Yeah, sure, but not every caster is going to have obscuring mist prepared at level one (certainly not a the same time as being full of offensive SoS's).
Sure; that being said, you'll notice that my hypothetical level 5 wizard was packing it.
I've also seen level 1 wizards/sorcerers forgo more traditional starting equipment to have a few things like a scroll of Obscuring Mist on hand.
Certainly. What I'm saying is that you're not guaranteed to have that every time. And at level 5 having access to obscuring mist is a must, more or less. It's a fantastic spell and there's no reason NOT to have it. But even if you have it, the warriors have "won" the encounter in getting you to spend resources while not doing that themselves (except for time).
Edited to add: Do you think a level 1 fighter or barbarian can take a pounding significantly better than a level 1 cleric or druid + animal companion? I don't.
YES! I very much think so. At low levels, AC is key to survival. Everyone will have somewhat bad hit points and risk falling to a critical, but fighters and paladins (and to some extent barbarians) are far better at surviving it due to higher AC and that few extra hit points.
The cleric and druid will both probably have AC 16 (hide armor, heavy shield) and it's 11 hit points. I assume it wants to keep away from heavy encumbrance, because hit and run tactics are incredibly easy against someone with a max speed of 60 ft./turn; thus, 35 lbs for armor leaves 11 lbs for everything else, which seems reasonable under most circumstances (though it's a bit low if you can't bring a mule).
The animal companion will have an AC of 14 if it's a large cat (by most people considered the optimal choice) and 11 hit points.
The fighter or paladin will have an AC of 19 (+1 dex, +6 chain mail, +2 heavy shield) and 13 hit points. If it's a two-handed weapons fighter, it lacks a heavy shield, but I usually take toughness at level one in that case so AC 17, 16 hp. The barbarian (when raging) will likewise have 14 AC (+1 dex, +5 scale mail, -2 rage) and 18 hp.
Now, the cleric is clearly easier to kill; while he has some defensive buffs, those take time to put up (no long duration ones) and take away a LOT from his offensive options.
The druid and companion is a little harder and requires some math. They too lack high duration buffs. It's too hard to calculate strategic opportunities and risks of being two beings, so we'll simply see who survives most attacks.
A CR 1 combat focused enemy should have +2 to hit and deal an average of 7 damage per round provided all attacks hit. We'll assume that it's from a single attack.
DPR against AC 14: 7*0.45=3.15
DPR against AC 15: 7*0.40=2.8
DPR against AC 16: 7*0.35=2.45
DPR against AC 19: 7*0.2 =1.4
Rounds of attack they can take:
Fighter/pala (S&B): 13/1.4=9.3
Fighter/pala (2h): 16/2.8=5.7
Cleric/druid: 11/2.45=4.5
Companion: 11/3.15=3.5
Barbarian (R): 18/3.15=5.7
Barbarian: 16/2.45=6.5
So the druid and companion together take 8 rounds of attack to take down, which is more than the barb or 2h but less than the S&B fighter/pala.
Another way to compare it is to see the risk of it becoming dying within 4 attacks, presuming average damage. Calculating chance of different damages would be far too much work.
Fighter/pala (S&B): Needs to be hit by 2 attacks, chance is 18.1%
Fighter/pala (2h): Needs to be hit by 3 attacks, chance if 15.7%
Cleric/druid: Needs to be hit by 2 attacks, chance is 43.7%
Companion: Needs to be hit by 2 attacks, chance is 60.9%
Barbarian (R): Needs to be hit by 3 attacks, chance is 24.1%
Barbarian: Needs to be hit by 3 attacks, chance is 12.64%
Here we get similiar results in that the cleric/druid still is far easier to kill, but different in that extra HP seems to matter much more. That makes sense mathematically, as at low levels, it's the unlucky hits that matter; your primary defensive attribute is your AC at low levels, but when you actually get hit, surviving one extra attack really matters.
W = exact number of hits on four dice
AC 19
0,8*0,8*0,8*0,8 = 0W = 0.4096
0,2*0.8*0.8*0.8*4 = 1W = 0.4096
0,2*0.2*0.8*0.8*6 = 2W = 0.1536
0,2*0,2*0,2*0,8*4 = 3W = 0.0256
0,2*0,2*0,2*0,2 = 4W = 0.0016
AC 17
0,7*0,7*0,7*0,7 = 0W = 0.2401
0,3*0.7*0.7*0.7*4 = 1W = 0.4116
0,3*0.3*0.7*0.7*6 = 2W = 0.2646
0,3*0,3*0,3*0,7*4 = 3W = 0.0756
0,3*0,3*0,3*0,3 = 4W = 0.0081
AC 16
0,65*0,65*0,65*0,65 = 0W = 0.17850625
0,35*0,65*0,65*0,65*4 = 1W = 0,384475
0,35*0,35*0,65*0,65*6 = 2W = 0,3105375
0,35*0,35*0,35*0,65*4 = 3W = 0,111475
0,35*0,35*0,35*0,35 = 4W = 0,01500625
AC 14
0,55*0,55*0,55*0,55 = 0W = 0,09150625
0,45*0,55*0,55*0,55*4 = 1W = 0,299475
0,45*0,45*0,55*0,55*6 = 2W = 0,3675375
0,45*0,45*0,45*0,55*4 = 3W = 0,200475
0,45*0,45*0,45*0,45 = 4W = 0,04100625
Now of course this is hypothetical and no character can reliably stand there and take it for that many rounds in the real game. It just demonstrates that the fighter has a lesser chance of dying quickly.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Stupid begets stupid. 15 PB is stupid. If you haven't caught onto why after as many times as I explained it you never will. So while I agree with you, the solution is to use a non stupid PB.
