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I'm curious about peoples opinions - in a balanced party, would you rather have a witch or a wizard to fill each of the following roles (ie. Witch/Wizard for #1, Witch/Wizard for #2, etc):
1. Damage dealer
2. Buffs
3. Utility
4. General survivability
5. Overall usefulness
I would take a well-played wizard over a witch any day.
Witch actually allows for less bad play because of less options. Like there's no Fireball for a witch play to fling.
"Overall balanced party" isn't enough information to make the call.
Two examples:
Say your party is Bard, Paladin, Cleric, +
Then I would play a Wizard. Having a 4th healer isn't really helping, and the Wizard's increased battlefield control options are going to be needed.
If you're party is Rogue, Fighter, Combat Druid, +
Then I would play the Witch. Adding some healing to that party would be a significant contribution.
My ratings on the two:
Damage: Wizard -- the witch has several nice damage spells -- but they come few and fair between while the wizard has constant access across all levels to a variety of means to deliver HP death to either single targets or multiple -- it's unlikely to happen quickly but he has more options and in this cast options = power.
Buffing: Wizard wins this one too -- depending on what patron you take the witch can come close -- but every wizard has access to haste, heroism, polymorph and a host of defensive buffs the witch is simply lacking. Of all the casters the witch is honestly the weakest buffer -- however at higher level the witch has many more really good buffing options that a wizard simply doesn't have access too.
Battlefield control: This one is much more of a toss up. Both have many good choices -- but often are exactly the same. The wizard does have more wall spells
SoS/SoD: Witch wins hands down. While they both have a lot of nasty effects the witch has a couple of extras the wizard doesn't have access too -- add to this the fact the witch can force penalties on to your save and make you reroll and take the worse roll and the witch has a level of success that the wizard can't match easily.
Utility: Witch wins this one too... but not as easily. The witch has more clean up spells (such as remove disease) and many good divination spells. Add to this the healing powers (and spells) of a witch and the wizard simply can't do as much as the witch can on the utility front -- especially since the witch gets teleport and creation spells just as good as the wizard does, and several wonderful spells that the wizard simply never gets.
Survivability: The witch would win by default with the healing spells and sheer number of supernatural abilities... but it lacks several of the best defensive spells at lower levels (invisbility, mirror Image, resist energy, etc). This really hurts the witch, but is something that can be made up with patron choice. The witch's reliance on the familiar could be an issue though depending on GM and play style (and character choices), but the number and quality of spells the witch gets that the wizard doesn't have access to really helps the witch again in this catagory.
Over all usefulness: complete toss up -- the witch will likely always have something that will be very useful to do -- either knocking an opponent out, causing them to reroll all the time or giving them massive penalties -- and this is before spells are considered -- but a wizard can be just as useful with his spells. In the end it comes completely down to the player.
If your cleric is built for healing and really likes doing healing and heal-like tasks, I'd avoid playing a Witch. A lot of your spells will overlap.
In my mind the wizard damn well BETTER be better at damage. Because the witch either ties or wins the rest of them.
Wizard is the overall better option because of versatility. Witches has a hard time against undead, elementals, swarms, and constructs as well.
In my mind the wizard damn well BETTER be better at damage. Because the witch either ties or wins the rest of them.Its replies like this, that reply to the actual topic of the thread rather than to the only post that's less than 2 years old, that makes necroing old threads a bad idea. Better to just start a new thread.
But on the new topic, you're probably not going to really get an answer given:
1) There are no epic rules.
2) Witch didn't exist when there were epic rules.
But if you were going for 3.5 epic rules, you'd be much better going archivist / wizard or even cleric / wizard. Your secondary casting stat only needs a 19, and you can get all 3 times of epic spell casting (druid, cleric, wizard) and 3x the epic casting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything a witch / wizard can do.
Oh, I'm sorry Shadowcat. Do you mind reposting the link to the terms of service section that covers responding to posts beyond a certain timeline? I assume you have it handy since you are acting as moderator and forum policeman on the subject. I'll do my best to conform to the TOS in the future.
If your cleric is built for healing and really likes doing healing and heal-like tasks, I'd avoid playing a Witch. A lot of your spells will overlap.
