Which does not change the original point. You're still dependent on caster pity, even after paying your feat tax. Which you are less capable of being able to afford, since your combat feats do less, and therefore you need more of them to compensate.
And there's still things you can't craft at all.
You have to pay a feat tax.
You have to pay a skill tax.
You can only create items that the skill allows you to.
But, you are not dependent on caster pity.
Take 10 and you'll be fine.
I must point out that according to some of your previous posts, comparatively low Con is all fighters should have because they blow their points elsewhere ...They have 14. The Wizards have 16.
When someone says low Con, they mean less than 14.
Except they don't have to, and I have proved they don't have to - 16-18 is much more likely and more optimal. I find it perplexing that you can min-max the hell out of a wizard but cannot do the same for a fighter.
I removed a couple posts.
If you have an issue with another member of the messageboards, please flag it and move on. If you have a concern about a post that you feel isn't obvious from the post itself (such as sockpuppetry), please send an email to webmaster@paizo.com to explain what the issue is, and it will be looked into.
There is little point in accusing anyone of being a sock puppet publicly. You can't prove it, so even if you are correct, your target can simply deny it. Do you expect them to admit it? Or give up and go home, fearing recognition? And if you're wrong, you're just being a jerk.
Master Craftsman
Master Craftsman works as a feat. Despite the weird typos in the crafting section, I am pretty sure you can have someone else cast the spell for you to avoid the +5 DC.
Crafting wands, staves, and scrolls is very uncertain on this, but that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
The real problems with master craftsman + craft feat on martial characters are.
A. Most martial characters are feat starved. If you have problems squeezing those 2 feats into a fighter build, imagine trying to squeeze just craft arms and armor into a dual wield or mounted paladin build. There is a reason why most of my martial character builds are human, that extra feat is damn near necessary.
B. Most martial characters are skill deprived. Most martial character have 2+ int or 4 + int skill points and have int as a dump stat, as such they tend to have little to no skill points. To get the most out of master craftsman, you have to keep your crafting skill ranks at your character level. This represents a significant investment for most martial characters that comes at the expense of other important skills like perception, sense motive, etc. Even paladin's and rangers will have to keep their spellcraft skill high if they want to craft items, and they have caster levels.
caster pity
The problem with Craft Arms and Armor is that no wizard is going to take that feat for themselves. As a Wizard, I get a lot of use out of Craft Wonderous items. Then my next 3 craft skills would be Wands, Rods, Rings, Staves, Brew potion. If I were a purely selfish wizard, I would get craft construct before I would get craft arms and armor.
As for getting a spell cast. If the +5DC is so important, you can always pay an NPC to cast the spell for you. Getting a level 7 NPC cleric to cast holy smite costs 280 gold. +1 holy weapon = 18k gold. Crafting a +1 holy weapon and paying an NPC to cast holy smite = 9,280 gold. You still come out ahead.
+hit by level
+10 to hit is pretty normal for level 5. I grabbed an equal CR opponent from the bestary, but a level 5 fighter with a +1/MW weapon and a strength of 18 is a +10 to hit. A good ranged character(caster or archer) won't let most creatures get a full attack off unless they have something like pounce. Take a look at a level 15 fighter +4 weapon, 26 strength = +27 to hit on the first attack, +29 if you charge. The same fighter in +4 full plate with max dex bonus, ring of prot +2, amulet of NA +2 has an AC of 33. Very old black dragon(CR15), AC 35, +29 to hit with their bite attack. In general after a certain level, most creatures will have a better than 75% chance to hit with a single attack when charging. The creatures who can't, are usually magical creatures who attack using spells and abilities. Sure you can do a build that optimizes for maximum AC, but that usually comes at the expense of damage dealing, and at some point, AC becomes irrelevant. Who does better against a black dragon using their breath weapon? A fighter with 100 AC or a wizard with protection from energy.
level 10 fighter AC
AC28 fighter, unbuffed = Full plate +3, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +1, and 18 dexterity(+4 is the fighter's max dex bonus). That is roughly a third of the fighters WBL on defensive items. Assuming the fighter is maximized for damage, they are most likely either two-hand or dual wield so no shield. This is also assuming that the fighter can get an 18 dex without buying a belt of dexterity. Sure you can get better AC, but most likely that AC is going to come at the expense of damage dealing. Also, in most realistic situations, the fighter will also have buffs, but seeing that a lot of those AC boosting buffs(like haste) come from wizards, I left them out.
Standard Treasure
First, no matter how you acquired the magic item, it still counts against your wealth by level. Second, yes, you do get a lot of weapons/armor as standard treasure, but this may or may not help. Most martial characters specialize in one particular weapon. If you are a dual kukri wielding fighter(with all the feats focusing on using kukris), that +2 longsword you found is actually worse DPR than a masterwork kukri. Meanwhile, the wizard gets to pick through every spellbook you find, copy spells to his book, then give the book back to the group to sell. Spellbooks that are found do not count against the wizard's WBL because he doesn't need to keep them to get the benefit. A party with 4 wizards that finds a spellbook can all copy spells out of it. A party of 4 fighters can't all share the same +2 longsword.
TLDR
My experience with optimizing wizards is that they are a lot easier than martial characters. With martial characters, I often have to make meaningful trade offs. With casters, I often have extra feats/skill points left over for fluff things that I don't really need to be combat effective. This is why I generally avoid playing pure casters, there are really no hard choices to make when optimizing. No challenge really. YMMV.
Oh, another advantage of pure casters. Economy of action.
At low levels, martial types do just fine using things like cleaves and charges, but as they go up in level martial character have to full attack to do their max damage. This leaves them with a 5 foot step.
Casters meanwhile get more and more bang out of a standard action as their spells get stronger and stronger.
This leaves them a move action for repositioning. This lets casters do things like cast a spell them move into total cover, where an archer would have to give up damage to shoot on the move. Tumble away from a melee attacker then cast a spell, etc.
|
I must point out that according to some of your previous posts, comparatively low Con is all fighters should have because they blow their points elsewhere ...They have 14. The Wizards have 16.
When someone says low Con, they mean less than 14.
With low scores everywhere else, including dex (touch and ranged attacks as well as AC and init) wisdom (who needs all those perception checks and the bonus to will saves) and charisma (so what if no one likes me)
Let's see how long until we here about how initiative is overrated.
TLDR
My experience with optimizing wizards is that they are a lot easier than martial characters. With martial characters, I often have to make meaningful trade offs. With casters, I often have extra feats/skill points left over for fluff things that I don't really need to be combat effective. This is why I generally avoid playing pure casters, there are really no hard choices to make when optimizing. No challenge really. YMMV.
Exactly - where's the challenge?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So anyway, here is my stab at a wizard(Diviner(Forsight)).
Starting stats
Str 8 (-2)
Dex 14 (+5)
Con 14 (+5)
Int 18 (+17)
Wis 10 (0)
Cha 10 (0)
Class abilities
Arcane Bond Ring - allows you to forge ring on it without the feat.
