There are always spells in each category for just about anything -- even undead can be Glitterdusted and Disintegrated if you're of a mind to do it.
You are welcome to join in my little "challenge" too; put together the spell list for a 5th level SoS/SoD caster (we'll assume 22 casting stat). This is the assumed setting:
Say the days trip is that you're going to dive into the mountainous lair of an evil orc cleric and his pet bear that has enslaved, among other things, a goblin tribe. Your goal is to rescue a paladin and stop the constant raids on the trade routs, as well as find out if the cleric is allied with a certain demon you've encountered before. This is a real example from an adventure I DM'ed not so long ago.
The number of fights is a little above average - there are 5 of them, I give you that, so it's maybe a little tougher for the wizard than it usually is. We'll assume the party otherwise is a standard setup; they won't be very active during this example but are there in both cases. For balance's sake we'll assume it's a fighter, a bard and a defensive-minded cleric.
You are welcome to join in my little "challenge" too; put together the spell list for a 5th level SoS/SoD caster (we'll assume 22 casting stat). This is the assumed setting:
Say the days trip is that you're going to dive into the mountainous lair of an evil orc cleric and his pet bear that has enslaved, among other things, a goblin tribe. Your goal is to rescue a paladin and stop the constant raids on the trade routs, as well as find out if the cleric is allied with a certain demon you've encountered before. This is a real example from an adventure I DM'ed not so long ago.
Ultimately there's still a lot of unknowns here which wouldn't be in a real campaign -- what exactly is the rest of my party, is there a hole in terms of skills/abilities/etc. I need to cover, what's my magic item loadout, etc.
I sort of assume your 22 casting stat includes a +2 stat bump item, and personally I'd probably forgo it for multiple lesser rods of Persistant Spell -- but I'll stick with your parameters.
5th level specialist wizard with 22 casting stat gives:
0: 4
1: 5 + 1
2: 4 + 1
3: 2 + 1
Although the scouting power of a familiar could be useful in this particular situation, I've probably picked bonded object. That'll be whatever spell I need it to be; very possibly it'll be whatever utility spell I happen to need, freeing my slots up for a more offensive loadout.
My AC will be atrocious and my saves won't be great, although my HP won't be all that bad. I'm going to assume a competent enough party to mostly keep me alive -- if I don't have that, I'm picking a different load of spells and that's again a different situation which I should have a pretty good read on by level 5. Equally, because I do have a fighter/cleric/etc. I'm going to favor damage even less than I normally would, but that too is adjustable if not the case. I'm also going to assume I'm a good character and not inclined to abandon my group to save myself. I'm not strictly dependent on any of these things, but if they're different my choices change too.
Generally speaking I'm pretty fond of the Divination (Foresight) specialization but for the purposes of this exercise let's give Conjuration (Teleportation) a whirl -- I'm sure I can find something interesting to do with the ability to Dimension Door as a non-provoking swift action 9 times a day, even if it's only 10 feet. For this character I'll have Evocation and Necromancy as my opposition schools.
I'll prepare something like:
0: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Ghost Sound
1: Grease (x2), Color Spray, Hydraulic Push, Obscuring Mist, Charm Person
2: Create Pit, Web, Glitterdust (x2), Hideous Laughter
3: Slow (x2), Stinking Cloud
Key to supplementing this is some degree of having spells where I don't especially care about the caster level or save DC through scrolls or maybe wands. Stone Call is an excellent pick for this, for example -- it's not subject to SR, it doesn't get a save, and I don't care about its caster level a whole lot. So are spells that I need sometimes, but at least at that level, not likely every day, such as See Invisibility and Protection From Evil (which mostly is a last ditch anti-compulsion measure for this character given his party.)
Oh, just so you know, I'm in the camp of "at high levels, it's harder to create challenging encounters for spellcaster heavy groups, but at lower levels spellcasters are fairly well balanced (and at really low levels, I'd prefer a fighter-heavy group any day for combats)".
Ultimately there's still a lot of unknowns here which wouldn't be in a real campaign -- what exactly is the rest of my party, is there a hole in terms of skills/abilities/etc. I need to cover, what's my magic item loadout, etc.
This will only account for combat encounters; the other characters will take you through the rest of the adventure. You only need to cover combat so it should be extra easy. On the other hand, as you say, not having been in the campaign before makes it extra hard. We'll always have to take an experiment such as this with a pinch of salt (is it called that in english?) and see it for what it is: A constructed scenario that can at best give a good estimate but isn't like real gameplay experience.
I sort of assume your 22 casting stat includes a +2 stat bump item, and personally I'd probably forgo it for multiple lesser rods of Persistant Spell -- but I'll stick with your parameters.
It's fine either way :)
My AC will be atrocious and my saves won't be great, although my HP won't be all that bad. I'm going to assume a competent enough party to mostly keep me alive -- if I don't have that, I'm picking a different load of spells and that's again a different situation which I should have a pretty good read on by level 5.
Of course. You can be however offensive you wish. And damage or SoD is wholly up to you; there may be situations where a fireball would be good and there may not be. You know you're up against a goblin tribe among other things, and at level 5, you can safely assume that you'll encounter more than one enemy at a time most of the time.
This is mostly like a "DPR" test, even though damage isn't as relevant. It's mostly the killing power we want to test, not the survivability. I'll assume the other characters will keep you out of melee, but ranged opponents might target you to some degree. That said, if you go with a 8 con and 8 dex, and have a great killing rate, we will know just that; that the wizard can kick serious but offensively if he's a glass cannon. If you can do it effectively while having decent survivability, that's just a bonus.
