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But is there any other object of any kind that can't be discerned with some kind of check?
All of them? Unless a magic item has an obvious effect (e.g. "Oh look, it exploded...") it is not possible to discern it is magic without using a detection spell (such as Detect Magic or Arcane Sight) and even then knowing more than "It's Magic. Illusion magic." requires close examination over several rounds.
Even the best wizard needs 3 rounds of looking a weapon over to tell you more than "Strong Evocation."|
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This might be in the book, but I don't have it in front of me...So if the bonded item is a weapon does it bypass DR 5/Magic, if I need a magic weapon to hit something?
Nope.
And a ring of protection doesn't make your fists magicn and throwing a magic amulet with throw anything doesn't make it a magic weapon. And all of this is beside the point.
The question is, can you identify an arcane bonded object, by any means.
And if you can't, is there any other object in the game that can't be identified by some means?
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Now, let me ask you a question: can one ID an animal companion as an animal companion by knowledge nature? What's the DC? How about a familiar? What skill and what DC?
Animal Companion is treated as the 'animal' type (p.51), so Knowledge (Nature), a familiar is treated a a 'magical beast' type (p.82), so Knowledge (Arcana). In both cases DC = 10 + CR (p.99-100). That's pretty much a no-brainer. As for the 'aura strength' of a bonded item, would it be a stretch to say it matched the caster level of, say, the Wizard it's bonded to?
As to the Bonded Object Vs Holy Symbol bit... the text says a Cleric channels energy through their Holy Symbol, but that a Wizard uses a Bonded Object to actually cast a spell.
But seriously, if the Arcane Bond ability turns an animal into a magical beast, you really think it turns an object into... just an object? Weird.
The object is mundane. Wizard bonds with an object. The object does not change.
Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond
must fall into one of the following categories:...
The wizard uses the object to cast the spell. The object does not cast or hold any spells. No more than material components nor foci.
You can think of it like a normal focus component of a spell that the wizard has practised to use exceptionally potently. Or you can think whatever, the point is there is nothing in RAW that determines it must be a magic item. It is also stated nowhere explicitely to be considered a magic item. Therefore there is no way by RAW to conlude it be one.
And though this is enough, even further; Detect Magic and Arcane Sight detect magic item auras by the items caster level. Bonded object has no casterlevel given, so it can't be detected by those means.
And a bit off topic; I can think of no other choise by RAI than for it to be undistinguishable from other items. If you read the sunder rules, all a decent melee character needs is a standard action single sunder check and he will destroy any item posessed by a 1/2 bab caster. No one in their right minds would use a bonded item.
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But is there any other object of any kind that can't be discerned with some kind of check?All of them? Unless a magic item has an obvious effect (e.g. "Oh look, it exploded...") it is not possible to discern it is magic without using a detection spell (such as Detect Magic or Arcane Sight) and even then knowing more than "It's Magic. Illusion magic." requires close examination over several rounds.
Even the best wizard needs 3 rounds of looking a weapon over to tell you more than "Strong Evocation."
I agree. But they are arguing that detect magic would not work period.
The also say no knowledge checks would work, regardless of the roll.
If you have a ring, and I cast detect magic, I can know if it is a magic ring or not. With an appraise check, I can tell you the value, what it is made of, etc...
They are saying no check can determine if an object is arcane bonded.
None.
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But is there any other object of any kind that can't be discerned with some kind of check?All of them? Unless a magic item has an obvious effect (e.g. "Oh look, it exploded...") it is not possible to discern it is magic without using a detection spell (such as Detect Magic or Arcane Sight) and even then knowing more than "It's Magic. Illusion magic." requires close examination over several rounds.
Even the best wizard needs 3 rounds of looking a weapon over to tell you more than "Strong Evocation."I agree. But they are arguing that detect magic would not work period.
The also say no knowledge checks would work, regardless of the roll.
If you have a ring, and I cast detect magic, I can know if it is a magic ring or not. With an appraise check, I can tell you the value, what it is made of, etc...
They are saying no check can determine if an object is arcane bonded.
None.
I don't think it should ping as magical until you add something to it since the casting ability is really inherent to the wizard, not the item.
Once you add something else to it, sure. If you examine it really closely I might even allow a spellcraft/know(arcana) check in my games to figure out what it really is (enchanted or not), but never before they get their hands on it (read: wizard's probably already dead).Whatever the check, it should *not* be easier than discovering the properties of a magic item. And that isn't easy.
I agree. But they are arguing that detect magic would not work period.The also say no knowledge checks would work, regardless of the roll.
You detect magical auras. -snip-
An aura’s power depends on a spell’s functioning
spell level or an item’s caster level; see the accompanying table. If
an aura falls into more than one category, detect magic indicates the
stronger of the two.
Bonded item has no caster level given, so it can't be detected by Detect Magic.
How would a knowledge check be of use, since there is no percieveable difference between a bonded item and any other item of the same type.
