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If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20
You aren't reading.
No we are reading and what you want is an OMG easy button roll to target a character class' weakness. You want an easy to moderate roll that puts a huge sign over the wizard's bonded item so you can giggle with glee and say "target acquired."
I've said I personally think it should be an Arcana check.
Point is there shouldn't be one. Each of the skills has a pretty detailed description of what it does or doesn't do. There isn't one for identifying a bonded item, you don't want to understand there is probably a reason for that. At low levels you sunder a fighter's main weapon... Yeah it sucks but he isn't gimped to uselessness, he can still pick up any other weapon and do well. You blast a masterwork item that a low level wizard has bonded and they are pants down, bent over, officially taking it in a very unpleasant way. We're talking "scrunch up the character sheet and throw it out" with a dose of possibly make the player want to quit bad. 1 WEEK until they can attempt the ritual and 200g per level (on top of whatever they may have added to it) when they hardly have gold to spare on it.
How do you feel an opponent should be able to determine it.
To answer your question, here is what I wrote in my initial post as you seemed to either ignore it or don't want to hear it:
It shouldn't be that simple, if someone wants to know what it is they should have to watch the wizard at length to figure out his/her "secret" - what item do they ALWAYS have with them, what item are they never without. Which item has been damaged but repaired (which incidentally doesn't mean much as mending would cause the same effect).
Let me put it another way, it shouldn't be a roll-play, it should be a role play endeavor.
would let you know of magical traditions, the most you'd get out of this is wizards sometimes have a familiar and they sometimes have a bonded item. Nothing more specific than that UNLESS for some retarded reason there is a tradition of wizards that all have the same thing bonded. [Queue Storytelling voice]And well, amazingly they didn't last very long against their foes and modern wizards have learned from their mistakes...[Storytelling voice stops] Other than that all the identify checks do nothing to tell you >Bonded item used here like this<
tells you what spell is being cast, or what spell like ability is being used, or what magical abilities an item has or allows you to make an item. If the bonded item is enchanted you can figure out what it does, I'll give you that. It won't do anything for you but you will know what it was enchanted for. And again, this doesn't pop a "I'm a Bonded Item" sign over it, it just means it won't work for anyone besides the wizard and it is magical. Though at this point you have to be wondering where'd the wizard go? How come you have his/her bonded item? Good chances he or she is dead, so it's kinda moot, it isn't magical anymore...
If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20
The rules just tell you what symbols match which religion, not which one I actually care about enough to designate as "my" holy symbol(maybe the important one was a gift from my father). Religion does not search emotions. Sense Motive does so if you ask me which one is the one I actually use to cast my spells and channel then you get to use sense motive to know if I am lying. If they are actually all holy symbols your knowledge check will identify them all as holy symbols.
Do you see the difference between a holy symbol that I could use, and the one that I choose to use now?
If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20
Is english your first language? I ask that honestly because it is completely baffling to me that wraithstrike's point is lost on you so utterly.
Let's say my the symbol of my deity is a CROSS. I know, I'm creative. Let's say I'm walking down the street, a cleric of whatevz, and I have a cross on my shield, one on my helmet, some sticking out of my shoulders, one on my neck and a ring with one on it. Any old fool could make a religion check and tell what my deity is. Not anyone could determine what my HOLY SYMBOL is, i.e. which specific item I use as a divine focus.
Same dif with wizards.
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If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20The rules just tell you what symbols match which religion, not which one I actually care about enough to designate as "my" holy symbol(maybe the important one was a gift from my father). Religion does not search emotions. Sense Motive does so if you ask me which one is the one I actually use to cast my spells and channel then you get to use sense motive to know if I am lying. If they are actually all holy symbols your knowledge check will identify them all as holy symbols.
Do you see the difference between a holy symbol that I could use, and the one that I choose to use now?
Actually, it says I can identify the clergy of a religion, meaning if you are a cleric and not in disguise, I can identify you as a cleric of the religion.
If you are in disguise and wearing lots of holy symbols, that's pretty weird.
If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20
How about this as you seem to be stuck on the roll playing number crunching:
A complete stranger to this city has 5 masterwork items, how do you tell which one was given to them by their long lost brother?
