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I was thinking of making a character inspired by Sherlock Holmes for a Pathfinder game.
How might i "simulate" Sherlock Holmes with character classes feats and traits?
Thanks
Tell us what your vision of Sherlock Holmes is.
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Either Rogue or Bard, surely... Holmes's near encyclopedic knowledge of so many aspects of life would point toward bard. He'd play the violin, of course, although oratory would be another Perform skill option.
If you have the APG, the "detective" archetype for Bard would be almost mandatory here.
You'd need amazing perception, so as to not miss clues...
You'd, of course, need to be a drug addict of some type...
I could go on...?
Either Rogue or Bard, surely... Holmes's near encyclopedic knowledge of so many aspects of life would point toward bard. He'd play the violin, of course, although oratory would be another Perform skill option.
If you have the APG, the "detective" archetype for Bard would be almost mandatory here.
You'd need amazing perception, so as to not miss clues...
You'd, of course, need to be a drug addict of some type...
I could go on...?
Was that just the movie version that had all the "issues"? I never read the books.
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Was that just the movie version that had all the "issues"? I never read the books.Either Rogue or Bard, surely... Holmes's near encyclopedic knowledge of so many aspects of life would point toward bard. He'd play the violin, of course, although oratory would be another Perform skill option.
If you have the APG, the "detective" archetype for Bard would be almost mandatory here.
You'd need amazing perception, so as to not miss clues...
You'd, of course, need to be a drug addict of some type...
I could go on...?
If you have the time you should read them - you can get them for free
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Well I have been watching the new Sherlock murder mystery series on PBS where Sherlock has been “re envisioned “ for the current times.
I enjoyed his ability to make observations, draw deductions etc.
I know there are often problems with converting a character in literature to Pathfinder. When you have a “hero” capable of doing such a broad range of things, invariably you have to choose to loose some things in the translation in order to fit a hero who can take care of almost everything to a character who has a specialty and is part of a team.
What is my vision for Sherlock? I’m not sure yet. I guess I want to hone in on Sherlock’s perspicacity, his ability to make observations, deductions, and his encyclopedic knowledge. While he has no magic in the books, I wouldn’t be opposed to him being a spell caster.
Ill look up the Bard Archetypes in the APG.
I seem to remember when he got bored, because of the lack of cases, Didn’t Sherlock use cocaine? I seem to remember he was addicted to it.
Thanks for your thoughts, Any other ideas would be very appreciated. thanks
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I was thinking of making a character inspired by Sherlock Holmes for a Pathfinder game.
How might i "simulate" Sherlock Holmes with character classes feats and traits?
Thanks
One thing you could do would be to work out with your GM the ability to make up "facts" during the game, like when an NPC shows up and you declare he's from Numeria because of the smell of a particular oil used in his hair. That would go a long way to making him like Sherlock beyond just the skills and feats.
Hyrum.
Yes Holmes according to the books did have a drug problem, though I think it might have been heroin.
As far as what class, I would have to go with rogue. Frankly most of the bard song mechanics, and all of the spellcasting abilities just don't feel very Sherlock Holmes to me. A high Int is a must, and a high Str also is fairly by the book. Holmes was known to perform feats of strength and I can remember a number of times when he fought with fists or a melee weapon.
Use the investigator rogue out of the APG. Most rogue abilities fit well with who I think of when I think Sherlock Holmes. Sneak attack, that is just his encyclopedic knowledge of anatomy. Skills go with lots of knowledge skills, disguise (he was a master of disguise), sense motive, and perception.
Finally in my opinion the very best Sherlock Holmes as far as tv/movie was Jeremy Brett who did many episodes for a British television company during the 1980's. You can now watch them streaming with Netflix.
I was thinking of making a character inspired by Sherlock Holmes for a Pathfinder game.
How might i "simulate" Sherlock Holmes with character classes feats and traits?
