There has been a debate and discussion that I think needs clarification.
How can an opponent identify a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item.
Can you make a spellcraft check?
Does it detect as magic, even if not imbued?Etc...
So powers that be, how does an opponent identify the wizards bonded object?
It is not magical until it has been made into a magic item, so that route is out.
It is not presented like a holy symbol. Gather info, and divination spells might work though.
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There has been a debate and discussion that I think needs clarification.
How can an opponent identify a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item.
Can you make a spellcraft check?
Does it detect as magic, even if not imbued?Etc...
So powers that be, how does an opponent identify the wizards bonded object?
It is not magical until it has been made into a magic item, so that route is out.
It is not presented like a holy symbol. Gather info, and divination spells might work though.
At minimum The object does the following.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
That is a magical ability. In fact, the next paragraph begins "A wizard can add additional magic abilities", which implies that it already has magical abilities, before you add any additional ones.
You are arguing that an Arcane Bonded Object is the only object in the game that provides a magical ability to the owner of the object, but does not detect as magic, nor can be identified for the magical abilities it conveys. I don't agree with you.
bonded item-used to channel energy to cast spells, used to cast a spell
holy symbol-divine focus to cast spells, used for channeling.
I don't see a big difference other than the fact that one can be made into a magical item while the other can't.
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bonded item-used to channel energy to cast spells, used to cast a spell
holy symbol-divine focus to cast spells, used for channeling.
I don't see a big difference other than the fact that one can be made into a magical item while the other can't.
See above, again I quote.
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities" meaning even prior to adding on, the arcane bonded object inherently possesses magical abilities.
The question is how to detect it these abilities, not if they exist.
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bonded item-used to channel energy to cast spells, used to cast a spell
holy symbol-divine focus to cast spells, used for channeling.
I don't see a big difference other than the fact that one can be made into a magical item while the other can't.
And you can clearly identify a holy symbol. If you want to concede that you can clearly identify a bonded object on sight, I can go with that.
But I'm pretty sure that isn't your point.
There has been a debate and discussion that I think needs clarification.
How can an opponent identify a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item.
Can you make a spellcraft check?
Does it detect as magic, even if not imbued?Etc...
So powers that be, how does an opponent identify the wizards bonded object?
It is not magical until it has been made into a magic item, so that route is out.
It is not presented like a holy symbol. Gather info, and divination spells might work though.At minimum The object does the following.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
That is a magical ability. In fact, the next paragraph begins "A wizard can add additional magic abilities", which implies that it already has magical abilities, before you add any additional ones.
You are arguing that an Arcane Bonded Object is the only object in the game that provides a magical ability to the owner of the object, but does not detect as magic, nor can be identified for the magical abilities it conveys. I don't agree with you.
The addition magical abilities is because a wizard can take an already magical item and make that into the bonded item, and he can also upgrade it thereby "add additional magic abilities".
"A wizard can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item."
Those abilities added to the item as a bonded item go away if the wizard dies since he never had the feat to make it into a true magic item.
"The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type."
bonded item-used to channel energy to cast spells, used to cast a spell
holy symbol-divine focus to cast spells, used for channeling.
I don't see a big difference other than the fact that one can be made into a magical item while the other can't.
And you can clearly identify a holy symbol. If you want to concede that you can clearly identify a bonded object on sight, I can go with that.
But I'm pretty sure that isn't your point.
You can identify the holy symbol because it is used to cast spells. It is pretty hard not to identify it if it is being presented.
It is also stated without any room for argument that it is presented when channeling.Channel Energy (Su):.......
"A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability. "
There is no such verbiage for a wizard.
It says for a wizard:
"If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make.."
That means all I have to do is wear it. Now if I am holding a staff, and wearing a ring, and wearng an amulet how is anyone to know which one is the bonded item?
If the bonded item was magical I would just cast nondetection on it or that other spell that hides magical auras, but that is not the point right now.
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At minimum The object does the following."A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
That is a magical ability. In fact, the next paragraph begins "A wizard can add additional magic abilities", which implies that it already has magical abilities, before you add any additional ones.