NOW it all makes sense. You play with high point buy characters, and believe anyone who doesn't is "stupid". I'm sure you also play in a high magic campaign where your PCs can buy anything they want as well, which explains why your characters seem to have everything they need for any contingency and your combats only last a few rounds.
Something you may want to take into consideration: Not everyone plays the way you do. BTW, that doesn't make them "stupid" for doing so.
NOW it all makes sense. You play with high point buy characters, and believe anyone who doesn't is "stupid".
Well, the thing is, low point buys impact non-caster characters more than they impact caster characters. So if what you think is that all classes are equally viable or should be equally viable, yes, it's stupid to pick a stat setup that doesn't allow that. (In the game I'm currently running, essentially, the non-caster characters get a lot more stat points, which I find to be a very effective if non-strictly-standard way to address this same issue.)
As far as item availability goes, same thing. Casters don't need a magic mart -- they can make everything they need. You essentially cannot prevent them from having whatever they need without banning core feats. It's the non-casters that suffer a lot more without it.
Neither of those things is an opinion, incidentally.
Edited to add: Do you think a level 1 fighter or barbarian can take a pounding significantly better than a level 1 cleric or druid + animal companion? I don't.YES! I very much think so.
Based on your math, I gather your cleric and druid have 7 STR? I might do that on a druid, but I don't think I would on most clerics -- sometimes I build them more like a pure caster (and I do think that's a viable option), but it's more likely that I give them slightly more balanced stats. In which case, yeah, the cleric's save DCs suffer by a point or so but he is probably wearing about the same armor as your S&B guys.
I honestly think sword+board fighter/paladin/whatever is kind of terrible at 1st level -- you give up too much offense for the small AC boost you get, and it's too easy for enemies to just ignore you and beat on lower-AC targets in most situations.
To whatever extend taking Toughness seems like a good feat for a two-handed fighter or barbarian, I think it seems like at least that good of an idea for a character with d6 or d8 HD. I'd have had a harder time fitting it in in 3.5, but at the moment between Pathfinder's extra feats and it lacking some of the must-have options of 3.5 splat it feels pretty easy to fit in. I'd have a lot harder time justifying it on a fighter, where feats are the lifeblood of my offense and versatility and the APG has just added that many more options I don't want to pass up.
Finally, imagine a level 1 party that swaps their fighter for an extra cleric. Don't you imagine that that party as a whole can absorb a lot more pounding given Channel, even if cleric #2 never casts a single healing spell?
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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NOW it all makes sense. You play with high point buy characters, and believe anyone who doesn't is "stupid".Well, the thing is, low point buys impact non-caster characters more than they impact caster characters. So if what you think is that all classes are equally viable or should be equally viable, yes, it's stupid to pick a stat setup that doesn't allow that. (In the game I'm currently running, essentially, the non-caster characters get a lot more stat points, which I find to be a very effective if non-strictly-standard way to address this same issue.)
As far as item availability goes, same thing. Casters don't need a magic mart -- they can make everything they need. You essentially cannot prevent them from having whatever they need without banning core feats. It's the non-casters that suffer a lot more without it.
Neither of those things is an opinion, incidentally.
They may not be opinions, but they make certain assumptions about the way people play the game.
For example, I've never played in a campaign that provided enough time between adventures to craft any magic items other than potions and scrolls - and even that was pushing it. It's a play style choice, true, but it is an example that illustrates that the way you may play the game does not match the way others play it.
As for your low point buy concern, everything should scale based on the point buy selected. Your DM should take into account the point buy used when designing encounters. Something that is easy for a party of 25 point buy PCs is more challenging for those using a 15 point buy. This is something your DM is responsible for being aware of and addressing. Sure, your stats may be a little lower, but the encounters should be scaled to be challenging, but not overwhelming. Once again, this is a play style choice. Some folks may think those who use a 15 point buy are "stupid" for doing so (as CoDzilla apparently does), but that definitely IS an opinion - and one that doesn't take into account how other people may play the game.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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NOW it all makes sense. You play with high point buy characters, and believe anyone who doesn't is "stupid".Well, the thing is, low point buys impact non-caster characters more than they impact caster characters. So if what you think is that all classes are equally viable or should be equally viable, yes, it's stupid to pick a stat setup that doesn't allow that.
As far as item availability goes, same thing. Casters don't need a magic mart -- they can make everything they need. You essentially cannot prevent them from having whatever they need without banning core feats. It's the non-casters that suffer a lot more without it.
Neither of those things is an opinion, incidentally.
This. All of it.
Low PB is dismissed as stupid by me because it hurts the people who least need to be hurt, and no one else.
Same with low item availability, which I didn't mention, but it is true that martial characters, even the good ones must have a mage mart to be successful in the campaigns I play in.
Oh and newsflash: In my experience Combat lasts only a few rounds regardless of player capabilities. Just if those capabilities are too low, it's not the PCs winning within that timeframe. It is the enemy.
Fixed that for you. Opinions shouldn't be cited as fact.
The misrepresentation. Knock it off.You get four chances to go first.
Yes, four chances that each aren't equal to his chance. Thirty-two commoners get 32 attacks with their slings against you, that doesn't mean your single fireball isn't more relevant.
Because we're all walking so close together that a 10 foot square gets us all? Oh wait, we're not.
Fair enough, if you're in an open space.
Meanwhile he's a Drow Wizard with 16 dex, so it's super easy to take him out 5 on 1.
Ignoring more misrepresentation, and questions I've already answered.
