I'm done with my build for the most part. Are we rolling our hit points or just taking average dice on that?
Never noticed but I just realized you can't take multiple toughness feats...augh the feat options for a summoner in core stink >_>
Well I'm building it to be a tough rider, I won't be bothering with to many summon monster spells or spells that allow saving throws...
Archery is under the assumption you cant make a forbidable fighter from your summoner.
Summoner can use his Eidolons evolution points as he advances.
Take a human summoner. Hes armed with a long spear. 10ft reach. Casts enlarge person (15ft) reach. Takes the reach evolution (20ft) and strength increment, with combat reflexes and a 15ft reach Eilodon, a charging fighter gets A.o.Op city on his charge with his lower ac and gets one attack. Then your Eilodon gets many attacks of which can push his opponent back 5ft each time (with reach). Then the fighter cant 5 ft step anymore as hes 15ft away. Its another charge. More Att.o.Ops then his one attack. Then again the summoner and Eilodon opens up their round with a ton more attacks. Its just too much for any medium creature to endure.
Who says a Fighter is going to be dumb enough to merely charge? He can have a buddy *bamf* him immediately adjacent to summoner+eidolon (or, depending, *bamf* himself immediately adjacent, depending upon precise gear allowance). Sunder the spear on worst attack just to be a dork. Sink the rest into the Summoner, send both of them packing. Being enlarged does dip the summoner's AC a bit, and a Fighter on parity with a Summoner is very likely to punch right through the Summoner's much lower AC without breaking much of a sweat.
Fighter guy could also be super stealthy as well via the various shadow armor enhancements - and unless the Combat Eidolon actually has evolution points invested in some kind of senses, the Eidolon won't be any more alert than the Summoner - and reasonable competence. Terrain dependency is often overlooked - and it remains a valid tactic. A ring of invisibility to go with it and the Fighter merely waits for you to be close enough for a 5' step and commences to blenderize.
Who says a Fighter is going to be dumb enough to merely charge? He can have a buddy *bamf* him immediately adjacent to summoner+eidolon (or, depending, *bamf* himself immediately adjacent, depending upon precise gear allowance)
He's alone, so he'd better have blown his money on that incredibly cheesy and unreliable *bamf*/day item himself. It pretty much discredits the class every time it MUST resort to buying items that mimic the abilities of another class. Even healing wands shouldn't be necessary to claim one class can beat another 1 on 1.
. Sunder the spear on worst attack just to be a dork. Sink the rest into the Summoner, send both of them packing. Being enlarged does dip the summoner's AC a bit, and a Fighter on parity with a Summoner is very likely to punch right through the Summoner's much lower AC without breaking much of a sweat.
While I think it's silly to make the summoner do any kind of actual attacking, I've got my summoner up to 50 AC, and you'll have to plow through both summoner and eidolons HP to kill either with damage.
Fighter guy could also be super stealthy as well via the various shadow armor enhancements - and unless the Combat Eidolon actually has evolution points invested in some kind of senses, the Eidolon won't be any more alert than the Summoner - and reasonable competence.
Hide all you want. If you can't manage to stay hidden after an attack, you're toast and it's going to take a pretty long time to do the job if you can. 1 Transmogrify spell and the Eidolon can give up some of it's 450 damage per round to find creepy stalkers easily.
Terrain dependency is often overlooked - and it remains a valid tactic. A ring of invisibility to go with it and the Fighter merely waits for you to be close enough for a 5' step and commences to blenderize.
The summoner has the true sight spell, and activating that ring is a standard action, so it's pretty much a waste of time.
He's alone, so he'd better have blown his money on that incredibly cheesy and unreliable *bamf*/day item himself. It pretty much discredits the class every time it MUST resort to buying items that mimic the abilities of another class. Even healing wands shouldn't be necessary to claim one class can beat another 1 on 1.
Who says a Fighter is going to be dumb enough to merely charge? He can have a buddy *bamf* him immediately adjacent to summoner+eidolon (or, depending, *bamf* himself immediately adjacent, depending upon precise gear allowance)
All magic items imitate spells to some extent.