Forewarned (Su): +1 /2 levels to init, alwasy act in surprise round.
Prescience (Su): Useful for saves and making sure that touch attacks hit. If you roll badly you don't have to use it.
Foretell (Su) +2 luck bonus to all allies or a -2 luck penalty to all enemies(no save)
Opposition schools
Enchantment and Necromancy - a lot of the spells in this school are mind effecting/single target spells. I really don't like single target SoD/SoS especially when they allow a save every round to recover. If you really want a spell from these schools get a wand/scroll.
Pick human with +2 int, and put all stat gains into int.
Feats
1 - Scribe Scroll(Free), Spell Focus(Conjuration), Improved Init(Human)
3 - Craft Wonderous Items
5 - Augment Summoning, Greater Spell Focus(Conjuration)
7 - Spell Focus(Transmutation)
9 - Greater Spell Focus(Transmutation)
10 - Bouncing Spell
11 - Spell Penetration
13 - Quicken Spell
15 - Greater Spell Penetration, Persistant Spell
Gear by level
1 - Arcane bond ring(I picked ring to allow me to enchant my ring without needing forge ring)
3 - Craft ring of protection +1 and cloak of resist +1, 1.5k gold left.
4 - Buy Headband of int +2, 500 gold left.
6 - Upgrade ring and cloak to +2, Craft amulet of natural armor +2, 3k gold left.
8 - Upgrade Headband of int to +6, 4k gold left.
9 - Craft a handy haversack, upgrade ring, and cloak to +3, 8.5k gold left.
10 - Craft Belt of dex/con +2, upgrade amulet to +3, 14.5k gold left
12 - Upgrade ring, cloak, and amulet to +4, 43k gold left.
13 - Craft Belt of dex/con +4, 60k gold left.
15 - Upgrade ring, cloak, and amulet to +5, 152.5k gold left
After level 5, start dumping any extra gold goes into buying necessary spells, crafting useful wands/staves/rods, etc.
HP AC Spell DC initiative and save progression
AC is listed unbuffed(Mage armor/MA + Shield)
DC is listed as base(with spell focus)
Level 1 HP 8 AC 12(16/20) DC 15(16) Init +7 Fort +2 Ref +2 Will +2
Level 5 HP 28 AC 13(17/21) DC 19(21) Init +8 Fort +4 Ref +4 Will +5
Level 10 HP 63 AC 19(23/27) DC 23(25) Init +12 Fort +9 Ref +9 Will +10
Level 15 HP 108 AC 24(28/32) DC 26(28) Init +15 Fort +14 Ref +14 Will +14
Skills
That gives you 7 skill points per level. At level 8 and 16 gain +1 skill point per level that is retroactive. You will also gain more skills when you buy and upgrade your headband of int, maximize this by making sure the skills contained in the headband do not overlap too much with the skills you already know.
Keep spellcraft and perception maxed out until at least level 10.
Spread 3 points per level among knowledge skills.
Keep stealth at half level or more.
You still have points left over for misc skills.
Key Spells
Note this is the wizard's spell book, not memorized spells. These spells are only the spells gained automatically. Most wizards will typically have a lot more spells than this.
1 - Shield, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Summon Monster I, True Strike, Magic Missle, Vanish, Ray of Enfeeblement, Feather Fall, Disguise Self,
Color Spray
2 - Glitter Dust, Summon Monster II, See Invisibility, Mirror Image
3 - Summon Monster III, Arcane Sight, Stinking Cloud, Slow
4 - Summon Monster IV, Black tentacles, Scrying, Firefall
5 - Summon Monster V, Teleport, Prying Eyes, Baleful Polymorph
6 - Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron, True Seeing, Flesh to Stone
7 - Summon Monster VII, Greater Scrying, Waves of Exhaustion, Greater Teleport
Shouldn't level 15 unbuffed AC 24 instead of 14?
Shouldn't level 15 unbuffed AC 24 instead of 14?
Yeah, typoed it.
If I were a purely selfish wizard, I would get craft construct before I would get craft arms and armor.But you can't. You have to get craft arms & armor first.
Also, this is a great argument against playing with purely selfish players. Not a great argument against or for any class.
QFT. IC and OOC it's not a brilliant idea. The party are a team, they should be backing each other up and combining their abilities to work to their strengths. The players are playing a social game - yes the idea is to have fun, but not at the expense of other players and this is what selfish players/characters ultimately do.
Oh, another advantage of pure casters. Economy of action.
At low levels, martial types do just fine using things like cleaves and charges, but as they go up in level martial character have to full attack to do their max damage. This leaves them with a 5 foot step.
Casters meanwhile get more and more bang out of a standard action as their spells get stronger and stronger.
This leaves them a move action for repositioning. This lets casters do things like cast a spell them move into total cover, where an archer would have to give up damage to shoot on the move. Tumble away from a melee attacker then cast a spell, etc.
Melee characters do have issues with action economy -- this is true of any melee character though (just a reminder people martial =/= melee) however martial melee characters have got a lot of help on this recently, consider:
Mobile Fighter archtype
Two weapon Fighter archtype
Beast totem Barbarian
Monk of the Four Winds (who can move up to you, grapple and pin you in one round or if standing beside you already *not a smart place to be but still* can stun grapple and then pin you in the same round).
Spirited charge as always been around for mounted melee types.
And now we have the new feat in the APG that lets you full attack in melee while your mount moves.
Also tumbling isn't nearly as easy as it once was as the check involves CMD.
stats for a character
Mind including favored class bonus picks, CMD, and HP?
Also I don't see anywhere that crafting your own items actually lets you go over wealth by level.
Actually the average is about 10 at this level. Earth elementals have 14's but they always have a higher than average to-hit anyway.Buncha StuffI don't think you're wrong, but I'd like to point out a few things.
AC
At 5th level, most stuff does not have a +10 to attack.Correct. Most stuff at 5th level has a higher attack than this. +11, +12, +13, or even +14 are not unheard of, and are quite common simply by looking at CR 5 bestiary stuff. Exactly as written. These creatures also have multiple attacks. Some can even Pounce you, which means another +2 to hit from charging, and a full attack.
.
I don't think it's even that. The average CR 5 monster has +10 to hit (many higher and some lower). But the average CR 5 encounter is often less:
Winter Wolf: +10
Troll: +8, +8, +8
4 wolves: +2, +2, +2, +2
2 Dire wolves: +7, +7
2 wights: +4, +4
2 satyrs: +6, +1, +6, +1
Woolly Rhino: +14
Phase Spider: +10
11 Orcs: 11 at +4
2 Ogres: +7, +7
Ochre Jelly: +5
Nightmare: +9, +4, +4
4 Homunculi: +3, +3, +3, +3
and so on.