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But is there any other object of any kind that can't be discerned with some kind of check?All of them? Unless a magic item has an obvious effect (e.g. "Oh look, it exploded...") it is not possible to discern it is magic without using a detection spell (such as Detect Magic or Arcane Sight) and even then knowing more than "It's Magic. Illusion magic." requires close examination over several rounds.
Even the best wizard needs 3 rounds of looking a weapon over to tell you more than "Strong Evocation."I agree. But they are arguing that detect magic would not work period.
The also say no knowledge checks would work, regardless of the roll.
If you have a ring, and I cast detect magic, I can know if it is a magic ring or not. With an appraise check, I can tell you the value, what it is made of, etc...
They are saying no check can determine if an object is arcane bonded.
None.
I don't think it should ping as magical until you add something to it since the casting ability is really inherent to the wizard, not the item.
Once you add something else to it, sure. If you examine it really closely I might even allow a spellcraft/know(arcana) check in my games to figure out what it really is (enchanted or not), but never before they get their hands on it (read: wizard's probably already dead).
Whatever the check, it should *not* be easier than discovering the properties of a magic item. And that isn't easy.
I have no issue with that. But there needs to be some check of some kind is my point.
Everything else is details.
Others are arguing for no check at all. I disagree.
Except it can store a spell. And in the description it says your proverbial i-pod magic apps are "Additional", meaning it has magical abilities to start with.
It cannot store a spell unless it is a spell storing ring. I'm not sure why you think it stores a spell it does NO SUCH THING AND SAYS NO SUCH THING ANYWHERE IN THE PRD. Additional meaning it MAY have magical abilities to begin with IF IT IS A MAGICAL RING not otherwise. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? Spell Foci are required to cast spells but are NOT inherently magical.
There seems to be a lot of argument trying to make an object that is clearly magic somehow not magic.
The question isn't if the object is or is not magic. It is.
"A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of...
Yes. A bonded item can be used BY THE WIZARD to CAST a spell. The Bonded Item does not cast the spell. L2ENGLISH my friend. Wizards cast spells, a wizard with a bonded item can cast one additional spell. Therefore his item is magical OH WAIT no that's a CLASS ABILITY of the wizard!
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Arcane Bond rings and amulets, etc. use up a body slot location. Mundane items do not - you can wear eight mundane rings as well as your two magical allowed 'body slot' rings, and both still work fine. If one of those eight was an Arcane Bond ring it means either that ring, or one of the other two 'magical' ones, does not work. Same with amulets - you can walk around decked out like Mr T but still the only things which apply to body slot limits are... magic things... (Hey, the body slot section in the book is even entitled 'Magic Items on the Body' - check it out, core book p.459).
Arcane Bond is either (Ex) or (Sp). Since the Witch's Familiar in the APG is listed as (Ex) it seems that, by simple process of elimination, it's the Arcane Bonded object which is (Sp)...
'... Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities...' (p.554)
Detect Magic allows you to detect magic auras. A Wizard can use an Arcane Bonded object to cast any spell he is capable of casting. Therefore a little application of logic would suggest that the aura strength of the object should equal the caster level of the Wizard, wouldn't it?
The object is mundane. Wizard bonds with an object. The object does not change.
If it doesn't change, then how does it 'revert' when the Wizard dies or bonds a different object?
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... First question would be, what's the CR? Normally an animal companion is part of the ranger/druid's CR rather than on its own...
There's pretty extensive rules in the Bestiary about scaling up and down the CR of a creature based on added or subtracted Hit Dice, abilities, etc.. Sure, there's no extra entry in the Druid's level summery to tell us exactly what CR his companion is by itself, but then again there are rules which provide us with a way of calculating that, and it's an issue which won't come up enough to justify the extra space needed to do those calculations for us.
Could a wizard elect to make a knowledge arcana check to determine which of 10 rings worn by the enemy is taking up a slot, is magical, is 'active'?
No - he'd cast Detect Magic and wouldn't even need to roll that check. Sensing the auras is automatic (including aura strength) - it's just the details which require Knowledge checks.
The tools for this are all there in the book - you really have to go out of your way to convolute an Arcane Bonded object into some sort of undetectable, mundane, item (which still lets you cast spells).
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A BBEG elects to wear 5 magical rings. Not all work of...
This is a strawman. The slot rule exists for a reason, and frankly you can detect magic and do a spellcraft check to find out everything there is to know about each ring, if you roll high enough.
The fact is every other item in the game can be identified by some check or another. Even your familiar is subject to Arcana checks as a magical beast, as was pointed out above.
You want the Arcane Bonded object to be an exception.
You are throwing up a lot of other stuff to make this seem complicated, but it comes down to you not wanting another to know what your bonded item is.
I completely agree that it shouldn't be easy to figure out which item is the arcane bonded one, but it should be possible. The rule is written to make the object vulnerable. It makes no sense that the intention was to make it undetectable.
You can't give an example of another item that can't be identified.
The arcane bonded item is a major advantage for a wizard, as it lets you cast any spell you know, without memorizing it. That is HUGE.
But you don't want to accept the intended counterbalance to this HUGE advantage.
