Well the AGP has the Bard Detective. Seems like good fit for a Shelock Holmes style Character. That eye for detail giving you 1/2 you level to Perception and Sense Motive check and applying to Diplomacy for information gathering fits well.
I'd say Investigator Rogue over Detective Bard.
I've been toying with the idea...
As I mentioned in a previous post I was thinking Bard/Monk would be good.
Upon further inspection of the APG I realized there is a Monk variant that might work well. The Ki Mystic!
Now hold on... I know the "flavor" may seem off but listen up. The Ki Mystic gains the ability to spend a Ki Point right before making an Ability or Skill check to get a +4 "INSIGHT" bonus on the check. Thats any ability or skill check. That seems promising to me. Thus I suggest at least 3 levels of Monk as this covers both Sherlock's Bare-knuckle boxing and Baritsu training as well as a certain amount of insight.
Looking further at the variants in the APG for the Bard... I think my Sherlock would not go with Detective... but instead Archivist to pick up Lore Master, Jack of All Trades, and Probable Path.
I'd say Investigator Rogue over Detective Bard.
I was torn, as for which one to suggest. On one hand, rogue talents, 8 skill points per level, trap sense all favor a good intellectual rogue. Its actually a nifty play on the rogue, rather than having the rogue descend into the usual role of DPS/backstabber.
But on the other hand, Homes is constantly doing the "j'accuse" thing where he lays out the details of the crime, which is handled nicely by the detective bard. And then there is the "magic". In a world where arcane magic is prominent, would homes take to studying it, much like he takes to science in the stories? All bent towards the pursuit of criminals?
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Technically he'd be an Aristocrat/Expert in a more modern setting, but in a fantasy setting, I think he would definatly study magick. He has the mind for it, and it is a very intelectual field of study. I was never sure why wizards didnt get very many skill points as they are supposed to be learned persons of study... or Men of Knowledge... etc...
Yes Holmes according to the books did have a drug problem, though I think it might have been heroin.
It was cocaine. In fact, the line from the recent movie, where Watson tells Holmes, "You do realize that what you've been taking is for eye surgery?" is an oblique reference. Cocaine was used at the time to make patients' eyes grow wider and reduce their blink response.
My wife is actually playing a character based upon both Holmes and Irene Adler as portrayed in the recent movie. The character conceit is that she is secretly their child (or, rather, the child of Holmes/Adler analogues in the campaign), and has inherited many of their characteristics. She is going straight rogue, with no archetype, and it's working very well. She gets a godawful number of skill points per level (14!) and has almost all knowledges (except the purely magical ones: arcane and planes). Even without the class skill bonus, she gets at least a +5 on all of the knowledges she took, so that she can take 10 and routinely get a 15.
For my money, rogue is the way to go. Max Int, go with human, and keep taking skill points as your favored class bonus.
My wife is actually playing a character based upon both Holmes and Irene Adler as portrayed in the recent movie. The character conceit is that she is secretly their child (or, rather, the child of Holmes/Adler analogues in the campaign), and has inherited many of their characteristics. She is going straight rogue, with no archetype, and it's working very well. She gets a godawful number of skill points per level (14!) and has almost all knowledges (except the purely magical ones: arcane and planes). Even without the class skill bonus, she gets at least a +5 on all of the knowledges she took, so that she can take 10 and routinely get a 15.
For my money, rogue is the way to go. Max Int, go with human, and keep taking skill points as your favored class bonus.
There are even Traits that give you a couple Knowledge class skills. And don't forget the APG Cosmopolitan feat. It adds 2 class skills of Int/Wis/Cha to your list of class skills.
I'd say Investigator Rogue over Detective Bard.I was torn, as for which one to suggest. On one hand, rogue talents, 8 skill points per level, trap sense all favor a good intellectual rogue. Its actually a nifty play on the rogue, rather than having the rogue descend into the usual role of DPS/backstabber.