If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20How about this as you seem to be stuck on the roll playing number crunching:
A complete stranger to this city has 5 masterwork items, how do you tell which one was given to them by their long lost brother?
I say DC20. I mean anything higher than DC 20 isn't auto-make, and we can't have a wizard running around with something cool. They need an off-switch like Data.
How about this as you seem to be stuck on the roll playing number crunching:
A complete stranger to this city has 5 masterwork items, how do you tell which one was given to them by their long lost brother?
...ask his long lost brother?
O_o
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If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20How about this as you seem to be stuck on the roll playing number crunching:
A complete stranger to this city has 5 masterwork items, how do you tell which one was given to them by their long lost brother?
If the masterwork item gave him an additional spell and without it being worn or wielded he cast at a huge penalty, that would be a similar question to the one I am asking.
Actually, it says I can identify the clergy of a religion, meaning if you are a cleric and not in disguise, I can identify you as a cleric of the religion.
If you are in disguise and wearing lots of holy symbols, that's pretty weird.
Clergy is different than cleric wandering around town in plain clothes, which happens to not be in disguise. Clergy are typically in vestments, or a uniform with accessories AKA they are wearing something that outwardly shows what they believe in. Are you being intentionally difficult at this point or what?
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Clergy is different than cleric wandering around town in plain clothes, which happens to not be in disguise. Clergy are typically in vestments, or a uniform with accessories AKA they are wearing something that outwardly shows what they believe in. Are you being intentionally difficult at this point or what?
Actually, it says I can identify the clergy of a religion, meaning if you are a cleric and not in disguise, I can identify you as a cleric of the religion.
If you are in disguise and wearing lots of holy symbols, that's pretty weird.
Clergy, you mean like a cleric with a divine focus? Which is what we are talking about, which is still an off topic strawman.
If you aren't a cleric (or divine caster), then why do I care about your divine focus? And if you are...well then aren't you clergy?
I say DC20. I mean anything higher than DC 20 isn't auto-make, and we can't have a wizard running around with something cool. They need an off-switch like Data.
Hey!! Be nice and stop avoiding the fact it would require more effort than the "duh I roll the sparkly dice to get my answer" they want to hear!
If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20The rules just tell you what symbols match which religion, not which one I actually care about enough to designate as "my" holy symbol(maybe the important one was a gift from my father). Religion does not search emotions. Sense Motive does so if you ask me which one is the one I actually use to cast my spells and channel then you get to use sense motive to know if I am lying. If they are actually all holy symbols your knowledge check will identify them all as holy symbols.
Do you see the difference between a holy symbol that I could use, and the one that I choose to use now?Actually, it says I can identify the clergy of a religion, meaning if you are a cleric and not in disguise, I can identify you as a cleric of the religion.
If you are in disguise and wearing lots of holy symbols, that's pretty weird.
PRD: Recognize a common deity's symbol or clergy.
I am sure if a paladin and a fighter in full plate have holy symbols you won't know which one is the paladin on sight.|
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Hey!! Be nice and stop avoiding the fact it would require more effort than the "duh I roll the sparkly dice to get my answer" they want to hear!I say DC20. I mean anything higher than DC 20 isn't auto-make, and we can't have a wizard running around with something cool. They need an off-switch like Data.
You seem to want it to not be able to be identified. Is that your stance?
... and we can't have a wizard running around with something cool. They need an off-switch like Data.
LOL
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PRD: Recognize a common deity's symbol or clergy.
I am sure if a paladin and a fighter in full plate have holy symbols you won't know which one is the paladin on sight.
RAW you would. If you rolled a DC 10 religion check for a common or a DC 20 for obscure.
If the fighter wanted to disguise himself as a paladin, maybe not. But each deities followers have certain traits, and the more devout have more of these traits.
This is actually a huge Wizard advantage, as they have all the knowledges and high intelligence.
It's like if you walk into a bar and look around the room you can size people up. Some are better at it than others.
Minus disguise, you can probably tell a catholic priest from an Rabbi.
PRD: Recognize a common deity's symbol or clergy.