In other news I have both builds done. I expect for the archer to prevail(in the open area), but I am quiet unsure about the melee guy.
A fighter is probably not going to attempt 2:1 odds against himself without support. If he is, then said fighter is absolutely going to do what can be done to get a few goodies to provide at least some of the missing elements that are ordinarily available from his buddies.
Missing elements - in this case - do not preclude certain items or skill choices. The ring is not generally going to be activated at the beginning of a fight. It will already be active.
If the comaprison must stand as "fighter vs. Summoner w/ pet", the only fair one I can envision is said fighter having an intelligent magic item able to act of its own accord on behalf of the fighter. Item *bamfs* fighter into position, fighter starts full-round attack.
Without more specific circumstances and stats, this is all theoretical anyway.
Without more specific circumstances and stats, this is all theoretical anyway.Worse the premise is flawed.
It's not even a summoner & eidolon make a better contribution to a 'typical' party than a fighter would.
Nor is it 'a fighter with this party would out fight a summoner& eidolon with the same party'.
It's not even against this battery of monsters a fighter is better solo against them rather than a summoner/eidolon.
Rather its a contrived arena, which imho is fairly silly.
That said I do love seeing people's builds so I look forward to seeing them, and hope that neither is contrived for this setting. I'd even go so far as to say that it would be interesting to take these builds after the open arena 1-1 to other settings whether with others, head to head again, or against given fixed opponents (to compare how they would fare against opponents rather than each other).
-James
Myself and the other competitor both know arena builds don't equal a good adventuring build. It is just fun for me. I need to check to see if he responded with a complete build though. Stay tuned to this channel.
I'm done with my build for the most part. Are we rolling our hit points or just taking average dice on that?
I assumed we were going with the average, not even max at first level. If a .5 is at the end then round up.
d10=5.5d8=4.5
Hailing from your favorite fantasy setting, whatever it may be, the rescuer of damsels in distress, Roger the Ranged Fighter
Male Human Fighter 20 (archer varient)
Alignment: N
Str: 24 (+7) [5 points, +6 enhance., +4 inherent]
Dex: 32 (+11) [5 points, +2 race, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance.]
Con: 20 (+5) [5 points, +2 enhance., +4 inherent]
Int: 11 (+0) [1 points]
Wis: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Cha: 9 (-1) [-1 points]
Class and Racial abilities:
Hawkeye (Ex): At 2nd level, an archer gains a +1 bonus on Perception checks, and the range increment for any
bow he uses increases by 5 feet. These bonuses increase by +1 and 5 additional feet for every 4 levels beyond 2nd. This
ability replaces bravery. (+6 to perception, +30 to range)
Trick Shot (Ex): At 3rd level, an archer can choose one of the following combat maneuvers or actions: disarm, feint, or sunder. He can perform this action with a bow against any target within 30 feet, with a –4 penalty to his CMB. Every four levels beyond 3rd, he may choose an additional trick shot to learn. These maneuvers use up arrows as normal (CMB 25= 20 BAB + 7 Strength bonus +2 weapon focus feats, -4 )
Expert Archer (Ex): At 5th level, an archer gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with bows. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Safe Shot (Ex): At 9th level, an archer does not provoke attacks of opportunity when making ranged attacks with a bow. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Evasive Archer (Ex): At 13th level, an archer gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC against ranged attacks. This bonus increases to +4 at 17th level. This ability replaces weapon training 3.
Volley (Ex): At 17th level, as a full-round action, an archer can make a single bow attack at his highest base attack bonus against any number of creatures in a 15-foot radius burst, making separate attack and damage rolls for each creature. This ability replaces weapon training 4.
Ranged Defense (Ex): At 19th level, an archer gains DR 5/— against ranged attacks. In addition, as an immediate action, he can catch an arrow fired at him and shoot it any target he chooses, as if he had the Snatch Arrows feat. This ability replaces armor mastery.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): An archer must choose a type of bow.