I agree, here. Even if your cleric isn't all that focused on healing, she's got lots of options and can pick and choose from the cleric list every day.
Blinded? Cleric's got it. Cursed? Cleric's got it, within 24 hrs.
With a cleric in the party, a wizard is a stronger choice. With a pally and/or a rogue, you'll have 2 or 3 people who can use healing wands or whatever.
A witch is a better choice for a party with limited healing, but a cleric in the group makes a wizard the best arcane caster. It's stronger than the witch, healers or not.
Oh, I'm sorry Shadowcat. Do you mind reposting the link to the terms of service section that covers responding to posts beyond a certain timeline? I assume you have it handy since you are acting as moderator and forum policeman on the subject. I'll do my best to conform to the TOS in the future.In my mind the wizard damn well BETTER be better at damage. Because the witch either ties or wins the rest of them.Its replies like this, that reply to the actual topic of the thread rather than to the only post that's less than 2 years old, that makes necroing old threads a bad idea. Better to just start a new thread.
But on the new topic, you're probably not going to really get an answer given:
1) There are no epic rules.
2) Witch didn't exist when there were epic rules.
But if you were going for 3.5 epic rules, you'd be much better going archivist / wizard or even cleric / wizard. Your secondary casting stat only needs a 19, and you can get all 3 times of epic spell casting (druid, cleric, wizard) and 3x the epic casting >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything a witch / wizard can do.
I'm not being a moderator, I'm being helpful. Had he posted a new thread, you would likely have seen his question and actually responded to his question rather than responding to a post that was 2 years old.
As to the ToS I will however point you to the "Don't be a jerk." rule. I look forward to you following it in the future.
So apparently there are no actual TOS violations involved in responding to an old post. It's just something that bugs YOU and therefore you think it bugs EVERYBODY and has to be called out and derided publicly.
Well, I appreciate the excellent demonstration of the "don't be a jerk rule". Thanks!
I love me a necro'd thread, especially when it's done like this.
Also, at 40th level, everything's crazy anyway. 70 int? Sounds about right...
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If your cleric is built for healing and really likes doing healing and heal-like tasks, I'd avoid playing a Witch. A lot of your spells will overlap.
I wouldn't say that.
Yes sure the witch has access to CLW line of spells and a couple of other divine, but a) she doesn't need to take them, b) extra healing for I don't know when the cleric goes down is nice and c) the witch usually is throwing around hexes like crazy instead of casting spells anyway.So just cause there's a cleric doesn't mean "avoid the witch" if you think its a cool class and you'll have fun, play it, you won't feel useless in either of those groups. Same goes for Wizard too.
Edit: didn't even realise this was a necro'd threat... why the hell are you doing that, when your question basicly has NOTHING to do with the original?
So apparently there are no actual TOS violations involved in responding to an old post. It's just something that bugs YOU and therefore you think it bugs EVERYBODY and has to be called out and derided publicly.
Well, I appreciate the excellent demonstration of the "don't be a jerk rule". Thanks!
First, show me where I derided anyone. I simply stated, truly, that if the post had been in its own thread you would have very likely seen it and helped the poster rather than the poster having to wait on me to come in and see what he was actually saying.
If you think my posts are out of line, feel free to flag them.
Shadowcat, I understand what you are trying to say. Personally I think you picked a very confrontational way to say it, but hey, it's all interwebz stuff, intentions and tone are hard to interpret. Perhaps if you had made the same point without quoting my comment, it would have come across less confrontational to me.
Still, whether the original post was two years old or not, it is more interesting to me than the "hey would a 20/20 wizard/witch break the game that doesn't even exist?" question that was posted.
Plus, I don't actually pay much attention to the date and time an entry was posted. Either I'm interested and feel like responding or I'm not. If I'm interested, I respond.
Because, you know, that's what the software is designed to do, what the community exists to allow and as others who have also responded to the OP like I did indicate, is what people actually do. Whether you feel it's "appropriate" or not.
Ok, I think I understand where the friction is coming from. I wasn't trying to bust your chops, I was trying to educate the poster of the question. I have no problem with people reviving old discussions, but if they want help on a topic that's only tangentially on topic, they are much better off creating a new thread.
