Intensified Spell + Shocking Grasp


Round 3: Revised Magus Discussion


Intensified spell adds one level to the spell in return for increasing it's max damage by five level effects. While this doesn't mean much to full casters it allows a 10th level magus to spend a second level spell slot to prepare a 10d6 shocking grasp. That's going to result is some prett hefty damage with spellstrike.


The Forgotten wrote:
Intensified spell adds one level to the spell in return for increasing it's max damage by five level effects. While this doesn't mean much to full casters it allows a 10th level magus to spend a second level spell slot to prepare a 10d6 shocking grasp. That's going to result is some prett hefty damage with spellstrike.

But now compare that with the kinds of things other 10th level characters are doing. It's not all that crazy.


Add the magical lineage trait, and Intensified Shocking Grasp is a first level spell. I think that's a pretty nice use of a trait and first level slot!

Stick that in your spellstoring sword and smoke it! Errr....something like that.

@Dire Mongoose: Being able to crit that on 15-20, as it currently stands, is pretty sweet. An opening round nova of spellstored intensified shocking grasp, with a spellstrike intensified shocking grasp, and an enhanced rapier that has all 4 elemental enchantments on is a move and single attack for 25d6+modifiers. Using two first level spells (with aforementioned trait). Add that you have a 30% chance of making that 35d6+double modifiers, and we're talking some serious nova for relatively little cost at a medium level.

@Ravingdork before he arrives: I know you don't think that being able to crit on the weapon range with spellstrike'd spells will stay in the final version. I'm just going with what the developer has stated is legal as of now.


Sylvanite wrote:

@Dire Mongoose: Being able to crit that on 15-20, as it currently stands, is pretty sweet. An opening round nova of spellstored intensified shocking grasp, with a spellstrike intensified shocking grasp, and an enhanced rapier that has all 4 elemental enchantments on is a move and single attack for 25d6+modifiers. Using two first level spells (with aforementioned trait). Add that you have a 30% chance of making that 35d6+double modifiers, and we're talking some serious nova for relatively little cost at a medium level.

I'm definitely not saying that's bad, but...

I'd expect a decently built 10th level barbarian (for example) to be competitive with that in terms of being able to move up and throw damage on an enemy in the opening round.

You're going to need to toss keen on that rapier, too. Improved Critical would take too much BAB at that point.

I will say that with the information we have now and with the touch spells we have available now, Intensify does seem to be a must-have feat for the Magus.

Dark Archive

Dire Mongoose wrote:


I will say that with the information we have now and with the touch spells we have available now, Intensify does seem to be a must-have feat for the Magus.

Agreed, under the caveat that UM will probably have spells that make the feat unnecessary.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sylvanite wrote:
@Ravingdork before he arrives: I know you don't think that being able to crit on the weapon range with spellstrike'd spells will stay in the final version. I'm just going with what the developer has stated is legal as of now.

It warms my heart to know someone was listening. ;P


10d6 from a 2nd level spell.... hummmmm my Draconic sorcerer finds that very interesting.

Lantern Lodge

It's not that impressive. Scorching ray does 12D6 fire damage at level 11 for a 2nd level spell. So, in term of raw damages, the 2 spells are on part. But scorching ray doesn't need the feat and cost 1 arcane pool point to cast at level 11 instead of 2 for an intensified shocking grasp.

Now, I'm not sure you can use Scorching ray with the close range arcana but it wouldn't be over powered.


It's par for the course with what the magus is supposed to do: Beating people with a stick while also beating them with sparkles of pain. A high level magus with close range, spell perfection(Disintegrate) and a bunch of metamagics will do much more... and it still will be far, far from "man this is too much cut it out".

Liberty's Edge

Dire Mongoose wrote:


I'm definitely not saying that's bad, but...

I'd expect a decently built 10th level barbarian (for example) to be competitive with that in terms of being able to move up and throw damage on an enemy in the opening round.