Hit Dice: 20d10+120
Hit Points: 230
AC: 32(36 vs ranged attacks) (+14 Armor, +7 Dexterity, +1 haste) [Touch 18(22 vs ranged attacks), Flat-footed 25]
Init: +17 (+11 Dex, +4 Feat, +1 Competence, +1 Luck)
Speed: 60ft
Saves:
Fortitude +24 [+12 base, +5 Con, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Reflex +24 [+6 base, +11 Dex, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Will +20 [+6 base, +5 Wis, +2 Feat, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck], 1/day re-roll failed save
BAB: +20
Ranged Atk: +38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23 (1d8+2d6+34 / x4; average 44.5) range 140 feet
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +12 Dex, +2 Greater Weapon Focus, +5 Expert Archer, +5 Enhancement, +2 Competence, +1 haste, -2 Rapid Fire, -6 Deadly Aim)
(Damage Breakdown: 4.5 average of 1d8, +7 average damage of 2d6, +7 Strength, +5 Expert Archer , +5 Enhancement, +4 Greater Weapon Specialization, +12 Deadly Aim, +1 Competence)
Melee Atk: +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 (1d6+12 / 18-20)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +12 Dex, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +1 haste)
(Damage Breakdown: 7 Strength, +5 Enhancement, )
CMB: +25
CMD: 48 (cannot be grappled, cannot be disarmed while wielding a longbow, 53 vs sunder while wielding a longbow, 52 vs disarm and sunder while wielding a light blade)
Skills:
Acrobatics +32 (20 ranks, +11 Dex, +1 Competence)
Perception +36 (20 ranks, +5 Wis, +5 Competence, +6 class)
Feats:
Weapon Focus: Longbow (Human bonus)
Weapon Specialization: Longbow (Fighter bonus)
Iron Will (1 HD)
Point Blank Shot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Initiative (3 HD)
Precise Shot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Iron Will (5 HD)
Deadly Aim (Fighter bonus)
Far Shot (7 HD)
Rapid Shot (Fighter bonus)
Critical Focus (9 HD)
Manyshot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Precise Shot (11 HD)
Penetrating Strike (Fighter bonus)
Staggering Critical (13 HD)
Greater Weapon Focus: Longbow (Fighter bonus)
Blinding Critical (15 HD)
Greater Penetrating Strike (Fighter bonus)
Stunning Critical (17 HD)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Longbow (Fighter bonus)
Weapon Finesse (19 HD)
Quick Draw (Fighter bonus)
Equipment:
+5 mithral full plate 35,500
2 +5 composite longbows (mighty +7)
+5 scimitar
ring of freedom of movement
Ring of Counterspells(maze) 4000+960(for the spell itself)=5960
manual of quickness in action +5 (already applied)
manual of gainful exercise +4 (already applied)
manual of bodily health +4 (already applied)
belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity)
headband of inspired wisdom +6
boots of speed
Dust of Disappearance 3500
Dust of Appearance 1500
greater bracers of archery
cloak of resistance +5
eyes of the eagle
pale green prism ioun stone
pink rhomboid ioun stone
luckstone
20 +1 holy arrows
20 +1 axiomatic arrows
20 +1 anarchic arrows
20 +1 unholy arrows
40 arrows
potion of fly 3 2250
Elixir of Vision 250
Money:
880,000g WBL
-
51,100
51,100
50,325
40,000
137,500
110,000
110,000
90,000
36,000
12,000
25,000
25,000
2,500
30,000
8,000
20,000
7,321
7,321
7,321
7,321
2
=
8578gp remaining
Contestant number 2 from Team Fighter specializes in slicing and dicing
Human Fighter (Two-Weapon Warrior Variant)
Alignment Neutral
Two Weapon Tim has been separated from his party somehow when the evil summoner appears, and tries to kill him. Who will prevail the good, but neutrally aligned Two Weapon Tim, rescuer of princesses and smiter of fiends, or some random summoner dude.
Str: 32 (+11) [5 points, +2 race, +1 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance.]