I am sure if a paladin and a fighter in full plate have holy symbols you won't know which one is the paladin on sight.RAW you would. If you rolled a DC 10 religion check for a common or a DC 20 for obscure.
If the fighter wanted to disguise himself as a paladin, maybe not. But each deities followers have certain traits, and the more devout have more of these traits.
This is actually a huge Wizard advantage, as they have all the knowledges and high intelligence.
It's like if you walk into a bar and look around the room you can size people up. Some are better at it than others.
Minus disguise, you can probably tell a catholic priest from an Rabbi.
Jesus man, this isn't an MMO where someone has "Gerard, Human Cleric" floating above their head at all time. So, no, you really can't tell the difference between a rogue and a fighter until they have displayed something that proves their difference. And even then you are assuming characters have meta-game knowledge of the class system, what other classes have as abilities, etc etc.
If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
No, the rules are. Pg 101 of core, from the chart.
Recognize a common deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 10
Know common mythology and tenets Religion 15
Recognize an obscure deity’s symbol or clergy Religion 20Is english your first language? I ask that honestly because it is completely baffling to me that wraithstrike's point is lost on you so utterly.
Let's say my the symbol of my deity is a CROSS. I know, I'm creative. Let's say I'm walking down the street, a cleric of whatevz, and I have a cross on my shield, one on my helmet, some sticking out of my shoulders, one on my neck and a ring with one on it. Any old fool could make a religion check and tell what my deity is. Not anyone could determine what my HOLY SYMBOL is, i.e. which specific item I use as a divine focus.
Same dif with wizards.
So in your world, Religious leaders commonly walk around wearing all of the symbols of a bunch of different deities...yeah...
This whole line of questioning is a strawman. The question is very simple, what checks can identify a bonded object.
I showed you the checks for identifying both the symbol and the clergy of a religion. And all of that is irrelevant since a bonded object isn't a holy symbol or a divine focus.
The question remains how can you identify the bonded object. I'm not asking for it to be easy to do, I'm just asking how you do it.
Give me a scenario for finding out, as you seem to be arguing it doesn't show while casting, doesn't detect as magic, isn't subject to any checks, be they arcana, spellcraft, perception, etc...and I don't expect the wizard to tell me.
I was just presenting an example for comparison. I see you could not identify which holy symbol is the one that matters so you can't identify which item of the wizard matters.
There is no check for the bond. I already explained that if you want to know you would have to investigate, the same way you would have to investigate the cleric.The game has to make sense from an immersion and mechanic point of view. If the item is not used to cast the spell there is no way to know what it is in the middle of combat. That means you must try to investigate to find out what it is. It is no different than if I am walking down the street with twin sisters, but one of them is my gf. If I am not showing either of them any affection then there is no way to tell, but if you follow me a few blocks you may notice signs later to give it away.
You finally mentioned perception(can be used for investigation, but it is not a DC X you get to know.) Now if you spy on the wizard you may notice he favors one item over the other. You may be able to kidnap someone close to him or trick them into telling you. If they wanted you to be able to detect the item on sight they would have given ways to do so.
The cleric's(in my example) true holy symbol is detectable because he has to use it, so just get him to use it if you can. Then you will know which one it is. How to do that would be up to you though.
Clergy is different than cleric wandering around town in plain clothes, which happens to not be in disguise. Clergy are typically in vestments, or a uniform with accessories AKA they are wearing something that outwardly shows what they believe in. Are you being intentionally difficult at this point or what?
Actually, it says I can identify the clergy of a religion, meaning if you are a cleric and not in disguise, I can identify you as a cleric of the religion.
If you are in disguise and wearing lots of holy symbols, that's pretty weird.
Clergy, you mean like a cleric with a divine focus? Which is what we are talking about, which is still an off topic strawman.
If you aren't a cleric (or divine caster), then why do I care about your divine focus? And if you are...well then aren't you clergy?
