This is mainly just a thought exercise. What if the only magic items you could buy would be consumables, essentially just wands, scrolls, and potions. Everything else is pretty much too valuable or rare to pick up no matter what size town you are going to.
You can still sell magic items. And the assumption isn't that there is no magic or that you don't need appropriate items to work the way the rules assume your character will work . . . but . . . if you want the "right" items, someone in the party will have to know how to make them.
Of course, with Master Craftsman, it no long has to just be the casters, but someone has to take those item creation feats if anyone wants magic items.
How does this play out? Does it work for established adventure paths? Is it easier to account for in a "homemade" campaign? Too much work?
Keep in mind, I'm just interested in people's thoughts, how this might affect the campaign, and how it might affect the fun people have in the game. I'm not saying its a good idea, and I'm not saying its a bad idea, I just want to discuss how this plays out if it actually were to be implemented.
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This is how I try to run all of my games, I believe that magic should not grow on trees but that is just my opinion.
Now for how it works in most adventure paths. well it most likely will not work in most adventure paths as the game is written with the assumption that players can and will go out and but the magic items it needs as it is implied in the base concept of the game that the characters will have certain capabilities from magic items.
Homebrew it works much much more simply, you created the world and rules so you set the rules and guidelines for buying magical items.
Now for how it works in most adventure paths. well it most likely will not work in most adventure paths as the game is written with the assumption that players can and will go out and but the magic items it needs as it is implied in the base concept of the game that the characters will have certain capabilities from magic items.
Oh, I understand that the core assumption is having something that's appropriate to your level, I guess I'm just wondering, if everyone (or a few someones) in the party picked up the right item creation feats, does the loss of a few feats throw off the character so badly that they can't keep up on the feat side of things, since those feats would still let them have the items they need.
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Oh, I understand that the core assumption is having something that's appropriate to your level, I guess I'm just wondering, if everyone (or a few someones) in the party picked up the right item creation feats, does the loss of a few feats throw off the character so badly that they can't keep up on the feat side of things, since those feats would still let them have the items they need.
Now for how it works in most adventure paths. well it most likely will not work in most adventure paths as the game is written with the assumption that players can and will go out and but the magic items it needs as it is implied in the base concept of the game that the characters will have certain capabilities from magic items.
I don't think so. I think it should work out just fine as long as they stick to one or possibly 2 types of creation feats. I usually try to pick up at least one with my caster types albeit it is usually only craft wand.
This is mainly just a thought exercise. What if the only magic items you could buy would be consumables, essentially just wands, scrolls, and potions. Everything else is pretty much too valuable or rare to pick up no matter what size town you are going to.
You can still sell magic items. And the assumption isn't that there is no magic or that you don't need appropriate items to work the way the rules assume your character will work . . . but . . . if you want the "right" items, someone in the party will have to know how to make them.
Of course, with Master Craftsman, it no long has to just be the casters, but someone has to take those item creation feats if anyone wants magic items.
How does this play out? Does it work for established adventure paths? Is it easier to account for in a "homemade" campaign? Too much work?
Keep in mind, I'm just interested in people's thoughts, how this might affect the campaign, and how it might affect the fun people have in the game. I'm not saying its a good idea, and I'm not saying its a bad idea, I just want to discuss how this plays out if it actually were to be implemented.
Homebrews-It can work but CR's have to be adjusted down.
AP's-People will die unless dice are fudged. There are two threads on the issue. One has the fighter losing about 40% effectiveness by level 10.edit:I misread your post. As long as you give them the downtime it might work, but I would discuss it with the players first. Being forced to use feats might not be fun for them.
Keep in mind, I'm just interested in people's thoughts, how this might affect the campaign, and how it might affect the fun people have in the game. I'm not saying its a good idea, and I'm not saying its a bad idea, I just want to discuss how this plays out if it actually were to be implemented.
In my experience it works out just fine (including for APs), but either:
A) Someone really does need to take those feats, or,
B) The DM needs to tailor the treasure pretty well to his party.