Using multiple monsters might be a CR encounter, but not a CR 10 monster. The two are not comparable since they are not addressing the same issue.
stats for a characterMind including favored class bonus picks, CMD, and HP?
Also I don't see anywhere that crafting your own items actually lets you go over wealth by level.
I didn't use any favored class bonuses. HP progression is there.
Nowhere does it say that it doesn't allow you to go over wealth by level. You could make the arguement that with crafting you cannot go over WBL, but then where does that leave players who cannot craft?
Crafting gives you a significant discount to items costs, that is built into the mechanics. WBL guidlines also specify treasure pre encounter for the group. This means the group sould be getting X amount of gold to spend however they choose. If they have a way of getting items for a discount, more power to them.
Using multiple monsters might be a CR encounter, but not a CR 10 monster. The two are not comparable since they are not addressing the same issue.
Don't you mean CR 5? That's what the other two posts were referencing (and mine as well).
Lyrax stated that at 5th level, most "stuff" doesn't have a +10 to hit. If you use the bestiary and the encounter building rules, he is right for the most part, assuming that standard encounters are the norm and you occassionally place encounters that are challenging and above.
CodZilla countered that most "stuff" at 5th level has a higher attack than this. He is right if you frequently use just CR 5+ monsters vs. a APL 5 party or if you have your challenging, hard, epic encounters far outstrip the standard ones for this level.
QFT. IC and OOC it's not a brilliant idea. The party are a team, they should be backing each other up and combining their abilities to work to their strengths. The players are playing a social game - yes the idea is to have fun, but not at the expense of other players and this is what selfish players/characters ultimately do.If I were a purely selfish wizard, I would get craft construct before I would get craft arms and armor.But you can't. You have to get craft arms & armor first.
Also, this is a great argument against playing with purely selfish players. Not a great argument against or for any class.
Wait if I don't take a feat that benefits your character and not mine I am automatically a selfish/bad/horrible player? Teamwork has its place, but you cross the line when you are forcing other players to expend their permenant resourses purely for you benefit.
[sarcasm] What is next? I demand the fighter buy a +5 tower shield, and walk around in front of me as my personal shield bot in the name of "teamwork".
[/sarcasm]
Expecting me to take a feat for you and be your little craft bot is completely different from casting haste when it make sense to make the party fight better.
Note, I never said I wouldn't take craft arms and armor. I was merely pointing out that you are asking the wizard to take a feat that is of almost no value to the wizard himself. That to me is the very definition of being at someone else's mercy. I might ask the wizard or cleric to take craft arms and armor, but I surely wouldn't be put out if they said no.
Using multiple monsters might be a CR encounter, but not a CR 10 monster. The two are not comparable since they are not addressing the same issue.Don't you mean CR 5? That's what the other two posts were referencing (and mine as well).
Lyrax stated that at 5th level, most "stuff" doesn't have a +10 to hit. If you use the bestiary and the encounter building rules, he is right for the most part. He is only wrong if you frequently use just CR 5+ monsters vs. a APL 5 party.
I did mean 5. I have no idea why I put 10. I thought he said CR 5. I misread him.
PS:I almost used the "10" again until I reread it.
Using multiple monsters might be a CR encounter, but not a CR 10 monster. The two are not comparable since they are not addressing the same issue.Don't you mean CR 5? That's what the other two posts were referencing (and mine as well).
Lyrax stated that at 5th level, most "stuff" doesn't have a +10 to hit. If you use the bestiary and the encounter building rules, he is right for the most part. He is only wrong if you frequently use just CR 5+ monsters vs. a APL 5 party.
I did mean 5. I have no idea why I put 10. I thought he said CR 5. I misread him.
PS:I almost used the "10" again until I reread it.
No worries. I edited my above post a bit.
awesome wizard
Few problems.
Spells selected: as a Diviner you need to choose one spell at each level (not spell level) that is a Divination spell. So of the 4 spells/level you have chosen 2 would be Divinations.Bonded Object: You still would need to be level 7 to enchant your ring, since Forge Ring has a prerequisite of CL 7.
Nitpicky, I know, just want to make sure everything is kosher.
My wizard build is very similar, though I wait til 5 to take Craft Wondrous, and I put more emphasis on skills (Skill Focus: Knowledge Arcana to get into Loremaster).
stats for a characterMind including favored class bonus picks, CMD, and HP?
Also I don't see anywhere that crafting your own items actually lets you go over wealth by level.
I didn't use any favored class bonuses. HP progression is there.
Nowhere does it say that it doesn't allow you to go over wealth by level. You could make the arguement that with crafting you cannot go over WBL, but then where does that leave players who cannot craft?
Crafting gives you a significant discount to items costs, that is built into the mechanics. WBL guidlines also specify treasure pre encounter for the group. This means the group sould be getting X amount of gold to spend however they choose. If they have a way of getting items for a discount, more power to them.
However even if they get the items at a discount that means they've sold stuff to make that up -- sold at 1/2 value while buying at 1/2 value leaves you at value... not double it.
This is especially flawed when you just said this:
First, no matter how you acquired the magic item, it still counts against your wealth by level.
I see the HP now, missed it the first time (the numbers ran together on me).
Also your level 10 fighter AC above isn't well done and leaves several things completely out of the equation (understanding that you posted quickly but many of your base assumptions at that point become flawed). I would offer up for consideration the first (meh) 7 pages of the wizard vs melee thread as I handiedly posted at two builds with double digit saves, DPR 100, with 100 HP and AC over 40 at level 11. After those I have several more of different classes that if you really want I can post as well. I can't say that I believe that 1 level should make a +12 difference in AC (consider for example that a +1 heavy animated shield costs 4k in addition to full plate +2 gives a +2 better bonus to AC -- now granted you got to set out and recover the shield but most combats are supposed to last only 4~5 rounds -- the shield dances for 4 which means I should recover either right after combat or in the last round).
stats for a characterMind including favored class bonus picks, CMD, and HP?
Also I don't see anywhere that crafting your own items actually lets you go over wealth by level.
I didn't use any favored class bonuses. HP progression is there.
Nowhere does it say that it doesn't allow you to go over wealth by level. You could make the arguement that with crafting you cannot go over WBL, but then where does that leave players who cannot craft?
Crafting gives you a significant discount to items costs, that is built into the mechanics. WBL guidlines also specify treasure pre encounter for the group. This means the group sould be getting X amount of gold to spend however they choose. If they have a way of getting items for a discount, more power to them.
However even if they get the items at a discount that means they've sold stuff to make that up -- sold at 1/2 value while buying at 1/2 value leaves you at value... not double it.
This is especially flawed when you just said this:
First, no matter how you acquired the magic item, it still counts against your wealth by level.
Yes and no, I generally consider WBL to be the total value of in cash the players recieve. If a player can make use of an item they find directly, then it is like getting a discount similar to having the item crafted. So if I am a longsword fighter, and I find a +3 longsword, I get a discount similar to if I a party member crafted it for me. Even then, half of the value of that longsword still comes out of my wealth by level. How much wealth by level does a wizard usually spend on a melee or ranged weapon? My point was that typically wizards do not devote any of their WBL to a weapon or armor.