Thanks
One thing you could do would be to work out with your GM the ability to make up "facts" during the game, like when an NPC shows up and you declare he's from Numeria because of the smell of a particular oil used in his hair. That would go a long way to making him like Sherlock beyond just the skills and feats.
Hyrum.
This could easily be simulated with the Knowledge (Local) skill.
I think most important to any version of Sherlock is his extremely developed Perception. His ability to observe the particulars of any case is what sets him apart. This and his encyclopedic knowledge to identify and place those particulars in a logical order.
Allot of the burden of such a character would be placed on the DM. This could require a fair bit more bookwork.
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*Snip*
Finally in my opinion the very best Sherlock Holmes as far as tv/movie was Jeremy Brett who did many episodes for a British television company during the 1980's. You can now watch them streaming with Netflix.
I also believe Brett did a wonderful job. You can also catch many of the BBC episodes on YouTube.
I agree Brett is my favorite Holmes, but in the recent film I think Downey Jr did a great job as well. I also think rogue (investigater) would be a great class after all he is better at what the criminals do then they are.
There is a great scene when he is pitfighting were the film slows and he goes through all he is planning to do and his opponents options and replies to his actions, this could really work well to represent sneak attack
If you wanted to give him a fantasy feel then I would also give him levels of wizard, after all that reading and knowledge then alittle bit of magic is going to come easy to him and almost by accident if you like. It all depends on how you envision him best for your game sort of low magic/fantasy or high magic/fantasy.
As for the other things like his drug use he is an avid smoker of the pipe, sometimes cigeretes and cigars. He injects cocain and occasionally morphin. You can choose to included them or not its you version.
Well I have been watching the new Sherlock murder mystery series on PBS where Sherlock has been “re envisioned “ for the current times.
Ah yes... the BBC show, with Dr. Watson being a soldier (medical officer), wounded in the Afghanistan invasion.
I'd say that it's fully expected that a Pathfinder Sherlock would use magic like the current modern day Sherlock would use technology. It's there, it's an option, it facilitates performing his tasks, so yeah.. why not?
The only problem with Sherlock as a Bard is that it's based around Charisma. As a "high functioning sociopath" who's called a "freak" and feared that he might one day get bored and be found doing the killing himself... well.. yeah, I don't think Charisma was his strong point.
High Wisdom, high Intelligence. Decent physical stats, but they don't have to be spectacular (having levels gives enough BAB to be considered "powerful enough" against much lower level people).
The Investigator Rogue archetype offers a lot of nice options: the follow up ability, and a number of nice talents (coax information, follow clues, hard to fool and thoughtful reexamination). That's a lot of skill swapping and rerolls for most of the stuff that he does.
If you are looking for a non-magical, non-charisma based option for Sherlock in Pathfinder, I'd go with the rogue archetype.
The Detective Bard option gives you useful spells, and abilities that are more "magic-oriented". Considering the Bard can get heal spells, it might make a good option for your Dr Watson cohort. He wasn't too bad at the "noticing things", just didn't have Sherlock's ability to "figure it out".
Needing Watson around for his abilities gives a good excuse to have him there too.
As for the other things like his drug use he is an avid smoker of the pipe, sometimes cigeretes and cigars. He injects cocain and occasionally morphin. You can choose to included them or not its you version.
Heh, in the latest modernization, he's using a patch... although sometimes the situation calls for a "three patch problem"...
Well in this day and age they cant have him smoking can the LOL. As for the drugs well thats just a no, no isnt it everyone is clean cut nowadays. Really I dont think its a major thing as in latter books Watson claims to have 'cured' Holmes of his drug addiction.
I did like the 'some times its a 3 patch problem' though :)
Though bards use charisma, Sherlock doesn't need an overly high charisma. He'd be better off with a high intelligence so that his knowledge checks are through the roof.
Check out the Detective bard archetype in the APG. Eye for Detail is a bit of a trade off, but otherwise its pretty darn good. Give him a cane sword, an armored coat, and a razor whit.
One thing about the drug use...