I'll prepare something like:
0: Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Ghost Sound
1: Grease (x2), Color Spray, Hydraulic Push, Obscuring Mist, Charm Person
2: Create Pit, Web, Glitterdust (x2), Hideous Laughter
3: Slow (x2), Stinking Cloud
Looking good.
Key to supplementing this is some degree of having spells where I don't especially care about the caster level or save DC through scrolls or maybe wands. Stone Call is an excellent pick for this, for example -- it's not subject to SR, it doesn't get a save, and I don't care about its caster level a whole lot.
Just specify it; if it's well within you're WBL, you'll get it. Oh, and now checking up on stone call, damn it's nicer than I remember! For some reason, I was under the impression that it was centered upon you, but with medium distance that's quite nice! A wand of stone call seems a little heavy though, as it eats nearly half your WBL on a consumable. A scroll or two is fine though.
Any special feats I should be aware of, especially any spell focuses? What are your knowledge skills? I'll be pretty vague in my description of opponents unless a successful knowledge check is done (that's the best way to avoid metagaming, concsious or unconscious, it seems).
EDIT: We'll have to wait for CoD to get a chance to respond too. Also, what's your race?
A 50% chance of success on a spell that targets multiple enemies (or even one really tough one) is pretty awesome.
If I'm fighting 4 enemies and I can take out 2 in one round...from range I consider that pretty powerful. Not to mention there might even be a partial effect no matter what, or I might get more than two (or less than two, but in that case, oh well, even fighters waste rounds by missing).
If I can make an encounter with one really tough enemy into a coinflip on that first round, that's also very, very powerful.
I just don't see how these spells are being portrayed as "not as good as people think"....
They are good, no mistake, but they are not the be-all and end-all, especially if you have an all-caster party. Taking out 50% of the opposition is really neat, even if you are only delaying them a round or two, but at the end of the day you are reliant of the luck of the dice and you still have the other 50% to deal with. You also run into these being spells that there are immunities too. What if your target is immune to the spell? That's a 0% chance of success.
Actually most martial characters can be sure that a single opponent will drop in the second round -- solo if it takes them that long. Also with AC's that mean the monster will hardly ever hit -- with save throw bonuses that are -- at miminum -- tied with the SoD caster.
Finally you have 6 maximum (for a wizard) of your highest level spell slots. Usually you have a total of 3~4 -- from which your other spells must also be drawn. Once those highest slots are empty your chances of success drops significantly.
However the martialist doesn't run out of swings.
So...
Why not let the martialist drop things in one or two rounds and instead focus on the things he can't do better, faster, and easier than the caster can?
99% chances are nice -- unfortunately that's the percentage chance the martial character will drop the monster before the wizard gets done wasting spells.
This. Debuffing the enemy or wearing them down is definitely more of a guaranteed winner.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Caineach (and others):
Summoning rocks. I can understand how it looks underpowered if you don't assume Augment Summons, and also if you look first at Summon 1 or 2: the summons only really take off with Summon 3 for an arane caster. However, here are some examples to consider:
Summon Monster 1: augmented celestial eagle. You decide at the end of casting what you'll summon and where, so you summon this flanking with your fighter or rogue. It smites as a swift action - this lasts until it or the foe dies - and full attacks at +5/+5/+5 for 1d4+2, 1d4+3 if the foe is evil. That offers 3d4+6/3d4+9 each round. The eagle also flies, fast. This is the worst summons you'll ever conjure up.
Summon Monster 2: augmented celestial giant spider. It appears 5' beyond foe's reach, swift-smites, and throws a web, +5 ranged touch. This allows a save only for being rendered immobile; the -2 attack, -4 Dex, half speed, no run or charge and Concentration to cast are all saveless. Next round, the spider moves in and bites at +2 (+4 with flanking), for 1d6+3 (1d6+6 vs evil) and poison, base DC16, 1d2 Str - base, because a higher levels you're summoning 1d3 or 2-5 of these, and once one save is failed, the DC starts to rise fast. This is the second worst summons you'll ever conjure - we're still below the levels where these spells really take wing.
Summon Monster 3: now we're getting there, with the augmented celestial aurochs. It appears, swift-smites, and tramples as a full round action. All medium or smaller creatures in its 40' path take 2d6+12, 2d6+15 to a smite target. There's a save for half (DC19r), but foes only get to try for it if they forgo their AoO, which are at -4. 2d6+12 is a little short of 6d6, and the aurochs can do it to a select 40' area each round it lasts. Later, you can summon 3 aurochs, and the trample DC goes up to 21.
Summon Monster 4: augmented celestial lion. It appears, swift-smites, and pounces. Five attacks, each at +9 with charge, (+11 with flank), for 1d8+7+grab medium once, and four 1d4+7s. A smite target takes 1d8+12 and four 1d4+12s. The evil villain is taking an average of 74.5 damage if the pounce fully connects, and he may be grappled to boot, at which point the fighter or rogue finishes him. The lion probably attacks again next round.
...and so on.
Now here's the thing: the damage these summons inflict is punchy, but secondary. What's primary is their role in soaking up damage. The lion has 42 hp: each of them takes a round or two to kill, in which that foe isn't doing 42 damage to your fighter or rogue. You can think of that lion at 42 temporary hit points for the rogue...42 hp which also happens to be doing a lot of damage each round too.
The tertiary role of the summons is battlefield control. The spider is good at this, but even the lion is taking up space between you and the fight. On top of these three roles - damage-soak, damage-dealer and control - there are the spell-like abilities to consider later, but as I hope these examples illustrate, those are just gravy. Summons are good, good spells without any SLAs attached.
Happy hunting,
the Porp.