ProfPotts sold me on this. The Arcane Bond ability itself says it is Ex or Sp. Since the familiar seems to be the Ex part, then the Bonded Item must be the Sp part.
Bonding a familiar turns it into a magical beast, therefore it would seem consistent that bonding an item would make it a magical item. It could be detected by Detect Magic. It's aura would be equal to the Wizard's caster level and be of no school.
So if a wizard was wearing two rings, an amulet and had a staff in hand and you cast Detect Magic, you would know that the wizard had magical auras on him. After another round you would know that he had 4 magic auras and that the strongest aura was "Strong". On the third round you would know that there are 4 auras and you could make 4 Knowledge Arcana checks to learn the schools. Both rings are strong, no school, the amulet is strong, conjuration and the staff is strong evocation. Which one is the bonded item?
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I'm sorry, what base creature? It might say 'cat, large' or whatever, but that's not an entry in the bestiary.
But I take it that you are saying that there NEEDS to be CR entries for animal companions for knowledge checks on them. I don't see this as wrong, just a result.
Sorry if I didn't fully explain this: the Knowledge skill suggests DCs for various checks, one lot of checks specifically deals with knowing stuff about 'creatures' and gives guidelines (DC 10 + CR). Obviously, just like any other skill check in the game, these checks ultimately come down to how the DM interprets the specific situaton (after all, if every check to identify a critter had a DC of exactly 10 + CR then PCs would know the thing's CR by being asked to roll that number or higher, even if that roll failed). The CR of any creature or encounter also, obviously, has to be mitigated by the DM... it's kinda' part of the job description. Anyway, the upshot of it is, yes - it's pretty easy using the standard rules to set DCs for this stuff.
I do take it though that you don't believe that such checks could determine which tricks that it knows. Right?
Depends on the circumstances. It's a bit like asking if you can read a book without opening it. If you interact enough, or observe enough, the creature in question, then sure, why couldn't a suitably knowlegable person getting a suitably high roll make an educated guess as to which tricks that creature knew? Does that horse carry itself and move like a carthorse, or a warhorse? Perfectly reasonable question to answer with a knowledge check.
Could it determine whether or not the creature had a 3+INT score?
Oh come on - seeing the 'glint of more than animal intelligence' in a creature's eye is a pulp adventure staple! :) Of course, a high Int creature could still disguise its high Int by using Bluff and acting dumb... just like a person could.
When would it determine that the creature was 'an animal companion' rather than just an animal that say could pounce, rake and improved grab? Is this just a special quality to be garnered?
Depends how much you know about the whole process of 'animal companions' and how they're 'made'... if only there as some sort of in-game way to determine if a character knew that sort of stuff... oh wait! ;)
Anyway... all a little off topic.
So far, an Arcane Bonded object:
1. Is a spell-like ability.
2. Takes up a body slot.
3. Must be of masterwork quality.
4. Must be of one of the known / standard magical item types.
5. Acts like a focus (is a requirement to cast spells) and also like a magic item (enables you to cast more spells, auto-heals damage to itself, prevents others from using any additional magical abilities put into it).
6. Requires a magical ritual to be altered into what it is (and reverts if you die or bond a different object).
So... it is used like a magic item and does magic stuff like a magic item... If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Easily solved issues:
Can it be detected as magic through Detect Magic?
Yes - it's magic.
What's its power level?
Same as any other magic thing - the caster level of the biggest spell it can cast.
What's its school?
Any Wizard can choose one, so Universal.
What about Use Magic Device?
Sure - but simulating a Class Ability to trigger a device specifically doesn't give you that Class Ability: the Arcane Bond Class Ability states the Bonded object only works when used by the Wizard it's Bonded to. So, if you steal it your UMD does nothing (except, perhaps, backfire on a low roll); but if your team-mate Wizard is KOd on the floor, you could possibly touch his Bonded object amulet, still around his neck, and use the thing to cast one of his spells. Nifty! (But very much a DM's call).
Can you 'sniper' Detect Magic an Arcane Bonded object?
No more than you could any other magic item - once you detect that it's magic, you still need to make all those neat little rolls to identify what it is.
I see nothing convoluted or 'round peg / square hole' there - just basic application of the normal rules.
What's its power level?
Same as any other magic thing - the caster level of the biggest spell it can cast.
The item can not cast spells.
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The item can not cast spells.Ah, semantics - okay. The caster level of the biggest spell it can be used to cast... just like, say, a wand (which also doesn't 'cast spells' - the user does, using the wand... just like 'guns don't kill people' and all that nonsense).
That would be a fine analogy, if it weren't for it being a terrible analogy. If it were a gun someone else could pick it up and shoot. This is not so for the bonded item. It could be argued that it's a special protection (like the guns from Judge Dredd that could only be used by the owning judge), but I think of it as more of a focus. It holds bullets, but it's not a gun, if you will.
Also, wands can be used by those who can't even cast and are treated more like spell-like abilities than spells. Arcane Bonds are spells that the wizard themselves actually cast.Since there are no magic items I can think of where you still have to actually cast as a spell (rather than spell-like) I'm not sure what a good analogy would be other than the above "It's the ammo, not the gun." analogy.