For a published adventure, if you're not comfortable changing the treasure that's already in there, the half-alternative to B is to clue your players into what to expect before character creation. e.g. "Ok, in this campaign, you're going to encounter a lot of magic greataxes, and I mean a lot of magic greataxes."
Let's throw another variable into this . . . if there are no magic item purchases, other than expendables, what would happen if you allowed magic items to be sold for their full value?
Also, I'm thinking if you can buy scrolls, wands, and potions, that leaves Craft Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Craft Rod, and Craft Staff, if you want to make sure the whole range of magic items can be made. So in a five person party, each one can pick up a feat, if they can actually use the ability. I agree, though, the feat investment is considerable. Might skew things towards humans a bit, perhaps?
By forcing people into the item creation feats, you channel them into exploiting those feats for all they're worth. And in Pathfinder, they're worth about twice the gold value of the specific items they're going to be making. In effect, for a few feats each you'll be be close to doubling the party's wealth progression, as long as they spend most of their cash on magic items. This might not be exactly what you're going for.
That is true . . . the feat expenditure is heavier, but the reward is a bit greater. It does also make my other variable even more of a wild card (as posted above).
How do you maintain verisimilitude when the PC's can sell items but not buy them?
I mean in theory- if you are selling magical items then there is at least Some market for them.. a market that the PC's can also purchase from.
-otherwise- it should work fine as long as you either tailor items to the PC's so they get what they 'need'** or you adjust encounter CR's to make up for the fact that they don't.
**need here is defined by the magical weapons, armors, and stat boosters that the PC should have for their level to keep the CR guidelines in tact.
-S
I don't know how I maintain my verisimilitude in real life, because I can't believe half the s%@& I see.
Let's throw another variable into this . . . if there are no magic item purchases, other than expendables, what would happen if you allowed magic items to be sold for their full value?
Also, I'm thinking if you can buy scrolls, wands, and potions, that leaves Craft Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Craft Rod, and Craft Staff, if you want to make sure the whole range of magic items can be made. So in a five person party, each one can pick up a feat, if they can actually use the ability. I agree, though, the feat investment is considerable. Might skew things towards humans a bit, perhaps?
What is your goal?
Are you just looking for the effects of a mechanical variation?Are you trying to change the feel of magic items in your campaign?
Are you trying to limit items and/or feats?
One thing to note, is that at low levels it's only one or two feats, with a new option added every few levels. Like Craft Staff isn't available until fairly late, though staffs aren't common drops early on either.
One notable exception is rods, particularly metamagic. The lesser metamagic rods, especially extend, silent and still are fairly cheap, but you still have to be very high level to craft them. You're players will never see them unless you house rule those to be lower caster level requirements.
One potential idea is to allow Master Craftsmen to "rework" items at lower cost to make it an interesting investment. Like reforging a sword, making alterations to a cloak or ring, with appropriate feats and skills of course. Similar items would have lower DC's, while differently themed items would be harder. Just an idea.
I've always been a fan of finding, or better yet, searching for choice magic items.
Say the Fighter wants a magic sword. Well, the Wizard has read of the Legendary Sword of Klu'Ya. And Elric the Thief has a scroll for sale that may tell the location. Instant adventure! Plus Fighter gets a sword.
I do feel there should be a market for magic items, both buying and selling, but "Magic R Us" shouldn't exist. I mean, merchants that regularly deal in items that cost more than they could make in a hundred years? Not possible. So, sure, maybe you could afford an aircraft carrier, but finding where to buy one is and adventure in it's own right.
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This is mainly just a thought exercise. What if the only magic items you could buy would be consumables, essentially just wands, scrolls, and potions. Everything else is pretty much too valuable or rare to pick up no matter what size town you are going to.
I kind of use this plus the Faction Guide in my games and it has worked very well. Potions, scrolls and wands are fairly simple to find on the open market (within reason), and characters can pretty easily find someone to enchant weapons/armor up to a +1 bonus, but for everything else a character needs to "go through his contacts" with a faction to arrange purchase.