You should run some PBP PvP battles. Someone on the "casters rule all" side should post a caster build, any level. Someone else who feels they want to challenge that caster's "rule all" abilities should create a melee type of the same level and post it. When the battle starts the caster will have to post a list of spells memorized (or spells known if it's a spontaneous caster). Find some neutral way of deciding the setting, anything from an arena to a dark alley way, whatever. You should start combat un-buffed, although you might reasonably be allowed to have any defensive buffs that last all day, or the majority of the day, but that will cut into the caster's spells per day for the combat, unless they are item based buffs.
25 point buy, Human Sorcerer, Fey Bloodline, 5th level.
STR 8 (-2), DEX 15+1 (7), CON 12 (2), INT 12 (2), WIS 9 (-1), CHA 18+2 (17)
Racial bonus in CHA, 4th level stat boost in DEX
Traits: Reactive, Campaign Specific (ideally to give Stealth)
Feats: Spell Focus (ench), Improved Init; Greater Spell Focus (Ench); Persistent Spell.
Init mod: +9. AC ~18-22 (+3 Dex, +1 Ring, Mage Armor, Shield if there's time). HP of ~27.
Items: +1 Ring of Protection (1K), +2 CHA item (4K), Misc Potions, Wand of Silence.
Spells:
0: daze, mage hand, resistance, message, ghost sound, faerie fire
1: hypnosis, mage armor, magic missile, [entangle], grease, [vanish], [shield]
2: create pit, acid arrow, [hideous laughter]
[spells in brackets are immutable - either bloodline spells or gained from the Human favored class ability.]
8/day 1st, 6/day 2nd. Assume 2 of those 1st level spells will be used to keep Mage Armor up and running.
Assuming I win Init (reasonable assumption), hideous laughter is used on the BBEG, or persistent hypnosis on HenchMooks. Will save DC is 10+2+2+6+2=22 for hideous laughter, 21 for HenchMooks. If we've surprised them, Hypnosis is wonderful for controlling a number of HenchMooks.
Let's assume the BBEG is a 6th level cleric, with a 20 WIS. Will Save is +5 (Base) +5 (Stat) and +2 (Spell). Net of +12. That means that on a 9 or lower he fails. That's about our worst case.
If our BBEG is a 6th level fighter (likelier), he's got a +2 (base), +1 (Stat), +2 (Spell). Or +5. He fails on a 16 or lower, about 80% of the time.
Henchmooks: It's in combat, so the will save DC is 19, not 21. Assume they're at level 3 with poor Will saves: +1 (Base) +1 (Stat) - they fail 85% of the time on the first time. The 15% who save get to roll it again, or about 97% success chances.
If I have a surprise round (which is why I have the Vanish spell and the Ludicrous Initiative Modifier), and it's a non-combat situation, the mooks fail on anything but a 20 to avoid the hypnosis.
In the event that I get close enough to touch someone, I have Laughing Touch as a no-save, lose your next round's action on a touch attack 9x/day.
At level 1 and 2, when the character just has sleep (swapped out for hypnosis at 4th level), he has a DC 19 sleep spell, which is largely a "Sorcerer casts sleep, party kills sleeping opponents."
Levels 3 and 4 tend to suck. Sleep becomes a single target spell rather than "end fight".
25 point buy, Human Sorcerer, Fey Bloodline, 5th level.
I don't know if you're responding to my experiment or just posting an example build, but if you are, you're ten points over the point buy.
You should run some PBP PvP battles. Someone on the "casters rule all" side should post a caster build, any level.
Those kind of tests are completely worthless to see the value of a class. First off, both will be optimized against each other, and secondly, a caster's main weakness is a far more limited resource to spend and in a single fight, that won't ever be noticed.
Summon Monster 4: augmented celestial lion. It appears, swift-smites, and pounces. Five attacks, each at +9 with charge, (+11 with flank), for 1d8+7+grab medium once, and four...
That's a solid one, although I'll point out that the extra two claw attacks from the rake require that you start the turn grappling and therefore aren't available on the pounce turn. Still, three attacks at +9 isn't bad by any means at the level.
Recently, I was using the augmented celestial rhino as well for SM4. Summon, swift-smite, and normally it attacks at +10 for 2d6+17. If you give it a little space to get moving in, it powerfully charges for 4d6+20. It's a great minion-clearer, and it's big enough and tough enough (DR/5 on top of that 53 hp) that it's able to soak up a good amount of damage before it goes down.
(And if using it as a DM, you can powerfully charge back and forth between the martialists and the casters, assuming the latter decided they didn't want to be adjacent to the massive horned monstrosity that just one-shotted the rogue into unconsciousness. Not that I've done that as DM, or anything... *wicked grin*)
You should run some PBP PvP battles. Someone on the "casters rule all" side should post a caster build, any level.
You wanna see the ultimate PBP PvP battle between two epic spellcasters? Then check THIS out:
A wand of stone call seems a little heavy though, as it eats nearly half your WBL on a consumable.
Well, it wouldn't necessarily be a 50 charge wand. 10 is probably plenty.
It bears mentioning that what you consider a SoS/SoD spell and I do might vary; for example, against most melee enemies I think Slow is a great one even though its victims are still technically free to move and attack.
Let's be a little different and roll with half-orc for a race, though I usually pick human just because, hey extra feat.
A wand of stone call seems a little heavy though, as it eats nearly half your WBL on a consumable.
Well, it wouldn't necessarily be a 50 charge wand. 10 is probably plenty.
However, you can't buy or craft those RAW. Who'd buy a scroll for 150gp when you can buy a 1 charge wand for 90gp, that doesn't even require v/s components and can be used by anyone with the right spell list no matter the level?
Also, I'd need your perception and initiative modifiers.