Dex: 24 (+7) [[5 points, +6 enhance, +4 inherent ]
Con: 20 (+5) [5 points, +2 enhance., +4 inherent]
Int: 11 (+0) [1 points]
Wis: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Cha: 9 (-1) [-1 points]
Class and Racial abilities:
Defensive Flurry (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks until the beginning of his next turn. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 3rd. This ability replaces armor training 1 and 2.
Twin Blades (Ex): At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Improved Balance (Ex): At 11th level, the attack penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a twoweapon warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light weapon with the normal light weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Equal Opportunity (Ex): At 13th level, when a two-weapon warrior makes an attack of opportunity, he may attack once with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 3.
Perfect Balance (Ex): At 15th level, the penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1 for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand, treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 4.
Deft Doublestrike (Ex): At 17th level, when a two-weapon warrior hits an opponent with both weapons, he can make a disarm or sunder attempt or trip, if one or both weapons can be used to trip) against that opponent as an immediate action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces weapon training 4.
Deadly Defense (Ex): At 19th level, when a twoweapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, every creature that hits him with a melee attack before the beginning of his next turn provokes an attack of opportunity from the warrior. This ability replaces armor mastery.
Hit Dice: 20d10+120
Hit Points: 230
AC: 32 (+14 Armor, +3 Dexterity, +1 haste) [Touch 18(22 vs ranged attacks), Flat-footed 25]
AC is 37 after a full round attack. Touch=23
Init: +13 (+7 Dex, +4 Feat, +1 Competence, +1 Luck)
Speed: 60ft
Saves:
Fortitude +24 [+12 base, +5 Con, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Reflex +20 [+6 base, +7 Dex, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Will +20 [+6 base, +5 Wis, +2 Feat, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck], 1/day re-roll failed save
BAB: +20
Melee Atk:
Main Hand +43/+43/+38/+33/+28 (1d6+25 / 18-20 x3)
Offhand +43/+38/+33 (1d6+25 / 18-20 x3)
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +11 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +1 haste, +4(Twin Blades), Perfect Balance +1, Weapon Focus, +1 Greater Weapon Focus, Balance (-1 TWF Penalty)
(Damage Breakdown: 11 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +4(Twin Blades), +2 Weapon Spec, +2 Greater Weapon Spec, Two Weapon Rend allows for 1d10+16 addition damage if a primary and off hand attack hit)
Ranged Atk: +26/+26/+26/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+39/ x3; average 44.5)
range 110 feet
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +7 Dex, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +1 haste, -2 Rapid Fire, -6 Deadly Aim)
(Damage Breakdown: 4.5 average of 1d8, 11 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +12 Deadly Aim, +1 Competence)
CMB: +31 (BAB 20+Strength 11)
CMD: 48 (cannot be grappled, cannot be disarmed while wielding a scimitar, 53 vs sunder while wielding a scimitar)
Skills:
Acrobatics +25 (20 ranks, +7 Dex, +1 Competence, -3(Armor check penalty))
Perception +30 (20 ranks, +5 Wis, +5 Competence,)
Feats:
Weapon Focus: Scimitar (scimitar)
Weapon Specialization: scimitar (Fighter bonus)
Iron Will (1 HD)
Point Blank Shot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Initiative (3 HD)
Precise Shot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Iron Will (5 HD)
Deadly Aim (Fighter bonus)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting (7 HD)
Rapid Shot (Fighter bonus)
Critical Focus (9 HD)
Manyshot (Fighter bonus)
Double Slice (11 HD)
Improved Critical (Scimitar) (Fighter bonus)
Two-Weapon Rend (13 HD)
Greater Weapon Focus: Scimitar (Fighter bonus)
Improved Precise Shot (15 HD)
Penetrating Strike (Fighter bonus)
Lunge (17 HD)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Scimitar (Fighter bonus)
Staggering Critical (19 HD)
Quick Draw (Fighter bonus)
Equipment: 880,000g WBL