But on the other hand, Homes is constantly doing the "j'accuse" thing where he lays out the details of the crime, which is handled nicely by the detective bard. And then there is the "magic". In a world where arcane magic is prominent, would homes take to studying it, much like he takes to science in the stories? All bent towards the pursuit of criminals?
Bards don't study magic, they know magic. Rogues study minor magics that benefit them.
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Why not Inquisitor of Irori with the knowledge domain (or thought subdomain)? Track, half level on intimidate and sense motive, proficiency with unarmed strike, detect alignment, discern lies, not to mention quite a few awesome spells that could help. I mean, they even get an ability called "Exploit weakness" that could fit Holmes pretty well.
Well the AGP has the Bard Detective. Seems like good fit for a Shelock Holmes style Character. That eye for detail giving you 1/2 you level to Perception and Sense Motive check and applying to Diplomacy for information gathering fits well.
I've been toying back and forth between Bard Detective and Rogue investigator... I'm trying for the exact same concept as OP...
I finally decided on the Bard build... I like the 'eye for detail' and the +3 for All Knowledge skills being Class skills were the deciding factor...
If I went rogue I was thinking one level of diviner just to get the class skills and a few 'spell like observation powers' but the bard covers it rather nicely too...
One thing I've talked to my DM about... is that all the npcs are going to get their own index card of 'physical traits/clues' that I can pick up when examine crime scenes...
You see a foot print about 12 inches long, based on the stride he's probably 6'2'' and favors his left leg... etc.
so she doesnt' have to tell me everything, and then I tell the rest of the party... if i make my roll, she'll just hand me the card, and I start orating!
REALLY looking forward to that game :)
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I guess it's bad that my mental image of Sherlock Holmes is from that episode where Data plays him on TNG.
But a Sherlock Holmes can be any number of things for your campaign. Have your detective Character be what sutes you play style and setting.
That's what I see, too.
Any of the "investigator" variants of bard, ranger or rogue could work. Bard and wizard win for knowledge, rogue for raw skill points, and both the master spy and loremaster prestige classes offer some neat ways to be slick and catch clues others would miss. Arcane trickster could also work.
How magical is your Sherlock?
Here's my stab at such a character ...
ASHFORD VAHN CR 4
Male Human Bard (Detective) 3 Rogue (Investigator) 2
CG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Hero Points 1
Init +2; Senses Perception +14
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DEFENSE
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AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10. . (+2 Dex)
hp 50 (5d8+10)
Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +5
Defensive Abilities Evasion
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee Rapier +5 (1d6+1/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +5 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Bardic Performance (standard action) (10 rounds/da, Bardic Performance: Countersong, Bardic Performance: Distraction, Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 13), Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +2, Sneak Attack +1d6
Bard (Detective) Spells Known (CL 3, +4 melee touch, +5 ranged touch):
1 (4/day) Comprehend Languages, Identify, Borrow Skill, Detect Secret Doors
0 (at will) Read Magic, Open/Close (DC 12), Know Direction, Message, Ghost Sound (DC 12), Detect Magic, Sift
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STATISTICS
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Str 13, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 14
Base Atk +3; CMB +4; CMD 16
Feats Alertness, Bard Weapon Proficiencies, Extra Rogue Talent, Rogue Weapon Proficiencies, Suspicious Eye, Weapon Finesse
Traits Aspiring Bard: Perform: String Instruments, Conspiracy Hunter: Perception
Skills Appraise +6, Bluff +8, Climb +5, Diplomacy +8, Disable Device +6, Disguise +8, Escape Artist +6, Intimidate +6, Knowledge: Arcana +6, Knowledge: Geography +6, Knowledge: History +8, Knowledge: Local +8, Knowledge: Nobility +7, Knowledge: The Planes +6, Linguistics +8, Perception +14, Perform: Act +6, Perform: String Instruments +8, Profession: Embalmer +6, Profession: Gambler +6, Profession: Librarian +6, Sense Motive +15, Sleight of Hand +6, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +7, Swim +5, Use Magic Device +6 Modifiers Follow Clues, Follow Up, Hard to Fool (1/day)
Languages Elven, Grand Lodge Slang, Osiriani (Ancient), Taldane (Common), Tien, Varisian
SQ Arcane Insight (Ex), Bardic Performance: Careful Teamwork +1 (Su), Eye for Detail +1 (Ex), Hero Points (1)
Combat Gear Rapier, Leather; Other Gear: Masterwork Lute
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Arcane Insight (Ex) +4 save vs. illusions, +4 caster level vs. disguise and divination protections.