EDIT: On slow, yeah, it's a good SoS, but requires more casting or combat afterwards; it doesn't neutralize opponents, though it hinders them. Some more than others. Against a ranged attacker with only one attack or against casters, it isn't really a big deal, but against meleers or full attackers it is.
You should run some PBP PvP battles. Someone on the "casters rule all" side should post a caster build, any level. Someone else who feels they want to challenge that caster's "rule all" abilities should create a melee type of the same level and post it. When the battle starts the caster will have to post a list of spells memorized (or spells known if it's a spontaneous caster). Find some neutral way of deciding the setting, anything from an arena to a dark alley way, whatever. You should start combat un-buffed, although you might reasonably be allowed to have any defensive buffs that last all day, or the majority of the day, but that will cut into the caster's spells per day for the combat, unless they are item based buffs.
One-on-one fights don't answer anything, they are entirely artificial, it's party vs encounter that is telling.
Those kind of tests are completely worthless to see the value of a class.
Not really, it would be quite entertaining to watch. Besides, there are several people who claim that melee characters can't hold up against casters.
First off, both will be optimized against each other,
Obviously.
and secondly, a caster's main weakness is a far more limited resource to spend and in a single fight, that won't ever be noticed.
Obviously casters run out of juice if they fight for too long or have too many fights in the day. That's not to say they would run out of juice quickly, but eventually it would happen. Anyway this was more a suggestion to address the melee vs. caster claims that people have been making.
A wand of stone call seems a little heavy though, as it eats nearly half your WBL on a consumable.
Well, it wouldn't necessarily be a 50 charge wand. 10 is probably plenty.
It bears mentioning that what you consider a SoS/SoD spell and I do might vary; for example, against most melee enemies I think Slow is a great one even though its victims are still technically free to move and attack.
Let's be a little different and roll with half-orc for a race, though I usually pick human just because, hey extra feat.
I like half orc for wizards, especially with the APG around.
Ferocity is a quick drop for the sacred tattoos (to get the luck bonus to saves), and having darkvision is very nice no matter what you are doing. I also like the scent feat for half orcs since it gives you another means to detect when something might be about to happen.
However if the sacred tattoos aren't your thing, plagueborn shores up a weak fortitude save, and rock climber can be very useful at low~mid levels (acrobatics bonus is always nice, and climb is semi-useful until flight is a regular thing). Scavenger is another one I like for the perception/appraise bonus.
You should run some PBP PvP battles. Someone on the "casters rule all" side should post a caster build, any level. Someone else who feels they want to challenge that caster's "rule all" abilities should create a melee type of the same level and post it. When the battle starts the caster will have to post a list of spells memorized (or spells known if it's a spontaneous caster). Find some neutral way of deciding the setting, anything from an arena to a dark alley way, whatever. You should start combat un-buffed, although you might reasonably be allowed to have any defensive buffs that last all day, or the majority of the day, but that will cut into the caster's spells per day for the combat, unless they are item based buffs.One-on-one fights don't answer anything, they are entirely artificial, it's party vs encounter that is telling.
Then how about a party of casters vs. a party of melee.
Respond to what? You're going to have to indicate a specific post.EDIT: We'll have to wait for CoD to get a chance to respond too. Also, what's your race?
If you want to join this experiment with a SoD caster of your own. Here's the original post
|
Summon Monster 4: augmented celestial lion. It appears, swift-smites, and pounces. Five attacks, each at +9 with charge, (+11 with flank), for 1d8+7+grab medium once, and four...That's a solid one, although I'll point out that the extra two claw attacks from the rake require that you start the turn grappling and therefore aren't available on the pounce turn. Still, three attacks at +9 isn't bad by any means at the level.
Pounce (Ex) When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).
source: PRD
...I know people around here have terrible reading comprehension skills, but at least try.It goes like this:
Caster 1 casts save or lose.
Did it work?
If yes, stop casting save or loses.
If no, cast save or lose.Then caster 2 gets a turn, and you repeat this until it sticks. The worst case scenario in the situation I described is that each caster uses a single spell. But there's only a 1/81 chance that is required.
And you assume that these casters with Con 16 Casting stat 20 are going to get to act before the monster(s), and not only one of them, but all? In a 15 point buy, with that con/caststat, you're looking at (at best) +4 initiative ever WITH the feat. And that is taking a -2 penalty on all other stats, which means your casters themselves will be very weak against other casters which are more balanced stat-wise.
What if it's more like 1-st turn - the drow wizard with +7 initiative and superior stealth due to invis and natural affinity for such things starts by casting Grease. With a DC of as little as 15, he'll still have an average of 3 of you rolling on the floor (as you have +0 ref save, all of you, and some might even have negative acrobatics due to armor, and that assumes a cha 7 cleric). And he's a CR 1/2 encounter! Yeah, there's a large chance that one of your character gets to act before his, but it's in no way guaranteed and not that likely that two of your characters get to. And even if one does, it's not guaranteed that he has the right spell for the occacion or that it will work even if he does.
As for level 5, the chances are "very high". Spells are broad. Stinking Cloud. Slow. Glitterdust. Web. All of these end fights. Anything you fight will be weak to at least one of them. You have 4 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd level spells. Each.
So stat up what spells you want to bring for the adventure. Time and time again saying "you always have the right spell, casters are the only worthwhile chars" while at the same time refusing to actually show what spells you would bring to a certain adventure (with plenty of clues as to what you will meet!) seems to imply that this is purely theoretical and won't work in a real game.
You should run some PBP PvP battles. Someone on the "casters rule all" side should post a caster build, any level.You wanna see the ultimate PBP PvP battle between two epic spellcasters? Then check THIS out:
This was excellent.