My apologies for not being clearer in what I was trying to say.
No worries. I understand your point here and I could have been less snarky in my own response.
Still, I am much more interested in the witch vs wizard discussion than the 20/20 question. Had that question been posted separately I wouldn't have been interested enough to respond.
Whether it's a two year old discussion or not, I didn't participate in it two years ago and I do think it's an interesting subject to speculate on how wizards and witches compare in the roles listed (and some not listed).
Anyway, for whatever reason thread necromancy doesn't bother me at all. It's either interesting or its not. If it is, I like it, if it's not I pass on by. Worrying about when the post was made just doesn't even cross my mind.
2) Wizard again. Invisibility, Haste, and Improved Invisibility all from the same caster.
This is an area ripe for discussion I think. Yes, I agree that generic wizards have more buffing options than generic witches, but that doesn't mean wizards are necessarily better buffers than witches.
Witches gain some very good buffs as hexes that are essentially party-wide by default compared to the wizard. And there are witch archetypes and patrons that narrow the gap in buff options considerably. Plus witches may have fewer overall buffs, but they gain some that wizards lack.
Also, when I think of "buffer" I actually think of "buffer/debuffer". I agree that wizards have better pure buffing options, but I think witches have much better debuffing options. And since I consider the two to be two sides of the same coin, this brings the witch up to par with the wizard. Or maybe even slightly better.
I suppose we could add "debuffer" as a separate category, but I would prefer to keep "buffer/debuffer" as a category since it's conceptually aligned.
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4) Roughly equal. While witches are encouraged to be within 30 feet, they do get self healing and a mounted witch can negate the short range relatively easily, so I'm going to give the nod here to the Witch.
It's only 30 ft until 10th level then the with leaps miles ahead, literally. The range on the witch's hexes jump to 5310 feet after 10th level.
Wizards are much better at doing direct damage but since that's usually the LEAST effective way of using spells to disable opponents I'd consider it a non-issue.
go witch and be happy... and useful at the lower levels of the game.
It's only 30 ft until 10th level then the with leaps miles ahead, literally. The range on the witch's hexes jump to 5310 feet after 10th level.
4) Roughly equal. While witches are encouraged to be within 30 feet, they do get self healing and a mounted witch can negate the short range relatively easily, so I'm going to give the nod here to the Witch.
Maybe I'm missing something... but huh?
Cackle is still limited to 30ft even at level 20, and that's the main reason a witch has to stay that close.
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It's only 30 ft until 10th level then the with leaps miles ahead, literally. The range on the witch's hexes jump to 5310 feet after 10th level.
4) Roughly equal. While witches are encouraged to be within 30 feet, they do get self healing and a mounted witch can negate the short range relatively easily, so I'm going to give the nod here to the Witch.
Maybe I'm missing something... but huh?
Cackle is still limited to 30ft even at level 20, and that's the main reason a witch has to stay that close.
I think Mathwai is referring to the Scar hex:
"Scar (Su): This hex curses a single target touched with horrible scars of the witch’s choosing, whether something as simple as a single letter on the target’s forehead or blotchy, burn-like scars on his body. The target may make a Will save to resist this hex. These scars do not interfere with the target’s senses or prevent it from using abilities, but may affect social interactions. The witch can use her hexes on the scarred target at a range of up to 1 mile, and she is considered to have a body part from the target for the purpose of scrying and similar divination spells. They persist through disguises and shapechanging. The witch can withdraw this hex from a target as a move action at any range. The number of supernatural scars the witch can maintain at once is equal to her Intelligence bonus; once she reaches this limit, she must remove the scar from a current victim in order to mark another. Effects that remove curses can remove the scar."This essentially lets a witch use hexes from super far away on anyone she scars, and it doesn't seem to have a range itself. I'm not sure why level 10 would mean anything though, since you can choose Scar beginning at 1st level... ?
Exactly, scar is a level 1 hex. 2nd, it would mean I have to scar the enemy first, which means you just spend 1 round basicly doing nothing and then I somehow doubt any sane GM will allow you to use the scar hex itself from 1 mile away.