Aspiring Bard: Perform: String Instruments You gain a +1 trait bonus to one category of Perform checks and a +2 trait bonus to any Knowledge (local) checks that deal with the Oppara music scene.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (10 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Careful Teamwork +1 (Su) Bonuses to initiative, perception, disable device and against traps or while flat-footed.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (DC 13) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Competence +2 (Su) +2 competence bonus for one ally on a skill check.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Eye for Detail +1 (Ex) You add half your bard level to Knowledge (local), Perception, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy(Gather Information) checks.
Follow Clues (Ex) A rogue with this talent can use Perception to follow tracks as per the Survival skill.
Follow Up (Ex) Make two Gather Information checks in the time normally required for one.
Hard to Fool (1/day) (Ex) 1/day roll 2d20 for Sense Motive and take the better result.
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Sneak Attack +1d6 +1d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
From the chronicles of Edwin Haskins, Pathfinder Chronicler and former Andoran Militia Officer ...
"When I first met Ashford Vahn, I was appalled. You see, I'd traveled far to visit with my Uncle Wilhem and met Ashford at his estate. At first I observed the man, realizing quite quickly that he had the manners of a hobgoblin, but yet I found him fascinating. But nonetheless, I found myself asking more questions as time went on. Why was he in my Uncle's company? Why did he dress so strangely? Who was he?
Finally, I'd had enough and approached the man. But, before I could even ask a question, he said: 'Mister Edwin Haskins, nephew of Sir Wilhem Haskins, correct? It's a shame the terrors that went on in Andoran, eh? I try and stay away from such things, if you ask me. But then you didn't, did you? Do you tend to carry it so heavily in your hands? It's not good for your them, you know.'
Stunned, I could only get out 'I-I'm sorry? What do you mean?'
'You're sword, mate,' he said, barely breaking any emotion. 'You should invest in a better sheath ... it's obvious that the one you had wasn't made well enough, eh?'
How did he know such things? Had my uncle told him about me? Looking him straight in the eyes, I finally blurted out, 'Excuse me, but just who the bloody hell are you?'
To which he replied only, 'Ashford Vahn.' Little did I know what that name would come to be synonymous with later ...
The problem I have with the Detective archetype for playing Sherlock Holmes is that it does away with Bardic Knowledge, and it's Holmes' encyclopedic knowledge, in part, that makes him such an insightful detective. If I were to recommend any levels in Bard, it would be either a dip into the standard bard, or up to 5 levels of the Archivist archetype. Rely on the Investigator Rogue for his... well, investigative abilities.
In addition, given Holmes' affinity for technology, A 1-level dip into the Alchemist class might enhance the Holmesian flavor of a character, and the feat Amateur Gunslinger also seems to fit the character concept.
I at first liked the Urban Ranger suggestion someone made a while back, but I think the Investigator rogue covers it better.
I'd definitely recommend the Leadership feat at some point -- the cohort is Watson, the followers the Baker Street Irregulars.
I'd like a whole party of investigators, based on Scooby, Shaggy and the gang.
I'm not sure you're going to get much out of Weapon Finess with a 14 dex. I'd suggest swapping it out for Skill Focus: Perception.
I'd like a whole party of investigators, based on Scooby, Shaggy and the gang.
Shaggy's a druid, Scooby's his animal companion, with a boosted INT to give him 1 language. Fred's a Trapsmith archetype rogue. Velma's a Detective bard, and Daphne's a Court Bard.