You are arguing that an Arcane Bonded Object is the only object in the game that provides a magical ability to the owner of the object, but does not detect as magic, nor can be identified for the magical abilities it conveys. I don't agree with you.
The addition magical abilities is because a wizard can take an already magical item and make that into the bonded item, and he can also upgrade it thereby "add additional magic abilities".
"A wizard can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item."
Those abilities added to the item as a bonded item go away if the wizard dies since he never had the feat to make it into a true magic item.
"The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type."
I think you are reaching here.
The arcane bonded item by it's nature has a magical ability. It stores a spell. And not only does it store a spell, it stores any spell you know.
The paragraph after explaining this starts as follows.
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats)."
Not, "add magical abilities to an object that has existing magical abilities" not a "+1 flaming Dagger" but you can add "additional" magic abilities to a masterwork dagger.
I agree it is unclear how it can be identified. It might even be TPTB intended it to be hard to do. But clearly it has magical abilities.
At minimum The object does the following."A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
That is a magical ability. In fact, the next paragraph begins "A wizard can add additional magic abilities", which implies that it already has magical abilities, before you add any additional ones.
You are arguing that an Arcane Bonded Object is the only object in the game that provides a magical ability to the owner of the object, but does not detect as magic, nor can be identified for the magical abilities it conveys. I don't agree with you.
The addition magical abilities is because a wizard can take an already magical item and make that into the bonded item, and he can also upgrade it thereby "add additional magic abilities".
"A wizard can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item."
Those abilities added to the item as a bonded item go away if the wizard dies since he never had the feat to make it into a true magic item.
"The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type."
I think you are reaching here.
The arcane bonded item by it's nature has a magical ability. It stores a spell. And not only does it store a spell, it stores any spell you know.
The paragraph after explaining this starts as follows.
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats)."
Not, "add magical abilities to an object that has existing magical abilities" not...
I think the magical abilities argument is trumped by the non-magical holy symbol example. Now it could be magical, but I hope not. Even if it is identifying won't be easy without errata to say it has to be presented similar the way a holy symbol does.
I am more against the easy identification than I am against it being magical.edit:words are appearing that I did not type. I think it is a board issue. I will bold what I typed
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You can identify the holy symbol because it is used to cast spells. It is pretty hard not to identify it if it is being presented.
It is also stated without any room for argument that it is presented when channeling.Channel Energy (Su):.......
"A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability. "There is no such verbiage for a wizard
You are starting from the assumption that they are functional equivalents, and I disagree with that assumption. A holy symbol isn't a bonded item. They do completely different things. This line of debate has no traction with me. It's like saying a shield is the same as a sword.
The questions for me are as follow.
1. Is the arcane object magical? Based on the rule as is written that seems clear to me.
2. How can you identify it? This is unclear, and will have to be cleared up by the developers before there is agreement.
You can identify the holy symbol because it is used to cast spells. It is pretty hard not to identify it if it is being presented.
It is also stated without any room for argument that it is presented when channeling.Channel Energy (Su):.......
"A cleric must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability. "There is no such verbiage for a wizard
You are starting from the assumption that they are functional equivalents, and I disagree with that assumption. A holy symbol isn't a bonded item. They do completely different things. This line of debate has no traction with me. It's like saying a shield is the same as a sword.
The questions for me are as follow.
1. Is the arcane object magical? Based on the rule is written that seems clear to me.
2. How can you identify it? This is unclear, and will have to be cleared up by the developers before there is agreement.
I think it would be silly for the item to have masterwork tag added for no good reason if you want it to be magical. It could have been fluffed with the wizard filling it with arcane energy or a number of other things. The way it is written is that it is just like a holy symbol that can be enchanted.
Identifying it in combat would be hard. I think it would take some spy work or else you have every wizard using nondetection.
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I think it would be silly for the item to have masterwork tag added for no good reason if you want it to be magical. It could have been fluffed with the wizard filling it with arcane energy or a number of other things. The way it is written is that it is just like a holy symbol that can be enchanted.Identifying it in combat would be hard. I think it would take some spy work or else you have every wizard using nondetection.