If you adhere to strict WBL guidlines, and do not let any player have a total value of items greater than the guidlines, then you are actually penalizing players for taking crafting feats. For example:
A. I get 2000 gold, and I use it to craft a 4000 gold magic item which the DM then counts at 4000 gold worth of party wealth. The DM then limits future treasure based on the wealth of items owned by the party.
B. I get 4000 gold, I buy a 4000 gold magic item which then counts as 4000 in total wealth. The DM plans future encounters based on the wealth owned by the party.
Either way, I end up in the same situation, but with B I didn't waste a feat to get there. With A the DM is actively penalizing the players for taking crafting feats by limiting future treasure rewards.
The problem for most martial character is that they a specialized for one particular weapon due to the mechanics of feats like weapon focus and improved critical. Using another type of weapon is often a significant hit in DPR. Further, their dex bonus + class restricting usually means that one specific type of armor is optimal. Because of this over 90% of the weapons and armor we find get sold.
Have you read PF's crafting rules? They're different from 3.5 in this respect. At this point, crafting happens while you're adventuring -- essentially, on any day in which you have enough rest to regain spells, you're guaranteed to have sufficient time to craft.
I hadn't realized that they were changed. Thank you for pointing this out. It certainly addresses one of the concerns that some of my players have had with taking Item Creation feats. If they don't have the time to make the items, then they don't want the feats. While it still makes crafting some of the more expensive items unlikely while adventuring, I think we will see many more wands, scrolls, and potions being crafted. I also think we may see a one or two expensive items being worked on a bit more diligently.
Thank you very, very much for this important bit of information I missed.
awesome wizardFew problems.
Spells selected: as a Diviner you need to choose one spell at each level (not spell level) that is a Divination spell. So of the 4 spells/level you have chosen 2 would be Divinations.
Bonded Object: You still would need to be level 7 to enchant your ring, since Forge Ring has a prerequisite of CL 7.Nitpicky, I know, just want to make sure everything is kosher.
My wizard build is very similar, though I wait til 5 to take Craft Wondrous, and I put more emphasis on skills (Skill Focus: Knowledge Arcana to get into Loremaster).
It was something I threw together in an hour, I am not surprised there are errors. I am also wondering in necromancy was the best choice for my second opposition school. I was mostly making sure that I had one divination spell per level. In actual play, a wizard is likely going to have 3 times more spells than that total.
The craft feat at 3rd was mostly to see how early I could get the various magic items crafted. In most of the campaigns I play in, we are usually running under WBL from levels 2-5, then from 5-10 we start getting more and more wealth until by around level 7 or 8 we are actually over the WBL guidlines. In an actual campaign, I would likely delay getting some of those items a level or 2 to be able to afford more spells for my spellbook.
There was not strict reason to get SF/GSF for both conjuration and transmutation. I mostly did it because I could. I could probably get rid of all 4 of those feats, and still have a viable god wizard.
While it still makes crafting some of the more expensive items unlikely while adventuring, I think we will see many more wands, scrolls, and potions being crafted.
That's pretty much my experience playing with it so far, incidentally -- that the bulk of it is consumables with a few must-have wondrous etc.
I don't love that it ups the power of Scribe Scroll as a free Wizard feat considerably at low levels, when all the permanent items you want are mostly too expensive and having the right spell (or any spell, when you've run out of juice) can be so clutch, but otherwise I think it's a purely good change -- it evens out expectations of how much you'll get to craft in a campaign a fair bit.
awesome wizardFew problems.
Spells selected: as a Diviner you need to choose one spell at each level (not spell level) that is a Divination spell. So of the 4 spells/level you have chosen 2 would be Divinations.
Bonded Object: You still would need to be level 7 to enchant your ring, since Forge Ring has a prerequisite of CL 7.Nitpicky, I know, just want to make sure everything is kosher.
My wizard build is very similar, though I wait til 5 to take Craft Wondrous, and I put more emphasis on skills (Skill Focus: Knowledge Arcana to get into Loremaster).It was something I threw together in an hour, I am not surprised there are errors. I am also wondering in necromancy was the best choice for my second opposition school. I was mostly making sure that I had one divination spell per level. In actual play, a wizard is likely going to have 3 times more spells than that total.
The craft feat at 3rd was mostly to see how early I could get the various magic items crafted. In most of the campaigns I play in, we are usually running under WBL from levels 2-5, then from 5-10 we start getting more and more wealth until by around level 7 or 8 we are actually over the WBL guidlines. In an actual campaign, I would likely delay getting some of those items a level or 2 to be able to afford more spells for my spellbook.
There was not strict reason to get SF/GSF for both conjuration and transmutation. I mostly did it because I could. I could probably get rid of all 4 of those feats, and still have a viable god wizard.
I understand. Again it wasn't a genuine criticism of the build but more nitpicking. Mostly I was surprised it was almost identical to the wizard I'm playing RIGHT NOW. I hemmed and hawed but decided on the straight Divination school rather than foresight. My point buy was different because I am also being the party face and wanted the Dreamspeaker alternate elf racial.
The first thing I'd put on a right, also, is Sustenance. Once you have sustenance you will be guaranteed a days worth of "on the road" crafting every day while everyone sleeps.
Wizard I promised a few days ago...25 point buy, core and apg only.