If I remember correctly, Sherlock would use drugs as a means to stave off boredom. This would happen often as it was hard for him to find a case that was challenging enough. He used a weakened solution of cocaine and sometimes morphine but showed a distaste for opium.
So if you include drug use it would most likely just be some sort of means to stimulate his brain slightly but nothing that would keep him from functioning completely.
If he was on a case... I believe that Sherlock would go without drugs completely and would not even eat. His only focus being the case.
Another thought...
An interesting interpretation of Holmes might be done with a Monk. It was written that Holmes studied the art of Bartitsu which is a mixed martial art developed by a fellow called Edward William Barton-Wright.
Even if Monks do not have all knowledges as class skills they do get Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), and Swim (Str).
One would only need to pick up some sort of Education feat. I believe there are several 3.5 variations that make all knowledge skills as class skills.
Do bear in mind that at the time his use of cocaine was legal in the UK and readily available from chemists.
I agree Nermal. It was a diffrent age even as we have seen things change so far in our life time. I think it wasnt suppose to be a great part of the character but something to give him more character, thats why we see the 'cure' later as opinions changed and people started to focus on the drug use as being a 'bad role model'. i think the other facets of the character far out way this.
P.S thats is also why in later versions him being portrayed as using heroin was wrong as this was also illegal back then and the point was he only used legal stuff, also why I think it was a minor point just as in later times you get alcaholic detectives. My 2cp.
Well I have been watching the new Sherlock murder mystery series on PBS where Sherlock has been “re envisioned “ for the current times.Ah yes... the BBC show, with Dr. Watson being a soldier (medical officer), wounded in the Afghanistan invasion.
This is not new. The orriginal Watson was a war veteran from wars in that region. he was one of the few marksmen better than Sherlock, and always kept his service revolver on him. Scherlock on the other hand was proficient with at least a 1/2 dozen forms or martial arts, including explicitly mentioned Barjitsu, fencing, as well as him being a amature champion bare nuckle boxer.
I would model Scherlock as part a multiclass. Probably try something silly like Ranger/Rogue/Monk. High Int and Wis, moderate charisma. He had a force of personality behind him, even if he didn't care about social norms. Skill focus in perception and knowledge local.
Sherlock Holmes injects Heroin, a 7% solution. When he is bored. He smoaks sigaretts, pipe or cigar. Ocasionally. He is a master pugilist (boxing) and a master of Bartitsu witch is a form of Jujitsu that the British used in the 1800's.
Jeremy Brett is the Best Sherlock Holmes. That verson is adapted straight out of the books and done as authenticlly as possible.
The Pathfinder Sherlock is Verian Jeggare an Half Elven Aristocrat wizzard. Mind I would have gone Aristocrat Bard Myself :) for my own style of Holmsian Detective :) as its more like the original ;)
Well I have been watching the new Sherlock murder mystery series on PBS where Sherlock has been “re envisioned “ for the current times.Ah yes... the BBC show, with Dr. Watson being a soldier (medical officer), wounded in the Afghanistan invasion.
This is not new. The orriginal Watson was a war veteran from wars in that region. he was one of the few marksmen better than Sherlock, and always kept his service revolver on him. Scherlock on the other hand was proficient with at least a 1/2 dozen forms or martial arts, including explicitly mentioned Barjitsu, fencing, as well as him being a amature champion bare nuckle boxer.
I would model Scherlock as part a multiclass. Probably try something silly like Ranger/Rogue/Monk. High Int and Wis, moderate charisma. He had a force of personality behind him, even if he didn't care about social norms. Skill focus in perception and knowledge local.
Rogue/Monk I could see. Not very silly there. Just having good ranks in Survival is good enough to pass for Sherlocks ability to track.
I guess of course this would depend on what part of the timeline you are modeling your Sherlock. After his "death" at the waterfall Sherlock did spend a large amount of time exploring and thus could have picked up traditional Ranger skills then.