As for level 5, the chances are "very high". Spells are broad. Stinking Cloud. Slow. Glitterdust. Web. All of these end fights.
These spells do not end fights. They make it easier to end the fight -- but by themselves they do not end the enemy. Glitterdust gives a save throw every round -- slow doesn't prevent attacks (or charges) but does make it easier to stay away and take less damage. Stinking cloud is the best you have up there and it still gives the enemy total concealment though it does offer great range, repeating effect, and a large number of targets -- it still fails to to actually end the fight. Once the target gets out of the cloud you have 1d4+1 rounds to actually finish him or all you have done is delay.
So how are you going to finish him once you inconvience him?
That's the point wizards fall down -- especially at low levels.
Caineach (and others):
Caineach (and others):Summoning rocks. I can understand how it looks underpowered if you don't assume Augment Summons, and also if you look first at Summon 1 or 2: the summons only really take off with Summon 3 for an arane caster. However, here are some examples to consider:
Summon Monster 1: augmented celestial eagle. You decide at the end of casting what you'll summon and where, so you summon this flanking with your fighter or rogue. It smites as a swift action - this lasts until it or the foe dies - and full attacks at +5/+5/+5 for 1d4+2, 1d4+3 if the foe is evil. That offers 3d4+6/3d4+9 each round. The eagle also flies, fast. This is the worst summons you'll ever conjure up.
Unless you are a conjurer, this will take a full round to cast and last for 1-2. With +5, its not terrible, but the damage is pretty much ignorable. Flanking bonus is all it is really worth, which is easy enough to get without it. IME, your better off with a magic missile for guaranteed damage without a delay, color spray for entirely removing the threat, or a utility spell and attacking with your crossbow.
With a whopping DC12 save vs entangle, give me a standard action DC17 web spell any day. At this point, the lowest enemies will have greater than 50/50 against this. The +6 (your forgetting augment summoning) hit bonus wont hit the monsters at this level with any reliability, about 25%. The poison DC is only 14, not 16, which is only about a 25% chance to give the person a -1 to hit and damage.
Summon Monster 2: augmented celestial giant spider. It appears 5' beyond foe's reach, swift-smites, and throws a web, +5 ranged touch. This allows a save only for being rendered immobile; the -2 attack, -4 Dex, half speed, no run or charge and Concentration to cast are all saveless. Next round, the spider moves in and bites at +2 (+4 with flanking), for 1d6+3 (1d6+6 vs evil) and poison, base DC16, 1d2 Str - base, because a higher levels you're summoning 1d3 or 2-5 of these, and once one save is failed, the DC starts to rise fast. This is the second worst summons you'll ever conjure - we're still below the levels where these spells really take wing.
Summon Monster 3: now we're getting there, with the augmented celestial aurochs. It appears, swift-smites, and tramples as a full round action. All medium or smaller creatures in its 40' path take 2d6+12, 2d6+15 to a smite target. There's a save for half (DC19r), but foes only get to try for it if they forgo their AoO, which are at -4. 2d6+12 is a little short of 6d6, and the aurochs can do it to a select 40' area each round it lasts. Later, you can summon 3 aurochs, and the trample DC goes up to 21.
Not bad. It may get in a trample against a foe before it dies to the AoO since it has pretty much no HP or ACs. 25 HP, AC17(after the -4) vs a lvl 5 opponent, its pretty much a tasty snack. Situational, but I've seen worse. Rather a fireball for damage though, since it will average more and be more reliable.
Summon Monster 4: augmented celestial lion. It appears, swift-smites, and pounces. Five attacks, each at +9 with charge, (+11 with flank), for 1d8+7+grab medium once, and four 1d4+7s. A smite target takes 1d8+12 and four 1d4+12s. The evil villain is taking an average of 74.5 damage if the pounce fully connects, and he may be grappled to boot, at which point the fighter or rogue finishes him. The lion probably attacks again next round.
lvl 7, and this thing only has a +7 to hit. You will be lucky if more than 1 makes contact, for an average 9.5 damage.
...and so on.
Now here's the thing: the damage these summons inflict is punchy, but secondary. What's primary is their role in soaking up damage. The lion has 42 hp: each of them takes a round or two to kill, in which that foe isn't doing 42 damage to your fighter or rogue. You can think of that lion at 42 temporary hit points for the rogue...42 hp which also happens to be doing a lot of damage each round too.
As a monster, why would I attack the lion? It can't hurt me, when the fighter or rogue, who is also in melee contact if they are attacking me, is actually hurting me.
The tertiary role of the summons is battlefield control. The spider is good at this, but even the lion is taking up space between you and the fight. On top of these three roles - damage-soak, damage-dealer and control - there are the spell-like abilities to consider later, but as I hope these examples illustrate, those are just gravy. Summons are good, good spells without any SLAs attached.Happy hunting,
the Porp.
Then how about a party of casters vs. a party of melee.You should run some PBP PvP battles. Someone on the "casters rule all" side should post a caster build, any level. Someone else who feels they want to challenge that caster's "rule all" abilities should create a melee type of the same level and post it. When the battle starts the caster will have to post a list of spells memorized (or spells known if it's a spontaneous caster). Find some neutral way of deciding the setting, anything from an arena to a dark alley way, whatever. You should start combat un-buffed, although you might reasonably be allowed to have any defensive buffs that last all day, or the majority of the day, but that will cut into the caster's spells per day for the combat, unless they are item based buffs.One-on-one fights don't answer anything, they are entirely artificial, it's party vs encounter that is telling.
That proves nothing either. The game is not all combat, and the debate is about encounters which can be social among other things. Sneaking into a castle to steal something, and getting out without being detected could be another test.
