Let me also reiterate what Gary & Ross said. We can only judge behavior on what people post *here*, not anywhere else. Every time we have to go and clean up antagonistic, inflammatory and spiteful posts is time that we can't spend making Paizo more awesome. (It sounds cheesy, but it's true.)
Also, gaming is a very (very) subjective hobby, and I'd like to remind everyone again that one person's version of what is fun for them may not be the same for somebody else. There's a difference between saying "I think the way you do X sucks" and "I don't like X because it hasn't worked for me because" .
Now, go to the Sultan gaming table over there. There's fresh warm cookies and cold milk and shiny new copies of [Latest Product Here] and a new battle mat all set up for play. :P
Cheese cookies?
No! Beautiful chocolate chip oatmeal!
Your cheese cookies are full of fail! ;-)
PS. I think I love Lilith!
A timeout corner with milk and cookies? Hmm...What you should set up is every time someone’s post has been flagged the offender should get an email saying.
Your post was flagged; here is a cookie to make you feel better.
Who can post another antagonistic post after getting a cookie, I know I couldn't. If I got a cookie after getting a flag cookie, I could not continue my rant... ;)
That's a great idea! That way, whenever I'm hungry, I just have to insult someone or their favourite game and I get free food! ;-P
(Whatever. Didn't read, didn't care)
Dear Ask a Succubus: Would you consider coming with me and... ?
nom nom nom
Given these delicious cookies, I would like to apologize for the tenor of my last post. In the delightful afterglow of chocolate chip oatmeal cookie consumption even Mairkurion's cheese cookies look acceptable -- as long as he eats them and I don't.
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Also, gaming is a very (very) subjective hobby, and I'd like to remind everyone again that one person's version of what is fun for them may not be the same for somebody else. There's a difference between saying "I think the way you do X sucks" and "I don't like X because it hasn't worked for me because" .
I couldn't agree more, Lil, that's what I was getting at - although probably not doing too well with - in my post (second in this thread). The problem is that some topics trend more toward "right vs. wrong" than they do "my way vs. your way". I think it's just a natural outgrowth of the fact that we're all basically here because of our mutual pursuit of a common understanding of a fairly complex game system. When we're trying to arrive at the "right" answer, answers that aren't the "right" one become the "wrong" one, sort of by default. This is why "Do you prefer Halflings or Kender" isn't as divisive a topic as, say, "Is Shadowdancer HiPS negated by darkvision"; one is an opinion question while one seeks a common understanding - a "right" answer.
As I said earlier, I don't pretend to know how to fix that problem, or if it can even be fixed - I'd posit that it can't, really, and that people who aren't up for a good arguement should, as Gary and Ross have suggested, flee the scene when one erupts.
*eats cookie*
As I said earlier, I don't pretend to know how to fix that problem, or if it can even be fixed - I'd posit that it can't, really, and that people who aren't up for a good arguement should, as Gary and Ross have suggested, flee the scene when one erupts.
*eats cookie*
But it is so seldom a good argument. It is usually mere contradiction served with a heaping side of abuse.
I would stick around for a good argument.
A lot of people have been infected by internet culture. It is "cool" to attack those who offer any statement contrary to the accepted norm. My first thread here I made a discussion about my ranking of the core classes and I got little more than vitriol and hostility for it. Not even for the opinions or rankings, but that I had the nerve to make such a thread.
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As I said earlier, I don't pretend to know how to fix that problem, or if it can even be fixed - I'd posit that it can't, really, and that people who aren't up for a good arguement should, as Gary and Ross have suggested, flee the scene when one erupts.
*eats cookie*
But it is so seldom a good argument. It is usually mere contradiction served with a heaping side of abuse.
I would stick around for a good argument.
I agree 100%. I flee arguments these days. Didn't always, as my post history will suggest, but I've (mostly) learned.
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One trick is to separate out 'me' from 'my ideas,' if you can do that, it becomes more easy to accept that someone saying that your ideas are wrong is not saying anything about you, just something about your ideas.
Yeah. 'Your game / playstyle is badwrongfun' is going to bug people. 'I tried that, and I found it kinda boring.' would be a far more useful way to express a personal lack of enjoyment with a certain style / game / class / role.
Same with the 'Rogues suck' or 'Monks suck' threads. If someone said, 'I played a monk, and I just couldn't keep up with anyone, at pretty much anything other than running fast. Am I doing something wrong, or is this class just not for me?' would be a more practical way to phrase one's dissatisfaction with a particular class, if one actually wanted advice on how to make it more fun for them (whether by tweaking some rules, or by finding the niche where the monk *doesn't* suck), and isn't just trolling for an argument...