A Urban Ranger variant would also work well for Sherlocks ability in a city.
I was thinking of making a character inspired by Sherlock Holmes for a Pathfinder game.
How might i "simulate" Sherlock Holmes with character classes feats and traits?
Thanks
If your GM lets you use 3.5 sources, there is an Investigate feat from the Eberron CS that lets you find and analyze clues with Search (now Perception). Seems like it could go a long way to helping simulate the "Sherlock Scan", as it were.
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You have to understand the context of Holmes' fighting skills.
He barely ever gets in a scrap. Watson, who hero-worships Holmes, tells us on many occasions that he is a great fencer/boxer/sharpshooter etc. but we rarely ever see it.
So to play Holmes I would suggest a person who is theoretically skilled in combat (weapon finesse, perhaps the feat that adds int. damage to ranged attacks) but does not get into much combat, leaving that to his cleric cohort.
Suits a rogue, especially as Watson's gushing fanboy stuff is of the 'killed a man with a single blow' variety, rather than raving about Holmes slogging it out. Perhaps a dip into monk would do as he fights with fists more than anything else.
Can't see Holmes as Lawful though (sorry, not especially eager to open this can of worms).
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Sherlock Holmes injects Heroin, a 7% solution.
You're correct about the 7% solution, but it was cocaine, not heroin.
Well I have been watching the new Sherlock murder mystery series on PBS where Sherlock has been “re envisioned “ for the current times.Ah yes... the BBC show, with Dr. Watson being a soldier (medical officer), wounded in the Afghanistan invasion.
This is not new. The orriginal Watson was a war veteran from wars in that region. he was one of the few marksmen better than Sherlock, and always kept his service revolver on him. Scherlock on the other hand was proficient with at least a 1/2 dozen forms or martial arts, including explicitly mentioned Barjitsu, fencing, as well as him being a amature champion bare nuckle boxer.
I would model Scherlock as part a multiclass. Probably try something silly like Ranger/Rogue/Monk. High Int and Wis, moderate charisma. He had a force of personality behind him, even if he didn't care about social norms. Skill focus in perception and knowledge local.
Rogue/Monk I could see. Not very silly there. Just having good ranks in Survival is good enough to pass for Sherlocks ability to track.
I guess of course this would depend on what part of the timeline you are modeling your Sherlock. After his "death" at the waterfall Sherlock did spend a large amount of time exploring and thus could have picked up traditional Ranger skills then.
A Urban Ranger variant would also work well for Sherlocks ability in a city.
I was thinking ranger more for picking up the martial weapon profficiencies while still maintaining the skill points.
Bardic Lore's a pretty big argument for bard, either way
Skill Focus: Perception
SF: Knowledge: Local
SF: Sense Motive
Inquisitor (if I recall the name properly)Holmes is adept at melee with barjutsu, so maybe a level of fighter for WF for some swordcane or whatnot.
Honestly...
Another argument for bard is the fact that Sherlock is always playing that violin. It'd also give him a sick bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy thanks to the Versatile Performance ability.
The biggest argument though is Lore Master. Being able to "take 10" on any knowledge skill he has ranks in... seems so Sherlock Holmes.
I'm starting to think Bard/Monk for any Sherlock inspired character I create.
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true, I mean it does fit and all, but the violin is just icing on the cake. The only issue I see is, that I have trouble seeing him cast spells...but I guess in this setting, he'd need to have that to work with, since the 3.5 Archivist's dark knowledge and the knowledge domain feat don't exist here.
The Eberron Campaign Setting has feats for Urban Tracking (which is used to use Gather Information (now Diplomacy) about where someone is, etc. There is also a feat called Investigate which allows a Search check (now Perception) to find clues. My chaos gnome dragon shaman has them, and he uses them to be a wannabe Sherlock Holmes.
I would go with Rogue, with maybe the APG Cosmopolitatrn feat to get some additional Knowledge skills (history and maybe geology or nobility or religion).