The masterwork tag is because of the requirement for weapons to be masterwork for enhancements to be added to them. This makes perfect sense to me, as if you are going to enchant something, it needs to be of high quality.
And I think you are stuck on the holy symbol. Holy symbols don't store spells. They are just something for religious casters to focus on as they cast. I don't see the two things related at all.
I think it would be silly for the item to have masterwork tag added for no good reason if you want it to be magical. It could have been fluffed with the wizard filling it with arcane energy or a number of other things. The way it is written is that it is just like a holy symbol that can be enchanted.Identifying it in combat would be hard. I think it would take some spy work or else you have every wizard using nondetection.
The masterwork tag is because of the requirement for weapons to be masterwork for enhancements to be added to them. This makes perfect sense to me, as if you are going to enchant something, it needs to be of high quality.
And I think you are stuck on the holy symbol. Holy symbols don't store spells. They are just something for religious casters to focus on as they cast. I don't see the two things related at all.
No other items except swords, and armor have that rule. They could also have said the item has to be masterwork to replace your bonded item, and it starts off as magical. Of course it would be written better, but I think you get the point. It makes sense for it to be masterwork to me also, but having an magical connection to the wizard does not make it magical.
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I think it would be silly for the item to have masterwork tag added for no good reason if you want it to be magical. It could have been fluffed with the wizard filling it with arcane energy or a number of other things. The way it is written is that it is just like a holy symbol that can be enchanted.Identifying it in combat would be hard. I think it would take some spy work or else you have every wizard using nondetection.
The masterwork tag is because of the requirement for weapons to be masterwork for enhancements to be added to them. This makes perfect sense to me, as if you are going to enchant something, it needs to be of high quality.
And I think you are stuck on the holy symbol. Holy symbols don't store spells. They are just something for religious casters to focus on as they cast. I don't see the two things related at all.
No other items except swords, and armor have that rule. They could also have said the item has to be masterwork to replace your bonded item, and it starts off as magical. Of course it would be written better, but I think you get the point. It makes sense for it to be masterwork to me also, but having an magical connection to the wizard does not make it magical.
And therein lies our disagreement. So hit the FAQ at the top of the thread and lets get the developers to weigh in.
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Arcane Bond, covering both familiars and bonded objects, is listed as an (Ex or Sp) ability, notwithstanding that familiars also grant a few supernatural abilities. The only part of the process that seems to resemble, but is not, a spell is the ritual to replace a lost bonded item or familiar. I conclude that the rest of the time, Arcane Bond is an extraordinary ability.
The bonded item can be used to cast any one spell, in exactly the same sense as the wizard uses it to cast his other, prepared spells: it's an ability the wizard has, not magic imbued in the item.
This would also be consistent with a reading that casting an extra spell is a 1/day spell-like ability that the wizard gains, though I don't favour that - more likely, the extra spell is just a spontaneously cast spell slot, as it's "like any other spell cast by the wizard".
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And I think you are stuck on the holy symbol. Holy symbols don't store spells. They are just something for religious casters to focus on as they cast. I don't see the two things related at all.
As the person who brought up holy symbols, I feel there are related.
Arcane Bond - Needed for spells
Holy Symbol - Needed for spells
The only difference I can see between a non-armor/weapon/familiar arcane bond and a holy symbol is the fact you get a arcane bond for free and have to buy a holy symbol.
And I think you are stuck on the arcane bond. Arcane bonds don't store spells. They are just something for arcane casters to focus on as they cast. I don't see the two things related at all.
Arcane Bond, covering both familiars and bonded objects, is listed as an (Ex or Sp) ability, notwithstanding that familiars also grant a few supernatural abilities. The only part of the process that seems to resemble, but is not, a spell is the ritual to replace a lost bonded item or familiar. I conclude that the rest of the time, Arcane Bond is an extraordinary ability.