Obviously that runs the risk of an overly long thread title, but it isn't hard to shorthand that. 'My monk sucked, help!' is going to get more useful replies than 'Monks still suck, WTF!' which is just going to provoke replies from people who don't think Monks suck, or don't think Monks ever sucked, or who are going to reply that the monk is fine, and that you suck, which is hardly the sort of reply anyone not spoiling for a good flamewar is going to have much use for.
I think that about 90% of the edition wars came from poorly phrased comments, or deliberately antagonistic comments that got personal, and instead of being about systems, rules or changes, where about what was 'wrong' with people who liked the other system.
I actually like some of the Den stuff. Their guides, particularly K's guides, are fun reads, even if the language is a bit Fear and Loathing-esque at times.
I'm just gonna put out the requisite:
"Don't feed the trolls."
I actually think what I have read lately has been less antagonistic than usual, but I've also learned to just not read certain subjects.
But if someone is clearly being a jerk, it means they are BAITING for replies. If people don't take the bait, they go fish somewhere else. It's like the 3 year old who throws tantrums---it's the only way they know how to get attention, and if you provide them the attention, then it reinforces their behavior and they keep doing it.
The only way to get them to stop is to
1. Ignore the jerkishness. Completely.
2. Flag inappropriate posts.
3. Respond to them positively when they are being well-behaved and reinforce their good behavior.
4. When you do respond to them at any time, be as civil as possible. Be DRIPPING with politeness. Make Miss Manners proud of you.
This applies equally to board trolls and toddlers (except #2 in the toddler's case is "talk to the parents"). The difference is that toddlers are far more likely to learn to behave themselves than board trolls, but then that's where "just flag and ignore" becomes the rule of thumb.
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Here, here! Now I mostly just *lurk* in the rules forum.
I agree 100%. I flee arguments these days. Didn't always, as my post history will suggest, but I've (mostly) learned.
I'm simply not strong enough to reply to the trolls without calling out their bullshit and poor assumptions, so I just don't reply...
I'm just gonna put out the requisite:
"Don't feed the trolls."
I actually think what I have read lately has been less antagonistic than usual, but I've also learned to just not read certain subjects.
But if someone is clearly being a jerk, it means they are BAITING for replies. If people don't take the bait, they go fish somewhere else. It's like the 3 year old who throws tantrums---it's the only way they know how to get attention, and if you provide them the attention, then it reinforces their behavior and they keep doing it.
The only way to get them to stop is to
1. Ignore the jerkishness. Completely.
2. Flag inappropriate posts.
3. Respond to them positively when they are being well-behaved and reinforce their good behavior.
4. When you do respond to them at any time, be as civil as possible. Be DRIPPING with politeness. Make Miss Manners proud of you.This applies equally to board trolls and toddlers (except #2 in the toddler's case is "talk to the parents"). The difference is that toddlers are far more likely to learn to behave themselves than board trolls, but then that's where "just flag and ignore" becomes the rule of thumb.
This is FANTASTIC advice. Thanks for sharing, DQ.
Why are you all attacking me?!?!?!?!??!!
;)
>spinkles troll flakes on post< What? They'll starve...If the post trolls starve it's on you guys.
>Ignites troll flakes< They like em warm...what?
Mr. Fishy provides a service.
And the peanut gallery says...
I'm happiest when this place is about sharing and learning stuff about the game.
I'm least happy when it is about proving intellectual superiority. Those kinds of posters make me briefly consider logging off and doing something constructive with my time.
I'm happiest when this place is about sharing and learning stuff about the game.
I'm least happy when it is about proving intellectual superiority. Those kinds of posters make me briefly consider logging off and doing something constructive with my time.
I have felt that way too, sometimes. I'd get stressed out about it and occasionally lose my temper. Then I sort of put it perspective of why I was actually here. Was I here for lively political discussion, or was I here to talk about the Pathfinder RPG?
That being said, I still do take a deep breath when foraging in the Rules Boards. But that helps, knowing what to expect and using the good stuff as a resource and just setting the other stuff aside.
It's the internet...so you are going to find poeple who can't handle themselves in public. Like that horse guy or any poodle.
Daaaaaamn... My Erinyes chick would never do that...Dear Ask a Succubus: Would you consider coming with me and... ?(Whatever. Didn't read, didn't care)
That's why demons will always win.
HAH! You don't have an Erinyes "chick" -- go back to powdering your wig, you pesky Taldorian dandy! ;PDaaaaaamn... My Erinyes chick would never do that...Dear Ask a Succubus: Would you consider coming with me and... ?(Whatever. Didn't read, didn't care)
Those bigwigs. As much as I hate your guts for being a devil worshipper, I can't help but agree to everything negative you have to say about Taldanes.
And to thing that both our nations were once part of their empire. Just goes to show how much things can change!
A lot of people have been infected by internet culture. It is "cool" to attack those who offer any statement contrary to the accepted norm.
Or just anyone. The phenomenon is called "online balls". People feel brave because the other person is not only far away, but doesn't know who you really are.