However Cackle is not a targeted hex it's a "everything in 30 ft range" hex, and even if someone with a scar is 100 ft away it doesn't affect them.
So I just can't see the connection to Scar here.
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Exactly, scar is a level 1 hex. 2nd, it would mean I have to scar the enemy first, which means you just spend 1 round basicly doing nothing and then I somehow doubt any sane GM will allow you to use the scar hex itself from 1 mile away.
However Cackle is not a targeted hex it's a "everything in 30 ft range" hex, and even if someone with a scar is 100 ft away it doesn't affect them.
So I just can't see the connection to Scar here.
Hmm, yeah that's a bit of a weird one... Scar says you can use your hexes up to mile away, and Cackle is a hex, so if you have Scarred someone, can you use Misfortune on them from 1000ft away and then Cackle to continue it, even though they're nowhere near 30 feet away? RAW I think so, but it's strange.
Edit: Here's another interesting situation, slightly related. A witch has the Beast Eye major hex, uses it on her raven familiar, then the familiar flies for several minutes to the enemy's base (Beast eye can be used for a minute per level each day, so let's say 10 minutes, so up to 400ft away at the raven's fly speed of 40ft). The raven can see the BBEG, and therefore so can the witch. The witch uses Scar on the BBEG, since there's no range on it, and she can perceive him. She can then use any other hexes on him from range without ever going near him. Intended? Not likely. Fun? Hell yes!
Wizard straight down the line. Use every utility spell you can to scrounge/steal/earn spare change in and out of adventures, then load up on wands and staves you make. Walk around with like 2 dozen of each seriously. Oh, and NEVER change your familiar. Ever.
There's some fun but targeted builds in witches, at least in what I've thought of, but Wizards are timeless and can do ANYTHINGGGGG!!!
You only need one stat. One. Everything else is gravy.
Your familiar (god forbid) is expendable. ALWAYS a familar; none of this magical heirloom jewelry crud...
And finally you have SO MANY sources of damage. The more vanilla the more versatile. Who cares about buffing the party when your horde of wands and staves covers ANY possible permutation of DR.
PS - witches are icky but girls go crazy for a dude in a robe. Don't believe me? 2 words: Hugh Hefner. Nuff said.
1. Damage dealer - Wizard
2. Buffs - Wizard
3. Utility - Wizard
4. General survivability - Witch
5. Overall usefulness - Wizard
EDIT: I assumed suviviability meant the party as a whole; thus witch wins for having healing. If you meant the PC herself, wizard wins handily. Witch doesn't get nearly as many mirror image, blink, teleport, turn ethereal, etc... effects.
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Then you take the Split Hex feat and you only have to get the scarred creature within 30' of the enemy. At least, I think that's how it's supposed to work.
It's theorycraft. I suspect it'd be difficult to get regular use out of.
Oh man, you're totally right. I honestly didn't find the Scar hex that super useful before (except for using healing hex on your teammates from a safe distance without having to touch them) but wow, it is really beneficial. You could be flying way above the whole battle, just Scarring people from afar (as long as you can see them) and then using hexes on them and anyone within 30 feet every round. My next PFS character is definitely gonna be a witch.
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I'm curious about peoples opinions - in a balanced party, would you rather have a witch or a wizard to fill each of the following roles (ie. Witch/Wizard for #1, Witch/Wizard for #2, etc):
1. Damage dealer
2. Buffs
3. Utility
4. General survivability
5. Overall usefulness
You missed two categories.
6. Debuffer7. Battlefield Control
1. If you mean direct damage, Wizard. But that's misleading because the best wizards do not do direct damage. If you mean damage-over-time, then witch.
2. Witch. Wizards have some good buff spells but so do witches. Plus they get Fortune hex which puts them in the winner's circle.
3. Wizard. But it is a close call.
4. Wizard. Any intelligent enemy will target witches first. Plus wizards get more of those self-protection and escape-type spells.
5. Tie. This one is just too close. Wizards have a lot of utility spells, but witches get healing. Wizards scribe scrolls but witches can get Brew Potion.
6. Witch. No contest here. Witches are the championship debuffers. Their hexes can cripple tough enemies within a few rounds.