A devout member of the religion can have a holy symbol(Don't christian wear crosses?) It just won't grant him any powers. Now if you see someone in robes acting in an official capacity for the church, that would be clergy. I am not saying robes are necessary, but they are normally worn in most games or movies with priest(not necessarily clerics)
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A devout member of the religion can have a holy symbol(Don't christian wear crosses?) It just won't grant him any powers. Now if you see someone in robes acting in an official capacity for the church, that would be clergy. I am not saying robes are necessary, but they are normally worn in most games or movies with priest(not necessarily clerics)Clergy is different than cleric wandering around town in plain clothes, which happens to not be in disguise. Clergy are typically in vestments, or a uniform with accessories AKA they are wearing something that outwardly shows what they believe in. Are you being intentionally difficult at this point or what?
Actually, it says I can identify the clergy of a religion, meaning if you are a cleric and not in disguise, I can identify you as a cleric of the religion.
If you are in disguise and wearing lots of holy symbols, that's pretty weird.
Clergy, you mean like a cleric with a divine focus? Which is what we are talking about, which is still an off topic strawman.
If you aren't a cleric (or divine caster), then why do I care about your divine focus? And if you are...well then aren't you clergy?
There is a christian, and there is a priest. There is a marine who wears a cross, and there is a holy crusader.
Paladins and Clerics, by definition, are acting in an official capacity for the church.
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The cleric's(in my example) true holy symbol is detectable because he has to use it, so just get him to use it if you can. Then you will know which one it is. How to do that would be up to you though.
Putting aside the "true" holy symbol thing, most people arguing on here have been saying the wizard doesn't "use" the arcane bonded item while casting. It just sits there while he casts.
If you want to say it is clear when he is casting by some sort of check which is the bonded item, I am fine with that. Is that what you are saying?
This whole line of questioning is a strawman. The question is very simple, what checks can identify a bonded object.
And the simple answer is no single check can give you the definitive answer you want. And you refuse to hear it EVERY TIME.
I showed you the checks for identifying both the symbol and the clergy of a religion. And all of that is irrelevant since a bonded object isn't a holy symbol or a divine focus.
As irrelevant as it may be you still didn't answer my question. How do you determine the nature of something without having any obvious signs. What steps would you go through?
The question remains how can you identify the bonded object. I'm not asking for it to be easy to do, I'm just asking how you do it.
Answer:
Give me a scenario for finding out, as you seem to be arguing it doesn't show while casting, doesn't detect as magic, isn't subject to any checks, be they arcana, spellcraft, perception, etc...and I don't expect the wizard to tell me.
Why should WE give you the scenario, why are you incapable of sitting back, taking what has been said in this thread and making some sort of constructive deduction from it?
You seem to want it to not be able to be identified. Is that your stance?
My stance is it is a role play opportunity, not the role play one that you want it to be. Do you understand the difference? It takes more than - drop die, add number, get answer.
RAW you would. If you rolled a DC 10 religion check for a common or a DC 20 for obscure.
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If the fighter wanted to disguise himself as a paladin, maybe not. But each deities followers have certain traits, and the more devout have more of these traits.
There are actually no rules supporting what you have just said. There are no rules indicating anything more trait wise than a cleric or paladin having an AURA of evil/good at first level unless you are bringing outsides rules into RAW. Unless you are magically detecting, you would be incapable of determining a fighter in clergy attire versus a paladin.
It's like if you walk into a bar and look around the room you can size people up. Some are better at it than others.
Except you have no basis to size people up, you have no frame of reference. You haven't a clue whether that wizard has a bonded item or if they have a familiar you can't see. Nothing is glaring you in the face to tell you either unless they are so cocky they are doing it intentionally.
Minus disguise, you can probably tell a catholic priest from an Rabbi.
Probably Gotta love stereotypes, other than that that one word says it all - YOU ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW.
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And the simple answer is no single check can give you the definitive answer you want. And you refuse to hear it EVERY TIME.
Then give me a series of checks. You are giving no way to identify the arcane bonded object.
This either means you feel there should be no way to do it, or you can't think of one either.
If you want to say it is clear when he is casting by some sort of check which is the bonded item, I am fine with that. Is that what you are saying?
No that isn't what he is saying, he's saying that a cleric who uses a divine focus has to actively present that - you can see what is being used. The wizard doesn't have to. If it is a masterwork ring that allows him to cast without rolling, and that wizard is wearing that ring under a glove... You have NO CLUE what the bonded item is. You don't even know he's wearing a ring as you can't see it...