'The seven percent solution' movie rocks.
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Holmes liked his opium, though IIRC he tended to basically just over indulge when he was mentally bored. I'd think something like a rogue or bard like others have said, though as a second kind of spin a divination kind of wizard or sorc. would be pretty neat. He'd make a neat psion as well being so mentally ahead of his peers.
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Klaatu barata, nikto! Arise.
Funny how things go, I recently rewatched the second new "Explosion" Holmes movie, considered coming up with a PFS Sherlock character, saw one interpretation in our local scene done as a skills-heavy bard that sort of left me wanting for the more martial aspects of the character and then this thread popped up in my search results.
My question is this then, how would you, as a frequent visitor to Advice and maybe even as a PFS participant, go about building a combative investigator nowadays? Any iteration is fine, though the RDJ version is very tempting(partly because there's a lot of combat in the scenarios).
I thought about a Martial Artist monk, since the lack of alignment restriction, unarmed oomph galore and a 4th level ability that serves well to represent the whole combat intuitition schtick Explosion Holmes does(which owes, in my mind, more to the director than the character), but making one with a high intelligence score kind of guts its prowess. Then there's the Archeologist bard, but it's only so-so without being a Half-Elf. Inquisitor's have it all, except that I can't shake of the feeling of playing Eisenhorn or Alexander Andersson A kensai concentrating on sword cane hijinx perhaps? An urban ranger? Maybe you know better.
A Moriarty is fine too. :P
Bard, Rogue or Inquisitor.
Make sure you have high Int and high Wisdom. (14 each?).
Bard or inquisitor at least one level so you can cast Sift at-will, I can't imagine a Pathfinder based Holmes without that spell.
The archaeologist archetype for bard works well too, no bardic performance stuff and gain a lot of rogue abilities.
Looking I would also take 4 levels of monk with the martial artist archetype, it gets rid of some of the mystic stuff and you can be any alignment.
Another great spell to take with bard is disguise self.
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I quite like the Hollywood films, they're fun.
But, they're nothing to do with Sherlock Holmes.
They're Victorian action romps which happen to have used the name Sherlock Holmes for advertising purposes.
If you don't want to read the books (which are great) then watch the Jermey Brett TV version for a taste of the Homles created by Arthur Conan Doyle. Even the modern BBC version is truer to Holmes than the films.
The idea of Holmes running out of a burning building as it explodes, landing on a boat and punching a villain's lights out... hmmm. That's Bond, isn't it?
Book Sherlock also did more cocaine.
Now I have that Buck Cherry song stuck in my head. ;-)
An urban ranger, possibly with some rogue levels for some additional class skills.
Bard with perform: explanatory monologue
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To all those suggesting it, Sherlock Holmes cannot be a bard. It's not possible:
Dr. Watson's summary list of Sherlock Holmes's strengths and weaknesses:
"1. Knowledge of Literature: Nil.
2. Knowledge of Philosophy: Nil.
3. Knowledge of Astronomy: Nil.
4. Knowledge of Politics: Feeble.
5. Knowledge of Botany: Variable. Well up in belladonna, opium, and poisons generally. Knows nothing of practical gardening.
5. Knowledge of Geology: Practical but limited. Tells at a glance different soils from each other. After walks has shown me splashes upon his trousers, and told me by their colour and consistence in what part of London he had received them.
7. Knowledge of Chemistry: Profound.
8. Knowledge of Anatomy: Accurate but unsystematic.
9. Knowledge of Sensational Literature: Immense. He appears to know every detail of every horror perpetrated in the century.
10. Plays the violin well.
11. Is an expert singlestick player, boxer, and swordsman.
12. Has a good practical knowledge of British law.
Rogue/monk to be sure. Bardic Knowledge in fact breaks the concept.