ProfPotts sold me on this. The Arcane Bond ability itself says it is Ex or Sp. Since the familiar seems to be the Ex part, then the Bonded Item must be the Sp part.
Bonding a familiar turns it into a magical beast, therefore it would seem consistent that bonding an item would make it a magical item. It could be detected by Detect Magic. It's aura would be equal to the Wizard's caster level and be of no school.
So if a wizard was wearing two rings, an amulet and had a staff in hand and you cast Detect Magic, you would know that the wizard had magical auras on him. After another round you would know that he had 4 magic auras and that the strongest aura was "Strong". On the third round you would know that there are 4 auras and you could make 4 Knowledge Arcana checks to learn the schools. Both rings are strong, no school, the amulet is strong, conjuration and the staff is strong evocation. Which one is the bonded item?
Agree 100% with the above. We are forgetting that this is a ring that is bonded to the Wizard.
"If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item."
The important part here is 'special ritual', it does not say 'craft check'. I believe this implies the bonded item is magical.
Also:
"If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell."
The fact that it effects casting in this way should yet more proof of the items magical properties.
Bottom line, it is the DM's call but I would say a bonded item should ping with a detect magic. :) Have fun!
I've removed some posts in this thread. Please keep the conversation civil!
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A BBEG elects to wear 5 magical rings. Not all work of...
This is a strawman. The slot rule exists for a reason, and frankly you can detect magic and do a spellcraft check to find out everything there is to know about each ring, if you roll high enough.
First it wasn't a strawman, simply refuting that knowing it takes up a slot can be used to ID it as a bonded object. You can't determine what's taking up slots.
Second, you have an exaggeration here. If you want to find out more than strength and school of a magic item you need to be able to 'thoroughly examine the object' rather than just spend 3 rounds via detect magic on it while it's say worn in combat by the enemy wizard.
Third you have a result that you require, this is not a good thing to look at rules with... as you will make everything into it.
Fourth, I've asked you questions and you have no answers to any of them. I think you just want it, and that's not sufficient.
-James
You want an item to not be able to be identified and you are trying to turn the argument into something else.
I honestly don't remember which questions you said I didn't answer. I answered a lot of questions. So did Profpotts, more clearly than I did actually.
I do know you have not named another item that can't be identified.
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I'm sorry, what base creature? It might say 'cat, large' or whatever, but that's not an entry in the bestiary.
But I take it that you are saying that there NEEDS to be CR entries for animal companions for knowledge checks on them. I don't see this as wrong, just a result.
Sorry if I didn't fully explain this: the Knowledge skill suggests DCs for various checks, one lot of checks specifically deals with knowing stuff about 'creatures' and gives guidelines (DC 10 + CR). Obviously, just like any other skill check in the game, these checks ultimately come down to how the DM interprets the specific situaton (after all, if every check to identify a critter had a DC of exactly 10 + CR then PCs would know the thing's CR by being asked to roll that number or higher, even if that roll failed). The CR of any creature or encounter also, obviously, has to be mitigated by the DM... it's kinda' part of the job description. Anyway, the upshot of it is, yes - it's pretty easy using the standard rules to set DCs for this stuff.
I do take it though that you don't believe that such checks could determine which tricks that it knows. Right?Depends on the circumstances. It's a bit like asking if you can read a book without opening it. If you interact enough, or observe enough, the creature in question, then sure, why couldn't a suitably knowlegable person getting a suitably high roll make an educated guess as to which tricks that creature knew? Does that horse carry itself and move like a carthorse, or a warhorse? Perfectly reasonable question to answer with a knowledge check.
Could it determine whether or not the creature had a 3+INT score?Oh come on - seeing the 'glint of more than animal intelligence' in a creature's eye is a pulp adventure staple! :) Of course, a high Int creature could still disguise its high Int by using Bluff and acting dumb... just like a person could.
When would it determine that the creature was 'an animal companion' rather than...
This. He's more clear than I am.
Can it be detected as magic through Detect Magic?
Yes - it's magic.What's its power level?
Same as any other magic thing - the caster level of the biggest spell it can cast.
This has been handled already
What's its school?
Any Wizard can choose one, so Universal.
You don't have a rules quote so that is only a guess and a bad one since the item is not magical
Can you 'sniper' Detect Magic an Arcane Bonded object?
No more than you could any other magic item - once you detect that it's magic, you still need to make all those neat little rolls to identify what it is.
This one has been handled also.
The questions about what the items saves are if unattended still have not been handled.
From the PRD:
The four ways to activate magic items are described below.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting........
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler.........No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken.
Command Word:If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it........
Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory....Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself.
The caster does cast the entire spell, so that rules out Spell Completion. This also rules out Spell Trigger. This also rules out Command Word. Use Activated is the best chance, but we have a problem. There is nothing stating that using the bonded item(assuming it was a magic item) is anything other than a standard action. Now if we need a standard action to cast the spell, and a standard action to cast the spell we are out of actions.