7. Wizard. No contest here. Grease, Stinking Cloud, Wall of x spells, etc. Wizards are the championship battlefield control experts. "Let me alter the landscape/room a little so the fight is in your favor."
Hmm, yeah that's a bit of a weird one... Scar says you can use your hexes up to mile away, and Cackle is a hex, so if you have Scarred someone, can you use Misfortune on them from 1000ft away and then Cackle to continue it, even though they're nowhere near 30 feet away? RAW I think so, but it's strange.
Correct. That will work per the rules. Same is true with fortune. Scar the fighter and give him Fortune anywhere within a 1 mile radius as long as you cackle.
Edit: Here's another interesting situation, slightly related. A witch has the Beast Eye major hex, uses it on her raven familiar, then the familiar flies for several minutes to the enemy's base (Beast eye can be used for a minute per level each day, so let's say 10 minutes, so up to 400ft away at the raven's fly speed of 40ft). The raven can see the BBEG, and therefore so can the witch. The witch uses Scar on the BBEG, since there's no range on it, and she can perceive him. She can then use any other hexes on him from range without ever going near him. Intended? Not likely. Fun? Hell yes!
Almost. Scar requires a touch attack, but that can be delivered by a familiar. The raven's speed of 40' is the fly speed per round. That's 400' a minute or 4000' feet in 10 minutes. Otherwise, this is correct. Risky for the familiar, but it is within the rules.
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Hmm, yeah that's a bit of a weird one... Scar says you can use your hexes up to mile away, and Cackle is a hex, so if you have Scarred someone, can you use Misfortune on them from 1000ft away and then Cackle to continue it, even though they're nowhere near 30 feet away? RAW I think so, but it's strange.Correct. That will work per the rules. Same is true with fortune. Scar the fighter and give him Fortune anywhere within a 1 mile radius as long as you cackle.
Edit: Here's another interesting situation, slightly related. A witch has the Beast Eye major hex, uses it on her raven familiar, then the familiar flies for several minutes to the enemy's base (Beast eye can be used for a minute per level each day, so let's say 10 minutes, so up to 400ft away at the raven's fly speed of 40ft). The raven can see the BBEG, and therefore so can the witch. The witch uses Scar on the BBEG, since there's no range on it, and she can perceive him. She can then use any other hexes on him from range without ever going near him. Intended? Not likely. Fun? Hell yes!Almost. Scar requires a touch attack, but that can be delivered by a familiar. The raven's speed of 40' is the fly speed per round. That's 400' a minute or 4000' feet in 10 minutes. Otherwise, this is correct. Risky for the familiar, but it is within the rules.
Not quite, Beast eye only works on animals and your familiar is not an animal anymore it's a magical beast. However at the level that this becomes usable then you can already share senses with your familiar (via the spell).
Also the trick with Scar/Split hex is to scar a small creature OTHER than your party members (I like turtles myself). This allows you to use your attack hexes without affecting your party members.
Drop a turtle in their backpack and throw Ice Tombs, Agony's, Misfortunes and evil eyes that bounce off the turtle and onto anyone within 30 ft of any of your party members.
Brings a whole new level of awesome to the Scry and Fry playstyle.
Not quite, Beast eye only works on animals and your familiar is not an animal anymore it's a magical beast. However at the level that this becomes usable then you can already share senses with your familiar (via the spell).
Not quite quite.
"the witch may use this ability on her own familiar as if it were an animal" -- Pathfinder RPG PRD
Also the trick with Scar/Split hex is to scar a small creature OTHER than your party members (I like turtles myself). This allows you to use your attack hexes without affecting your party members.
Drop a turtle in their backpack and throw Ice Tombs, Agony's, Misfortunes and evil eyes that bounce off the turtle and onto anyone within 30 ft of any of your party members.
Interesting. Cruel to the turtle, but effective.
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4) Roughly equal. While witches are encouraged to be within 30 feet, they do get self healing and a mounted witch can negate the short range relatively easily, so I'm going to give the nod here to the Witch.
It's only 30 ft until 10th level then the with leaps miles ahead, literally. The range on the witch's hexes jump to 5310 feet after 10th level.