+5 mithral full plate 35,500
+5 composite longbows (mighty +11) 51500
2 +5 scimitars 50315 x 2= 100630
ring of freedom of movement(ring slot 1) 40,000
Ring of Counterspells(maze) 4000+960(for the spell itself)=5960
manual of quickness in action +5 (already applied) 137,500
manual of gainful exercise +4 (already applied) 110,000
manual of bodily health +4 (already applied) 110,000
belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity) 45,000
headband of inspired wisdom +6 36000
boots of speed 12000
Dust of Disappearance 3500
Dust of Appearance 1500
greater bracers of archery 25000
cloak of resistance +5 25000
eyes of the eagle 2500
pale green prism ioun stone 30,000
pink rhomboid ioun stone 8000
luckstone 20,000
20 +1 axiomatic arrows 7,321
20 +1 anarchic arrows 7,321
20 +1 Unholy arrows 7,321
40 arrows 2 gp
Handy Haversack 2000
potion of fly x 3= 2250
Elixir of Vision 250
Potion of Enlarge Person 250 x 3 = 750
potion of cure light x2 100
potion of cure moderate x2 600
Gold 27495
Body Slots taken up
Belt: belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity)
Eyes:eyes of the eagle
Feet: boots of speed
Headband:headband of inspired wisdom +6
Ring 1: ring of freedom of movement
Ring2: Ring of Counterspells(maze) 4000+960(for the spell itself)=5960
Shoulders: Cloak of Displacement, Major
Wrist: greater bracers of archery
I think all rules disputes should be handled on this thread if any come up, assuming we can't get a neutral referee.
A fighter is probably not going to attempt 2:1 odds against himself without support.
So you agree the fighter class cannot overpower the summoner class.
If he is, then said fighter is absolutely going to do what can be done to get a few goodies to provide at least some of the missing elements that are ordinarily available from his buddies.Well of course he is, and as always he is at the mercy of the DM and the magic available to him, but at some point the advantages from certain magic items (like a 1/day time stop) don't really prove the class' worth, just that it can't accomplish the task without it, which is fine by me really.
Missing elements - in this case - do not preclude certain items or skill choices. The ring is not generally going to be activated at the beginning of a fight. It will already be active.
That, like so many other advantages that hinge on items, works both ways.
If the comaprison must stand as "fighter vs. Summoner w/ pet", the only fair one I can envision is said fighter having an intelligent magic item able to act of its own accord on behalf of the fighter. Item *bamfs* fighter into position, fighter starts full-round attack.
Again, you've stated you don't think the fighter can pull this off alone. In addition, the fighter needs to kill the summoner outright in a single turn, which I don't think will be that easy.
Without more specific circumstances and stats, this is all theoretical anyway.
Good show.
Who will prevail, old school or new school? This battle coming soon on a webpage near you.
Wait, who's our DM?
Who will prevail, old school or new school? This battle coming soon on a webpage near you.Wait, who's our DM?
We don't have one yet. I will try to recruit someone. I am about to leave the house though. The battle will start late tonight or tomorrow night. I guess we can have more than one GM in case one of them can't make it. Once we start the battle will run like a play by post so both of us don't to be online at the same time. As for you or someone can check my builds for any math or rules errors.
We don't have one yet. I will try to recruit someone. I am about to leave the house though. The battle will start late tonight or tomorrow night. I guess we can have more than one GM in case one of them can't make it. Once we start the battle will run like a play by post so both of us don't to be online at the same time. As for you or someone can check my builds for any math or rules errors.Who will prevail, old school or new school? This battle coming soon on a webpage near you.Wait, who's our DM?
Ciretose has agreed to be the DM.
Alrighty then I'll have my build posted soon. Gotta gather it up in the right format...been busy is all. Don't worry I haven't peeked.
Hey wraith, I made a few more basic items, just basic stuff for different slots, lemme know if you want the info on them.
