or merciless in delivery.
That's hot. The Scarred Lands setting had a Paladin Prestige Class (go figure!) native to Hollowfaust, a city built on the ashes of an older city that was slain en masse when the volcano above them erupted (fantasy Pompei, pretty much) and so was *teeming* with the ghosts of the suddenly slain, each with their own agendas and unfulfilled goals and needs. The Paladin sought them out and put them to rest by helping them find peace and resolve their outstanding issues (within reason. If one wanted revenge or something similarly unacceptable to the Paladin's code, out came the smite-age), and had some quasi-necromantic abilities as a result, such as the ability to perceive and communicate with these restless dead, and some spiritual blessings as a gift from those spirits he did help to find peace and pass on.
There was also a 'Voice of Sumara' Sorcerer PrC devoted to channeling the ancient wisdom of the dead of this lost city, with abilities related to channeling various skills (by consulting with a spirit with said skill), etc.
In that vein, a character devoted to putting non-evil undead to rest without violence or hatred or fanatical righteous indignation would be very cool, and could just as quickly turn to appropriate righteous fury and violent 'exorcism by holy avenger' when dealing with a ghost whose reason for staying was wicked, such as lust for his treasure that he couldn't bear leaving behind, or a thirst for vengeance against someone (or, at this point, their descendents) that was never satisfied in life.
There's also the potential for the Speaker for the Dead who consults his own tribal ancestral spirits, calling upon their wisdom (and blessings, and sometimes harsh rebukage) for the benefit of his tribe. Such a character would fill the role of Shaman, more than 'Necromancer,' but would use necromantic spells to commune with and channel the spirits of the tribal ancestors, so that they can guide and watch over their descendents (or set them straight, when they stray from traditionally approved behaviors!).
And, of course, the manipulator of the energies of life and death who focuses on her own life-energy, using her own 'positive energy' to animate unliving matter temporarily, or sending her own spirit out of her body to scout out an area, like a more dangerous form of clairvoyance (but much more limited than astral projection, since she's not leaving the material world). By channeling her own spirit into an ally, she could lend her strength to theirs, 'buffing' them. By attacking their spirit with her own, she could paralyze another, or even possess them, if her own magically-enhanced and experienced spiritual self can subdue the spirit of an unprepared foe. Using necromancy, such a character could emulate the effects of animate object (at a cost to her own life-energies), clairvoyance (at the risk of her unbound spirit being endangered by a similar bodiless creature, such as an actual undead), bull's strength or bear's endurance (sending her own life energies into another, to enhance their strength or ward them from harm) or dominate person (although she would be paralyzing herself to perform this function, as her own spirit has to travel out and possess the target).
There's a ton of third party necromantic stuff out there, some of it really cool, but, IMO, too much of it has 'NPC-only' stamped all over it. The potential for shamanic 'necromancy', consulting with and channeling spirits that *want* to be consulted with and channeled (and aren't evil), is mostly ignored.
There's no reason why necromancy only allows one to talk to *bad people.* Some dead people have to remain good, or else the upper planes would be a ghost town (in a purely figurative sense, since there'd be no 'ghosts' in their 'towns').
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I am starting a new campaign this week and one of my players had the rather unique idea of playing a neutral cleric of Sarenrea who uses Animate Dead and nercomancy in an attempt to "redeem" evil creatures by allowing them to serve a greater purpose after their death.
Personally I love this idea for it's flavor potential, the only problem is that worshipping a good aligned deity prevents him from even using raise dead at all. Not to mention that he can't take Command Undead if he wants to channel positive energy.
I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how I can allow him to play the character he desires? Should I simply house rule him as an exception to the spell alignment rules and say he has come to some sort of arrangement with his deity? Is it viable to use undead without having Command Undead? Or should we simply sit down and make an entirely new character idea that is less of a headache to implement?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Lebris mortis, true necromancer
States that nutral but not good necromancers do exsist with the justification that"giving things life after death is not necessarily evil" more indepth the complete mage states under the necro master "when others object to your use of dead, show them how helpful and safe they can be" and is using a dead body really an evil act? People in other countries adorn their homes with the bones of ancestors... no really
The DC comics Specter uses the power of the restless to get their closure. A Death Spirit is a greater skeleton with a scythe who's sole purpose is to round up other undead and send them to the outer planes. Some undead are truly clueless. They don't know the "party's" over and they overstayed their welcome.
I have to second the Juju Mystery- Good-aligned Juju zombies for the win!