If he's alone, yes. That's why I noted he's CR 1/2; he can have goons.
If you are ambushed, you are flat footed. Which means exactly the same thing happens. 10 dex, 14 dex, or 18 dex. And that's if you hold up low levels, only as some kind of holy grail = past that, you get auto hit regardless.
Fair enough. Then it's just the fact that non-casters generally have better armor or other ways to improve AC.
And yes, I am comparing low levels because I only play low levels and to some extent agree that casters overshadows the other classes at high levels (which is why I play low levels).
Stupid begets stupid. 15 PB is stupid. If you haven't caught onto why after as many times as I explained it you never will. So while I agree with you, the solution is to use a non stupid PB.
It's the standard. Just because you don't like it doesn't change that standard should be assumed when we discuss builds in a vacuum like this and unless otherwise noted. You seemed to claim that 10hp 20 casting stat was optimal, so I tried out how the build would look. And yes, it looks stupid. That's more an issue of munchkinism than with the point buy though; nobody forces you to take 20 int. If you feel it's needed to survive in an all-caster party that says more of the parties than not, my players used 15pt in a balanced party (or rather, low-caster party; wiz4/rog1, paladin5, fighter3/bar2, ranger) with only medium optimization within the chars through this example adventure and managed to survive fine. Or well, one close call but otherwise fine.
As for HP totals, what PB are you using that gives the Fighter more than 14 Con, + everything else he needs? 10 + 2 Con + favored class is a best case scenario,
Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 7. His saves are at +5/+1/+0, better than your +3/+0/+0. HP is 14. Racial goes to strength, unless dwarf, where you drop wis and con by 2 and increase strength for the same effect (though you lose two cha - big deal). I could even see dropping wis to 8 for Dex 14, and taking the iron will feat; he'll have far better saves than the wiz and be behind in initiative by just +2 with the same amount of feat investment.
Based on your math, I gather your cleric and druid have 7 STR? I might do that on a druid, but I don't think I would on most clerics -- sometimes I build them more like a pure caster (and I do think that's a viable option), but it's more likely that I give them slightly more balanced stats.Edited to add: Do you think a level 1 fighter or barbarian can take a pounding significantly better than a level 1 cleric or druid + animal companion? I don't.YES! I very much think so.
Based it on CoD's example casters which all seem to feature three stats at 7 to buy 16 con, 20 casting stat. But yeah, they should probably have more balanced stats if you're in a real campaign. Even so, fighters are usually ahead at start due to higher starting wealth and higher hit points.
Oh and newsflash: Combat lasts only a few rounds regardless of player capabilities. Just if those capabilities are too low, it's not the PCs winning within that timeframe. It is the enemy.
Combat length is largely dependent on level and distances, as well as terrain. At low levels, distances larger than 80ft. usually extend the battle for a turn or two, as does shorter distances if there's a lot of difficult terrain (such as in a forest). If enemies or players are spread out, that delays the battle even more, especially if hit-and-run tactics are used (commonly used against people who get encumbered by the boot on their feet).
Yes, battles in a 40ft.*40ft. bare stone room is usually over really fast. Not all battles are that way though.
For example, I've never played in a campaign that provided enough time between adventures to craft any magic items other than potions and scrolls - and even that was pushing it. It's a play style choice, true, but it is an example that illustrates that the way you may play the game does not match the way others play it.
Have you read PF's crafting rules? They're different from 3.5 in this respect. At this point, crafting happens while you're adventuring -- essentially, on any day in which you have enough rest to regain spells, you're guaranteed to have sufficient time to craft.
As for your low point buy concern, everything should scale based on the point buy selected. Your DM should take into account the point buy used when designing encounters. Something that is easy for a party of 25 point buy PCs is more challenging for those using a 15 point buy. This is something your DM is responsible for being aware of and addressing. Sure, your stats may be a little lower, but the encounters should be scaled to be challenging, but not overwhelming.
You're missing the point here.
The problem isn't that 15 PB characters can't handle what 25 PB characters can.
The problem is that low PB impacts some classes more than others, and specifically that it impacts the most the classes that already struggle. A 15 PB wizard can almost handle what a 25 PB wizard can, but a 15 PB monk isn't even remotely close to being able to handle what a 25 PB monk can. I haven't crunched the numbers on it but it genuinely would not surprise me if a 25 PB monk could typically beat two 15 PB monks in a steel cage fistfight -- it's that big a difference.
The lower the PB, the more some classes fall out of being viable (relative to other choices) in even a somewhat casual game.
NOW it all makes sense. You play with high point buy characters, and believe anyone who doesn't is "stupid".Well, the thing is, low point buys impact non-caster characters more than they impact caster characters. So if what you think is that all classes are equally viable or should be equally viable, yes, it's stupid to pick a stat setup that doesn't allow that.
This is true to some extent, i agree with that when comparing DPR capabilities against each others. However, -1 attack and damage hurts a fighter less than -1 spell DC hurts an offensive caster; while there are spells that doesn't allow saves, a lot of them do, and there's fewer ways to improve spell DC than to hit/damage. And as said, at high levels to hit isn't THAT important.
I think that it's true to an extent, but not so much as pro-caster parties seem to think.
As far as item availability goes, same thing. Casters don't need a magic mart -- they can make everything they need. You essentially cannot prevent them from having whatever they need without banning core feats.
I agree with you in conclusion but not for the same reasons. Basically, without magic items the fighter-type is toast at high levels due to damage reduction, AC's and exponentially increasing hit points. The caster still has a somewhat decent chance to get of SoS-spells and can use no-save spells with full effect. This however, only matters at high levels. Even at level 8 or 10, which is the highest levels I play nowadays, it's not that noticeable (we have no magic marts).