Hailing from your favorite fantasy setting, whatever it may be, the rescuer of damsels in distress, Roger the Ranged Fighter
** spoiler omitted **...
There are some errors for this character:
- The CMB for Trick Shot is calculated incorrectly. As Trick Shot is explicitly used with a weapon, any and all weapon-based attack bonuses apply to the CMB check for it. You partially included this with +2 for Weapon Focus, but did not include +5 for the magic weapon, +4 for Expert Archer, or +2 for the bracers of archery. His CMB with Trick Shot is thus +36.
- Expert Archer is a +4 bonus to attack and damage, not a +5 bonus.
- You list his melee attack bonus as +39 with a +12 bonus from Dex, but he is using a scimitar, which is not finessable.
- His base CMB is 27, not 25.
- You didn't update his skills to use Stealth instead of Acrobatics ;)
Hey wraith, I made a few more basic items, just basic stuff for different slots, lemme know if you want the info on them.
As long as they only affect skills it does not matter. Anything else I would like to see though.
Hailing from your favorite fantasy setting, whatever it may be, the rescuer of damsels in distress, Roger the Ranged Fighter
** spoiler omitted **...
There are some errors for this character:
- The CMB for Trick Shot is calculated incorrectly. As Trick Shot is explicitly used with a weapon, any and all weapon-based attack bonuses apply to the CMB check for it. You partially included this with +2 for Weapon Focus, but did not include +5 for the magic weapon, +4 for Expert Archer, or +2 for the bracers of archery. His CMB with Trick Shot is thus +36.
- Expert Archer is a +4 bonus to attack and damage, not a +5 bonus.
- You list his melee attack bonus as +39 with a +12 bonus from Dex, but he is using a scimitar, which is not finessable.
- His base CMB is 27, not 25.
- You didn't update his skills to use Stealth instead of Acrobatics ;)
Thanks. I forgot about that when I switched from the rapier to the scimitar. I will probably just go back to the rapier.
They are ability/ac bonus items. Robe of dodge, vest of con, mask of strength, gloves of dex.
They are ability/ac bonus items. Robe of dodge, vest of con, mask of strength, gloves of dex.
Just multiply the cost by 1.5 for being in a nonstandard spot.
They are ability/ac bonus items. Robe of dodge, vest of con, mask of strength, gloves of dex.Just multiply the cost by 1.5 for being in a nonstandard spot.
Ouch, I never saw that...that's harsh...
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o_O Will you two valiantly die for our entertainment (and possible SCIENCE!) already, we're running out of popcorn!
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.....o_O Will you two valiantly die for our entertainment (and possible SCIENCE!) already, we're running out of popcorn!
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I already said I won't be completely free to battle it out until Wednesday, I have other things that demand my attention, so the finishing touches on my character are taking longer. I'm still looking through the book for the reason non standard items cost 50% more...it's making it alot harder since I can't use the same slot twice.
Not sure why you are choosing mithril full plate over say celestial chainmail, especially if you can possibly further enchant it (say with a magic vestment spell). Having a way to fly as a standard action rather than a move and standard only seems reasonable.
Because he used FighterMan as a base, and I didn't optimize FighterMan for physical defense, since Balors (FM's opponent) don't have terrific physical offense. A greater magic vestment-ed celestial chainmail is a better, and cheaper, armor than +5 mithral fullplate assuming you can convince your cleric to cast it on you every day.
Not a 100% used to PF rules (especially not at higher levels) what is penetrating strike doing for you when you are using +5 weapons?
It allows him to penetrate DR/bludgeoning and DR/slashing, and is a pre-req for Greater Penetrating Strike, which partially penetrates DR/-.
Your AC seems awfully low for a 20th level fighter, let alone an archer. You might wish to increase this.
The best defense is a good offense and going first in battle. He could wear a ring of deflection or an amulet of natural armor, but he'd have to sacrifice offense and/or initiative to do so.
Why have blinding critical if you don't have critical mastery?
Because he used FighterMan as a base, and FighterMan was poorly-built with regard to the critical feats.
Could someone tell me where in the core rules they address this "non standard slot" item cost increase, it's killin' me.