I just got done reading "Shadows over Baker Street," which imagines Sherlock Holmes in the Cthulu Mythos.
true, I mean it does fit and all, but the violin is just icing on the cake. The only issue I see is, that I have trouble seeing him cast spells...but I guess in this setting, he'd need to have that to work with, since the 3.5 Archivist's dark knowledge and the knowledge domain feat don't exist here.
If you pick mostly self-buff spells you can explain those away. Spells such as disguise self, identify, and undetectable alignment really fit the character.
If you're going to create a Holmes, you must also create a Watson.
One of the biggest things both the Eighties Grenada TV and recent BBC Sherlock Holmes series have done is to finally get Watson right. After nearly a century of being portrayed as a fat buffoon he's finally being treated as the competent medical doctor and war veteran that he is in the original books.
As for portraying Watson in Pathfinder? That's tough. It's hard to get away from the Cleric, but that just doesn't seem to fit.
If there was some kind of healing-focused Bard I'd say go with that, but just sticking to Pathfinder I'm thinking Hospitalar Paladin.
The Pathfinder Sherlock is Verian Jeggare an Half Elven Aristocrat wizzard. Mind I would have gone Aristocrat Bard Myself :) for my own style of Holmsian Detective :) as its more like the original ;)
To me, Jaggare comes across as more of a Nero Wolfe than a Holmes.
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I would recommend watching From Hell with Johnny Depp as well for a similar character to Sherlock Holmes. I believe Holmes was addicted to opium, and that of course is the basis for many modern drugs.
The archetype for the Bard, in the APG, that may suit would be the Detective. The suggestion for Bard was the best (take oratory or acting rather than the usual instrument or singing as your Perform skill). Remember Holmes was not a fighter type! Having access to all the knowledge based abilities of the Bard would be beneficial for your re-imaging.
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I would recommend watching From Hell with Johnny Depp as well for a similar character to Sherlock Holmes. I believe Holmes was addicted to opium, and that of course is the basis for many modern drugs.
I was wrong, Holmes expressed disdain about opium dens though he used morphine at times. Cocaine appeared to be his habit of choice!
Maybe replace Evasion with the ability to add 1/2 your level to all Knowledge checks.
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Yes, COCAINE. A seven percent solution.
To do so was perfectly legal at the time, but generally recognized as unhealthy by the mainstream medical profession, despite the claims of some licensed doctors and many outright quacks.
Watson himself is very critical of Holmes' habit and later in the book series writes that he managed to get Holmes to quit.
Those saying opium might be confused by Holmes' infiltration of opium dens in search of information during one or two stories.
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Thank you all for your posts.
Hyrum you make an excellent point about working with the DM, to help make leaps of deduction.
Geriant Elberion, thanks for pointing me in the direction of Varian Jagerre. I have been reading the Prince of Wolves book. I have been enjoying the read, and yes now that I think of it, he does remind me of Sherlock Holmes. They suggest classes of aristocrat and wizard. Hmm I guess that makes sense, I haven’t been able to peg his build.
Aravan, thank you, rogue makes sense. The sneak attack, knowledge local, and disguise all fit with the character.
Perhaps, feats like Improved unarmed strike, and Superior unarmed strike, (book of nine swords) and Improved natural attack, will give someone the unarmed strike schedule of a monk. (Without all of the KI strike stuff) to simulate some of his fisticuffs
I realize that Survival is not part of the rouges skill list, but the trait Poverty striken adds the survival trait to the skill list. ( I don’t think Holmes had a poverty stricken childhood)
Maybe the anatomist trait, hmm I’m not sure.
I wonder if an arcane trickster might be a good idea. The wizard classes would give him access to all of the knowledge skills.
Jeremy Brett is my favorite Holmes as well.
Hmm maybe I could call this character Dr. Bell, after Sir Author Conan Doyle’s mentor.
As for the drugs, heroin, or perhaps Pesh?
Again thank you everyone for your posts. You have given me lots of food for thought.