But you can't craft anything because crafting requires large amounts of gold (less than buying, of course, but still hard cash). Magic marts are also where you usually sell your magic loot, and without gold you can't craft items. If you have a DM that often lets you find the magic items you need (rather than finding gold to go buy them), which seems to be the most common substitute for the magic mart, then the wizard is stuck with more or less what he gets (though most commonly gold is available, but a limited resource).
While they are observable issues with the system, how severe the issues are is an opinion.
However, -1 attack and damage hurts a fighter less than -1 spell DC hurts an offensive caster
I really, really disagree, mostly based on my experiences playing martial characters with varying levels of stats.
First, because spell DCs never enter into it. You drop the PB, and the wizard's INT doesn't drop; his other stats do.
Second, because the implications of losing +1 to hit are huge. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but have a read through something like one of the DPR Olympics threads. There's a reason why stacking Flaming onto a weapon instead of another +1 is often a suboptimal option in terms of doing damage.
Third, because even a difference of STR is not necessarily just +1 damage. I guess it is for a S&B fighter, but that already seems like a sucker bet to me. It will be just +1 damage for a two-weapon fighter, but he's applying it to more attacks. For a two-handed weapon character it can be more damage.
Fourth, because what you're doing as a martial character with extra stat points isn't necessarily pouring it straight into STR. Your plans may well involve feat trees that require a 13 or higher in some other stat. The less stat points you have, the harder it gets to make a character using those trees without becoming a complete joke in terms of hitting and dealing damage.
Fifth, because lower point buys tend to have an impact on saving throws; magical characters have more ways to compensate than most martial characters.
Sixth, because lower point buys tend to impact CMB/CMD, which martial characters tend to care a lot more about.
I could keep going. It's a lot of little things, and they really do add up.
Fair enough, if you're in an open space.Which we are, else he can't hide.
Yes you can. Heard of concealment? Not every dungeon is light. Especially not when fighting creatures that have Darkness as a SLA. Even if it's just naturally dark, darkvision 120ft. combined with decent stealth score means he have a good chance of seeing the characters before they see him.
But yeah, we can assume an open space if you like.
If he's alone, yes. That's why I noted he's CR 1/2; he can have goons.So... what? Some Drow Warrior 1? Not impressed.
Not every encounter is CR1. A CR1 encounter is just a speed bump; something crawling around on the floor definately constitutes. As part of a CR2 (challenging) encounter, that gives 4 kobold slaves spread throughout the room. With three of the characters on the floor, the fourth is the target of four +3 crossbow bolts for 1d6 damage each, which has a good chance to sink a AC10 HP10 wizard and a decent chance at a AC16, HP11 cleric or druid.
Compared to arcane casters? Maybe. Not that it matters, as level 1 and 2 are luck based missions no matter what, and go much beyond that and you start getting auto hit.
A lot of things is luck in D&D. Even at higher levels it's luck that keeps your spells working and luck that makes you succeed at a saving throw against enemy spells and luck that keep the 8d6 falling ceiling trap from scoring 40 damage.
Saying that we shouldn't could differences in probability at level 1 because there's a lot of chance is kind of stupid. The same thing can be said at any level. The risk of an AC 19, 14 hp fighter dying from a crossbow salvo is far smaller than the risk of an AC 10, 10 hp wizard dying of the same. The risk of a critical on the fighter is, assuming a +2 attack bonus, 1/50. On the wizard it's 1/15.
And no, you're not autohitting, at least not all attacks. There's several math breakdowns on the board that show armor high enough to matter is quite easy to get at any level.
As for saves, the Wizard has a rat familiar.
Fair enough - just remember that you don't have a bonded item spell then.
As for saves, the Wizard has a rat familiar. Net advantage of Fighter is +1 reflex save. Too bad there aren't any good Reflex based effects at that level. Too bad a +1 difference is less than a rounding error.
Oh, except for grease, entangle, and tanglefoot bags. But yeah, +1 is a small difference. However, your claim was that you wouldn't get more than 13 hp with a 1st level fighter due to "other needs"; I assumed those other needs where attack power, AC, and saves. That's why I mentioned saves. So still, he's got 16 con and not worse saves than your wizard. And far, far better AC.
However, -1 attack and damage hurts a fighter less than -1 spell DC hurts an offensive casterI really, really disagree, mostly based on my experiences playing martial characters with varying levels of stats.
First, because spell DCs never enter into it. You drop the PB, and the wizard's INT doesn't drop; his other stats do.
Due to increasing PB costs, by keeping INT high you end up with something akin to CoD's three 7's (of course not that bad if you accept a wizard with 9 hit points, freeing 5 point for the PB). This drastically decreases the survivability of the character in any campaign that uses ability damage and similiar conditions on a frequent basis. So it's very campaign dependant.
Second, because the implications of losing +1 to hit are huge. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but have a read through something like one of the DPR Olympics threads. There's a reason why stacking Flaming onto a weapon instead of another +1 is often a suboptimal option in terms of doing damage.
Yeah, I know they are huge in a full-blown optimized damage build. However, to people who doesn't 100% optimize on damage, giving up something not needed to get that extra +1 isn't impossible. You don't need that +1 extra to be viable against CR-equivalent opponents, and because you roll the dice a LOT of times, those times you fail won't be as noticeable. A wizard dropping his Wis to 7 will notice when he fails a save he would have made with Wis 10.