Wizards are much better at doing direct damage but since that's usually the LEAST effective way of using spells to disable opponents I'd consider it a non-issue.
go witch and be happy... and useful at the lower levels of the game.
1) You're less than half as good at that range, assuming cackle even works (which I don't believe it does but that's not a discussion for here) since you're only getting 1 hex out of your split hex feat. And you're paying a feat to be half as good (for the scar hex).
Actually I'm twice as effective at this range since I'll rarely need to waste a spell or action protecting myself.
2) It isn't available until level 11, not level 10, since you don't gain a feat at level 10.
No, you can do it at 10th. Play a beast bonded witch and throw one of your feats at the Familiar. at 10th level take the feat back and spend it on Split Hex.
3) You're totally out of range for all of your spells. Hope nothing unexpected happens that your hexes can't handle.
If a situation comes up where you need to use a close range spell, well dimension door and teleport are on your spell list.
4) How will you even know your comrades are in combat, do you know what the DC to perceive something a mile away is? -528 to the perception roll. Good luck with that.
Scry, share senses, send the damn familiar with the party, Go with them inside your familiar.
It's what makes beast bonded or necromancy focused witches so dangerous so dangerous.5) You're a mile away from help. If you're GM is even a little bit mean and/or smart, you'll die.
If a situation like this comes up, well dimension door and teleport are on your spell list for a reason.
So ya, you can theory craft about how good the scar hex makes everything, but in the end, I'll take a horse any day.
Good for you, I prefer adventuring from my portable house in my harem and being safe and effective.
It simple if you have sorcerer then play witch and work building you spell list together. Between the two of you guy should have any and all wizard type spell covered.(also ton of odd ball stuff) Use hexs to make is saves DC better for the Sorcer.
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Hmm, yeah that's a bit of a weird one... Scar says you can use your hexes up to mile away, and Cackle is a hex, so if you have Scarred someone, can you use Misfortune on them from 1000ft away and then Cackle to continue it, even though they're nowhere near 30 feet away? RAW I think so, but it's strange.Correct. That will work per the rules. Same is true with fortune. Scar the fighter and give him Fortune anywhere within a 1 mile radius as long as you cackle.
Edit: Here's another interesting situation, slightly related. A witch has the Beast Eye major hex, uses it on her raven familiar, then the familiar flies for several minutes to the enemy's base (Beast eye can be used for a minute per level each day, so let's say 10 minutes, so up to 400ft away at the raven's fly speed of 40ft). The raven can see the BBEG, and therefore so can the witch. The witch uses Scar on the BBEG, since there's no range on it, and she can perceive him. She can then use any other hexes on him from range without ever going near him. Intended? Not likely. Fun? Hell yes!Almost. Scar requires a touch attack, but that can be delivered by a familiar. The raven's speed of 40' is the fly speed per round. That's 400' a minute or 4000' feet in 10 minutes. Otherwise, this is correct. Risky for the familiar, but it is within the rules.
Ah! I missed the touch attack. I also never realized that a witch's familiar can deliver her touch hexes for her (specifically stated in the witch familiar section) so that's pretty cool. So you'd want a familiar with super high AC (maybe casting shield or something like that on it) to attempt it. Still a very fun idea.
If your cleric is built for healing and really likes doing healing and heal-like tasks, I'd avoid playing a Witch. A lot of your spells will overlap.
This is the answer you are looking for.
If your cleric is built for healing and really likes doing healing and heal-like tasks, I'd avoid playing a Witch. A lot of your spells will overlap.This is the answer you are looking for.
No, I disagree. Witches have the Healing Hex and some Cure spells, but its more like Bard or Druid healing. Sure, some witch spells overlap with cleric, wizards, druids, and bards but it doesn't make them redundant.
Witch strengths are the hexes more than the spells. While the cleric heals/buffs the party, the witch takes down the enemies saves and other stats. They are more complementary.
The choice between Wizard and Witch really comes down between Battlefield Control or Debuffing.
Cackle is still limited to 30ft even at level 20, and that's the main reason a witch has to stay that close.
Witches with the Time patron have access to the ventriloquism spell, which is effectively a spectral hand for cackle.