I already said I won't be completely free to battle it out until Wednesday, I have other things that demand my attention, so the finishing touches on my character are taking longer. I'm still looking through the book for the reason non standard items cost 50% more...it's making it alot harder since I can't use the same slot twice..
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.....o_O Will you two valiantly die for our entertainment (and possible SCIENCE!) already, we're running out of popcorn!
::
I was mistaken. That 3.5 rule did not carry over. You can have the items in their new slot for the normal price.
I will go back and make changes. Trying to be lazy did not work as well as I would have hoped.
I was mistaken. That 3.5 rule did not carry over. You can have the items in their new slot for the normal price.
Honestly, I'd just say "no" to them in general. Removing gauntlets of dexterity was an intentional design change in Pathfinder. FighterMan pays for a +6/+6 belt; SummonerPerson should have to as well, if s/he wants to increase two physical/mental stats.
Honestly, I'd just say "no" to them in general. Removing gauntlets of dexterity was an intentional design change in Pathfinder. FighterMan pays for a +6/+6 belt; SummonerPerson should have to as well, if s/he wants to increase two physical/mental stats.
I was mistaken. That 3.5 rule did not carry over. You can have the items in their new slot for the normal price.
Fighterman doesn't have to either, meaning he can make a much more well equipped character.
Fighterman doesn't have to either, meaning he can make a much more well equipped character.Honestly, I'd just say "no" to them in general. Removing gauntlets of dexterity was an intentional design change in Pathfinder. FighterMan pays for a +6/+6 belt; SummonerPerson should have to as well, if s/he wants to increase two physical/mental stats.
I was mistaken. That 3.5 rule did not carry over. You can have the items in their new slot for the normal price.
Plus, wasn't the rule "Pathfinder Core"? Please show me where gauntlets of dexterity are in the Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, or the APG.
Not that I get a vote on this, of course, but you're cheesing the match already IMO.
At any rate, I THINK I'm ready to post my build. I just wanna make sure Wraith is OK with the recent development in items available to our characters. And Wraith, there's no rush.
I am gonna point out that 1: the ability to make items for different slots looks to be gone, so I agree with zurai its not legal by RAW it seems. And 2 making an item slotless is legal, it just costs x2
Pathfinder choose to remove that mention and make items tied to slots. I am gonna have to say it is seems clear intent you can't change slots.
We agreed with item creation rules. Show me ONE item with a competence bonus to ride skill. The rules are there for a reason, because the pre-generated items don't encompass very much when they miss something that basic. There's no place in the CORE book that LIMITS where items give what bonuses. In addition, the items that give multiple bonuses are a guideline, mainly so that you can use 1 slot for multiple bonuses once you've filled all 15.
We agreed with item creation rules. Show me ONE item with a competence bonus to ride skill. The rules are there for a reason, because the pre-generated items don't encompass very much when they miss something that basic. There's no place in the CORE book that LIMITS where items give what bonuses. In addition, the items that give multiple bonuses are a guideline, mainly so that you can use 1 slot for multiple bonuses once you've filled all 15.
If this is just for fun, which it is for me, otherwise I would honestly be saying no, take the items take the items in the new slot, but if this was to prove a point there will always be an asterisk by your victory*. In any even after I correct my archer's errors I will meet you on the field of battle.
*advice from a friendly competitor and board member. :)
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I am gonna point out that 1: the ability to make items for different slots looks to be gone, so I agree with zurai its not legal by RAW it seems. And 2 making an item slotless is legal, it just costs x2
Pathfinder choose to remove that mention and make items tied to slots. I am gonna have to say it is seems clear intent you can't change slots.
I would have to agree with seeker. I think this is why they consolidated the Dex,Str,Con belts and the Wis,Cha,Int headbands.
We agreed with item creation rules. Show me ONE item with a competence bonus to ride skill. The rules are there for a reason, because the pre-generated items don't encompass very much when they miss something that basic. There's no place in the CORE book that LIMITS where items give what bonuses. In addition, the items that give multiple bonuses are a guideline, mainly so that you can use 1 slot for multiple bonuses once you've filled all 15.