Human universalist wizard 20
Str 10 (8 starting stat, +2 ioun stone)
Dex 22 (12 starting stat, +4 wish spell, +6 Stat boosting item)
Con 22 (16 starting stat, +6 Stat boosting item)
Int 34 (17 starting stat, +5 levels, +4 wish spell, +6 stat boosting item)
Wis 14 (12 starting stat, +2 ioun stone)
Cha 10
Hit Points: 227 (81 dice, 20 Toughness, 120 Con, 6 Favored Class)
Temp Hit Points: 15 (average) false life
AC - 21, T 17, FF 14
CMB - 8, CMD - 24(Ring of Freedom of Movement)
Fort - +17, Ref - +18 (Ring of Evasion), Will - +19
Initiative - +12 (will win initiative fairly often though not always)
Favored Class
1-6 - +1 HP
7-20 - extra spell
Traits
* Reactionary - +2 Initiative
* Focused Mind - +2 Concentration
Appraise +25
Disable Device +27 (Int booster)
Fly +30
Know(Magic) +35
Know(Dungeons) +35
Know(Technobabble) +16
Know(Maps) +16
Know(How to tell Time) +35
Know(Flowers) +35
Know(Flamboyant People) +35
Know(Secrets of the Universe) +35
Know(Indoctrination) +35
Linguist +25
Perception +22 (Int Booster)
Spellcraft +35
Stealth +25
Use Magic Device +20 (Int booster)
Human - Combat Casting
1st - Improved Initiative
W1 - Scribe Scroll
3rd - Spell Focus: Illusion
5th - Greater Spell Focus: Illusion
W5 - Heighten Spell
7th - Spell Focus: Enchantment
9th - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
W10 - Extend Spell
11th - Spell Focus: Necromancy
13th - Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
15th - Spell Penetration
W15 - Quicken Spell
17th - Spell Perfection:
19th - Toughness
20th - Persistent Spell
Spell DC's 22 + spell level
Enchantment, Necromancy, Illusion DC's +2
+32 Concentration, +38 when casting defensively (not gonna fail)
Bonded Object: Amulet
Hand of the Apprentice 15 uses per day (won't ever use it though)
Metamagic Mastery 7 uses per day (Quicken spell with 3 left over)
1st Level Spells-----Per day: 7
Mage Armor
Detect Secret Doors
Charm Person
Magic Missile
Ray of Enfeeblement
Identify
Color Spray
Magic Aura
Endure Elements
Comprehend Languages
Alarm
Feather Fall
Ant Haul
Enlarge Person
2nd Level Spells-----Per day: 7
Resist Energy
Glitterdust
Web
False Life
Make Whole
Blindness/Deafness
See Invisibility
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Alter Self
Rope Trick
Hypnotic Pattern
3rd Level Spells-----Per day: 7
Dispel Magic
Sleet Storm
Displacement
Stinking Cloud
Hold Person
Suggestion
Slow
Water Breathing
Aqueous Orb
Tongues
Wind Wall
Major Image
Invisibilty Sphere
Haste
Fly
4th Level Spells-----Per day: 7
Black Tentacles
Greater Invisibility
Fear
Enervation
Fear
Dimensional Anchor
Ice Storm
Stone Skin
Dimension Door
Wall of Ice
Bestow Curse
Stone Shape
Remove Curse
5th Level Spells-----Per day: 6
Cloudkill
Magic Jar
Dismissal
Overland Flight
Feeblemind
Phantasmal Web
Mind Fog
Cone of Cold
Passwall
Wall of Force
Break Enchantment
Mage's Private Sanctum
Major Creation
Telepathic Bond
Hold Monster
Sending
Nightmare
6th Level Spells-----Per day: 6
Greater Dispel Magic
Globe of Invulnerability
Repulsion
Programmed Image
Mass Suggestion
Getaway
True Seeing
Greater Heroism
Contagious Flame
Forceful Hand
Mislead
Create Undead
Move Earth
Disintegrate
Control Water
7th Level Spells-----Per day: 6
Banishment
Mass Hold Person
Forcecage
Simulacrum
Grasping Hand
Reverse Gravity
Firebrand
Prismatic Spray
Plane Shift
Summon Monster 7
Greater Teleport
Greater Arcane Sight
Power Word Blind
Greater Scrying
Waves of Exhaustion
Mass Invisibility
8th Level Spells-----Per day: 6
Clone
Greater Planar Binding
Power Word Stun
Create Greater Undead
Maze
Irresistable Dance
Polymorph Any Object
Stormbolts
Dimensional Lock
Protection from Spells
Mass Charm Monster
Clenched Fist
Binding
9th Level Spells-----Per day: 5
Power Word Kill
Mass Hold Monster
Dominate Monster
Mage's Disjunction
Gate
Timestop
Wish
Imprisonment
Prismatic Sphere
Summon Monster 9
Shades
Weird
Wail of the Banshee
Etherealness
Spells always (or nearly always) active
Mage Armor
False Life
Overland Flight
Contingency - Mislead
Clone
Wish spell x4 for +4 Intelligence 100,000 gp
Wish spell x4 for +4 Dexterity 100,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +5 25,000 gp
Headband of Vast Intellect +6 36,000 gp
Belt of Physical Might (dex,con) +6 90,000 gp
Ring of Freedom of Movement 40,000 gp
Ring of Evasion 25,000 gp
Gloves of Arrow Snaring (equipped) 4,000 gp
Amulet of Magecraft 20,000 gp
Goggles of Night 12,000 gp
Ioun Stone +2 Wisdom 8,000 gp
Ioun Stone +2 Strength 8,000 gp
Efficient Quiver 1,800 gp
Handy Haversack 2,000 gp
Rod of Absorption 50,000 gp
Metamagic Rod of Extend, Greater 24,500 gp
Metamagic Rod of Silence, Greater 24,500 gp
Metamagic Rod of Persistence, Greater 24,500 gp
Metamagic Rod of Quicken 75,500 gp
Scrolls for Spellbook - 98,575 gp
Crystal for Magic Jar - 100 gp
Pair of Canine Statuettes for Repulsion 50 gp
Eye ointment (x8) for True Seeing 2000 gp
Ivory Statuette for Contingency 1,500 gp
Jade Dust (x9)for Programmed Image 225 gp
Ruby Dust (x5) for Forcecage 2,500 gp
Lab Equipment for Clone 500 gp
Lab Supplies for Clone 1500 gp
Rare Incence (x2) for Gate 20,000 gp
diamond dust (x4) for Stone Skin 1,000 gp
500 gp x 15 HD for Tarrasque Simulacrum 7,500 gp
Total Gold Spent - 806, 250 (didn't really need to spend that much but whatever)
Gold Remaining - 73, 750 (to buy mundane gear, craft scrolls, and then save for +4 con with wish spell)
Simulacrum - This spell is worded so vaguely that it is literally unusable at the table without the DM essentially re-writing the entire spell from the ground up.
So take this characters Tarrasque simulacrum for example. We know that it only has 15 HD and that its skills and feats were reduced to an appropriate amount for its HD. But then what?
The spell says "It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)." What does that even mean? Oh sure we can tell he isn't high enough level to cast wish, he probably doesn't have DR/ Epic anymore seeing as how he isn't epic level, and he is probably only Gargantuan size now as apposed to colossal.
But what about its carapace? Ya know the 30% chance to reflect spells back at the caster? Does that go away? Or how about regeneration? Trolls get that at a much lower level, but regeneration 40 is insane. So does it loose the regeneration? Is the amount of regeneration reduced? If so by how much? Or what about powerful leaper? It allows the Tarrasque to use strength when it jumps and it also grants a +24 bonus to acrobatics for jump checks. This is a racial bonus. He got this ability with his 1st HD. He was born with it. But, other creatures don't have such large skill bonuses at that level. So is the racial bonus decreased? Figuring out what to do with its Spines and Rush abilities, immunities, and frightful presence is just as convoluted and unclear.
So in conclusion, this character is riding around on a Tarrasque. I have no idea what the stats are for a 15 HD version of the Tarrasque, but I'm sure its pretty awesome :)
I had a funny thought on the master craftsman/craft arms and armor angle..
It is cheaper to just take leadership and get a heal/craft bot cleric.
Oh, another advantage of pure casters. Economy of action.