I would suggest the parties run through the same or similar encounters.
Another way is to take the classic four, and replace the fighter with a caster, any caster to see if the party gets better or worse.
After that you take out one of the casters, and replace it with a fighter.
Then you can see how much the party suffers without the melee person or the caster.
Fighter=melee type for the purpose of this post.
In a 15 point buy, with that con/caststat, you're looking at (at best) +4 initiative ever WITH the feat.
Well, not necessarily:
Diviners get +level/2 initiative and always get to go in the surprise round.
There's at least one trait that's +2 initiative (Reactionary, I believe).
Scorpion familiar is +2 initiative (although bonded object is far superior for the way I play, if you really want more initiative this is one way to get it.)
What if it's more like 1-st turn - the drow wizard with +7 initiative and superior stealth due to invis and natural affinity for such things starts by casting Grease. With a DC of as little as 15, he'll still have an average of 3 of you rolling on the floor (as you have +0 ref save, all of you, and some might even have negative acrobatics due to armor, and that assumes a cha 7 cleric). And he's a CR 1/2 encounter!
The thing is, what does that get you? Team caster's on the floor but nothing stops them from casting while prone -- there's not even a concentration check necessary to do so. The drow wizard may be dead from cantrips before he gets to go again.
|
The thing is, what does that get you? Team caster's on the floor but nothing stops them from casting while prone -- there's not even a concentration check necessary to do so. The drow wizard may be dead from cantrips before he gets to go again.
Sorry, but arguing that you can drop a drow WIZARD with a cantrip doesn't exactly instill the teeming masses with confidence that WIZARDS are the ultimate class.
And pray tell, what is this save or die cantrip that you're using, anyway?
Sorry, but arguing that you can drop a drow WIZARD with a cantrip doesn't exactly instill the teeming masses with confidence that WIZARDS are the ultimate class.
And pray tell, what is this save or die cantrip that you're using, anyway?
Acid splash x4? (That's probably a slight exaggeration even with drow having a CON penalty.)
The argument was that this CR 1/2 drow wizard would be a threat to the all-caster party by Greasing them. My argument is that he isn't.
Probably a better set of tactics for him would be to start casting Sleep from 100' away -- he might not be seen / interrupted in time and in that case he'd at least win in the unlikely case that everyone blows their save, whereas in this case Grease isn't even useful.
This, of course, is putting aside: why is a 4 man party walking in a tightly packed 2x2 so they all fit neatly in a 10' x 10' square?
Is this thread supposed to be accomplishing something that the wizards vs melee isn't?
I understand it was supposed to be a caster build in here, but if the OP had read the other threads he would know that probably won't happen.
Honestly a 7 in wisdom? That's not such a good idea.
Even with a good will save to begin with taking a 7 wisdom puts you in a worse spot than most optimized martial characters. You start at +0 meaning of everyone in the party you are more likely to drop to the sleep or color spray than anyone else, and the average "optimized" fighter will probably have more than 13 HP (10 off of hit dice 1 from favored class 2~3 from Con plus the possibility of toughness for 3 more), and much better than "auto hit" AC (probably in the range of 17~20).
Overall that wizard is asking to die quickly -- he can't stop CMB attempts or escape from a grapple, his will save is abyssmal meaning he's vulnerable to most the effects he's hoping to use, his AC is a nice easy 10~14 at most.
In comparision this is what I would probably do with a fighter 15 point buy:
Half Orc (sacred tattoos)
Str 14
Dex 12(+2 racial)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 7
Feats:Iron will, Power attack
(150 gp)
Weapons(25 gp): Cestus, Scimitar, Light Hammers (5), Sling
Armor(64 gp): Heavy Wood shield (2, one for use one for spare), scale mail
Other(~50 gp): 10 torches, bedroll, backpack, waterskin, wandermeal, weapon cord, rope, shield sconce, sunrod, keros oil, bear trap (2), Acid flask (2)
Left over (19 gp)
Skills: Perception, Heal, Acrobatics
Gives +2 to hit with each weapon, 1dx+4 damage on average (1dx+2 on ranged), an AC of 19 with only HP 13 hp (so not so hot there), Saves of +5(f)+3(r)+5(w).
The thing is, what does that get you? Team caster's on the floor but nothing stops them from casting while prone -- there's not even a concentration check necessary to do so. The drow wizard may be dead from cantrips before he gets to go again.
Grease is by many defined as a save or suck - why not for the players and just for the monsters? And the drow is hardly acting alone; that's why I pointed out that he's CR 1/2. But there's other things to make life hard for them too; crossbows are a big one. The sor/wiz will likely have an AC of 10 and his 10 hit points, that means he can be sniped from 100 ft. away and still get hit quite easily. Three first-level elven warriors can do a lot of hurt that way, and the chance of spotting them is quite small (-10 penalty due to range, and decent stealth gives a lot). And that's not some weird anti-wizard tactic; ambushes and snipers are part of the core rules and for creatures as mortal as 1-st level elves, probably the most common tactic. Even if just two of the bolts hit, 2d10 damage has a big chance of knocking the wiz out. If one is a crit or all three hit, there's a real risk he dies. And the cleric/druid has to waste time and resources curing or at least stopping the bleed, while not many efficient 1-st level spells have a range of 100 ft. Then you might miss someone who's good at ranged attacks, or capable of closing with them quickly without getting turning into a pin cushion (for example, someone with an AC of 16 instead of 10 and 14 hit points instead of 10).