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No that isn't what he is saying, he's saying that a cleric who uses a divine focus has to actively present that - you can see what is being used. The wizard doesn't have to. If it is a masterwork ring that allows him to cast without rolling, and that wizard is wearing that ring under a glove... You have NO CLUE what the bonded item is. You don't even know he's wearing a ring as you can't see it...
If you want to say it is clear when he is casting by some sort of check which is the bonded item, I am fine with that. Is that what you are saying?
Which shows yet another reason why the divine focus is a bad analogy.
And back to dealing with the question, what methodology could be used to determine which is the bonded item.
If your stance is none, just say that you believe the bonded object is the only item in the game than can't be identified for what it is.
And the simple answer is no single check can give you the definitive answer you want. And you refuse to hear it EVERY TIME.Then give me a series of checks. You are giving no way to identify the arcane bonded object.
This either means you feel there should be no way to do it, or you can't think of one either.
What part of there is no specific roll or set of rolls or sequence of rolls that will get the information you want aren't you getting.
because EVERY situation is different.
We ARE trying to be helpful here and you are just being willfully ignorant at this point. If you are incapable of understanding what "investigate in game" means, you will never get it, ever. If you are unable to fathom something that doesn't come down to a die roll, maybe this isn't the game for you.
Do you understand the difference between role playing and roll playing??
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There are no rules that allow you to make a skill check and say "Oh hey, he flubbed a roll to cast a spell without his arcane bonded item and the spell fizzled."
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That said, this roll is not anything worth considering. The bonded object isn't used in any appreciable way to give it away.
There are no rules for any of this. Wasn't that the point? RAW would completely support you in saying that a wizard casting with a bonded object is indistinguishable from casting without one. If a GM rules there is a noticeable difference, he needs to specify a skill and a DC.
First off DC's start at 20 so why they heck would it be EASIER to discern the value of a masterwork bonded item?
The DC for Appraise starts and ends at 20. That gives you the exact value of a common item. No other DCs or modifiers are specified for uncommon items.
If you fail by 5 or less, you can guess the value within 20%. The difference in value between a masterwork item and non-masterwork is usually more than 20%, thus a roll of 15 is good enough to do what's required here, so I might as well call that the actual DC, hence my note.
Great... They have a masterwork item, doesn't mean they have a bonded item. A bonded weapon is FAR from ornamental.
That last is up to the wizard. There's no reason to suppose, though, that a wizard can use absolutely any object as a ritual focus just because he spent 300gp on it. If the object has to be made of particular metals and gems, marked with particular designs, runes or geometry, prepared for use by an extended ritual, or whatever, then a knowledgeable person should be able to look over it carefully and with ample time (I did say, in his possession) and determine, yes, that would be suitable or has been prepared for spellcasting.
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And the simple answer is no single check can give you the definitive answer you want. And you refuse to hear it EVERY TIME.Then give me a series of checks. You are giving no way to identify the arcane bonded object.
This either means you feel there should be no way to do it, or you can't think of one either.
What part of there is no specific roll or set of rolls or sequence of rolls that will get the information you want aren't you getting.
because EVERY situation is different.
We ARE trying to be helpful here and you are just being willfully ignorant at this point. If you are incapable of understanding what "investigate in game" means, you will never get it, ever. If you are unable to fathom something that doesn't come down to a die roll, maybe this isn't the game for you.
Do you understand the difference between role playing and roll playing??
When you actually provide a scenario where the arcane bonded item can be identified, you will be helping.
Which shows yet another reason why the divine focus is a bad analogy.And back to dealing with the question, what methodology could be used to determine which is the bonded item.
If your stance is none, just say that you believe the bonded object is the only item in the game than can't be identified for what it is.
I wasn't using it as an analogy.
as for the methodology, seeing as , go ask your DM and save everyone the headache maybe?
I didn't say none, I said it seems you are incapable of figuring it out on your own. I know what I would do in the games I play in, I'm not in your games. All I can tell you is the answer you are looking for is not in the book like a "simple holy symbol DC" and requires you to be able to wrap your head around something more than a die roll or three.