At low levels, martial types do just fine using things like cleaves and charges, but as they go up in level martial character have to full attack to do their max damage. This leaves them with a 5 foot step.
Casters meanwhile get more and more bang out of a standard action as their spells get stronger and stronger.
This leaves them a move action for repositioning. This lets casters do things like cast a spell them move into total cover, where an archer would have to give up damage to shoot on the move. Tumble away from a melee attacker then cast a spell, etc.
Melee characters do have issues with action economy -- this is true of any melee character though (just a reminder people martial =/= melee) however martial melee characters have got a lot of help on this recently, consider:
Mobile Fighter archtype
You lose your highest BAB attack. That is a significant chunk of damage. You are still doing less damage than you would do normal full attack.
Two weapon Fighter archtype
Gets 2 attacks when moving. They are still doing less damage than a full attack.
Beast totem Barbarian
I mentioned creatures with pounce as the exception. A melee druid also falls into this category. Still, opponents with pounce are fairly rare.
Monk of the Four Winds (who can move up to you, grapple and pin you in one round or if standing beside you already *not a smart place to be but still* can stun grapple and then pin you in the same round).
Spirited charge as always been around for mounted melee types.
Not until level 12. Also, grapple attacks still have to roll for miss chance against concealment. Mirror image and invisibility dropped in to say hi.
And now we have the new feat in the APG that lets you full attack in melee while your mount moves.
Also tumbling isn't nearly as easy as it once was as the check involves CMD.
Agreed, but with tons of skill points to burn what does the wizard really have to lose? Having a decent acrobatics skill gives you another option in a tight spot.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Dire Mongoose
So metamagic rods: The earliest you could get a metamagic rod of bouncing is 4th level. Surprisingly the persistent spell metamagic rod is cheaper than the bouncing spell. Why? Probably a typo since the persistent spell is at higher spell level cost than bouncing.Now you can't afford a bouncing metamagic rod and your headband until 6th level at the earliest (and that's going over the 1/2 wealth in one item line too). At which point you can affect your highest level spells. Persistent is available much sooner (probably part of a typo I maintain) at fourth level.
Yes, the bouncing/persistent rod costing is transposed and is an error.
Bouncing is a +1 level metamagic and should be priced at 3000/11000/24500.
Persistent is a +2 level metamagic and should be priced at 9000/32500/73000.
I would presume an official correction is forthcoming when the APG errata are completed, but even in the absence of such it's a simple and obvious error.
The pricing formula for metamagic rods is clear and unambiguous in the Core Rules and APG. To claim, "Well, that's the price in the table, so that's what it is. Woohoo, party time! What a bargain!" makes about as much sense as if a similar error had appeared in the Core Rules and a MMR of Extend was costed at 9000/32500/73000 and an MMR of Empower was 3000/11000/24500.
Arguing that you should use the obviously incorrect pricing for the two items is IMO just being obstinate.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
As for getting a spell cast. If the +5DC is so important, you can always pay an NPC to cast the spell for you. Getting a level 7 NPC cleric to cast holy smite costs 280 gold. +1 holy weapon = 18k gold. Crafting a +1 holy weapon and paying an NPC to cast holy smite = 9,280 gold. You still come out ahead.
They have to cast the spell every day you are working on it, so it's 18 days x 280 each day (assuming no issues with their availability to come and cast for you) = 5040 + 9000 (materials), so 14040. Still less than 18000, but not quite as good a deal.
Also, this is a great argument against playing with purely selfish players. Not a great argument against or for any class.QFT. IC and OOC it's not a brilliant idea. The party are a team, they should be backing each other up and combining their abilities to work to their strengths. The players are playing a social game - yes the idea is to have fun, but not at the expense of other players and this is what selfish players/characters ultimately do.Wait if I don't take a feat that benefits your character and not mine I am automatically a selfish/bad/horrible player? Teamwork has its place, but you cross the line when you are forcing other players to expend their permenant resourses purely for you benefit.
[sarcasm] What is next? I demand the fighter buy a +5 tower shield, and walk around in front of me as my personal shield bot in the name of "teamwork".
[/sarcasm]
Expecting me to take a feat for you and be your little craft bot is completely different from casting haste when it make sense to make the party fight better.Note, I never said I wouldn't take craft arms and armor. I was merely pointing out that you are asking the wizard to take a feat that is of almost no value to the wizard himself. That to me is the very definition of being at someone else's mercy. I might ask the wizard or cleric to take craft arms and armor, but I surely wouldn't be put out if they said no.
Apologies if I did not make this clear, the BOLDED TEXT is what I was agreeing with.
With what PB are you getting 18 Str, 16-18 Con, + Dex and Wis, keeping in mind that you can only dumpstat Cha, and maybe Int for extra points?
Because you need 27-34 just for Str and Con. Being MAD sucks, doesn't it?
Stuff dex, melee fighters don't need it. Wisdom? Knock 4 points off whatever you would allocate and take Iron Will when convenient. If the Wizard has enough points for high Con after blowing his Int to 20, so does the fighter evin if he has to shave a few points off strength to wisdom.
Just wanted to add they are a lot cheaper than golems, and they don't take any xp to make now.
They ought to take a look at this spell.
I briefly recommended on another thread that this spell be changed to something like 'You can create any creature of a CR up to your character level -2 (or -3 or whatever)' This removes the need for complex formulas at all. You would just keep everything it gets. The simulacrum would still retain the 24 hour period required to heal it, which is expensive (100 gp per 1 hp).
lots of points
Well remember that the treasure per encounter chart if followed with nothing being used up or sold would actually put you well over wealth by level -- so it is assumed that wealth (while it does fluctuate -- I'm not going to say I'm going to bother over a couple of k at higher levels *over 10 for example*) is going to be a back and forth with a game average of WbL.
I agree the crafting feats are a bit of a penalty except for one major way -- they give you control of your wealth. Now when we build here we generally take the items that work the best for our character build -- however it isn't assumed in the game that you'll just have access to anything you want if you have the cash -- indeed the rules for towns and what not shows that everything is not available in unlimited quantity and on demand (this is a large part of the reason I tend to stick to 'generic' gear like +5 plain weapons instead of specialty stuff as it will generally be more readily available than say a holy avenger, staff of power, or +5 keen, vicious, wounding weapons). With the crafting feats you get much more say in what magical gear you have available since you can actually make it yourself instead of just waiting until the GM allows you to find it (either in an adventure or for sale) -- this is part of the reason I tend to like craft rods -- they don't show up too often and for casters metamagic rods are great.
Now I agree with the general thought that most martial types do settle down into a single weapon -- in general if I'm not looking for the absolute bleeding edge (pun intended) of damage I'll not bother with the weapon focus tree, instead grabbing feats such as deadly aim, and power attack that I can use with whatever I find -- allowing weapon training to help cover the gaps in bonuses (or leap attack if playing a mobile fighter).