We have never used "magic malls" and everyone seems to get along just fine.
This is mainly just a thought exercise. What if the only magic items you could buy would be consumables, essentially just wands, scrolls, and potions. Everything else is pretty much too valuable or rare to pick up no matter what size town you are going to.
You can still sell magic items. And the assumption isn't that there is no magic or that you don't need appropriate items to work the way the rules assume your character will work . . . but . . . if you want the "right" items, someone in the party will have to know how to make them.
Of course, with Master Craftsman, it no long has to just be the casters, but someone has to take those item creation feats if anyone wants magic items.
How does this play out? Does it work for established adventure paths? Is it easier to account for in a "homemade" campaign? Too much work?
Keep in mind, I'm just interested in people's thoughts, how this might affect the campaign, and how it might affect the fun people have in the game. I'm not saying its a good idea, and I'm not saying its a bad idea, I just want to discuss how this plays out if it actually were to be implemented.
More than anything the logical errors in it are too big for me to just gloss over as a player.
I can buy a wand of restoration for how much but I cannot find a +2 magical sword for less than half that amount? However I can still sell stuff without a problem -- but this stuff is too valuable for me to buy?
Sorry it just doesn't work on any level for me -- I would need something else to make it convincing.
Now if almost all magical items were like the arcane bond items where they would only work for a specific person then maybe this idea could work -- but at that point I would kind of expect a "weapon of legacy" sort of thing going on where the items I have "grow" with me in power as I level up.
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That said I've played in games where we generally didn't have the means to buy what we wanted. These typically ended in one of two ways:
1. The DM doesn't provide enough treasure for wealth by level to be matched, and doesn't provide character appropriate treasure leaving the falchion specialist fighter with a magical great axe instead, while the wizard has a couple of dozen clerical scrolls he can't use and a candle of invocation and the rogue has a magical bow when he's a two weapon fighting rogue. In the end the players are frustrated due to inability to use the stuff they find or get stuff they want to use -- the GM is frustrated because the players are and the fact they can't just "handle it" or can't face the challenges that *should* be within their abilities. Game breaks down no one is happy.
2. The Gm does in fact pay attention to what is handed out and makes sure enough gear is available to cover the party's needs -- even if it isn't all exactly what people might have wanted. Everyone has to "make due" with a few magical items they would rather trade out but for the most part have the vital pieces that make their characters work.
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Over all the GM has to establish a good fluff reason why stuff can't be found (but could be sold) and has to be sure to keep the player's trust that he isn't going to just put in useless stuff (oh look we are level 16 and we've found our seventh pile of +1 weapons and armor -- to bad we can't find anything more useful than a +2 toothpick of sucking) or that all the NPCs will be decked out in *exactly* the right gear for them with full on christmas tree Bling when the players aren't.
Is your party consist of nothing but full casters? (For this purpose, bard is not a full caster)
Are you handing out magic items with a shovel?
If you answered no to either of these questions don't expect a game to go past level 5 unless you throwing nothing but humanoids with warrior levels at the party rather than level appropriate creatures.
Bear with me here . . . are you saying that, even if players step up and burn a few feats, and are given time to craft items themselves, that this will still be the result?
More than anything the logical errors in it are too big for me to just gloss over as a player.
I can buy a wand of restoration for how much but I cannot find a +2 magical sword for less than half that amount? However I can still sell stuff without a problem -- but this stuff is too valuable for me to buy?
Sorry it just doesn't work on any level for me -- I would need something else to make it convincing.
So, for example, it wouldn't work for you to know there are just very few high level casters, and of those high level casters, there are very few that have taken crafting feats?
Its not that its not possible for those items to be crafted, but just in general, most high level casters that aren't adventurers just don't craft.
As I pointed out above, I'm mainly playing devil's advocate, but I guess, having been on both sides of the screen, if a GM told me that most permanent items aren't for sale, I probably wouldn't think twice about it.
Then again, I'm not the type that wonders how many high level characters exist in the campaign total, and why they aren't fixing problems instead of me.