Before anyone says it is always on. That applies to items like cloaks of resistance that allow you to always have the save bonus or the cloak of displacement which is also said to be continuous. The bonded item has no such wording.Example:
cloak of displacement, minor:
This item appears to be a normal cloak, but when worn by a character, its magical properties distort and warp light waves. This displacement works similar to the blur spell, granting a 20% miss chance on attacks against the wearer. It functions continually.
It seems the "magic item" is not following the rules or either it is not a magic item.
It sounds to me that the item is magical in proximity to the wizard, but losing its properties away from the caster.
I would expect this is a life bond item, if that makes sense. So, if this is the case, I would say it detects as magic when on the wizard, but is normal if not in possession.
I know you are looking for something more concrete... my two cents.
It seems the "magic item" is not following the rules or either it is not a magic item.
The question is how can it be identified. You seem to be looking for a way an object can do magical things without being magically detected.
In other words you want it both ways.
Something to keep in mind, the arcane bond having an EX or SP designator means the ability is part of the Wizard, not the item. A SP ability that only functions when the caster has it's focus (the wizard being able to cast an extra spell per day) or an "ongoing" SP ability (not having to make DC checks to cast spells because they have their ancestral ring on) I would posit that it is intentionally not called out as magic item to keep people from dropping a 0 level Detect Magic and destroying low to medium level wizards (forcing them to make almost impossible DC's to cast spells) by sundering it. Making the masterwork item inherently magical makes it a target. It makes the item a weakness instead of a bonus, this is pretty much against what Paizo has done with the game. They have been all about giving options and more goodies to classes to make them more attractive, not adding in glaring drawbacks.
Is it so hard to consider that a mundane item acting as a focus for a wizard's SP ability is a possibility? That an item could have no inherent magical ability of it's own (unless intentionally enchanted) influences the wizard's abilities? Like a mental block? Think of it this way, Lycanthropy. SP ability that is influenced by a mundane object (the full moon). The moon isn't magic but yet has something to do with a magical ability of a creature.
This reasoning allows for the item to not be magical and follow the rules as written in the game. Arcane Bond stands as an ability that would be known via an appropriate skill check but that check doesn't let you know what the wizard's greatest weakness is. It shouldn't be that simple, if someone wants to know what it is they should have to watch the wizard at length to figure out his/her "secret" - what item do they ALWAYS have with them, what item are they never without. Which item has been damaged but repaired (which incidentally doesn't mean much as mending would cause the same effect). It would actually make sense that a wizard's bonded item not be magical for these reasons wouldn't you agree?
There has been a debate and discussion that I think needs clarification.
How can an opponent identify a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item.
Can you make a spellcraft check?
Does it detect as magic, even if not imbued?Etc...
So powers that be, how does an opponent identify the wizards bonded object?
In responce to original post:
"How can an opponent identify a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item? "
IF the opponent has knowledge that such an item can exist, I would give it a perception check. With tons and tons of different variables but definitely harder for jewelry and easier for wands and weapons. Or barring that, allow social abilities such as Intimidate or Diplomacy to get the information from the wizard or his trusted friends. Heck, wish, miracle or even communion could do it too. *grins*
"Can you make a spellcraft check?"
As I am in the camp it is not a MAGIC item, I would say no. However, if it were me, I would allow a Knowledge Arcana combined with perception to notice and identify markings or residue left by the "ritual" used in the bonding process.
"Does it detect as magic, even when not imbued? "
Nopers. Especially when not imbued, it does not detect as magic. It is just the wizard's special lucky item that helps him focus his concentration. No inherent magic.
These are my opinions and are based on MY interpretation of the rules. I CAN see and understand the opposite side. For my gaming style, this is the easiest path for me to run the game.
It seems the "magic item" is not following the rules or either it is not a magic item.
The question is how can it be identified. You seem to be looking for a way an object can do magical things without being magically detected.
In other words you want it both ways.
How can it be identified as the bonded item, which is all I think you really care about?
The answer is old fashioned investigation. You do some spying, use some divination spells and so on.The object is nothing more than a focus for a wizard. It does not provide power. It is just the thing that channels it. Since it has no power on its own then it is not magical.
I don't think the bonded item should be impossible to find, but I don't think anyone should just know, anymore than anyone would know I had a cloak of displacement on. If they want to find out why I have concealment they just have to do the legwork.
edit:Our issue is that you see the item as doing the work, but I see the wizard as doing the work. The book even says the wizard cast the spell. The SP is the ability for the wizard to cast a spell through the item, not the item itself. Once you realize it is not the item that is providing the power we might come to an agreement. Actually you said earlier the wizard is providing the power so I don't see why you think the item is magical if you agreed that it has no magical properties. It can't be without magical power, but still be a magic item.
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There has been a debate and discussion that I think needs clarification.
How can an opponent identify a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item.
Can you make a spellcraft check?
Does it detect as magic, even if not imbued?Etc...
So powers that be, how does an opponent identify the wizards bonded object?