Thanks.
I suppose again the problem I am running into, is trying to stuff a multi faceted fictional character, into the confines of a Pathfinder game, where the characters are specialized, and work together as a team.
I don’t think I will be able to simulate everything about Holmes, I will have to pick what parts of the character I want to do and what I want to cut.
Again, thanks I will peak in back again to see what othe good ideas you all are coming up with.
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A Holmes character is in Ravenloft: Alanik Ray
Off the top of my head I think he was done as a Rogue.
Personally I'm going to try a rougher kind of detective based off of Inquisitor.
I'd consider either one of the APG Bard options or a Rogue option for a Holmes character. The nice thing about APG is you can get to a similar character more than one way.
I'd say that either Flayleaf or Pesh would make the most sense for a drug of choice. They both target Wisdom damage, which would be what an intelligent person who is "bored" would want.
Note that Survival is unnecessary if you pick the "Follow the Clues" rogue talent (follows tracks with Perception checks).
Regarding the Inquisitor for Watson, you can also get curative spells and the healing domain, to really focus on the medical side of things. Monster Lore for creature anatomy knowledge, etc.
It might have a bit of "scene stealing" stuff being that he's got judgments and slayer abilities... but simply being conservative on using those (except in the direst of situations) can keep him on the sidelines as a sidekick.
If he's actually a cohort through the Leadership feat, then being lower level offsets that too.
Holmes was definetly a Rogue. So would be most of Agatha Christie detectives. Inquisitor has the right feeling for a gumshoe, like Sam Spade or Philip Marlowe.
Firest, i just had another thought, for Watson, how about the inquisitor? The class has the heal skill, has the ranged weapon proficiences, and some other skills as well.
It's possible to make that work, but I think the resulting character would come across as more of an Archie Goodwin than a Dr. Watson.
An Alchemist perhaps? "Remember to bring your bombs Watson."
Watson would be a good Expert. Healing, and many other skills :) A level or two of warrior for his time away in the war...
And Rogue donst work for Holmes, as he is to Knowledgeable. Its Bard.
But a good Detective can be Rogue, Bard or Mage as the Bace Class Depending what you want to do. Or even Expert for a City Watch fellow :) A Lestrad might be Warrior or Warrior/Expert :)
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I think it's more important that your GM make sure the campaign is tailored towards mysteries to get the Sherlock Holmes feel. (I'd do it as Detective Rogue with some traits to get some Knowledge class skills).
If the campaign is mostly just kicking down doors and killing stuff you won't feel very Holmesian.
Anyway good luck I hope you get to play the game the way you hope :)
And Rogue donst work for Holmes, as he is to Knowledgeable. Its Bard.
The only thing going for Bard is Lore Master and having all knowledge skills as class skills.
He doesn't use his violin to do anything but think (ranks in perform at best, doesn't justify bardic performance at all). Magic? Jack-of-all-trades?Honestly, a Bard/Investigator mix, up to 5th Bard level, would give him all the abilities that would make him "Holmes".
That and High skill ranks and in lots of divers areas.... He bacically is Bard Aristocrat. But Bard/Aristocrat/Investigator is perfect :) He does have a high charisma when he wants to use it, and extreemly high social standing, his brother is a Lord Of London and all. As for Bard, sure it has magick, but thats just a tag along to go with the Oratory, Knowledge, and Diverse Skills.
Plus thinking on how best to design one for the game. Wizard, Bard, Aristocrat, Ranger, Expert, and Rogue seem to be the best base classes for a detective type - Same Spade, Phillip Marlo, Sherlock Holmes, Tomas Magnum etc. Then you add on extra base classes and prestige classes to get the desired effect. Then tailor your side characters and setting...
Sherlock in a modern 1800's setting isnt a Bard, but its the best Base class I can come up with, with the books I have. Add that with Aristocrat and...
But a Sherlock Holmes can be any number of things for your campaign. Have your detective Character be what sutes you play style and setting.