Also, I've seen a few times people point out that they have a hard time with someone being able to sell an item but not buy one . . . but this happens in the real world all of the time. People sell rare manuscripts, artwork, etc. all of the time, and there are buyers, but as a buyer, you may wait a lifetime for a particular piece of artwork to be for sale.
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I'm not a big fan of Ackbar and Jeff's Wondrous Item Hut either, but I've found a compromise by limiting the amount of purchasable magic items to what the merchant/caster can create. It takes a little more work than just saying, "here's the book, have at it," but it keeps the level of equipment to a manageable level.
For instance, Spishak Kilbane, a level 6 Adept with craft wondrous item, brew potion and craft wand runs the local magic shoppe. Being level 6, he's limited to creating items using spells he can cast. Similarly, Kate Farrier, a level 7 expert with Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, can supply the party with pretty basic enchanted weapons. I've only had one player complain but he's a power gamer so I mostly ignore him.
I figure if a PC can just walk into a store and purchase a +3 sword at will, there's little reason for him to go earn one by killing a dragon and taking its loot. There's also little stopping him from making a character, willing his treasure to his cousin, getting his character killed and then coming back as his character's cousin and inheriting the dead PC's stuff, which he combines with his own starting funds to promptly purchase a +3 sword.
I've seen it happen.
Oh, I know, there are certainly ways to allow PCs to purchase items without having a huge emporium of magic show up. I've had players wait for items to be made, I've had weird interstellar merchants to show up (i.e. Mercane or the like, but not be available all the time), and had PCs have to ask around a city to find a retired adventurer that happened to have some gear appropriate for their class.
I'm just kind of interested in seeing if people think that this particular idea, of all permanent magic items being PC born and bred, is viable, and why people think it might not be.
My personal opinion is actually that I wouldn't want to force my players into take the feat slots, so I'd likely never actually try this. But with all of the magic item discussion flying around, I thought I'd see what people thought about this idea.
Any market conditions that make it impossible for PCs to buy magic items at any price, no matter how high, will equally make it impossible for PCs to sell magic items at any price, no matter how low.
Any market conditions that make it impossible for PCs to buy magic items at any price, no matter how high, will equally make it impossible for PCs to sell magic items at any price, no matter how low.
I'm not quite following. If I have the only one of something, and its naturally valuable, someone will buy it. If something does not exist . . . said item is very, very rare and not in existence where I am . . . no matter how much gold I have, I can't buy something that isn't available.
I honestly don't see a whole lot of difference between magic mart and item creation feats. In both cases, the players set out with a goal in mind and then they get what they were looking for. The item creation feats just limit their choices, but gives them the items at half cost. If a player is trying to get a +1 shocking longsword, he gets it either way though.
I still think the best thing you can do for magic items is to dress them up better. Give a cool description, a name and 2-3 sentences of history. The item isn't just stats, it's a story and that's what the game is all about. Not everything needs a story, but items with a past or link to the characters are the ones that live on in player's memories.
I've generally set caster level 5 as about the limit of what can be commonly found in a decently sized city's markets. Smaller communities, lower caster level, and possibly restricted to certain types (only crafter of note in town is a level 5 expert armorsmith? only armors then).
Anything higher than 5, theres three main options:
Make it yourself.
Get someone else to make it.
Find it and take it.
Each of those options obviously has its own advantages and drawbacks. Making it yourself is the generally best solution, but involves sacrifice of personal power in form of feats.
Getting someone else to make it usually involves a long delay, because you are rarely first in line. Granted, you could bump yourself up in line, but that would involve bribes, doing extra favors/quests for the crafter, or killing/scaring off other customers.
Find and take's issues stem from who has the item and where is it kept. That +2 holy dragonbane greatsword? Lost in the Blacklight Tunnels with it's wielder, Sir Ponce, when he went into the darkness to destroy the evil dragon Fuzzylumpkins. The dragon's death throes brought down the cavern where they fought, perhaps the sword still lies buried under the rubble? Oh, that +5 seeking bow? The Elven Princess carries one, a symbol of the royal line.