In responce to original post:
"How can an opponent identify a Wizard's Arcane Bonded item? "
IF the opponent has knowledge that such an item can exist, I would give it a perception check. With tons and tons of different variables but definitely harder for jewelry and easier for wands and weapons. Or barring that, allow social abilities such as Intimidate or Diplomacy to get the information from the wizard or his trusted friends. Heck, wish, miracle or even communion could do it too. *grins*
"Can you make a spellcraft check?"
As I am in the camp it is not a MAGIC item, I would say no. However, if it were me, I would allow a Knowledge Arcana combined with perception to notice and identify markings or residue left by the "ritual" used in the bonding process.
Spellcraft also covers "the art of casting spells", so I think that's still appropriate. Difficulty of this check doesn't really have much to do with spell level or caster level. Probably the Knowledge (arcana) usage to identify spells that could be cast with a given material component is closest (though still not particularly close) and suitably difficult. I propose:
Confirm that a wizard casting a spell is using a bonded object -- Spellcraft, DC 20
Confirm which of the objects a character wears or wields are masterwork items -- Appraise, DC 15
Identify an item in your possession as a bonded object -- Knowledge (arcana), DC 20
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Slight tangent: I'm going to have my wizard, who has a toad familiar, carry around a bucket of toads - and make sure he stuffs a few in his pockets and hat for good measure.
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How can it be identified as the bonded item, which is all I think you really care about?
The answer is old fashioned investigation. You do some spying, use some divination spells and so on.
The object is nothing more than a focus for a wizard. It does not provide power. It is just the thing that channels it. Since it has no power on its own then it is not magical.
I don't think the bonded item should be impossible to find, but I don't think anyone should just know, anymore than anyone would know I had a cloak of displacement on. If they want to find out why I have concealment they just have to do the legwork.
What can you investigate? You have left given no methodology to identify it.
I can identify a cloak of concealment using existing rules. By your arguments there is no way to identify the bonded item.
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.....Slight tangent: I'm going to have my wizard, who has a toad familiar, carry around a bucket of toads - and make sure he stuffs a few in his pockets and hat for good measure.
Now, if he also carried a wand and named each of his toads "Wanda" and spoka lika disa that would be confuzzlementx3.
How can it be identified as the bonded item, which is all I think you really care about?
The answer is old fashioned investigation. You do some spying, use some divination spells and so on.
The object is nothing more than a focus for a wizard. It does not provide power. It is just the thing that channels it. Since it has no power on its own then it is not magical.
I don't think the bonded item should be impossible to find, but I don't think anyone should just know, anymore than anyone would know I had a cloak of displacement on. If they want to find out why I have concealment they just have to do the legwork.
What can you investigate? You have left given no methodology to identify it.
I can identify a cloak of concealment using existing rules. By your arguments there is no way to identify the bonded item.
Why on earth should there be, other than experience and perception?
A LOT of things in this game have magical and non-magical purposes. A wizard needs a pinch of bat guano to cast fireball, it is also used for fertilizer. If someone is in a garden spreading around some bat guano do you shout "OMG DUCK HES GONNA FIREBALL US!"? Of course not. It's context. Why should a wizard have an off switch that is easily identifiable? Wizards have always had their achilles heel (familiar, spellbook) which can screw them IF you know how to get to it. If a wizard keeps his familiar in a pocket all day and night how should someone know that he even has one?Stop looking at it as a magic item (since it demonstrably is NOT until enchanted) and look at it as a class feature. Can you look at a fighter and determine his specialization? How about a cleric and his domains? How about looking at just some dude and being able to tell he has sneak attack? You can't, not without experiencing a knife to the kidney, the healing touch, etc.
Can you look at a wizard and tell what his chosen school is? No, but if he heavily favors evocation spells, it's a safe bet... Same with bonded item. If they are waving a wand around, you could guess it is that, but you might be wrong. What you seem to want is to be able to AUTOMATICALLY tell what a wizard's weaknesses are, without doing any legwork. No dice pally, move along.
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How can it be identified as the bonded item, which is all I think you really care about?
The answer is old fashioned investigation. You do some spying, use some divination spells and so on.
The object is nothing more than a focus for a wizard. It does not provide power. It is just the thing that channels it. Since it has no power on its own then it is not magical.
I don't think the bonded item should be impossible to find, but I don't think anyone should just know, anymore than anyone would know I had a cloak of displacement on. If they want to find out why I have concealment they just have to do the legwork.
What can you investigate? You have left given no methodology to identify it.
I can identify a cloak of concealment using existing rules. By your arguments there is no way to identify the bonded item.
Why on earth should there be, other than experience and perception?
A LOT of things in this game have magical and non-magical purposes. A wizard needs a pinch of bat guano to cast fireball, it is also used for fertilizer. If someone is in a garden spreading around some bat guano do you shout "OMG DUCK HES GONNA FIREBALL US!"? Of course not. It's context. Why should a wizard have an off switch that is easily identifiable? Wizards have always had their achilles heel (familiar, spellbook) which can screw them IF you know how to get to it. If a wizard keeps his familiar in a pocket all day and night how should someone know that he even has one?Stop looking at it as a magic item (since it demonstrably is NOT until enchanted) and look at it as a class feature. Can you look at a fighter and determine his specialization? How about a cleric and his domains? How about looking at just some dude and being able to tell he has sneak attack? You can't, not without experiencing a knife to the kidney, the healing touch, etc.