You're going to need to toss keen on that rapier, too. Improved Critical would take too much BAB at that point.

I will say that with the information we have now and with the touch spells we have available now, Intensify does seem to be a must-have feat for the Magus.

Yeah, I don't see a barbarian doing anywhere near that much at level 10.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Synapse wrote:
It's par for the course with what the magus is supposed to do: Beating people with a stick while also beating them with sparkles of pain. A high level magus with close range, spell perfection(Disintegrate) and a bunch of metamagics will do much more... and it still will be far, far from "man this is too much cut it out".

The fortitude save aspect of disintegrate keeps that from being an uber combo though, as all the big things with loads of HP will likely save against it, and all the low-Fort things that would normally fail the save don't have enough HP to warrant the combo to begin with.


Yeah. People worry too much about certain combinations... Any spells likely to be "just way too powerful to be used in spell combat" will most likely be broken in their own right.


Gallard Stormeye wrote:
Yeah, I don't see a barbarian doing anywhere near that much at level 10.

Hypothetically, if I were to post a build, what kind of numbers would change your mind?


Dire Mongoose wrote:
Gallard Stormeye wrote:
Yeah, I don't see a barbarian doing anywhere near that much at level 10.
Hypothetically, if I were to post a build, what kind of numbers would change your mind?

I'm guessing yer talking about a pouncer? I still don't see a melee magus being more effective at damage than a pouncing melee barb or fighter....maybe a couple rounds a day but with a lot of expended resources to get there.


Sylvanite wrote:
I'm guessing yer talking about a pouncer? I still don't see a melee magus being more effective at damage than a pouncing melee barb or fighter....maybe a couple rounds a day but with a lot of expended resources to get there.

Yup!

And I agree completely with your conclusions and it seems to me that that's how those things should balance out, so, all is well.

Liberty's Edge

Dire Mongoose wrote:
Gallard Stormeye wrote:
Yeah, I don't see a barbarian doing anywhere near that much at level 10.
Hypothetically, if I were to post a build, what kind of numbers would change your mind?

Sure, amaze me.

Use the same level character - 10
Same number of feats invested - one
Same number of traits - one
Same gold investment - none
Same number of class feature selections - none
Same action expenditure - one standard and one swift

Yes, this also costs the magus 1 arcane point and two level 1 spell slots. That's approximately 1/9th of his arcane points for the day and 2/13 of his spell slots for the day (discounting bonus spell slots). It's really hard to compare this part to barbarians but it's safe to say the magus could do his combo ~8 times per day.

With these limitations the barbarian needs to be close to doing the same damage. Can he do ~24d6 + double melee modifiers using similar resources?

If the barbarian can't do it how about the traditional fighter/wizard/EK?


This is reasonable:

Gallard Stormeye wrote:


Use the same level character - 10

But this:

Gallard Stormeye wrote:


Same number of feats invested - one
Same number of traits - one
Same gold investment - none
Same number of class feature selections - none
Same action expenditure - one standard and one swift

Is what we on the interwebs like to call "blatant trolling."

Somebody else can pick it up if they want, but I'm done with you.

Liberty's Edge

Dire Mongoose wrote:

This is reasonable:

Gallard Stormeye wrote:


Use the same level character - 10

But this:

Gallard Stormeye wrote:


Same number of feats invested - one
Same number of traits - one
Same gold investment - none
Same number of class feature selections - none
Same action expenditure - one standard and one swift

Is what we on the interwebs like to call "blatant trolling."

Somebody else can pick it up if they want, but I'm done with you.

I'm sorry if you feel that way. If you're going to call the barbarian competitive it seems the barbarian should be able to compete with the same level of invested resources. If the barbarian has to dedicate himself 100% to do what the magus can do with 1/6 of his options that hardly seems 'balanced'.