Any character that only focuses on melee without consideration for flight, movement speeds, or the advantages of ranged weapons really does deserve what he gets at times. For fighters I really suggest at least grabbing deadly aim, if not point blank shot and rapid shot, with a decent generic ranged weapon -- and making weapon training 2 be for bows.
With what PB are you getting 18 Str, 16-18 Con, + Dex and Wis, keeping in mind that you can only dumpstat Cha, and maybe Int for extra points?
Because you need 27-34 just for Str and Con. Being MAD sucks, doesn't it?
Hm... 20 point buy:
Strength 18 (17 points)
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10
Wis 12(2)
Cha 7
Now I pick... DWARF:
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 5
Oops I don't need 27~34 point buy -- I just need a single dump stat.
Also for a Dex of 18 at 10th level:
Same Dwarf at level 10:
Str 18 Dex 16(level adjustments) Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 5
Belt of Dex and Con +2
Str 18 Dex 18 Con 18 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 5
Why the belt? Because he uses ranged weapons, and likes more HP. Figuring favored class into skill points instead of HP with the tougness feat he's feeling good with 110 HP at level 10 and an AC honestly much more higher than Charender predicts.
Yes, the bouncing/persistent rod costing is transposed and is an error.
Bouncing is a +1 level metamagic and should be priced at 3000/11000/24500.
Persistent is a +2 level metamagic and should be priced at 9000/32500/73000...
...Arguing that you should use the obviously incorrect pricing for the two items is IMO just being obstinate.
Absolutely -- I just wanted to point out it was there and run with it so people didn't accuse me of "adjusting" it on my own as a homerule or some such.
Let me repeat that. A Fighter who would need around 50 PB to actually be playable still gets the ever loving crap beat out of him in melee as a matter of course.
Not even close to being the truth. I can build an effective fighter with 15 point buy with ease. When I say "with ease" I really do mean that it is incredibly easy. It's not hard to get high enough attack bonuses, number of attacks, damage bonuses, and even skill bonuses that will allow the fighter to remain competitive. The only real issue is healing but that's what the party and/or gear is for.
Here is a non-magically geared two-weapon fighter, 15 point-buy.
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTER CR 19
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Weapon Master) 20
N Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +10; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20. . (+9 armor, +1 shield, +1 Dex)
hp 204 (20d10+60)
Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +10
DR 3/—
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +5 Defending, Wounding Adamantine Shortsword +30/+25/+20/+15 (1d6+29/17-20/x3) and
. . +5 Dueling, Wounding Adamantine Shortsword +30/+25/+20/+15 (1d6+29/17-20/x3) and
. . Adamantine Shortsword +24/+19/+14 (1d6+24/17-20/x3) and
. . Adamantine Shortsword +24/+19/+14/+9 (1d6+24/17-20/x3) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +18/+13/+8/+3 (1d3+15/20/x2) and
. . Shield, Heavy Steel +17/+12/+7/+2 (1d4+15/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +18/+13/+8/+3 (1d3+15/20/x2)
Special Attacks Critical Specialist: Shortsword, Deadly Critical: Shortsword (3/day), Reliable Strike: Shortsword (4/day), Unstoppable Strike: Shortsword, Weapon Training +5: Shortsword
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +23; CMD 37 (42 vs. Disarm42 vs. Sunder)
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Double Slice, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus: Shortsword, Greater Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, Improved Critical: Shortsword, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Penetrating Strike, Piranha Strike +12/-6, Toughness +20, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Shortsword, Weapon Specialization: Shortsword
Traits Legacy of Sand, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb -2, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Intimidate +24, Profession: Soldier +24, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Swim -2
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day), Weapon Guard +5: Shortsword (Ex), Weapon Mastery: Shortsword (Ex)
Combat Gear Dwarven Plate, Adamantine Shortsword, Adamantine Shortsword;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Deadly Critical: Shortsword (3/day) (Ex) - 0/3
Improved Iron Will (1/day) - 0/1
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
Reliable Strike: Shortsword (4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Critical Specialist: Shortsword (Ex) Increase the save DC of any critical hit effects by +4 for your chosen weapon.
Damage Reduction (3/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Critical: Shortsword (3/day) (Ex) Increase the critical damage multiplier of your chosen weapon
Greater Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 10 points of DR/? or 5 points of DR/–.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 5 points of DR/?.
Piranha Strike +12/-6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Reliable Strike: Shortsword (4/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Two-weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Two-weapon Rend You deal an additional 1d10+(STR*1.5) if you hit with both of your weapons.
Unstoppable Strike: Shortsword (Ex) Standard action: a single attack with your chosen weapon is a touch attack that ignored DR or hardness.
Weapon Guard +5: Shortsword (Ex) +5 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Mastery: Shortsword (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training +5: Shortsword (Ex) +5 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
Here he is all magically geared up:
TWO-WEAPON FIGHTER CR 19
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Weapon Master) 20
NN Large Humanoid (Orc)
Init +16; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +4
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 36, touch 15, flat-footed 35. . (+14 armor, +7 shield, +1 Dex, -1 size, +5 deflection)
hp 264 (20d10+120)
Fort +23, Ref +18, Will +18
SR 22
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +5 Defending, Wounding Adamantine Shortsword +30/+25/+20/+15 (1d8+33/17-20/x3) and
. . +5 Dueling, Wounding Adamantine Shortsword +30/+25/+20 (1d8+33/17-20/x3) and
. . Adamantine Shortsword +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d8+28/17-20/x3) and
. . Adamantine Shortsword +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d8+28/17-20/x3) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d4+19/20/x2) and
. . Shield, Heavy Steel +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d6+19/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d4+19/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks Critical Specialist: Shortsword, Deadly Critical: Shortsword (3/day), Reliable Strike: Shortsword (4/day), Unstoppable Strike: Shortsword, Weapon Training +5: Shortsword
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16/24, Dex 19/23, Con 14/20, Int 10/14, Wis 12/16, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +28; CMD 49 (56 vs. Disarm51 vs. Feint54 vs. Sunder)
Feats Bleeding Critical, Critical Focus, Double Slice, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus: Shortsword, Greater Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, Improved Critical: Shortsword, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Penetrating Strike, Piranha Strike +12/-6, Toughness +20, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Shortsword, Weapon Specialization: Shortsword
Traits Legacy of Sand, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +2, Appraise +3, Bluff +0, Climb +3, Diplomacy +0, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +2, Fly +20, Heal +4, Intimidate +25, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +26, Perception +4, Profession: Soldier +27, Ride +2, Sense Motive +4, Stealth -2, Survival +4, Swim +3
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day), Ring of Splendid Security, Weapon Guard +5: Shortsword (Ex), Weapon Mastery: Shortsword (Ex)
Combat Gear Dwarven Plate, +5 Fortification, Heavy Adamantine Full Plate, +5 Animated Mithral Shield, Heavy Steel, +5 Dueling, Wounding Adamantine Shortsword, +5 Defending, Wounding Adamantine Shortsword, Adamantine Shortsword, Adamantine Shortsword; Other Gear Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Handy Haversack (9 @ 64.5 lbs), Headband of Mental Prowess, INT & WIS +4: Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Fly, Periapt of Wound Closure, Ring of Splendid Security, Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone), Wings of Flying
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Deadly Critical: Shortsword (3/day) (Ex) - 0/3
Improved Iron Will (1/day) - 0/1
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
Reliable Strike: Shortsword (4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bleeding Critical Critical Hits deal 2d6 bleed damage.