Can you look at a wizard and tell what his chosen school is? No, but if he heavily favors evocation spells, it's a safe...
You aren't reading.
I've said I personally think it should be an Arcana check.
How do you feel an opponent should be able to determine it.
Spellcraft also covers "the art of casting spells", so I think that's still appropriate. Difficulty of this check doesn't really have much to do with spell level or caster level. Probably the Knowledge (arcana) usage to identify spells that could be cast with a given material component is closest (though still not particularly close) and suitably difficult.
I don't think anyone is arguing that you are unable to identify casting a spell with spellcraft. The problem with your take on it is, the wizard IS capable of casting a spell without the bonded item... Yes it is more difficult and requires a spellcraft roll on their part BUT (HUGE "but") you wouldn't ever know that roll was made. You know they are casting something and you might see them finish casting the spell and be able to identify that spell as it is completed, however you haven't got a damn clue if they had an arcane bonded item on them or didn't and had to make a roll to cast the spell or if they have a familiar who isn't around... The difficulty a wizard has if the arcane bonded object on them isn't actually observable via skill check. There are no rules that allow you to make a skill check and say "Oh hey, he flubbed a roll to cast a spell without his arcane bonded item and the spell fizzled."
Confirm that a wizard casting a spell is using a bonded object -- Spellcraft, DC 20
Well, not really. The item has to be worn or on hand for them to cast a spell. It doesn't have to be brandished, it isn't the main focus of all their spells. It just has to be in hand. A wand could easily be in hand and not used. The only time it would be "obvious" is if you cast Detect Magic and spend the time to see what was and wasn't magical on the character. I would then say OK, it is odd that they are carrying around a non magical wand maybe that means something. If they enchanted the wand it wouldn't be so out of place and therefore it wouldn't be "obvious".
That said, this roll is not anything worth considering. The bonded object isn't used in any appreciable way to give it away.
Confirm which of the objects a character wears or wields are masterwork items -- Appraise, DC 15
First off DC's start at 20 so why they heck would it be EASIER to discern the value of a masterwork bonded item? Start from 20 and then realize that a real appraisal typically requires handling and closely inspecting an item. Masterwork rings? Well damn can't see them as they are wearing gloves. Masterwork amulet? Well damn can't see it as it is under the shirt. Masterwork wand/staff/weapon? Well damn they are adventurers AND there are traits and feats out there that increase starting money and give masterwork items at first level.
Great... They have a masterwork item, doesn't mean they have a bonded item. A bonded weapon is FAR from ornamental.
Identify an item in your possession as a bonded object -- Knowledge (arcana), DC 20
Again, not really. The bonded weapon doesn't work for anyone besides the wizard it is bonded to. This isn't even a "fool proof" way to determine a bonded item. There are rules to limit who items work for. I use them all the time to keep items out of the hands of others and/or reduce the cost of the item. You can identify it is magical. You can figure out it isn't doing squat for you. Unless it all the sudden becomes non magical (the wizard realizes the loss/creates a new bonded item) you can't be 100% sure about that.
How can it be identified as the bonded item, which is all I think you really care about?
The answer is old fashioned investigation. You do some spying, use some divination spells and so on.
The object is nothing more than a focus for a wizard. It does not provide power. It is just the thing that channels it. Since it has no power on its own then it is not magical.
I don't think the bonded item should be impossible to find, but I don't think anyone should just know, anymore than anyone would know I had a cloak of displacement on. If they want to find out why I have concealment they just have to do the legwork.
What can you investigate? You have left given no methodology to identify it.
I can identify a cloak of concealment using existing rules. By your arguments there is no way to identify the bonded item.
You can spy on the wizard, and use divination spells. How else would you gain information(investigate) about someone? I think you are looking for an immediate "I know what the bonded item is", but not all things are that easy. It would be just like if a cleric had several items with a picture of his holy symbol on them. There is no "detect holy symbol" mechanic. You just have to use your wits to find out which one is not the bogus one. It is not impossible to find out. Has your DM not ever given you any mystery based adventures/encounters?
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You can spy on the wizard, and use divination spells. How else would you gain information(investigate) about someone? I think you are looking for an immediate "I know what the bonded item is", but not all things are that easy. It would be just like if a cleric had several items with a picture of his holy symbol on them. There is no "detect holy symbol" mechanic. You just have to use your wits to find out which one is not the bogus one. It is not impossible to find out. Has your DM not ever given you any mystery based adventures/encounters?
How can it be identified as the bonded item, which is all I think you really care about?
The answer is old fashioned investigation. You do some spying, use some divination spells and so on.
The object is nothing more than a focus for a wizard. It does not provide power. It is just the thing that channels it. Since it has no power on its own then it is not magical.