One of the things on my to-do list for when I win the lottery is find out the identity and location of, say, one person per month who has been a jerk because it's the internet, and then send thugs to beat him up, telling him why he'll need crutches and a straw for his soup the next 12 months or so: Because he was a prick! ;-)
That's why demons will always win.
do demons make the paizo messageboards more kaeyotic?
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I'm happiest when this place is about sharing and learning stuff about the game.
I'm least happy when it is about proving intellectual superiority. Those kinds of posters make me briefly consider logging off and doing something constructive with my time.
You got a problem with my superior intelligence, mister president? Well, can't help you with that. But I've got to hand it to you -- you *ARE* the most evil, most antagonist president ever! ;P
I know full well that I can be a Jack@ss, but thats what makes me so lovable :D
But overall the boards are a little less volatile then when the alpha/beta playtest was going on. Back then name calling, insulting ones level of education, or questioning ones parentage where common place. Personally I've learned to just let things slide, although I slip-up every now and again. I guess I just feel passionate about the game.
What is Evil Lincoln president of? Avatars with Cool Hats?
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HAH! You don't have an Erinyes "chick" -- go back to powdering your wig, you pesky Taldorian dandy! ;PDaaaaaamn... My Erinyes chick would never do that...Dear Ask a Succubus: Would you consider coming with me and... ?(Whatever. Didn't read, didn't care)
Those bigwigs. As much as I hate your guts for being a devil worshipper, I can't help but agree to everything negative you have to say about Taldanes.
And to thing that both our nations were once part of their empire. Just goes to show how much things can change!
Well, well ... isn't it my archnemesis, the Antagonist of Antagonists, Blackguard of Blackguards... KaeYoss the Turncoat! He whom I loved and respected as a brother, and who so callously broke my (black and twisted) heart! *snif*
Little Tim, daddy needs a hanky!
That's why demons will always win.do demons make the paizo messageboards more kaeyotic?
No, that's all me - with the help of my Protean allies.
My work isn't done as long as causality still holds these boards in its logical grip!
Well, well ... isn't it my archnemesis, the Antagonist of Antagonists, Blackguard of Blackguards... KaeYoss the Turncoat! He whom I loved and respected as a brother, and who so callously broke my (black and twisted) heart! *snif*
Little Tim, daddy needs a hanky!
Awwww! I broke your heart. I bet the devil you sold it to complained about the defective merchandise, yes?
Little Tim, daddy needs a hanky!
Are you my daddy?
Little Tim! Who polymorphed you from pit fiend into a human child?!? Wait... now I know.. didn't I *tell* you not to trust that nasty, evil man -- KaeYoss!Are you my daddy?
Little Tim, daddy needs a hanky!
He said if I failed my saving throw on purpose, he'd give me a puppy!
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He said if I failed my saving throw on purpose, he'd give me a puppy!Little Tim! Who polymorphed you from pit fiend into a human child?!? Wait... now I know.. didn't I *tell* you not to trust that nasty, evil man -- KaeYoss!Are you my daddy?
Little Tim, daddy needs a hanky!
I told you he'd say something like that, didn't I? My poor, little Timmy... you're too gullible and sweet for an adolescent pit fiend! I knew I should have been more harsh and cruel in your upbringing; less dancing and gifts, and more lessons in torture and being an evil-aligned fiend... *sigh*
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He got what he deserved.Little Tim! Who polymorphed you from pit fiend into a human child?!? Wait... now I know.. didn't I *tell* you not to trust that nasty, evil man -- KaeYoss!Are you my daddy?
Little Tim, daddy needs a hanky!
No, he didn't; it's all my fault -- I've been too kind and loving to him as a father...
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No, he didn't; it's all my fault -- I've been too kind and loving to him as a father...He got what he deserved.Little Tim! Who polymorphed you from pit fiend into a human child?!? Wait... now I know.. didn't I *tell* you not to trust that nasty, evil man -- KaeYoss!Are you my daddy?
Little Tim, daddy needs a hanky!
Oh yes he did, stupid devils, barely smarter than the hairless and bearded monkeys they try and lord over. :)
Oh yes he did, stupid devils, barely smarter than the hairless and bearded monkeys they try and lord over. :)No, he didn't; it's all my fault -- I've been too kind and loving to him as a father...He got what he deserved.Little Tim! Who polymorphed you from pit fiend into a human child?!? Wait... now I know.. didn't I *tell* you not to trust that nasty, evil man -- KaeYoss!Are you my daddy?
Little Tim, daddy needs a hanky!
True! I did give him that puppy.
It was disgusting how he was shackled to his nature when he clearly wanted to be a nice kid, so I helped him. And gave him a puppy. And a holy avenger of devil slaying. I told him it's fun to play with devils with that sword.
Hee-hee! Mr. Jingle Bells talks funny. But new daddy smells funny!