I'll apologize for that last post and take a more constructive stab at this:

I don't think it's remotely reasonable to try to compare anything, balancewise, putting "equal" restrictions on two classes that, really, are not equal. It's not fair to evaluate the number of class features the barbarian needs to match up, any more than it's fair to insist that the magus match the barbarian's damage 100 times a day or without spending any spell slots (since the barbarian doesn't need to expend any spell slots to do his thing.)

Liberty's Edge

Dire Mongoose wrote:

I'll apologize for that last post and take a more constructive stab at this:

I don't think it's remotely reasonable to try to compare anything, balancewise, putting "equal" restrictions on two classes that, really, are not equal. It's not fair to evaluate the number of class features the barbarian needs to match up, any more than it's fair to insist that the magus match the barbarian's damage 100 times a day or without spending any spell slots (since the barbarian doesn't need to expend any spell slots to do his thing.)

You are right to a point and my restrictions were a tad unfair. My point is that it is not balanced if the barbarian needs to commit himself wholly to match what the magus can do with a fraction of his abilities. If every barbarians needs to have a specific set of feats, equipment, and class features to match what the magus can do with just a portion (while leaving himself room to be more versatile) I would not call that balanced.

For the barbarian to do 'his thing' he does expend some form of class resource - rage rounds. In this theory-crafted snapshot the barbarian has to spend one rounds worth of his ~24+ rounds.

Also, as I said I was being a bit unfair. At this level the magus has three arcana slots to work with versus the barbarian's five. As such the barbarian should be able to spend two of those rage power slots in his quest to stay competitive.


Trying to beat a caster on single round damage is generally a loosing game. A great sword barbarian with a shocking frost weapon can easily do 4d6 +22 on a power attack while raging. (Assuming 18 str +4 rage +4 str booster). Unlike the Magus the Barbarian can do that on every hit.

The Exchange

As opposed to the Magus that can do a hasted full attack and then do an i scorching ray for 3d6+30 weapon damage(assuming 14 str,+3 weapon+power attack, 3 attacks)+12d6 scorching ray for 5 rounds + any pearls(how many pearl 2s can a 10th level caster have?)

Granted the Magus will run out eventually. But they essentially get quicken spell for no spell adjustment at level 1, at-will. Quicken costs +4 spell levels for every other caster. Why does the Magus get to do it for free?


Daxter wrote:

As opposed to the Magus that can do a hasted full attack and then do an i scorching ray for 3d6+30 weapon damage(assuming 14 str,+3 weapon+power attack, 3 attacks)+12d6 scorching ray for 5 rounds + any pearls(how many pearl 2s can a 10th level caster have?)

Granted the Magus will run out eventually. But they essentially get quicken spell for no spell adjustment at level 1, at-will. Quicken costs +4 spell levels for every other caster. Why does the Magus get to do it for free?

Because the other benefits of quickened spells aren't there. Namely, attacks of opportunity. They also can't use any optimal weapon choice with it. They have less spells to burn than full casters. Oh, did I mention that single class feature is HALF of the class features available?

Don't give the feature a value it doesn't have. Yes, being able to cast and attack in the same round is amazing. No, it isn't broken.

The Exchange

Synapse wrote:
Daxter wrote:

As opposed to the Magus that can do a hasted full attack and then do an i scorching ray for 3d6+30 weapon damage(assuming 14 str,+3 weapon+power attack, 3 attacks)+12d6 scorching ray for 5 rounds + any pearls(how many pearl 2s can a 10th level caster have?)

Granted the Magus will run out eventually. But they essentially get quicken spell for no spell adjustment at level 1, at-will. Quicken costs +4 spell levels for every other caster. Why does the Magus get to do it for free?

Because the other benefits of quickened spells aren't there. Namely, attacks of opportunity. They also can't use any optimal weapon choice with it. They have less spells to burn than full casters. Oh, did I mention that single class feature is HALF of the class features available?

Don't give the feature a value it doesn't have. Yes, being able to cast and attack in the same round is amazing. No, it isn't broken.