Course, sometimes I throw out curveballs. A really nice item, potentially dangerous recovery, turns out the big monster guarding it died, and the PCs are the first to get there. Score!
well i have never been a fan of "the magic emporiums". I'm like a lot of DM's (from the numerous threads)that magic shops take away from the uniqueness or majesty of magical items. but without changing the whole magic item systems of the game it's not an easy task to correct. plus changing one aspect of crafting magic items could have ramifications on spells, classes, and other rules that you didn't anticipate. And then theres the player aspect, players need magical gear to stay competitive as CR assume appropriate gear. yeah you could easily adjust CR but there's also the fun factor. players like magic items! It's not fun for a player to have the same old iron sword or same AC there whole carrier once they get the best armor the can wear and utilize. plus from a Dms perspective a +1,2,3 this or that really doesn't change anything when CR's start going up. For instance-bob gets a magical +1 sword but since creatures are stronger now because of CR going up he has to hit a 1 higher AC or the monster has more HP. being stronger is really all in the players head (most players don't every consider this lmao)! So why take that excitement away when a player finally saves up and gets whats he's been waiting for?
I've seen numerous house rules on magical items keeping it rare and changing the system. some are interesting, good ideas, bad ideas, but also i have seen most not even consider how rule X would work or be cancelled out or what would happen with X class. SO i prefer to keep the standerd rule magic emporium even though i'm not a fan of it just for simplicity and ease of use. which i think is why PF never had alternate rule books for handling different ways to create magic items. It would be as big as the core rulebook if they had to explain how every other class and rule would work with such a system.
Abraham spalding also had a really good point ". The DM doesn't provide enough treasure for wealth by level to be matched, and doesn't provide character appropriate treasure leaving the falchion specialist fighter with a magical great axe instead, while the wizard has a couple of dozen clerical scrolls he can't use and a candle of invocation and the rogue has a magical bow when he's a two weapon fighting rogue. In the end the players are frustrated due to inability to use the stuff they find or get stuff they want to use -- the GM is frustrated because the players are and the fact they can't just "handle it" or can't face the challenges that *should* be within their abilities. Game breaks down no one is happy."
I think many Dm's never alter the magical items in aps or adventures and this can lead to a flood of magical items being sold and i feel this takes away from the uniqueness of magical items as player just see the item as gold and pawn it off for something they can better use. as long as the VALUE is the same i encourage DM's to modify treasure to there parties needs. while you can't predict exactly what a player truely wants you can atleast make sure the items can be taken advantage of and encourage the party to keep the item. the only draw back to handing out tailored treasure is you need to make sure everyone is getting equal opportunities.
more on topic KnightErrantJR- there's no reason making strong magic items not purchasable will never play out but there is some major things to keep in mind. if this is how your going to run your campaign it needs to be explained from the start to the players! 2nd this will make players weaker overall as they will HAVE to take item creation one way or another to be able to keep CR's configurable and survivable. 3rd no, to answer your question MOST adventures and paths do not make creating items feasible. characters need months of downtime to make magic items on a regular basis and beyond kingmaker adventure path i don't see it possible in 90+% of most campaigns. some might allow points during the campaign where you might be able to make items but then you run into the problem of characters only upgrading during those times and during other times will be severely unprepared. ex- characters amass wealth till 4th level as they had no time to make items so have no magic weapons-would be completely unfair if they encounter creature they can't hurt.
So literally the only items you have are the items wizards want most - scrolls?
Uhhhhhhhh.
Relying on PCs to craft their own gear certainly gums up the works in higher level games... You need a lot of downtime. In 2nd Darkness, my Druid's Craft skills rapidly became useless as we got to higher levels, ironically when we had the most gold to really get what we wanted. It was rather frustrating...
More than anything the logical errors in it are too big for me to just gloss over as a player.