I would recommend my David Xanatos build:
alchemist psychonaut/mindchemyst
cognatogens = morphium (or coaine?)
perfect recall = yes
may take skill focus digiuse, sense motive as discovery, check
and moment of prescience with a buttload of pearls of power 5
perception, well as he said to watson "you see but you do not observe", so it's not about perception as listen or spot. The real perception is interpretation, done with pure intelligence or perhaps augury.
The bombs do their majory of damage by int-bonus, so be sure do take some smoke bombs which seems to go well with the general idea.
For some hand on hand fighting just moment of prescience the whole damn thing.
Foresight at very high lvl is also worth mentioning.
edit: perhaps to remind, perfect recall = double your int bonus to int checks to remember and to all knowledge skills, with 20 starting int, +8 alchemical bonus +6 magic item +1from age, +3 from lvls, we are looking at quite a nice bonus :-)
I would recommend my David Xanatos build:
alchemist psychonaut/mindchemyst
cognatogens = morphium (or coaine?)
perfect recall = yes
may take skill focus digiuse, sense motive as discovery, check
and moment of prescience with a buttload of pearls of power 5perception, well as he said to watson "you see but you do not observe", so it's not about perception as listen or spot. The real perception is interpretation, done with pure intelligence or perhaps augury.
The bombs do their majory of damage by int-bonus, so be sure do take some smoke bombs which seems to go well with the general idea.
For some hand on hand fighting just moment of prescience the whole damn thing.Foresight at very high lvl is also worth mentioning.
Bonus points for bringing up one of my favorite characters.
To all those suggesting it, Sherlock Holmes cannot be a bard. It's not possible:
Rogue/monk to be sure.Dr. Watson's summary list of Sherlock Holmes's strengths and weaknesses:
"1. Knowledge of Literature: Nil.
2. Knowledge of Philosophy: Nil.
3. Knowledge of Astronomy: Nil.
4. Knowledge of Politics: Feeble.
5. Knowledge of Botany: Variable. Well up in belladonna, opium, and poisons generally. Knows nothing of practical gardening.
5. Knowledge of Geology: Practical but limited. Tells at a glance different soils from each other. After walks has shown me splashes upon his trousers, and told me by their colour and consistence in what part of London he had received them.
7. Knowledge of Chemistry: Profound.
8. Knowledge of Anatomy: Accurate but unsystematic.
9. Knowledge of Sensational Literature: Immense. He appears to know every detail of every horror perpetrated in the century.
10. Plays the violin well.
11. Is an expert singlestick player, boxer, and swordsman.
12. Has a good practical knowledge of British law.
Good point that Holmes was ignorant in many aspects. That said we are talkning about a Pathfinder based Holmes.
Bardic Knowledge in fact breaks the concept.
Wrong. It is Pathfinder that breaks the concept.
If you want to play "the real" Sherlock Holms you can't use Pathfinder.Its skill system- including skill consolidation, how different topics of knowledge has been brought under knowledge skill X and not Y, etc), its lack of skills like research, Forensic science, gather information, knowledge law, its use of magic, its use of monsters, its class system, its game mechanics, etc.
That Pathfinder, unlike Call of Cthulhu, is not adapted to a our world is in fact a problem. The setting of setting of Call of Cthulhu is just one or two decades later than Sherlock's so it is almost a perfect match and its skill system and game mechanics are better suited for the task of building a Sherlock Holmes.
My point is, if you build Sherlock using Pathfinder you are obviously building a Pathfinder based Holmes. A fun and useful character based on Sherlock Holmes in a Pathfinder game. Based on meaning, inspired by, not an exact mechanical match of Sherlock Holmes.
So next thing: What and who defies Sherlock?
Is it the Sherlock that Dr. Watson is suppose to have described in A Study in Scarlet or is it the Sherlock that people have seen on TV/films? And as far as I can recall the description of Holmes in the books/short stories are not always consistent.
BTW,
Holmes was a gunslinger as well.