The bonded item can be used to cast any one spell, in exactly the same sense as the wizard uses it to cast his other, prepared spells: it's an ability the wizard has, not magic imbued in the item.
This would also be consistent with a reading that casting an extra spell is a 1/day spell-like ability that the wizard gains, though I don't favour that - more likely, the extra spell is just a spontaneously cast spell slot, as it's "like any other spell cast by the wizard".
I agree that the arcane bonded item is not inherently magic... it is the focus point. The wizard has invested time and energy to make it a tool to use in his casting of magic. A "cheat sheet" he always carries with him. He is penalized for not having it. Because it is a "crutch" to his casting spells. The wizard that chooses not to use a "cheat" to cast spells, doesn't get those bonuses because it is harder.
I think of it kind of like a guy that always uses a calculator to do math. He can still do it without the calculator, but it is harder for him. Later on, he can upgrade it to an iPhone with hundreds of apps. But the basic item is in itself NOT magical.
Well, as Arcane Bond is listed as either an Ex or Sp ability, I'm inclined to say that the "bonded item" would be the Sp portion of class feature. As it actually grants spell casting functionality to the Wiz. As such, it would, on its own detect as magical.
Now being to identify said bonded item, I would say required Knowledge-Arcana via detect magic.
Well, as Arcane Bond is listed as either an Ex or Sp ability, I'm inclined to say that the "bonded item" would be the Sp portion of class feature. As it actually grants spell casting functionality to the Wiz. As such, it would, on its own detect as magical.
Now being to identify said bonded item, I would say required Knowledge-Arcana via detect magic.
The book specifically says it is used to cast a spell, which is not a spell-like ability.
I think the familiar should be SU, and the item should be EX. That is just my opinion though.
Edit:Actually the familiar is not a spell-like ability either. It seems like they need to be relabeled.
Well, as Arcane Bond is listed as either an Ex or Sp ability, I'm inclined to say that the "bonded item" would be the Sp portion of class feature. As it actually grants spell casting functionality to the Wiz. As such, it would, on its own detect as magical.
Now being to identify said bonded item, I would say required Knowledge-Arcana via detect magic.
The book specifically says it is used to cast a spell, which is not a spell-like ability.
I think the familiar should be SU, and the item should be EX. That is just my opinion though.
Edit:Actually the familiar is not a spell-like ability either. It seems like they need to be relabeled.
Keep in mind also that this "normal" item can also repair itself. There is deffinitely maic involved in its makeup.
Well, as Arcane Bond is listed as either an Ex or Sp ability, I'm inclined to say that the "bonded item" would be the Sp portion of class feature. As it actually grants spell casting functionality to the Wiz. As such, it would, on its own detect as magical.
Now being to identify said bonded item, I would say required Knowledge-Arcana via detect magic.
The book specifically says it is used to cast a spell, which is not a spell-like ability.
I think the familiar should be SU, and the item should be EX. That is just my opinion though.
Edit:Actually the familiar is not a spell-like ability either. It seems like they need to be relabeled.
Keep in mind also that this "normal" item can also repair itself. There is definitely magic involved in its makeup.
Double Post...
I would like to point out the following lines from the Bonded Item description...
The magic properties of a bonded object, including
any magic abilities added to the object, only function for
the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object’s owner dies, or
the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary
masterwork item of the appropriate type.
This comes in BEFORE any mention is even made of being able to use an item that is already magical as a bonded item.
Keep in mind also that this "normal" item can also repair itself. There is deffinitely maic involved in its makeup.Well, as Arcane Bond is listed as either an Ex or Sp ability, I'm inclined to say that the "bonded item" would be the Sp portion of class feature. As it actually grants spell casting functionality to the Wiz. As such, it would, on its own detect as magical.
Now being to identify said bonded item, I would say required Knowledge-Arcana via detect magic.
The book specifically says it is used to cast a spell, which is not a spell-like ability.
I think the familiar should be SU, and the item should be EX. That is just my opinion though.
Edit:Actually the familiar is not a spell-like ability either. It seems like they need to be relabeled.