I guess it is for a S&B fighter, but that already seems like a sucker bet to me. It will be just +1 damage for a two-weapon fighter, but he's applying it to more attacks. For a two-handed weapon character it can be more damage.
On a side note, you probably already know this but your sentence seems to imply you don't, but S&B fighters are dual-wielders.
Fifth, because lower point buys tend to have an impact on saving throws; magical characters have more ways to compensate than most martial characters.
This also depend on the campaign, the availability of magical items, and what consequences are for failing. I usually see that casters have more ways to avoid the negative consequences at higher levels, but that the non-casters suffer less if they fail it. An effect that deals ability damage hurts SAD characters more, no matter if they're targeted in a dump stat or a high stat. The same can be said for level drains and the like, and to some degree mind control (because as has been stated, casters are better at destroying stuff quickly at higher levels).
Also note that this situation which was very true in 3.5 has been remedied somewhat nowadays (especially with the APG). Fighter types are far less squishy when it comes to saves, due to feats and class abilities.At low levels, caster's don't have that many ways to avoid negative effects of failed saves. Some elemental resistances here or there, and protection from evil (which nowadays only actually work against evil) but not much more than that.
PS. By the way, you're much more interesting to discuss with than CoD XD
On a side note, you probably already know this but your sentence seems to imply you don't, but S&B fighters are dual-wielders.
True. (Or at least, yeah, you probably are going to pick those feats as you can.) It just seems to me in practice that STR is less a factor for them because they're sinking feats into the dual-wield stuff AND the shield-specific stuff. A game I'm currently playing in has both a "true" dual-wield fighter and a S&B fighter and while the latter is cracking things upside the head with his shield the difference in damage output so far is pretty enormous.
It might even out at much higher levels somewhat; I haven't tried to crunch the numbers or builds out.
Something you may want to take into consideration: Not everyone plays the way you do. BTW, that doesn't make them "stupid" for doing so.
I've tried to make this point too, but he can't seem to grasp it.
Low point buy actually favours MAD over SAD, because MAD generally needs moderate scores while SAD needs a more expensive high one. 15PB fighter? 16 str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Cha - perfectly playable.
Low point buy actually favours MAD over SAD, because MAD generally needs moderate scores while SAD needs a more expensive high one.
I'm sorry, but not only do I think you're wrong, I honestly do not think a remotely coherent argument can be made for that position.
It's just too diametrically opposed to everything that's inherently obvious about, well, math. A character that needs more stats benefits more from fewer stats than a character that needs fewer stats? Huh?
Low point buy actually favours MAD over SAD, because MAD generally needs moderate scores while SAD needs a more expensive high one.I'm sorry, but not only do I think you're wrong, I honestly do not think a remotely coherent argument can be made for that position.
It's just too diametrically opposed to everything that's inherently obvious about, well, math. A character that needs more stats benefits more from fewer stats than a character that needs fewer stats? Huh?
Well, while I don't agree with him, it's not that hard to make a case for it; it "wastes" less bonuses because of increasing costs of attributes. A SAD character has to spend 17 points just on his main stat, and gets an array (for a wizard) something like 7, 13, 14, 18, 8, 7. Strength is a non-issue and so is cha, but the rest will affect the character. Total bonus value is 1+2+4-1=+6. A paladin might have 16, 13, 14, 7, 7, 14, for a total relevant bonus of 3+1+2+2=+8 (between cha to saves, good will, immunity to fear, and mercies, paladin is the only class that can dump wis with no heavy burden). That said, not all those stats are equal in any case, but it's a rational argument (though not very heavy as said).
I removed some childish sniping. Act like adults, please.
Classes that need more than one stat generally don't need them to be as high as classes that need one stat. For example, Wizard needs high intelligence, moderate will not do. So if you take 15PB, a wizard can get 17 int (before racial adjustment) and has little left for anything else. A paladin (for example) needs str, con and cha to make best use of his skills and abilities and for 15 points he can get 14 in each before racial adjustments which is all he needs. He's gained +6 in modifiers from the points alone, the wizard has only gained +3. Add racial adjustments on top and it's +4 for the wizard against +7.
First, you're ignoring the possibility of selling stats down to get points back. This is a great idea for the SAD character; obviously as a character becomes more and more MAD it becomes harder or even impossible.
Second, adding total modifiers is a fairly meaningless statistic. Picking out who benefits more from that is like trying to pick the winner of the Super Bowl based on which team scored the most field goals in the third quarter.
Well, while I don't agree with him, it's not that hard to make a case for it; it "wastes" less bonuses because of increasing costs of attributes. A SAD character has to spend 17 points just on his main stat, and gets an array (for a wizard) something like 7, 13, 14, 18, 8, 7. Strength is a non-issue and so is cha, but the rest will affect the character. Total bonus value is 1+2+4-1=+6. A paladin might have 16, 13, 14, 7, 7, 14, for a total relevant bonus of 3+1+2+2=+8 (between cha to saves, good will, immunity to fear, and mercies, paladin is the only class that can dump wis with no heavy burden). That said, not all those stats are equal in any case, but it's a rational argument (though not very heavy as said).Low point buy actually favours MAD over SAD, because MAD generally needs moderate scores while SAD needs a more expensive high one.I'm sorry, but not only do I think you're wrong, I honestly do not think a remotely coherent argument can be made for that position.
It's just too diametrically opposed to everything that's inherently obvious about, well, math. A character that needs more stats benefits more from fewer stats than a character that needs fewer stats? Huh?
Thank you. My point was that MAD is not gimped any more than SAD. But again it's down to play-style at the end of the day. Some players feel they cannot function without an 18-20 in every stat that is important, others will adjust to a different power level.