I can buy a wand of restoration for how much but I cannot find a +2 magical sword for less than half that amount? However I can still sell stuff without a problem -- but this stuff is too valuable for me to buy?
Sorry it just doesn't work on any level for me -- I would need something else to make it convincing.
So, for example, it wouldn't work for you to know there are just very few high level casters, and of those high level casters, there are very few that have taken crafting feats?
Its not that its not possible for those items to be crafted, but just in general, most high level casters that aren't adventurers just don't craft.
As I pointed out above, I'm mainly playing devil's advocate, but I guess, having been on both sides of the screen, if a GM told me that most permanent items aren't for sale, I probably wouldn't think twice about it.
Then again, I'm not the type that wonders how many high level characters exist in the campaign total, and why they aren't fixing problems instead of me.
Also, I've seen a few times people point out that they have a hard time with someone being able to sell an item but not buy one . . . but this happens in the real world all of the time. People sell rare manuscripts, artwork, etc. all of the time, and there are buyers, but as a buyer, you may wait a lifetime for a particular piece of artwork to be for sale.
You completely misunderstand me:
first: It doesn't take high level casters to create most permanent magical items -- +2 long sword? Caster level 6.
Where as a wand of restoration is caster level 7 with an expensive component.
secondly: Wand of restoration is 21,000 gp -- minimum -- considering the expensive component it's actually about 71,000 gp -- and I can buy this in the campaign you suggest -- but a permanent +2 long sword is somehow "Too expensive and rare" to be able to buy -- even though it costs only 8,000 gp in comparision. A wand of fireball is 11,250 gp again more than that +2 long sword (but with a lower caster level) however I can find the wand but not the long sword for sale.
Expendable items get used up -- permanent magical items don't -- which means that items created in the past that are permanent will last while expendable items from the past will get used up. This means as time moves forward there will be more permanent magical items since even if the user falls the item stays around in addition to any magical items being crafted after the point the earlier ones were.
Overall it's not "I won't play in a low magic game" it's "Your reasons and exceptions don't make sense -- explain how a campaign world develops in this way to me."
Master Craftsman doesn't work the way it's supposed to, so everyone else cries into their beer.
It does. You need to read the crafting rules again.
It is possible to ignore almost any requirement for creating an item.
Master Craftsman doesn't work the way it's supposed to
Please elaborate.
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*pulls pin on idea grenade*
So you've got this world where magic items are largely not available for purchase. A few hedge wizards might be able to put together cheap,low level wands, scrolls and potions but won't touch anything expensive or above 3rd level. They seem scared. Very select merchants will purchase but never sell magic items from the party, and items the merchants buy are never resold. These merchants are always heavily guarded and their shops are veritable fortresses. The lack of powerful wondrous items and equipment seems to have public approval. Multiple governments across racial lines agree that magic items are dangerous in the wrong hands and encourage their citizens to report any suspicious cloaks, bracers, helmets, etc. so they may be recovered by trained specialists. All these recovered items vanish, never to be seen again. The combined forces of the civilized nations invade an Orc wasteland to search for WMDs (Wondrous Magical Devices) after a half-orc barbarian wanders into a border village with a +2 greataxe. Where are all the magic items going? Why doesn't the government want you to have them? How come your buddy who learned Craft Staff suddenly packed up and moved away in the middle of the night without even calling his mother? Who is The Man in The Pointy Hat?
You could build an entire campaign around this stuff.
*pulls pin on idea grenade*
So you've got this world where magic items are largely not available for purchase. A few hedge wizards might be able to put together cheap,low level wands, scrolls and potions but won't touch anything expensive or above 3rd level. They seem scared. Very select merchants will purchase but never sell magic items from the party, and items the merchants buy are never resold. These merchants are always heavily guarded and their shops are veritable fortresses. The lack of powerful wondrous items and equipment seems to have public approval. Multiple governments across racial lines agree that magic items are dangerous in the wrong hands and encourage their citizens to report any suspicious cloaks, bracers, helmets, etc. so they may be recovered by trained specialists. All these recovered items vanish, never to be seen again. The combined forces of the civilized nations invade an Orc wasteland to search for WMDs (Wondrous Magical Devices) after a half-orc barbarian wanders into a border village with a +2 greataxe. Where are all the magic items going? Why doesn't the government want you to have them? How come your buddy who learned Craft Staff suddenly packed up and moved away in the middle of the night without even calling his mother? Who is The Man in The Pointy Hat?