It repairs with the wizard's rest. It seems to me it is the wizard supplying the magic. If the item was truly magical the wizard would not be needed.
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I would like to point out the following lines from the Bonded Item description...
The magic properties of a bonded object, including
any magic abilities added to the object, only function for
the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object’s owner dies, or
the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary
masterwork item of the appropriate type.This comes in BEFORE any mention is even made of being able to use an item that is already magical as a bonded item.
And I present the question presented to another poster:
The item is not magical until it is perhaps enchanted. There are no details or support for it to be a magical item before this. What would its caster level be? Can it be dispelled and the magic of the item suppressed? What are its saves if unattended? What are the caster levels of additional enchantments on it based upon? How are additional enchantments priced? All of these would need to be detailed out were the item magical, but they are not.
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Arcane Bond, covering both familiars and bonded objects, is listed as an (Ex or Sp) ability, notwithstanding that familiars also grant a few supernatural abilities. The only part of the process that seems to resemble, but is not, a spell is the ritual to replace a lost bonded item or familiar. I conclude that the rest of the time, Arcane Bond is an extraordinary ability.
The bonded item can be used to cast any one spell, in exactly the same sense as the wizard uses it to cast his other, prepared spells: it's an ability the wizard has, not magic imbued in the item.
This would also be consistent with a reading that casting an extra spell is a 1/day spell-like ability that the wizard gains, though I don't favour that - more likely, the extra spell is just a spontaneously cast spell slot, as it's "like any other spell cast by the wizard".
I agree that the arcane bonded item is not inherently magic... it is the focus point. The wizard has invested time and energy to make it a tool to use in his casting of magic. A "cheat sheet" he always carries with him. He is penalized for not having it. Because it is a "crutch" to his casting spells. The wizard that chooses not to use a "cheat" to cast spells, doesn't get those bonuses because it is harder.
I think of it kind of like a guy that always uses a calculator to do math. He can still do it without the calculator, but it is harder for him. Later on, he can upgrade it to an iPhone with hundreds of apps. But the basic item is in itself NOT magical.
Except it can store a spell. And in the description it says your proverbial i-pod magic apps are "Additional", meaning it has magical abilities to start with.
There seems to be a lot of argument trying to make an object that is clearly magic somehow not magic.
The question isn't if the object is or is not magic. It is.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared."
That is a magical ability. Next paragraph
"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat."
Meaning the object has magical abilities already, and more can be added. If you don't believe me, the example given is for a dagger, not a magically dagger, just a dagger.
How to tell what a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item is seems to be a point of debate. Some have said that it is like a holy symbol, which begs the question of if it needs to be brandished as such (it certainly must be wielded or worn). And if not, how does an enemy know?
If the intention was to have Wizards be able to hide it like phylactery, then it would not have to be worn or wielded. That section was added for the specific purpose of creating an exploit to balance what is a pretty powerful add on.
And if there is an intention for it to be at risk to be taken or destroyed, there must be a method for identifying it, in a game where you can make a spellcraft check on any other magic item to determine it's properties.
So this is a question for which the answer is unclear. Which is why everyone should click on the FAQ at the top.
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It repairs with the wizard's rest. It seems to me it is the wizard supplying the magic. If the item was truly magical the wizard would not be needed.Keep in mind also that this "normal" item can also repair itself. There is deffinitely maic involved in its makeup.Well, as Arcane Bond is listed as either an Ex or Sp ability, I'm inclined to say that the "bonded item" would be the Sp portion of class feature. As it actually grants spell casting functionality to the Wiz. As such, it would, on its own detect as magical.
Now being to identify said bonded item, I would say required Knowledge-Arcana via detect magic.
The book specifically says it is used to cast a spell, which is not a spell-like ability.
I think the familiar should be SU, and the item should be EX. That is just my opinion though.
Edit:Actually the familiar is not a spell-like ability either. It seems like they need to be relabeled.
I don't disagree with you. But regardless of the supply source, it is magic. And the question at root is how does an enemy identify what your arcane bonded item is. I reject that you can't, given how clearly it is intended as an exploit and how vulnerable it is explicitly made.