I removed some childish sniping. Act like adults, please.
Awwwww... Do we have to?
Ross, we're making you work too hard this week.
AC
At level 5, Ant Lion(CR5) +10 to hit. FYI, I just grabbed the first CR5 monster with a single attack.
Fighter with 22AC(Full plate +1<2650 gold> with 14 Dex) = 45% chance to be hit
Wizard with AC 14(Wand of Mage Armor<750 gold>) = 85% chance to be hit
Wizard with AC 14 + Mirror Image(3 images) = 21.25% chance to be hit
Wizard with AC 14 + Invisibility = 42.5% chance to be hit IF you can guess the right square
At level 10, Brachiosaurus(CR10) with a +23 to hit.
A fighter will be around 28AC(Full Plate +3<10650 gold> with 18 dex and +2 from wonderous items) = 80% chance to get hit.
The mage will be around 17 AC(Mage armor<level 1 spell, 10 hour duration>, +3 from wonderous items) = 95% chance to be hit
With mirror image(5 images) = 15.8% chance to be hit
With invisiblity = 47.5% chance to be hit.
With fly = cannot be reached, no chance to be hit.
As you go up in CR, to hit bonuses scale faster than AC. Spells that give a miss chance or allow you to evade the enemy completely are much better than anything that merely increases AC. Fighters start out with the edge in this area, but at higher level, this shifts into a wizard's advantage.
Gear
1. The fighter needs to invest a significant amount of money into their weapon and armor. Most martial character typically invest over 50-75% of their WBL into their weapon and armor. Meanwhile, a sorcerer and wizards get some or all of their spells automatically as they level, and wizards can scribe from enemy spellbooks that are captured.
2. The fighter is dependant on more physical stats than the wizard. The fighter cares about strength, dex, and con, the wizard only cares about dex and con. This means the wizard is free to get a belt of dex or con or dex+con, whichever they need more without taking the 50% multi stat cost hit. A fighter who wants to boost dex or con as well as strength will pay extra for it.
A level 10 fighter with a +3 weapon and +3 full plate has sunk roughly half their WBL into those 2 items. Throw in a +4 strength item and a +3 cloak of resistance, and you are at 54k. That leaves around 8 k for a ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, and a haversack.
A level 10 wizard can get a +4 int item, a +2 dex/con belt, a +3 cloak of resistance, and still have 25000 gold left. That 25k can be used to buy/make scrolls and wands to be ready for a rainy day. I have noticed that after about level 6 or 7, most of the wizards I play with are carrying a huge selection of "just in case" scrolls. Getting scribe scroll feat for free is a huge boost to versatility. It is especially good for spells from opposition schools, and a handy haversack means that those scrolls and wands are never more than a move action away.
When it comes to gear, wizards can get away with a lot less, and they can craft a lot of their gear at half cost. This is why low magic campaigns actually benefit casters more than martial types.
Feats
A level 10 wizard gets scribe scroll for free plus 5 general feats and 2 bonus feats. Spell focus, greater spell focus, craft wonderous item, and you still have 4 feats left over for what every you want.
A level 10 fighter will have 5 feats + 5 combat feats. A fighter generally wants weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, power attack. On top of that, there are utility feats like disruptive, step up, cleave, lunge, etc to take. Most level 10 fighter builds simply don't have 2 feats to spare for craft arms and armor + master craftsman. Non-fighter martial builds have even less feats to play with.
So you can pretty much expect a wizard to craft their own gear at a 50% discount while still taking all of the feats necessary to be combat effective. Advantage wizard.
Skills
Fighters generally use int as a dump stat, and thus are stuck at minimal skill points. Wizard have int as a prime stat, and as a fringe benefit get lots of extra skill points. It is not uncommon for a wizard to have roughly the same amount of skill points as the party rogue. Advantage wizard.
I removed some childish sniping. Act like adults, please.
Bah. What's wrong with having fun at the expense of a tactless person?
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Low PB doesn't hurt MAD as much as it might seem because of how much cheaper low scores are than high scores. A 14 is not 2 points cheaper than a 16, which is not 2 points cheaper than an 18. That progression ensures that MAD characters can get a decent score in all their relevant abilities even at low PB. Maybe they have to settle for scores in the 14-15 range, but it's a low point-buy.
And a caster party is a lot of fun, but they get too easily ruined by wacky stuff. Will 'o Wisps, for example, can really wreck a caster's day. Fighters might only have one big trick (hitting things until they stop moving), but in a combat-based game it's a pretty good trick.
Besides, I think a party only really needs two full casters, if those two casters are doing their jobs well. More than that is just overloading on an already-rich resource.
Low PB doesn't hurt MAD as much as it might seem because of how much cheaper low scores are than high scores. A 14 is not 2 points cheaper than a 16, which is not 2 points cheaper than an 18. That progression ensures that MAD characters can get a decent score in all their relevant abilities even at low PB. Maybe they have to settle for scores in the 14-15 range, but it's a low point-buy.
And a caster party is a lot of fun, but they get too easily ruined by wacky stuff. Will 'o Wisps, for example, can really wreck a caster's day. Fighters might only have one big trick (hitting things until they stop moving), but in a combat-based game it's a pretty good trick.
Besides, I think a party only really needs two full casters, if those two casters are doing their jobs well. More than that is just overloading on an already-rich resource.
Lyrax, I love you dude.
This is the logic in every sane game I ever played in or heard of.
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Buncha Stuff
I don't think you're wrong, but I'd like to point out a few things.