There are bards without Bardic Knowledge
Even if Bardic Knowledge breaks the concept, any class you pick will break the concept, so you might as well play a bard......... or a rogue or an expert, or a fighter with improved unarmed strike and lots of skills and skill focus perception and skill focus heal (if your DM use heal for Forensic science). or a ranger, or an Inquisitor, or a wizard and multiclass until you are blue in the face.
To me, Sherlock was never anything like a monk, and he was far from lawful. Fighter/Gunslinger/Rogue could be an option, but I can see why mechanically monk would fit. No armor, etc.
But me, I would probably play Inquisitor or some bard archetype.
Perhaps with some fighter (or Gunslinger) level(s). And perhaps with some rogue level(s).
The Amateur Gunslinger feat covers the majority of Holmes's firearms proficiency. Giving Holmes the Rich Parents trait covers the cost of a "Coat Pistol" from level one.
I think I'm still leaning towards Monk/Bard for any Holmes equivalent that I might play. The Martial Artist archtype has some nice possibilities for making a more Robert Downey Jr. type movie Holmes and helps get past the whole "Lawful" thing most people seem to have a problem with.
I'd be more inclined to lean towards a Fighter or Gunslinger/ Chirurgeon (Alchemist) build for Watson.
Maybe rogue, with all Knowledge skills (or at least all the appropriate ones), Improved Unarmed Strike, and the Combat Expertise feat tree, especially Improved and Greater Feint. He is sneak attacking with those RDJr type blows.
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Improved Feint only gets you one attack worth of sneak attacks, so clearly something else is at work there, but it's a nice idea anyhow. :D
Maybe it's one of those things that has no clear answer. Depending on the iteration, Holmes is a true Schrödinger's investigator, writers can give him or her suprising insight into a wide variety of fields and crafts, turn the character into an amateur spy on a whim, etc. Watson would likely be far easier to to in PF, since his or her skillset and expertise is very much concrete. An ex-soldier serving as a doctor, with extraordinary, as opposed to superhuman, mental and perceptive faculties.
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Maybe rogue, with all Knowledge skills (or at least all the appropriate ones), Improved Unarmed Strike, and the Combat Expertise feat tree, especially Improved and Greater Feint. He is sneak attacking with those RDJr type blows.
In the movies when Holmes does his "Holmesvision" I'm thinking the Martial Artist's ...
Pain Points (Ex): At 3rd level, a martial artist's advanced knowledge of humanoid anatomy grants a +1 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls and increases the DC of his stunning fist and quivering palm by 1. This ability replaces still mind.
and
Exploit Weakness (Ex): At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the martial artist gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls until the end of his turn, and any attacks he makes until the end of his turn ignore the creature or object's DR or hardness.
A martial artist may instead use this ability as a swift action to analyze the movements and expressions of one creature within 30 feet, granting a bonus on Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against that opponent equal to 1/2 his monk level until the start of his next turn.
This ability replaces ki pool.
... both also seem to fit a RDJr style Holmes doing a stunning blow followed up by a few finishers or defending himself.
Greater Feint leaves the target flat-footed for 1 round, I do believe.
Also, I think there is an elven favored class option that lets a rogue get additional uses of minor magic and major magic talents. If major magic is used for truestrike, then a high level elven rogue Sherlock could have 1 + 1/2 his level truestrikes per day. Not too shabby.
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Greater Feint leaves the target flat-footed for 1 round, I do believe.
Correct! You've read your rules, but the act of feinting is still a move action, meaning you only get your standard action to attack+possible aaos.
Being able to do sneak attack with aaos would support some kind of combat style build though. Must investigate further.
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Has no one really cited the Investigator from the ACG Playtest yet? They literally based him off Sherlock Holmes...
Has no one really cited the Investigator from the ACG Playtest yet? They literally based him off Sherlock Holmes...
This thread is from 2010.
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Has no one really cited the Investigator from the ACG Playtest yet? They literally based him off Sherlock Holmes...This thread is from 2010.
Oh, the irony of not noticing such a clue.
We can fix this with science though.