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How can an opponent identify a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item.Can you make a spellcraft check?
Does it detect as magic, even if not imbued?
1. You cannot identify it. There is no mechanism in which to do this.
2. The item is not magical until it is perhaps enchanted. There are no details or support for it to be a magical item before this. What would its caster level be? Can it be dispelled and the magic of the item suppressed? What are its saves if unattended? What are the caster levels of additional enchantments on it based upon? How are additional enchantments priced? All of these would need to be detailed out were the item magical, but they are not.-James
See above or below, several posts have explained why rule as written clearly states the object itself, with or without enhancements, has magical abilities.
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No other items except swords, and armor have that rule. They could also have said the item has to be masterwork to replace your bonded item, and it starts off as magical. Of course it would be written better, but I think you get the point. It makes sense for it to be masterwork to me also, but having an magical connection to the wizard does not make it magical.
No other items need that rule. What would a masterwork amulet need a +1 to hit for?
And having a magical connection to the wizard does make it magical. It is a "magical" connection.
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If the Arcane Bonded Item is magical, would this not mean that a Wand of Negation could reduce it to a mundane item?
After reading the above posts I'm leaning towards it not being magical, much like a holy symbol.
..but it sure *seems* magical.
Curious - does a familiar detect as a magical object/item?
It certainly has magical properties...
If not then I don't see why an Arcane Bonded Item would detect as a magical object/item just because it has seemingly magical properties.
..but hey, who knows for sure?
GO FAQ GO GO GO!
o_o
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See above or below, several posts have explained why rule as written clearly states the object itself, with or without enhancements, has magical abilities.What would its caster level be? Can it be dispelled and the magic of the item suppressed? What are its saves if unattended? What are the caster levels of additional enchantments on it based upon? How are additional enchantments priced?
-James
I don't find the answer to any of these questions in either place. Could you supply any of them?
-James
No. Which is why it is an FAQ question.
I could ask if you can explain how an object with magical abilities isn't subject to detect magic. I could ask you why the developers would explicitly state the object must be worn or wielded, but not provide any methodology for identification.
It is this last part that causes me to reject the premise that the object can't be detected for what it is by an enemy. If that were the intention, it would not need to be worn or wielded. It could be hidden like a phylactery. But even a phylactery can be identified for what it is with a spellcraft check.
Your proposal is that this is the only item in the game that the magical properties it possesses are not detectable, despite it being intended as an exploitable weakness based on the description of the item.
That makes no sense.
This is why FAQ exists. To get clarification from the developers on points that are not clear. I suggest everyone click on the FAQ at the top of the thread, and then we'll get an answer to what is clearly an open question.
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Btw is a spellbook magical? Does it detect magic? What strength? Does it get non-attended saves and at what bonus? Doesn't it enable the wizard to cast spells? What about that piece of guano... doesn't it let the wizard cast a fireball? Doesn't that make it magic guano?-James
Consider me sold on 'Bonded Item not a magical item by default'
However yes, all bat guano is magical. It's awesome stuff.
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Btw is a spellbook magical? Does it detect magic? What strength? Does it get non-attended saves and at what bonus? Doesn't it enable the wizard to cast spells? What about that piece of guano... doesn't it let the wizard cast a fireball? Doesn't that make it magic guano?
-James
Most spellbooks are not magic, but spellbooks can be identified as spellbooks, as bat guano can be identified as bat guano, etc...
By your arguement the only object in the game that can not be identified as what it is would be the arcane bonded weapon.
It only has magical abilities when wielded by a wizard, so your use magic device question does not work, but does show that when wielded it does have magical properties.
If you want to say it can be as easy to identify as a spellbook, or follow others logic that it can be identified like a holy symbol, I am ok with that.
But I think you want it to be the only object in the game that can't be determined, and I think that is ridiculous.
Personally, I think a knowledge arcana check is the way to go, but I await the FAQ response.
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It only has magical abilities when wielded by a wizard, so your use magic device question does not work, but does show that when wielded it does have magical properties.