ACAt 5th level, most stuff does not have a +10 to attack. Often, you'll be up against a large number of creatures with +4 or +6 to attack. When that happens, AC is awesome. I agree that it is less effective against big monsters with single attacks (such as dinosaurs), but it's very effective against a large number of possible encounters. Sure, your encounters will generally be at CR or CR + 1-4. But they will not be composed of single monsters most of the time, and it's very common to face monsters that are individually below one's CR by 1-3.
At any level, most miss chance buffs cost time and actions to cast in combat. They are not nearly as reliable as AC, which is pretty much always 'on'. Armor generally also provides very good flat-footed AC, so it's really nice to have a party member who isn't wiped by an ambush. Ambushes are very, very common and typically happen when the caster has no miss chance spells on.
Gear
Gear-dependent classes find more class-appropriate gear than those who are not. This isn't written into the rules, but it's written into most adventures, and it really is common. Magic weapons are all over the place, and magic armor happens often enough. The wizard advantage isn't as big here as it might first appear.
Melee characters are MAD, but a moderate bonus isn't a terrible thing. A caster who focuses on SoS spells is usually pretty useless unless he sinks a lot of points into that one attribute. This is why I always say the best spells allow no save!
Feats
If the party wizard is crafting magic stuff, he generally won't be such a dick as to charge full price to his fellow party members. If he is, I may stop playing with that person. Crafting feats are not "50% discount for this character", they are "I get to craft items for the party". And if the wizard never learns how to craft magic arms and armor, the warriors will probably still find really good stuff in their journeys because lots and lots of adventures give those out as rewards. The big advantage of crafting isn't the discount, it's that you get to choose which magic items you want to craft.
Skills
It's poor practice to compare Wizards to Fighters here. Clerics, Sorcerers, and Druids are casters, too, and they often have crap for skills; it's better to compare the Fighter to them. Wizards are often close to Rogues, Rangers, Monks, Barbarians and Bards for skill points.
I removed a few more (older) posts that were getting excessively personal.
AC
At level 5, Ant Lion(CR5) +10 to hit. FYI, I just grabbed the first CR5 monster with a single attack.Fighter with 22AC(Full plate +1<2650 gold> with 14 Dex) = 45% chance to be hit
Wizard with AC 14(Wand of Mage Armor<750 gold>) = 85% chance to be hit
Wizard with AC 14 + Mirror Image(3 images) = 21.25% chance to be hit
Wizard with AC 14 + Invisibility = 42.5% chance to be hit IF you can guess the right squareAt level 10, Brachiosaurus(CR10) with a +23 to hit.
A fighter will be around 28AC(Full Plate +3<10650 gold> with 18 dex and +2 from wonderous items) = 80% chance to get hit.
The mage will be around 17 AC(Mage armor<level 1 spell, 10 hour duration>, +3 from wonderous items) = 95% chance to be hit
With mirror image(5 images) = 15.8% chance to be hit
With invisiblity = 47.5% chance to be hit.
With fly = cannot be reached, no chance to be hit.As you go up in CR, to hit bonuses scale faster than AC. Spells that give a miss chance or allow you to evade the enemy completely are much better than anything that merely increases AC. Fighters start out with the edge in this area, but at higher level, this shifts into a wizard's advantage.
Gear
1. The fighter needs to invest a significant amount of money into their weapon and armor. Most martial character typically invest over 50-75% of their WBL into their weapon and armor. Meanwhile, a sorcerer and wizards get some or all of their spells automatically as they level, and wizards can scribe from enemy spellbooks that are captured.2. The fighter is dependant on more physical stats than the wizard. The fighter cares about strength, dex, and con, the wizard only cares about dex and con. This means the wizard is free to get a belt of dex or con or dex+con, whichever they need more without taking the 50% multi stat cost hit. A fighter who wants to boost dex or con as well as strength will pay extra for it.
A level 10 fighter with a +3 weapon and +3 full plate has sunk roughly half their WBL into those 2 items. Throw in...
All you are showing is that spells are a better defense against monsters of CR=lvl with 1 big attack. Its not even a great analysis, since you don't include what happens as you lose images. This pretty much goes against everything that is said for encounter design, where the action economy is important.
The first CR4, Bargiest: 3 attacks at +10.
Fighter AC 22: 45%
Wizard AC 14: 85%
Mirror Imaged, 3 images: 100% chance to at least destroy an image, 21.25% for 1st attack, 28.35 for second, 42.5% for 3rd, 85% next round.
The first CR9, Air Elemental, Greater:
2 attacks, + 21 to hit
Fighter, AC28 (this is pretty low IMO) : 70%
Wizard AC 17: 95%
Mirror Imaged, 5 images: 100% chance to at least destroy an image, 15.8, 19, 23.75, 31.6, 47.5, 95. So on the 3rd round you are being autohit
But how about something with more attacks:
Vrock CR9, 5 attacks +15 w/ heroism SLA
Fighter, AC28: 40%
Wizard AC 17: 95%
Mirror Imaged, 5 Images, same chances as above. Images gone in 1 round
Against monsters that get multiple attacks and are lower CR than you, Mirror Image will not last long unless you actually have a decent AC yourself. Boost your AC into the low 20s as a mage, and that Vroc is not guaranteed to wipe out your images in 1 round.
Also, because damage does not scale as fast as HP, the expected number of times you can be hit and survive goes up as you level. Therefore, to ballance this so that higher level characters are not more survivable against CR appropriate enemies, the to hit must go up. You are only showing that to hit is going up, but what about how much damage the monster deals as a % of your HP? Looking at the monster creation table, you can see that expected damage grows at a rate of 3/cr until level 4, 4 between 4 and 5, 5 between 5 and 15, and 10 at 15 and up. Until you hit level 15, these numbers are less than a d10HD's expected HP growth, but more than a low con d6 character.