I don't think the bonded item should be impossible to find, but I don't think anyone should just know, anymore than anyone would know I had a cloak of displacement on. If they want to find out why I have concealment they just have to do the legwork.
What can you investigate? You have left given no methodology to identify it.
I can identify a cloak of concealment using existing rules. By your arguments there is no way to identify the bonded item.
Actually, to detect a holy symbol you roll a religion check.
What divination spells would you use? What are you looking for when you are spying? What rolls do you make?
Some above are arguing there is no way to tell, as it is a mundane object.
One example of why I disagree is as follows. From the decription "The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the appropriate type."
Reading that a few things jump out.
1. The object has magic properties other than magic abilities added to it, otherwise it wouldn't have to be "including any magic abilities added to the object"
2. If the owner dies or the item is replaced, it "reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item...". Which means it is not an ordinary masterwork item before it is replaced or the owner dies.
You keep saying "investigate". What am I looking for?
One example of why I disagree is as follows. From the decription "The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the...
Strange, I read that quite differently than you. I take that to mean, if I have a +1 keen dagger and make it my bonded item, for everyone else, it now is only a masterwork dagger. For me it is the +1 keen dagger it used to be.
Addendum: Reread the next paragraph concerning bonding existing magic items. Gonna have to tell my wizzie player I was wrong about the inherent magic not working for others. Still think a base masterwork item is not inherently magical as a bonded item though. *grins*
You can spy on the wizard, and use divination spells. How else would you gain information(investigate) about someone? I think you are looking for an immediate "I know what the bonded item is", but not all things are that easy. It would be just like if a cleric had several items with a picture of his holy symbol on them. There is no "detect holy symbol" mechanic. You just have to use your wits to find out which one is not the bogus one. It is not impossible to find out. Has your DM not ever given you any mystery based adventures/encounters?
How can it be identified as the bonded item, which is all I think you really care about?
The answer is old fashioned investigation. You do some spying, use some divination spells and so on.
The object is nothing more than a focus for a wizard. It does not provide power. It is just the thing that channels it. Since it has no power on its own then it is not magical.
I don't think the bonded item should be impossible to find, but I don't think anyone should just know, anymore than anyone would know I had a cloak of displacement on. If they want to find out why I have concealment they just have to do the legwork.
What can you investigate? You have left given no methodology to identify it.
I can identify a cloak of concealment using existing rules. By your arguments there is no way to identify the bonded item.
Actually, to detect a holy symbol you roll a religion check.
What divination spells would you use? What are you looking for when you are spying? What rolls do you make?
Some above are arguing there is no way to tell, as it is a mundane object.
One example of why I disagree is as follows. From the decription "The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the...
If there are five items that could all pose as a holy symbol is what I was saying. The job in my scenario was to find out which one he considers to the one that he cares about since the rules say the item should hold spritual importance, all of them looking similar is not enough.
OMG. Are you really not able to figure these out for yourself? If I was your DM and someone had several fake ______, how would you go about finding the real one?Nobody is saying there is no way to tell. They are saying you can't just look at the wizard, and make a roll, or use magic to instantly know. There is a difference between not able to know right now, and not ever being able to know. Now if you can tell me who said what about never being able to know I can help you with that, because that is just nonsense.
I already explained you last paragraph. It have been in the other thread though.
I am going to let you stew in that investigate one. If you come back with some proposals I will say ya or nay. For me to give you the answer is like if I say I can get a fighters AC above 45, and then you expect me to tell you without you putting any effort into it.
The game has ways of allowing you to find information on someone. Some are mundane, and others are magical. For the sake of this story we can assume Bobby the bonded wizard is an NPC you are trying to scout out.
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One example of why I disagree is as follows. From the decription "The magic properties of a bonded object, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the wizard who owns it. If a bonded object's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the object reverts to being an ordinary masterwork item of the...Strange, I read that quite differently than you. I take that to mean, if I have a +1 keen dagger and make it my bonded item, for everyone else, it now is only a masterwork dagger. For me it is the +1 keen dagger it used to be.
Next paragraph clarifies that.
"If a bonded object is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the wizard prepares his spells. If the object of an arcane bond is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per wizard level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Items replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded item. A wizard can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed item except that the new magic item retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded item."
Meaning to me that the +1 Keen Dagger you made into your bonded weapon is always going to be a +1 Keen Dagger for anyone who uses it, but none of the additional magical properties of being a bonded item (including any additional properties you give it using the bonded object crafting stuff) function.
Otherwise, this could be used to de-magic artifacts. (bond with an artifact, then pick another bonded object and by your reading the artifact would demagic)
Have I ever told you you're my hero?
Did I ever mention that that helmet really brings out the beauty of your eyes?
Now, if he also carried a wand and named each of his toads "Wanda" and spoka lika disa that would be confuzzlementx3.
Have I ever told you you're my hero?
Did I ever mention that that helmet really brings out the beauty of your eyes?
Now, if he also carried a wand and named each of his toads "Wanda" and spoka lika disa that would be confuzzlementx3.