Howdy. I'm looking for some advice on how to add a Pathfinder dragon to my existing party and if memory serves, there were some rules to cover just such a thing but I can't find them. I seem to recall it was something about their challenge rating divided by pi or some such thing. I have the old Dragon magazines that give level conversions but those are limited to playing juveniles for the most part. We have a party sitting at level 14, soon to be 15.
Any help with this is much appreciated. Thanks.
Creature do not scale well with parts due to Racial HD, size, and a number of other factor's. ((Monster were not designed to be PC, from the beginning, and then most DM enforce rules that prevent them in deed or action)).
Best way to do it, by RAW = Make a Sorcerer with Draconic blood line. All 20 levels.
Then talk to your DM, into letting you just have the Form, of a Dragon of that size (small/medium). (Form: The shape of. You do not grow wings until the sorcerer blood line lets you. You have no natural ability's of said form. You only have the ability of the base humanoid race you chose (recommend Dwarf: as it goes well with dragon :).)
Once you are done with the character and want to retire him. (assuming he is still alive). You can then hand him over to the DM, and he can then "Evolve" it into his game as an adult +plus dragon.
This was also done in the old 3.5 books as well. Savage Species? The Draconomicon? Whether or not they were done well, no clue.
This was also done in the old 3.5 books as well. Savage Species? The Draconomicon? Whether or not they were done well, no clue.
Not done well...the power creep in those books really didn't do anything to bring dragons back in line with PCs...in fact, I believe Pun-Pun was born from those books.
It is possible to have a young dragon adventure with the party but he will always be the star of the party, and of all the other dragons. If he starts off at CR7 and he gains 13 levels of fighter...he becomes CR20...when he finishes aging, he is going to have a CR in the high 20s if not 30s. You may not think this is important because he is just "going to retire" at level 20, but this sets the precidence for the rest of your world, I doubt he will be the only dragon to have done this.
So, not only are you making more work for yourself in terms of balancing encounters and trying to make everyone feel useful, but you are also giving yourself a headache in trying to create encounters with "standard" creatures.
Personal Experience with Dragons in the Party:
Now, having said this, I wrote a prestige class for a player who wanted a dragon themed druid. She wanted a dragon as a companion (prolly watched how to train a dragon too many times). To create this, I built it as a cohort that gains one level (fighter or sorcerer only) for every two levels in the prestige class she takes. She also had to lose her animal companion as a pre-req to gain the cohort. So, a young dragon, who is CR 9 in a party of CR12s is actually pretty balanced, where the dragon isn't shining more than the players. If that dragon where CR12 like everyone else, the difficulty of the encountered would have to be increased to such a level that I would fear for the actual PCs. If you would like me to put the building/progression instructions I used up for you, I will.
Use a dragon whose HD are as close to the party's level without going over.
This should be ok. Don't confuse CR with CL! A CR is meant for 4 characters of that level, so adding a CR 14 dragon will overpower and outshine your charcters. HD should be closer though.
Another way. Page 307 Bestiary = Dragon type.
Player starts off Small or medium in size dragon form. Can not fly..does not have wings. (game balance reasons). Claws and bite damage same as a humans for that size (although i would let it be lethal damage from the start).
There are feats, and class ability to improve stuff like natural weapon damage, armor, etc... same as human.
Player 1st level is Dragon Class.... see Type on page 307.
Player at 2nd character level, may then advance as Dragon class as listed on page 307 or as Character class; player chooses at each level.
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Another way. Page 307 Bestiary = Dragon type.
Player starts off Small or medium in size dragon form. Can not fly..does not have wings. (game balance reasons). Claws and bite damage same as a humans for that size (although i would let it be lethal damage from the start).
There are feats, and class ability to improve stuff like natural weapon damage, armor, etc... same as human.
Player 1st level is Dragon Class.... see Type on page 307.
Player at 2nd character level, may then advance as Dragon class as listed on page 307 or as Character class; player chooses at each level.
Yes, but... On its own that's a weak class.
It's missing class features.
Those are dragons special powers (breath weapon, immunities, spells).
If you can add those at the appropriate level then you should be able to produce a balanced dragon.
I would suggest starting at tiny, becoming small at level 4, medium at level 8, large at 14, huge at 18... keep comparing to dragons at same hitdice-1.
Could it be this Book: Dragonomicon
If you look on page 141 it has a section on Dragons as PC's, there is also a section on dragon cohorts, dragons as mounts, and dragons as familiars.
Very good book on dragons and roleplaying.
I know this is old but their is a new dragon pc race http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/rite-publishing/dragon-tanini m
You can do that with Rite Publishing In the Company of Dragons
You can do that with Rite Publishing In the Company of Dragons
*cough* that is linked in my links *cough*
I guess I like things more plainly stated... try some cough medicine ;)
Advancing a dragon usually means coming up with a baseline size, then adding class levels to it.
Best choice is sorcerer, since its racial spell casting stacks with it.
You also adjust its ability scores, +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2 to match its class choice.
Be careful not to give it too many racial HD as they might be too strong.
Advancing a dragon usually means coming up with a baseline size, then adding class levels to it.
Best choice is sorcerer, since its racial spell casting stacks with it.
You also adjust its ability scores, +4/+4/+2/+2/+0/-2 to match its class choice.
Be careful not to give it too many racial HD as they might be too strong.
the taninim is actually really good now that i relize the nuances of the race, such as, DO NOT PICK THE RACIAL CLASS, USE FEATS TO GET THE FEATURES THOUGH THE RACIAL FEATS.
for melee a barbarian was much more appealing than what i would have gotten from the racial class. it's archetype and the feats to get a human form through extra gift(or what ever it really is called) make things really good. rage powers on a dragon are pretty devastating.
all the racial archetypes stack with all the draconic hero archetypes, and fighter with racial feats is pretty damn good too.
sorcerer is great if you plan to cast more, you strength should end up being good regardless of what you start it out as, making them great bad touch PCs.
Why not play as a Wyvaran?
Play a Koblod and use a scroll of Polymorph Any Object to turn him into a dragon.