All you are showing is that spells are a better defense against monsters of CR=lvl with 1 big attack.
Which is relevant (and not as flawed as you think) because it's very rare for a competently played wizard to just stand there and accept a full melee attack. They have every incentive to move and none to stand still.
And, sure, the Vrock can get two attacks a round (move up and attack once, wizard provokes a second by moving away and casting) but 2 is not 5.
Oh and please do not insult the board's intelligence by mentioning the words "Master Craftsman". That ability does not work that way.
Why don't you think it works?
(Whether it's worth the feats on a fighter is another story.)
Why not let the martialist drop things in one or two rounds and instead focus on the things he can't do better, faster, and easier than the caster can?
[sarc]But don't you know, you pitiful rube, that there's nothing the martial characters can do better, because spell X can duplicate Y![/sarc]
Oh and please do not insult the board's intelligence by mentioning the words "Master Craftsman". That ability does not work that way.
Why don't you think it works?
(Whether it's worth the feats on a fighter is another story.)
RAW.
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats.
So, ignoring the fact you are greatly limited in what you can make to begin with, and ignoring the fact that you're paying a feat and a skill tax on a character who doesn't really have a lot of skills, and who needs all his feats for combat feats, since combat feats are individually so weak...
Let's have a look at some standard gear that every single non caster will want.
Heavy Fort: +5 DC.
Holy: +5 DC.
Vicious: +5 DC.
Haversack: +5 DC.
Str and/or Con item: +5 DC.
Cloak of Resistance: +5 DC.
Natural armor item: +5 DC.Hell, I am hard pressed to find a single item he'd want that isn't +5 DC by virtue of not meeting a requirement. And there's a number of items he can't get at all, like rings (of deflection, or anything really).
So what...
Just going to point out that most characters can sleep through the +5 DC. Not only can you take that +5, but then you add on doing it faster. Its only a DC 35 for the worste items in the game, and you can take 10. Weapons all have level requirements that cannot be bypassed. If you have a +2 from stats, you can always take 10 and go faster to craft the best weapons you can, assuming you keep your crafting skill maxed.
Technically, you can also meet requirements via another caster casting the spell for you -- probably, you'd rather they just took the feat in the first place, but maybe you're in a group where your casters aren't willing to take feats for your benefit or spend their time crafting for you but they'll at least cast a spell you need if you're crafting. That's pretty much the case in one game I play in.
There's also UMD. Not for the poor fighter, probably, but that angle might be workable for, say, a rogue.
In the grand scheme of things, though, +5 DC just doesn't seem that bad to me. The wizard is the unquestioned king of crafting even among casters, but dude with Master Craftsman doesn't seem that far behind the legion of other casters for whom (useful) spell selection is often limited, INT is not a high stat, and Spellcraft may not be a top skill point priority.
Frankly, I think making Spellcraft rolls key to crafting was a terrible idea, because it seems ridiculous to me that the evil wizard is probably a fair bit better at crafting holy swords than the good cleric with good domain, but that's a whole other tangent.
Just going to point out that most characters can sleep through the +5 DC. Not only can you take that +5, but then you add on doing it faster. Its only a DC 35 for the worste items in the game, and you can take 10. Weapons all have level requirements that cannot be bypassed. If you have a +2 from stats, you can always take 10 and go faster to craft the best weapons you can, assuming you keep your crafting skill maxed.
Hell yes, I have a crafting-based character or two, and this is how they work. Besides, in the case of the fighter, they initially just want +X weapons or armour - secondary effects are a bonus. One use of Skill Focus pretty much takes care of the +5 DC anyway, a decent stat takes care of the rest.
No one has low Con. At least not anyone living long enough to be a relevant statistic.
I must point out that according to some of your previous posts, comparatively low Con is all fighters should have because they blow their points elsewhere ...
Buncha StuffI don't think you're wrong, but I'd like to point out a few things.
AC
At 5th level, most stuff does not have a +10 to attack.Correct. Most stuff at 5th level has a higher attack than this. +11, +12, +13, or even +14 are not unheard of, and are quite common simply by looking at CR 5 bestiary stuff. Exactly as written. These creatures also have multiple attacks. Some can even Pounce you, which means another +2 to hit from charging, and a full attack.
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Actually the average is about 10 at this level. Earth elementals have 14's but they always have a higher than average to-hit anyway.
Actually the average is about 10 at this level. Earth elementals have 14's but they always have a higher than average to-hit anyway.Buncha StuffI don't think you're wrong, but I'd like to point out a few things.
AC
At 5th level, most stuff does not have a +10 to attack.Correct. Most stuff at 5th level has a higher attack than this. +11, +12, +13, or even +14 are not unheard of, and are quite common simply by looking at CR 5 bestiary stuff. Exactly as written. These creatures also have multiple attacks. Some can even Pounce you, which means another +2 to hit from charging, and a full attack.
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I don't think it's even that. The average CR 5 monster has +10 to hit (many higher and some lower). But the average CR 5 encounter is often less:
Winter Wolf: +10
Troll: +8, +8, +8
4 wolves: +2, +2, +2, +2
2 Dire wolves: +7, +7
2 wights: +4, +4
2 satyrs: +6, +1, +6, +1
Woolly Rhino: +14
Phase Spider: +10
11 Orcs: 11 at +4
2 Ogres: +7, +7
Ochre Jelly: +5
Nightmare: +9, +4, +4
4 Homunculi: +3, +3, +3, +3
and so on.