You could build an entire campaign around this stuff.
Nice.
Its actually kind of the opposite of an idea I had if I had ever run a 4E game. Since resale prices seemed artificially low in the default setting, I came up with a world wide organization of spellcasters called the Grey Covenant, who have thousands of members and have been working on some mysterious thousand year long research project.
In the process of funding this, they ended up selling magic items to all civilized countries, even those at war, and sort of act as neutral parties to all conflicts, and also serve to be the organization that sets the currency rates across the world.
No one ever touches a Grey Covenant member, as to do so means you are banned from ever buying magic, and probably have quite a few magical assassins on their way to kill you, which the local authorities will do nothing to stop lest they screw with their own accords with the Grey Covenant.
The Grey Covenant would also be the organization that ran all of the funky teleportation circles across the major cities, but wouldn't build any (public) teleporters to warring states due to local treaties.
Sorry, threadjacked my own thread there.
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*pulls pin on idea grenade*
So you've got this world where magic items are largely not available for purchase. A few hedge wizards might be able to put together cheap,low level wands, scrolls and potions but won't touch anything expensive or above 3rd level. They seem scared. Very select merchants will purchase but never sell magic items from the party, and items the merchants buy are never resold. These merchants are always heavily guarded and their shops are veritable fortresses. The lack of powerful wondrous items and equipment seems to have public approval. Multiple governments across racial lines agree that magic items are dangerous in the wrong hands and encourage their citizens to report any suspicious cloaks, bracers, helmets, etc. so they may be recovered by trained specialists. All these recovered items vanish, never to be seen again. The combined forces of the civilized nations invade an Orc wasteland to search for WMDs (Wondrous Magical Devices) after a half-orc barbarian wanders into a border village with a +2 greataxe. Where are all the magic items going? Why doesn't the government want you to have them? How come your buddy who learned Craft Staff suddenly packed up and moved away in the middle of the night without even calling his mother? Who is The Man in The Pointy Hat?
You could build an entire campaign around this stuff.
I like it. To tack on an earlier idea of mine:
The reason that magic is so feared and mistrusted is that several generations back (long enough that not even elves really know all the details), a large council of wizards/sorcerers/etc gathered to attempt some great magical feat. They failed, with apocalyptic results. The world is only now beginning to recover. Vast swaths of land are completely dead magic areas, and much of the rest is a wild magic area. Most who are proven (or even simply accused) of being spellcasters are burned at the stake or otherwise executed. Magical items are also routinely rounded up and destroyed (making most existing magical items at least minor artifacts, since only items of this status are resistant to most methods of destruction). Simple smiths who begin to exceed the mundane (ie, take Master Craftsman and make something beyond masterwork) have their hands cut off.
Master Craftsman doesn't work the way it's supposed toPlease elaborate.I'm not green but I will take a stab at this.
The feat gives you a +2 to your relative craft/profession check and craft magical arms and armor and craft wondrous item. However you still take the penalties for not having the proper spell (I believe EVERY magical item has some spell required) so that ups your DC by 5. You are 15% more likely (minimum) to fail at making an item of than a caster attempting to make it. Plus spell trigger items are out which is where some of the really good build your own items come from (may not apply if you can only make items straight out of the books)
I continue to not understand the "supposed to do" part. I see the penalty problem, we should maybe crunch up the numbers.
I definitively see the trigger items point - I agree on that.
Any market conditions that make it impossible for PCs to buy magic items at any price, no matter how high, will equally make it impossible for PCs to sell magic items at any price, no matter how low.I'm not quite following. If I have the only one of something, and its naturally valuable, someone will buy it. If something does not exist . . . said item is very, very rare and not in existence where I am . . . no matter how much gold I have, I can't buy something that isn't available.