I think this right here simply kills your argument that its a magical item. Add to that I don't think that you think a dispel magic should be able to suppress a bonded item and I'll call that part officially dead.
As to the rest, it boils down to "I have to have a way to identify a bonded item as a bonded item" and everything else just follows from that.
I think that's a dangerous way to be looking at the rules... its akin to having a hammer and square pegs... all those round holes are going to look square to you.
-James
I view the wizard as the arcane battery that charges the object. I am not sure how you view how the object does what it does.
Every comparable example can be easily identified, and most are not required by rule to be worn or wielded.
At the end of the day, you are asking for the exception, not me.
But we'll see what TPTB rule.
I think the bonded object functions like a focus in a way. Is the focus component for a spell always magical?
Also a use for arcane mark if you have is to put it on your bonded object so you have a way of getting it back(this also works for a spellbook).
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I view the wizard as the arcane battery that charges the object. I am not sure how you view how the object does what it does.Every comparable example can be easily identified, and most are not required by rule to be worn or wielded.
So, again, what caster level is this 'magic' item functioning at? Can it be dispelled? I don't think so.
I don't see it as magical at all. Nor do I see a spellbook as magical, nor a cleric's holy symbol, nor that guano that becomes a fireball.
I see the bonded object as a fulcrum.
Now, let me ask you a question: can one ID an animal companion as an animal companion by knowledge nature? What's the DC? How about a familiar? What skill and what DC?
So you have a 'magic' item than when dropped is no longer 'magic' until it's picked up again by a single wizard... and you're saying that this is NOT an exception of some sort?
Sorry. Again you want a specific thing (being able to determine what a bonded item is by some process) and are willing to use whatever hammer you have in your hand to get it through whichever square peg will get you there.
The bonded object doesn't have the properties of a magic item by itself.
-James
There are two questions. Is it magic and can it be identified as a bonded item.
Your position as I understand it, is that it is both not magic and can not be identified as an arcane bonded item.
As to animal companions, pick up a copy of rise of I believe it was the third part of the runelords adventure path, where you do in fact make a nature check to identify a bear as not just a bear, but an animal companion.
Without the books in front of me here on my phone, the knowledge checks are fairly vague, but say you can identify the skills and abilities of a creature based on your roll relative to cr. Same would apply to a familiar or animal companion, and does when you meet one in combat as a pc. Given this was used in an adventure path, it would seem to me this is accepted.
The item has, by rule as written, magical properties while wielded or worn. These properties should be identifiable.
Let us assume, reasonably I feel, the the bond between the wizard and the object is at minimum a spell like ability, if not the outcome of a spell itself. That process can be detected by applying an arcana check.
Keep in mind that unlike a holy symbol, the object itself both performed a magical ability (allows an extra spell, even if not prepared) and has a penalty when not wielded. Those are spell effects inherent to the object, and the negative effects remain even when not possessed.
If it is a spell or spell like ability that caused these effects, it can be detected using spellcraft or knowledge aracana.
If it is not a spell like ability or spell, what is it?
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I view the wizard as the arcane battery that charges the object. I am not sure how you view how the object does what it does.Every comparable example can be easily identified, and most are not required by rule to be worn or wielded.
So, again, what caster level is this 'magic' item functioning at? Can it be dispelled? I don't think so.
I don't see it as magical at all. Nor do I see a spellbook as magical, nor a cleric's holy symbol, nor that guano that becomes a fireball.
I see the bonded object as a fulcrum.
Now, let me ask you a question: can one ID an animal companion as an animal companion by knowledge nature? What's the DC? How about a familiar? What skill and what DC?
So you have a 'magic' item than when dropped is no longer 'magic' until it's picked up again by a single wizard... and you're saying that this is NOT an exception of some sort?
Sorry. Again you want a specific thing (being able to determine what a bonded item is by some process) and are willing to use whatever hammer you have in your hand to get it through whichever square peg will get you there.
The bonded object doesn't have the properties of a magic item by itself.
-James
There are two questions. Is it magic and can it be identified as a bonded item.