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And the simple answer is no single check can give you the definitive answer you want. And you refuse to hear it EVERY TIME.Then give me a series of checks. You are giving no way to identify the arcane bonded object.
This either means you feel there should be no way to do it, or you can't think of one either.
I feel there should be no way to do it for certain until after the fight, but there could be ways to narrow down possibilities.
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Which shows yet another reason why the divine focus is a bad analogy.And back to dealing with the question, what methodology could be used to determine which is the bonded item.
If your stance is none, just say that you believe the bonded object is the only item in the game than can't be identified for what it is.
I wasn't using it as an analogy.
as for the methodology, seeing as , go ask your DM and save everyone the headache maybe?
I didn't say none, I said it seems you are incapable of figuring it out on your own. I know what I would do in the games I play in, I'm not in your games. All I can tell you is the answer you are looking for is not in the book like a "simple holy symbol DC" and requires you to be able to wrap your head around something more than a die roll or three.
You are right. I am incapable of figuring out on my own. Which is why I posted this. Enlighten me.
And since you are stuck on the holy symbol thing, I will again point out a cleric can use any holy symbol of his deity, so there is no "one" holy symbol. If they have 5, they can use any of the five. So that whole line of discussion has not connection to Arcane Bonded item.
But again, enlighten me.
There are no rules for any of this. Wasn't that the point? RAW would completely support you in saying that a wizard casting with a bonded object is indistinguishable from casting without one. If a GM rules there is a noticeable difference, he needs to specify a skill and a DC.
As it is a houserule at this point that is fine, but I am using only rules from the book. Whenever I'm posting someplace other than in the "house rule forum" I stick to strict RAW. Again that proposed roll isn't worth considering as it doesn't exist and isn't backed by any rule in the book.
The DC for Appraise starts and ends at 20. That gives you the exact value of the item.
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If you fail by 5 or less, you can guess the value within 20%. The difference in value between a masterwork item and non-masterwork is usually more than 20%, thus a roll of 15 is good enough to do what's required here, so I might as well call that the actual DC, hence my note.
Fine you know it to be a masterwork item... That doesn't mean it is a bonded item. It is a step in the right direction but still doesn't fulfill what the request seems to be - 1 roll to see what a bonded item is.
That last is up to the wizard. There's no reason to suppose, though, that a wizard can use absolutely any object as a ritual focus just because he spent 300gp on it. If the object has to be made of particular metals and gems, marked with particular designs, runes or geometry, prepared for use by an extended ritual, or whatever, then a knowledgeable person should be able to look over it carefully and with ample time (I did say, in his possession) and determine, yes, that would be suitable or has been prepared for spellcasting.
Actually there is a reason, the only stipulation that is in effect is the item is masterwork. Whether it is all gussied up, is up to the wizard. It doesn't say it has to be, YOU are house ruling that if you are saying that the item has to be all ceremonial like. You are enforcing a stipulation above and beyond the written rules which in fact cause the wizard to be at a disadvantage. RAW doesn't back you on this thankfully. "Generic" masterwork is all that is required of a bonded item. Personally until one of our players felt comfortable enough to make those rolls without the item, there is no way in hell they are making it a target by making it stand out like that.
I feel there should be no way to do it for certain until after the fight, but there could be ways to narrow down possibilities.
Even after the fight it would be near impossible.
Bonded item is a ring, character was wearing a glove (or gauntlet), you never see the item. If the character is incapacitated you could strip them of the ring as it was masterwork and looked valuable but unless it was enchanted you wouldn't pick anything up from it. Once they are aware (assuming that happens and you don't kill them) it isn't even certain you would know unless they actively asked about it (which would be stupid on their end).
Things change slightly if it is magical but not a lot, a regular magic item can be made with restrictions of use. Unless the wizard dies you don't know for sure because it is magical up until then. After death, no longer magical, case solved.
I just want a mechanism. Is that so difficult?
Yes it's clear that you do.
However like everyone has explained to you in several different ways, there is none.
-If you're a player; try different things and see what works with your GM. If none does, accept it.
-If you're a GM; make up whatever method you like. Just don't expect a player with a bonded item react too well if it gets targeted.