Why is a +1 sling (for instance) unavailable, though? It's certainly not because it's too powerful to sell -- in almost all respects a masterwork longbow is superior.
Are the PCs the only people in the world finding magic items? That seems like an odd campaign assumption.
I sympathize with folks who don't want "magic shops" in their campaign, but that's not the same as saying "you can never buy a magic item, even in a private sale, even if you have something the other party wants much more than the magic item in question". Maybe I'm misunderstanding your suggestion, though.
Why is a +1 sling (for instance) unavailable, though? It's certainly not because it's too powerful to sell -- in almost all respects a masterwork longbow is superior.Are the PCs the only people in the world finding magic items? That seems like an odd campaign assumption.
Eh, its less a suggestion than a topic for discussion.
I get that on a case by case basis, some things don't seem like they should be "rare and powerful," I really do. On the other hand, as a GM I don't want to either say "I'll tell you when something is too rare," or have ten pages of house rules to reinforce something.
Now, I will say that if it looks like its too difficult to put something into place without those conditions, its probably not worth using in a campaign.
*pulls pin on idea grenade*
So you've got this world where magic items are largely not available for purchase. A few hedge wizards might be able to put together cheap,low level wands, scrolls and potions but won't touch anything expensive or above 3rd level. They seem scared. Very select merchants will purchase but never sell magic items from the party, and items the merchants buy are never resold. These merchants are always heavily guarded and their shops are veritable fortresses. The lack of powerful wondrous items and equipment seems to have public approval. Multiple governments across racial lines agree that magic items are dangerous in the wrong hands and encourage their citizens to report any suspicious cloaks, bracers, helmets, etc. so they may be recovered by trained specialists. All these recovered items vanish, never to be seen again. The combined forces of the civilized nations invade an Orc wasteland to search for WMDs (Wondrous Magical Devices) after a half-orc barbarian wanders into a border village with a +2 greataxe. Where are all the magic items going? Why doesn't the government want you to have them? How come your buddy who learned Craft Staff suddenly packed up and moved away in the middle of the night without even calling his mother? Who is The Man in The Pointy Hat?
You could build an entire campaign around this stuff.
Yeah this is what I was asking for -- now I have fluff reasons for why the magical items aren't there instead of simply "rare and expensive" when other available items were even more expensive and supposedly more rare (due to caster level restrains) but still available.
OT:
I want the Ktulhu/KnightErrantJR AP:)
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OT:
I want the Ktulhu/KnightErrantJR AP:)
Well, I am actually thinking of trying to use my spare time while I'm here in Kuwait doing something RPG-ish and semi-productive. Lately I've been leaning towards creating a set of low magic rules. Not really a full setting, but more of a template that could be applied to an existing setting, or a launchpad for ideas for the GM to create his own setting.
I've gotten lots of good ideas for concepts to implement right on these forums. Hell, if I do every get a semi-complete version going, I may look for help from the forums for finding out how to get it nicely formatted and PDF published, since I know many of you out there have experience in these areas.
I removed a post. Please try to treat other posters with respect. (A reply to this post was also removed.)
I get that on a case by case basis, some things don't seem like they should be "rare and powerful," I really do. On the other hand, as a GM I don't want to either say "I'll tell you when something is too rare," or have ten pages of house rules to reinforce something.
I think the idea of having magic items be rare and powerful is great. But what bothers me is the idea that rare and powerful items can't be sold, even for all the money in the world. That just doesn't jibe with my view of the world. If Bill Gates really had his heart set on buying a rocket launcher or an original Picasso, I bet he could get one. That doesn't mean that there's a Picasso store or a rocket launcher store, of course.
My idea of buying a magic item (other than maybe +1 weapons and armor) is that it's like buying a unique work of art -- you have to track down whoever owns it and make them an offer. They might accept or they might not. But if you have enough time and money, it shouldn't be impossible (IMO).