Or a tanglefoot bag, or entangle spell. Or simply a thunderstone or two cast during the first encounter will seriously mess with casters, far more than anyone else; not only do they have quite bad saves (even with their 16 con, we're looking at +3 or +5 giving a 60% or 50% chance to be affected) and get 20% spell failure, they also get -4 initiative which hurts casters a LOT. And it lasts for an hour, so probably over more than one encounter if you're on a tight schedule. Or for that matter poison; you think it's bad when the fighter gets attacked by scarlet spiders and take 4 strength damage? When the 7 str wizard is the target, he won't be able to carry the clothes on his body.
The thing is, yes, in the right circumstances they can kick ass, but in other circumstances, they can't due to how the battlefield looks. If you know beforehand what you're going to fight and where - yes, the wizard will be the number one no matter what, but you don't always know that, especially not at lower levels and with a creative DM. They also have more weak spots, especially when "optimized" to the extend CoD does above. Yes, the fighter is susceptible to Charm Person - but so is a wizard with 7 wis.
I know about the other options for init, but unless human you can't have reactionary and imp init at level one (since traits aren't standard), and the bonded item is pointed out as a source of spells by both you and CoD in these discussions. Yeah, diviners get a bonus, at 1st level it's +0 though (or is it minimum +1? don't remember), in any case, it's a marginal bonus.
Hmmm you like checking out things eh?
Well why don't you check out Abraham Spalding's weapon master archer build in the other thread. It is on page 8.
Check it for mistakes, and post them here.
I mean I need to know if you have the moxie, know what I mean? And you really shouldn't mind right? After all, you want to trip up... I mean check out Codzilla, to make sure he knows what he is talking about. You will put out a little effort to make sure everyone who posts a build posts a good one right?
I should think that constant assertions of superiority and condescension to all opposition might warrant a little further scrutiny. But that's not why I want to see this Almighty Wizard statblock. I want to see it because I GM.
That is to say, as onerous as I find his manner, what he is saying might be worth attending to if it is true. At the moment, it seems like his numbers are impossibly inflated, and I'd need to see a statblock so I can see what he has sacrificed to attain that. But as long as he continues to cherry-pick the possible ratings, every wizard will be invincible.
Grease is by many defined as a save or suck - why not for the players and just for the monsters?
It's situational: some things care about being able to stand and move, and some things don't. Your hypotethetical all-caster party really doesn't.
Along the same lines, Slow really eviscerates melee monsters, instantly turning a monster that can legitimately kill party members in a good round to one that might do some damage but absolutely cannot kill anyone -- but a caster almost doesn't care if all he can do in a round is cast a spell.
Create Pit is a save-or-suck vs. things that don't fly but flying monsters don't care about it, etc. etc. etc.
Not every spell you have is good for everything; this isn't a good time for the hypothetical CR 1/2 drow wizard to be casting Grease. He has better options.
And the drow is hardly acting alone; that's why I pointed out that he's CR 1/2. But there's other things to make life hard for them too; crossbows are a big one. The sor/wiz will likely have an AC of 10 and his 10 hit points, that means he can be sniped from 100 ft. away and still get hit quite easily.
Well, you can't cast the grease from 100 feet away -- you need within 25 for that at 1st level.
For this encounter, being Greased may actually help the caster team -- being Prone ups their effective AC against ranged attacks considerably.
Three first-level elven warriors can do a lot of hurt that way, and the chance of spotting them is quite small (-10 penalty due to range, and decent stealth gives a lot). And that's not some weird anti-wizard tactic; ambushes and snipers are part of the core rules and for creatures as mortal as 1-st level elves, probably the most common tactic. Even if just two of the bolts hit, 2d10 damage has a big chance of knocking the wiz out. If one is a crit or all three hit, there's a real risk he dies. And the cleric/druid has to waste time and resources curing or at least stopping the bleed, while not many efficient 1-st level spells have a range of 100 ft. Then you might miss someone who's good at ranged attacks, or capable of closing with them quickly without getting turning into a pin cushion (for example, someone with an AC of 16 instead of 10 and 14 hit points instead of 10).
Sure. Of course, the first caster to get Obscuring Mist off ends that.
Or a tanglefoot bag, or entangle spell.
Same kind of comments here; both of these things are brutal against creatures that need to move up and melee to get things done; hypothetical team all caster doesn't care much, aside of a possible animal companion.
Or simply a thunderstone or two cast during the first encounter will seriously mess with casters, far more than anyone else;
It does do something; in my experience, it doesn't really do enough to factor all that heavily into planning.
It's situational: some things care about being able to stand and move, and some things don't. Your hypotethetical all-caster party really doesn't.Grease is by many defined as a save or suck - why not for the players and just for the monsters?
Except to move into position to color spray. Which is the primary level one SoS, together with grease (which the elven wizard cares as much about as you do) and sleep (which it is immune to).
Well, you can't cast the grease from 100 feet away -- you need within 25 for that at 1st level.
Oh, of course not. Sorry if it sounded like the same scenario, I'm talking about different scenarios.
Sure. Of course, the first caster to get Obscuring Mist off ends that.
Yeah, sure, but not every caster is going to have obscuring mist prepared at level one (certainly not a the same time as being full of offensive SoS's). In a wiz/clr/druid/sor party, the druid might have it prepared and maaaybe the cleric. Arcane bond doesn't work if the wiz is unconscious. And as said, all are going to have quite bad initiative even if they all pick imp. init, so there's a decent chance that some of the warriors get to act twice before most of the casters. And obscuring mist will surely keep the casters alive - but not take out the warriors, who are now free to disappear when both teams are unseen to each other. Result: team caster has spent hit points (or healing) and a 1st level spell. The warriors have spent a few bolts and might come back in a new ambush later.
Look, I'm not saying it's impossible to play an all-casters team or that it might even be easy most of the time, I'm just saying that they WILL have times when they'd wished someone was able to take a pounding, or do decent long-range attacks, or not have a saves of +3/+0/+0.