There is no rule in RAW that allowes a bonded item to be identified. If you disagree show us a clear quote or end this sillyness.
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You could team up with three bards and setup a 'customs' style check point - insist that the Wizard removes all metalic/wooden/ceramic/organic objects before entering the.. tavern.
..explain that such item interfere with the bar man's ability to pull pints.
Then, as the Wizard places the items into the plastic dish watch carefully to see which item he places with the most care...
...to confirm your suspicions, pick up the item as it passes along the halfling powered automated-table of moving stuff and give it a good shake..
...and if you really want to be sure - drop it and step on it.
If the Wizard is screaming blue murder by this point, chances are you've found the Bonded Item.
I have to agree here, that you are not able to find out, what is Arcane Bond item or not.
Since you are asking for scenario, why not... by Roleplaying.
"It is raining heavily. Beyond 10 feet, you can´t see anything. You keep moving and moving, until you are thinking, that this will never end. Cursing and wondering, when will this end, you happen to stumble over the inn. Thanking the Gods, whoever made your wish come true, you rush towards the door and open it, entering inside."
"Moment later, as you realises, all the people inside" the few who happens to be there " looks at you and soon focus at their own things. Water dripping from your clothes, you sit next to fire. Your cloak and boots completely soaked, you wonder how long it will take until you can use your clothes again. Somehow, [b]Your hat/cloak/etc etc is not wet. Completely dry and looking like a new purchased item straight from the shop, is the only abnormal thing among your stuff. Moment later, a spark / fireball / lighting bolt or what ever magical trick ... " okey, we got our wizard here and by roleplaying, we got some suspicious item, which is not wet... Stupid, maybe useless example, but you get what I mean.
I went through Knowledge(all), Detect Magic, Arcane Bond, Wizard describtions and so on... unbelievable amount of text, but nevermind and the result = I really can´t find anything, which would say that you are able to recognize it.
Wizard is only able to use it 1/day to cast any spell from his spellbook spontaneously. It doesn´t really have any other functions = it oculd not even be magical at that point. It emits maybe some magical threads, when he cast something, but it should also disappear instantly.
Maybe only then, when the wizard is imbueing arcane bond with some magic (Don´t need to have the feats for Crafting Wondrous Items, Magic Armor etc... only to be appropriate level). Then I would agree, but otherwise... if he never do anything like this, but whole career (1lvl to 20 lvl) it is just normal item, he uses once a day to cast something, I can´t see any reason for people to be able to recognize it
Great... They have a masterwork item, doesn't mean they have a bonded item. A bonded weapon is FAR from ornamental.That last is up to the wizard. There's no reason to suppose, though, that a wizard can use absolutely any object as a ritual focus just because he spent 300gp on it. If the object has to be made of particular metals and gems, marked with particular designs, runes or geometry, prepared for use by an extended ritual, or whatever, then a knowledgeable person should be able to look over it carefully and with ample time (I did say, in his possession) and determine, yes, that would be suitable or has been prepared for spellcasting.
You know after re reading this I think you misunderstood what I meant by ornamental. I meant that a masterwork weapon is still a usable weapon. The fact that a wizard has a masterwork staff doesn't mean it is a bonded item. It could just as easily be a decent weapon and that is why they have it on hand.
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The bonded object has a connection to the wizard that made it. It would take a fair degree of deep analysis to identify it as something other than a magic item with a faint transmutation aura. If the wizard had added other properties to such an item it would detect as an item with those properties.
In combat though, identifying it as a bonded object is going to be a matter of guesswork and deduction. And may not be possible if the bonded item is an amulet being worn underneath clothing and next to the skin, for example.
It doesn't have to be in combat. It doesn't have to be a skill check.
But if you can not identify it, ever, at all, it is the only object in the game that you can't identify by any means.
That is the issue.
Profpotts explained his read earlier very clearly, and I agree with his assessment.
It makes no sense to have to wield or wear the object if there is no way of identifying it, by any means, in or out of combat, with a fox, in a box, in a house, with a mouse...
This is the question.
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I have to agree here, that you are not able to find out, what is Arcane Bond item or not.