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Critical Specialist: Shortsword (Ex) Increase the save DC of any critical hit effects by +4 for your chosen weapon.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Critical: Shortsword (3/day) (Ex) Increase the critical damage multiplier of your chosen weapon
Greater Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 10 points of DR/? or 5 points of DR/–.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Will save.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 5 points of DR/?.
Piranha Strike +12/-6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage with light weapons.
Reliable Strike: Shortsword (4/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Ring of Splendid Security
Spell Resistance (22) You have Spell Resistance.
Two-weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Two-weapon Rend You deal an additional 1d10+(STR*1.5) if you hit with both of your weapons.
Unstoppable Strike: Shortsword (Ex) Standard action: a single attack with your chosen weapon is a touch attack that ignored DR or hardness.
Weapon Guard +5: Shortsword (Ex) +5 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Mastery: Shortsword (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training +5: Shortsword (Ex) +5 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
He can hold his own fairly well against most of the Bestiary. Even the CR 20 creatures will need to think twice against him.
Balor:
AC 36, hp 370 (20d10+260): My DPR is a mere 151. While that may not seem like much, it is 41% of the balor's hit points in a single round. In addition, each attack deals 2d6 bleed. Even if only 3 of them hit, that is still 6d6 bleed damage each round. The wounding will take away 3 Con each round on average essentially robbing him of another 51 hit points every round. This brings me up to 55% of the balor's hit points in a single round. That's nothing to laugh at and should get his attention real fast.
Melee +1 vorpal unholy longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 (2d6+13), +1 vorpal flaming whip +30/+25/+20 (1d4+7 plus 1d6 fire and entangle) or 2 slams +31 (1d10+12): My AC is 37 and my hit points are 264. The balor, assuming he is going to try to stay in melee with me, his DPR is 8. I am assuming the balor is power attacking so that he can deal the most damage possible.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th)
unholy aura (DC 26): Effects accounted for, save irrelevant
will—dominate monster (DC 27): I need a 9 or better but I can roll twice 1/day. Also, if he's using this then he isn't attacking others so it's not a loss if I am dominated
telekinesis (DC 23): I need a 6 or better to save
1/day—blasphemy (DC 25): I need a 7 or better
fire storm (DC 26): I need a 7 or better to save
implosion (DC 27): I need a 4 or better to save
Ancient Gold Dragon (directly from Bestiary):
Aura fire, frightful presence (300 ft., DC 30): 3.5 points of damage to me each round, the Frightful Presence does need a 12 or better from me. At worst, I suffer a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
AC 39, hp 377: My DPR is 137. That's a paltry 36% of his hit points. With the bleed and wounding, another 51 points each round is going to be dealt as well. This is 50% of the dragon's hit points. These numbers will change if the dragon manages to have his defenses up. Depending on if the party is dispelling those defenses or not. I know that my party would, because they have against a dragon very recently. Note that these numbers will be slightly smaller if I failed to save against the frightful presence.
Melee bite +36 (4d6+21/19–20), 2 claws +36 (2d8+14/19–20), 2 wings +34 (2d6+7/19–20), tail +34 (2d8+21/19–20): DPR is 145. That's going to leave a mark that's for sure.
breath weapon (120-ft. cone, DC 31, 20d10 fire): I will need a 13 or better to avoid 110 damage.
Spell-Like Abilities
sunburst (DC 25): I need a 7 or better to avoid the effects.
Pit Fiend
Aura fear (20 ft., DC 23): I need a 5 or better, not an issue.
AC 38, hp 350; regeneration 5: My DPR is 64 unless you also add in the +51 from bleed and Constitution damage which brings it up to 115. I believe that 33% of the creature's hit points in a single round is pretty good.
Melee 2 claws +32 (2d8+13), 2 wings +30 (2d6+6), bite +32 (4d6+13 plus poison and disease), tail slap +30 (2d8+6 plus grab): His DPR is 47. I think I can handle that.
Special Attacks constrict 2d8+19: Assuming he can grapple me, this could be a problem. He does need to only roll an 11 to grapple me.
Spell-Like Abilities:
will—blasphemy (DC 25): 7 or better
fireball (DC 21): 3 or better
mass hold monster (DC 27): 9 or better
persistent image (DC 23): 5 or better
trap the soul (DC 26): 9 or better. 11 or better if he knows my name
I skipped Wish because the effects are too variable to account for. It's also a DM fiat option that will change the outcome of the battle if so desired.
I will skip the linnorm since you already think it's not a CR 20 anyway. That and I think it's been shown that the fighter can handle himself in combat just fine with far less than 50 point buy. Note that this is certainly not the most optimized fighter. It was actually something that I was told could not be built by someone else. I figured I would kill two birds with one stone. He is in a party of four. I assumed a cleric, wizard, and rogue would be there too but did not account for any additional help such as flanking bonuses, aid another, and spells that could really change his actions. Even haste combined with flanking will have a big impact.
|
With what PB are you getting 18 Str, 16-18 Con, + Dex and Wis, keeping in mind that you can only dumpstat Cha, and maybe Int for extra points?
Because you need 27-34 just for Str and Con. Being MAD sucks, doesn't it?
Hm... 20 point buy:
Strength 18 (17 points)
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10
Wis 12(2)
Cha 7Now I pick... DWARF:
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 5
Oops I don't need 27~34 point buy -- I just need a single dump stat.
Uh did you by chance mean 25 point buy because that seems to be what the score costs add up to.
Uh did you by chance mean 25 point buy because that seems to be what the score costs add up to.With what PB are you getting 18 Str, 16-18 Con, + Dex and Wis, keeping in mind that you can only dumpstat Cha, and maybe Int for extra points?
Because you need 27-34 just for Str and Con. Being MAD sucks, doesn't it?
Hm... 20 point buy:
Strength 18 (17 points)
Dex 14 (5)
Con 14 (5)
Int 10
Wis 12(2)
Cha 7Now I pick... DWARF:
Str 18 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 5
Oops I don't need 27~34 point buy -- I just need a single dump stat.
Yes, but a 20 Str isn't necessary. I think he just reverse engineered his own numbers wrong. Paying 10 for a 16 str and getting +2 for 18 str at level 1 is acceptable, and is 10 less points. -5 he went over, he can buy his con up to 16 as well. If he wanted to tank his Int he could buy his wis up to a 14.