A Magus can cast defensively just like any other caster. In fact they can bump their concentration check by sacrificing their attack bonus if they really need to cast that spell. A rapier/scimitar isnt optimal? A longsword isnt optimal? They aren't elven curved blades, but still good weapons. Did I forget to mention the Falcata is usable by a Magus for spell combat? True, they have less spells to burn, until you realize a Magus can eventually use their pool to get more spells. The free quicken feature doesnt even take a swift action, so later the Magus can quicken spells and do spell combat. So full attack + 2 quicken scorching rays every round for as many spells slots as he is willing to burn? Does that sound reasonable?


Considering its the only thing they can do, and normal casters can burn 2 spells per round just the same...yeah, it's very reasonable. Think of this this way instead...

A wizard gets to cast 1 high and 1 medium level spells per round if he's burning away.
A magus can cast 1 medium and 1 low level spells per round if he's burning away, plus beat you with a stick.

The wizard will still turn the magus into a red smear on the ground...

The Exchange

Normal casters can't do a full attack in the same round that they cast those 2 spells, and even if they did, its not as good as a Magus full attack. And also, a normal gish(which is what the Magus is supposed to be) has to choose between casting a spell or making melee attack on his turn until the mid teens. A Magus can do both at level 1.

On another note. I want to see someone post a build for a barbarian that out damages a Magus of the same level, like Gallard asked for


Effing post eaten.....ugh. GET A NEW MESSAGEBOARD SYSTEM.

Anyhow, I put together a tenth level gish-archer that did a reliable 80-100 damage per round, just for comparison.

Sure it's not a melee caster like the Magus, but I bet it survives a heck of a lot better while doing comparable damage to a Magus's nova....pretty much all day. More versatility out of combat as well due to Wizard spell list.


Daxter wrote:
Normal casters can't do a full attack in the same round that they cast those 2 spells, and even if they did, its not as good as a Magus full attack.

Yes, that's what I said, and I'm saying that is not any more powerful than anything full casters typically do.


Ok I´ll try, but you have to decide for yourself how many rounds of combat you compair the two, everything under 3 favors the Magus.

used http://www.trovetokens.com/pathfinder.html

Barbarian - "Smash"

Barbarian wrote:

Smash
Male Human Barbarian 1 | [Chaotic Neutral]

Hit Points
HP 15
Current HP

Strength1 8 (+4)

Dexterity
12 (+1)
Constitution
14 (+2)
Intelligence
10 (+0)
Wisdom
10 (+0)
Charisma
8 (-1)

Initiative +1 = +1 [Dex]
Action Points (Lifetime) 5
Skills
SKILL Total + Ability Mod. + Ranks + Misc.
Acrobatics* +5 = DEX 1+1+3
Appraise +0 = INT 0+0+0
Bluff -1 = CHA -1+0+0
Climb* +4 = STR 4+0+0
Craft +0 = INT 0+0+0
Craft +0 = INT 0+0+0
Craft +0 = INT 0+0+0
Diplomacy -1 = CHA -1+0+0
Disable Device*† +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Disguise -1 = CHA -1+0+0
Escape Artist* +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Fly* +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Handle Animal† -1 = CHA -1+0+0
Heal +0 = WIS 0+0+0
Intimidate +3 = CHA -1+1+3
K (Arcana)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (Dungeoneering)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (Engineering)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (Geography)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (History)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (Local)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (Nature)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (Nobility)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (Planes)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
K (Religion)† +0 = INT 0+0+0
Linguistics† +0 = INT 0+0+0
Perception +4 = WIS 0+1+3
Perform -1 = CHA -1+0+0
Perform -1 = CHA -1+0+0
Profession† +0 = WIS 0+0+0
Profession† +0 = WIS 0+0+0
Ride +5 = DEX 1+1+3
Sense Motive +0 = WIS 0+0+0
Sleight of Hand*† +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Spellcraft† +0 = INT 0+0+0
Stealth* +1 = DEX 1+0+0
Survival +4 = WIS 0+1+3
Swim* +4 = STR 4+0+0
Use Magic Device† -1 = CHA -1+0+0