Same kind of comments here; both of these things are brutal against creatures that need to move up and melee to get things done; hypothetical team all caster doesn't care much, aside of a possible animal companion.
"If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level or be unable to cast the spell." For these casters, that's a 50% spell fail.
It does do something; in my experience, it doesn't really do enough to factor all that heavily into planning.
As a DM, I'm not a heavy user of thunderstones (or alchemical items overall) unless it's on very specific NPCs. They are however very effective against caster heavy teams; they are also quite long-range (20ft. increment, 100ft. max range). But really, 20% spell fail for an hour is a lot, at least combined with chances to not win initiative or spells not working.
It's a lot of chances, that's all. And generally, losing a turn is worse for team caster than teem varied.
Grease is by many defined as a save or suck - why not for the players and just for the monsters?
It's situational: some things care about being able to stand and move, and some things don't. Your hypotethetical all-caster party really doesn't.
Why not? At level 1, range spells are highly limmitted. If the enemy is 30 ft away, they are safe from most of them, and the remaining ones are not nearly as much of a threat. In the mean time, the enemy will be able to pluck away at you with ranged weapons, and possibly use sniping. Few casters can take a couple rounds of arrows at that level, and even once they stand the enemy can stay out of their range.
Yeah, sure, but not every caster is going to have obscuring mist prepared at level one (certainly not a the same time as being full of offensive SoS's).
Sure; that being said, you'll notice that my hypothetical level 5 wizard was packing it.
I've also seen level 1 wizards/sorcerers forgo more traditional starting equipment to have a few things like a scroll of Obscuring Mist on hand.
If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level or be unable to cast the spell." For these casters, that's a 50% spell fail
You're right; I forgot about that because I've literally never gotten it to work in my favor a Pathfinder game. (In one campaign I'm playing a character who throws Entangle a lot.)
Edited to add: Do you think a level 1 fighter or barbarian can take a pounding significantly better than a level 1 cleric or druid + animal companion? I don't.
There's sort of a core assumption on a lot of people's parts of "But at the LOW levels, the caster team is really bad." The thing is, at the lowest levels the uncasters are missing a lot of the features that push them ahead, especially of the divine casters. No iterative attacks due to high BAB, the staying power of rage isn't any better (yet) than the casters' number of spells, the fighter doesn't really have feats built into something that makes a truly formidable combination yet (usually), etc.
I removed a post that contained unacceptable language (and a reply to it.)
Is this thread supposed to be accomplishing something that the wizards vs melee isn't?
I understand it was supposed to be a caster build in here, but if the OP had read the other threads he would know that probably won't happen.
Yes.. I am starting to see your wisdom. At anyrate, here is my 5th lvl build that I am playing in a game. The stats are high.. but i rolled for them. I gues it makes up for being way behind on WBL.
CR 4
Male Human Wizard 5
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +10
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 15, touch 15, flat-footed 10. . (+4 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 40 (5d6+10)
Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +6
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Dagger +5 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Quarterstaff +4 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+2/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +7 (1d8/19-20/x2)
Wizard Spells Known (CL 5, 4 melee touch, 6 ranged touch):
3 (2/day) Haste (DC 18), Fireball (DC 18)
2 (3/day) Bull's Strength (DC 17), Scorching Ray, Touch of Idiocy
1 (5/day) Shocking Grasp, Shocking Grasp, Protection from Evil, Mage Armor, Magic Missile
0 (at will) Light, Detect Magic, Bleed (DC 15), Read Magic
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 20, Wis 14, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +4; CMD 19
Feats Academy Graduate, Additional Traits, Cosmopolitan: Sense Motive, Perception, Craft Wand, Dodge, Scribe Scroll, Wizard Weapon Proficiencies
Traits Black Sheep - Titus Scarnetti: Stealth, Child of the Streets, Extremely Fashionable: Intimidate, Focused Mind
Skills Appraise +9, Bluff +9, Craft: Calligraphy +3, Diplomacy +9, Fly +8, Intimidate +9, Knowledge: Arcana +10, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +9, Knowledge: Engineering +9, Knowledge: Geography +9, Knowledge: History +11, Knowledge: Local +10, Knowledge: Nature +9, Knowledge: Nobility +11, Knowledge: Religion +9, Knowledge: The Planes +9, Linguistics +9, Perception +10, Sense Motive +10, Sleight of Hand +10, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +10
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Ignan, Infernal, Undercommon
SQ Bonded Object: Amulet (1/day) (Sp), Hand of the Apprentice (8/day) (Su), Ring of Sustenance
Combat Gear Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Masterwork Dagger, Quarterstaff, Bolts, Crossbow (20); Other Gear Amulet, Backpack, Masterwork (10 @ 22 lbs), Bag, Waterproof (2 @ 6.5 lbs), Case, map or scroll (10 @ 0 lbs), Flint and steel, Ink (1 oz. vial, black) (2), Inkpen, Parchment (sheet) (10), Rations, trail (per day) (5), Ring of Sustenance, Rope, hempen (50 ft.), Scroll: Black Tentacles, Signet ring, Spell component pouch (2), Spellbook, wizard's (blank) (2), Wrist sheath, spring loaded (2)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bonded Object: Amulet (1/day) (Sp) DC 20 + spell level to cast spells without the bonded object. Once per day, you can cast any spell in your spellbook for free.
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Hand of the Apprentice (8/day) (Su) Throw the melee weapon you are holding 8/day.
Ring of Sustenance This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
Faint conjuration; CL 5th; Forge Ring, create food and water; Price 2,500 gp.
Created With Hero Lab® - try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com!