Your position as I understand it, is that it is both not magic and can not be identified as an arcane bonded item.
As to animal companions, pick up a copy of rise of I believe it was the third part of the runelords adventure path, where you do in fact make a nature check to identify a bear as not just a bear, but an animal companion.
Without the books in front of me here on my phone, the knowledge checks are fairly vague, but say you can identify the skills and abilities of a creature based on your roll relative to cr. Same would apply to a familiar or animal companion, and does when you meet one in combat as a pc. Given this was used in an adventure path, it would seem to me this is accepted.
The item has, by rule as written, magical properties while wielded or worn. These properties should be identifiable.
Let us assume, reasonably I feel, the the bond between the wizard and the object is at minimum a spell like ability, if not the outcome of a spell itself. That process can be detected by applying an arcana check.
Keep in mind that unlike a holy symbol, the object itself both performed a magical ability (allows an extra spell, even if not prepared) and has a penalty when not wielded. Those are spell effects inherent to the object, and the negative effects remain even when not possessed.
If it is a spell or spell like ability that caused these effects, it can be detected using spellcraft or knowledge aracana.
If it is not a spell like ability or spell, what is it?
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As to animal companions, pick up a copy of rise of I believe it was the third part of the runelords adventure path, where you do in fact make a nature check to identify a bear as not just a bear, but an animal companion.
Actually, it's a Perception check to see that the bear is wearing a collar, not that it is actually an animal companion.
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There are two questions. Is it magic and can it be identified as a bonded item.Your position as I understand it, is that it is both not magic and can not be identified as an arcane bonded item.
As to animal companions, pick up a copy of rise of I believe it was the third part of the runelords adventure path, where you do in fact make a nature check to identify a bear as not just a bear, but an animal companion.
Modules are never the best sources of rules as they are written by people like you and I. They also go through far less scrutiny than rule books. Still its better than nothing. What was the DC based off of? The druid's level? The druid's CR? Or the animal companion's CR?
The item has, by rule as written, magical properties while wielded or worn. These properties should be identifiable.Let us assume, reasonably I feel, the the bond between the wizard and the object is at minimum a spell like ability, if not the outcome of a spell itself. That process can be detected by applying an arcana check.
Keep in mind that unlike a holy symbol, the object itself both performed a magical ability (allows an extra spell, even if not prepared) and has a penalty when not wielded. Those are spell effects inherent to the object, and the negative effects remain even when not possessed.
1. No, it doesn't have magical properties. Its presence or absence has effects on its wizard. Not the other way around. Again guano doesn't have magical properties (sorry BF) simply because a wizard can cast a fireball with one (PF: that doesn't preclude it being magical, just doesn't give direct proof).
Again its not magic in and of itself. Otherwise my rogue would UMD one...
2. I don't assume that. And one cannot simply use knowledge arcana to see that an armor is magical by observing it in combat, etc. Moreover if a SLA doesn't have any visible effect then how is a knowledge arcana check going to tell you anything? So I don't feel that its...
Part of the issue is I am on a blackberry with no books. I'll respond with specfics when I get home and have access to the books.
But is there any other object of any kind that can't be discerned with some kind of check?
That seems to be what you are proposing the object is.
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Now, let me ask you a question: can one ID an animal companion as an animal companion by knowledge nature? What's the DC? How about a familiar? What skill and what DC?
Animal Companion is treated as the 'animal' type (p.51), so Knowledge (Nature), a familiar is treated a a 'magical beast' type (p.82), so Knowledge (Arcana). In both cases DC = 10 + CR (p.99-100). That's pretty much a no-brainer. As for the 'aura strength' of a bonded item, would it be a stretch to say it matched the caster level of, say, the Wizard it's bonded to?
As to the Bonded Object Vs Holy Symbol bit... the text says a Cleric channels energy through their Holy Symbol, but that a Wizard uses a Bonded Object to actually cast a spell.
But seriously, if the Arcane Bond ability turns an animal into a magical beast, you really think it turns an object into... just a mundane object? Weird.