* Armor Check Penalty 0
† Trained Only

Equipment

Notes

Base Speed [ 40 (8 sq.) ] = 30 [Base] + 10 [Fast Movement]

AC [13] = 10 + 2 [Leather] + 1 [Dex]
Touch AC [11] Flat-Footed [12]

Base Attack Bonus +1
Basic Melee Attack +5
Basic Ranged Attack +2

Weapon

Attack Bonus

Critical
Greatsword Masterwork +7 x2
19–20 2d6+6
Type

Range

Ammo

Damage

Fortitude Save +4 = 2 [base] +2 [Con]
Reflex Save +1 = 0 [base] +1 [Dex]
Will Save +0 = 0 [base] +0 [Wis]

CMB +5 = 1 [BAB] +4 [Str] +0 [size]
CMD +16 = 1 [BAB] +4 [Str] +1 [Dex] +0 [size] + 10
Feats
Power Attack
Weapon Focus

Traits
Heirloom Weapon
Carrying Capacity
Light Load: 100lbs.
Medium Load: 200lbs.
Heavy Load: 300lbs.
Lift Over Head: 300lbs.
Lift Off Ground: 600lbs.
Push or Drag: 1,500lbs.
Languages
Common

Special Abilities
Human
Bonus Feat: One extra feat at 1st level
Skilled: +1 skill rank per level
Bonus Languages: Any (except secret languages)

Barbarian
Fast Movement
Rage

Magus

Magus wrote:

Strength
16 (+3)
Hit Points
HP 10
Current HP

Dexterity
10 (+0)
Constitution
12 (+1)
Intelligence
16 (+3)
Wisdom
10 (+0)
Charisma
8 (-1)

Initiative +0 = +0 [Dex]

Equipment

Notes

Base Speed [ 30 (6 sq.) ]

AC [12] = 10 + 2 [Leather]
Touch AC [10] Flat-Footed [12]

Weapon

Attack Bonus

Critical
Longsword Masterwork +4 x2
19–20 1d8+2

Feats
Combat Casting

Intensified Spell

Traits
Heirloom Weapon


Daxter wrote:
On another note. I want to see someone post a build for a barbarian that out damages a Magus of the same level, like Gallard asked for

1) I didn't ever say the barbarian would do more. I just said it would be competitive. If the barbarian throws 100 in an average round and the magus can throw 120 with his x-times-per-day trick... or whatever the real numbers are, it doesn't panic me.

2) I asked him what it would take to satisfy him; he obliged me, but set parameters that I don't find to be remotely fair. I'm choosing to not play that game.


God this is a stupid theory crafting fight. Look the bottom line is that the Magus invests in high damage on a single attack. Once that attack is spent, he's got the damage output of a one handed weapon for the rest of the round, and is lacking the BaB to effectively use power attack. The Barbarian spreads damage among a number of attacks. If the Magus wants to cast haste on the party, the Barbarian is all for it.

If a hasted rogue manages a full attack with a sneak attack, I expect that we'll also see some pretty hideous damage.

Caster classes feel more powerful than non casters because thet have spell candy, not because they are always the most powerful.

Liberty's Edge

Dire Mongoose wrote:


2) I asked him what it would take to satisfy him; he obliged me, but set parameters that I don't find to be remotely fair. I'm choosing to not play that game.

Fair enough. I'd still like to see how close the barbarian can get but if you don't want to do the leg work I'll do it myself sometime.

As it stands though I will be putting a soft ban on the magus for my game. I am well aware that the wizard, druid, cleric, etc is probably more powerful overall but I feel like there is enough cheese out there already that easily invalidates magic-impaired melee combatants. I see no need to add any more.

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