Since you are asking for scenario, why not... by Roleplaying.
"It is raining heavily. Beyond 10 feet, you can´t see anything. You keep moving and moving, until you are thinking, that this will never end. Cursing and wondering, when will this end, you happen to stumble over the inn. Thanking the Gods, whoever made your wish come true, you rush towards the door and open it, entering inside."
"Moment later, as you realises, all the people inside" the few who happens to be there " looks at you and soon focus at their own things. Water dripping from your clothes, you sit next to fire. Your cloak and boots completely soaked, you wonder how long it will take until you can use your clothes again. Somehow, Your hat/cloak/etc etc is not wet. Completely dry and looking like a new purchased item straight from the shop, is the only abnormal thing among your stuff. Moment later, a spark / fireball / lighting bolt or what ever magical trick ... " okey, we got our wizard here and by roleplaying, we got some suspicious item, which is not wet... Stupid, maybe useless example, but you get what I mean.
I went through Knowledge(all), Detect Magic, Arcane Bond, Wizard describtions and so on... unbelievable amount of text, but nevermind and the result = I really can´t find anything, which would say that you are able to recognize it.
Wizard is only able to use it 1/day to cast any spell from his spellbook spontaneously. It doesn´t really have any other functions = it oculd not even be magical at that point. It emits maybe some magical threads, when he cast something, but it should also disappear instantly.
Maybe only then, when the wizard is imbueing arcane bond with some magic (Don´t need to have the feats for Crafting Wondrous Items, Magic Armor etc... only to be appropriate level). Then I would agree, but otherwise... if he never do anything like this, but whole career (1lvl to 20 lvl) it is just normal item, he uses once...
But if it is "just a mundane item" it would be wet.
I've already laid out why I think RAW implies it is a magical item (the words "additional" and "revert" for example) but we don't have to agree on that point to agree that it should be able to be recognized in some way.
I don't care what that way is. I really don't. But if there is absolutely no way to do it, it would be the only object in the game that is like that.
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.....You could team up with three bards and setup a 'customs' style check point - insist that the Wizard removes all metalic/wooden/ceramic/organic objects before entering the.. tavern.
..explain that such item interfere with the bar man's ability to pull pints.
Then, as the Wizard places the items into the plastic dish watch carefully to see which item he places with the most care...
...to confirm your suspicions, pick up the item as it passes along the halfling powered automated-table of moving stuff and give it a good shake..
...and if you really want to be sure - drop it and step on it.
If the Wizard is screaming blue murder by this point, chances are you've found the Bonded Item.
:)
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..
...
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.....You could team up with three bards and setup a 'customs' style check point - insist that the Wizard removes all metalic/wooden/ceramic/organic objects before entering the.. tavern.
..explain that such item interfere with the bar man's ability to pull pints.
Then, as the Wizard places the items into the plastic dish watch carefully to see which item he places with the most care...
...to confirm your suspicions, pick up the item as it passes along the halfling powered automated-table of moving stuff and give it a good shake..
...and if you really want to be sure - drop it and step on it.
If the Wizard is screaming blue murder by this point, chances are you've found the Bonded Item.
Or his wedding ring.
Cast wish:
"I wish to know what is that wizard's arcane bond." Ta Dah! one standard action later your character has identified the item.
Cast Miracle:
See Wish
Cast Commune:
"Is the wizard's arcane bond the wand he is waving about? "
NO Well. not really as easy as wish or miracle But maybe with a few weeks and process of elimination.
And I am sure there are others I am just too lazy to look up. Spells that charm the wizzie or command him or just invade his mind.
OR you can break every masterwork amulet, ring, wand, staff and weapon he carries and observe if he seems to be miscasting more often.
But overall, there is NO easy way to know. IE Spellcraft roll with a DC of 65. IF you consider that some sort of loophole in game, adjust it. Personally, in my games it hasn't mattered. But this conversation has lead me to think about a sorc that pretends to use a wand during his casting. So for that I am thankful.
I removed some posts. Play nice.
Also, we like to say 'Flag it and move on.' That means exactly that. Don't call people out. If something is over the line, just flag it and pretend it isn't there.