I think you should use the book items for a fair fight.
We agreed with item creation rules. Show me ONE item with a competence bonus to ride skill. The rules are there for a reason, because the pre-generated items don't encompass very much when they miss something that basic. There's no place in the CORE book that LIMITS where items give what bonuses. In addition, the items that give multiple bonuses are a guideline, mainly so that you can use 1 slot for multiple bonuses once you've filled all 15.If this is just for fun, which it is for me, otherwise I would honestly be saying no, take the items take the items in the new slot, but if this was to prove a point there will always be an asterisk by your victory*. In any even after I correct my archer's errors I will meet you on the field of battle.
*advice from a friendly competitor and board member. :)
We agreed with item creation rules. Show me ONE item with a competence bonus to ride skill. The rules are there for a reason, because the pre-generated items don't encompass very much when they miss something that basic. There's no place in the CORE book that LIMITS where items give what bonuses. In addition, the items that give multiple bonuses are a guideline, mainly so that you can use 1 slot for multiple bonuses once you've filled all 15.If this is just for fun, which it is for me, otherwise I would honestly be saying no, take the items take the items in the new slot, but if this was to prove a point there will always be an asterisk by your victory*. In any even after I correct my archer's errors I will meet you on the field of battle.
*advice from a friendly competitor and board member. :)
First of all, thank you wraith for keeping this friendly enough to remind me not to get to deeply invested in it.
Secondly, all the people here who say it would be unfair if item creation rules are used, I still don't see why the fighter getting the same benefits makes it unfair. The summoner is limited to the exact same limit to number of items. I mean the only REMOTELY useful item STACKING a summoner could do is two Constitution items, and I never planned to because the Eidolon only has 15 HD, so investing in con on that side is to big drop in effectiveness to invest in. If anything the summoner is at a disadvantage because I have to buy TWICE the dex/ac items to make sure they both have good initiatives/AC, not to mention saves (which I've had to take a hit on as well).
Lastly, I'm still trying to find that competence bonus to Ride skill item...maybe there's one in the APG...I would LIKE to adhere to the whims of the masses so everyone will stop whining about it, but I have to find that item first.
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We agreed with item creation rules. Show me ONE item with a competence bonus to ride skill. The rules are there for a reason, because the pre-generated items don't encompass very much when they miss something that basic. There's no place in the CORE book that LIMITS where items give what bonuses. In addition, the items that give multiple bonuses are a guideline, mainly so that you can use 1 slot for multiple bonuses once you've filled all 15.
friendly Mad Alchemist to the rescue. "Jousting" Armor enhancment in the APG pg 283 costs 3750 gp and gives a +5 comp to ride. Turqoise Sphere Ioun stone in seeker of secrets (6000 Gp) gives +5 comp to ride and mount gets the fleet feat. If you add it to a Wayfinder you also gain a +2 comp Handle Animal. You can look at Nethys's archives for the stats other than the resonance power (+2 HA).
That's a big difference between +5 Comp (which doesn't stack( and the +20 item creation rules can make, but good job on finding the items.
Edit: I can't use a "Jousting" enhancement on my armor because it's not on a pre-generated item in the book.
The issue is man, that you can't point to your test for anything when you do not stick to RAW.
Custom items are not in the book, so using them totally invalidates your "test" it totally changes the playing field and the results. It's less of an issue if you say make a belt and make it slotless paying the x2 cost, but when you craft something that is not in the rules then you just invalidated any result you have.
When your testing out how things work by RAW and how things compare, you simply can't start making items not in the book. As that items is not in the game and the more you change from RAW the bigger you change the possible outcome.
So by the book you can make an item slotless for x2 but when you start making up magic items your no longer testing RAW at all. Custom magic items are fine for a home game, but totally invalidates your "test" when using just RAW classes, items and feats. You might as well make up new spells and feats and archetypes to use in your test as it is the very same thing.
but then I have no dog in this fight and am not sure what sources you guys have oked, just point out some things is all.
The issue is man, that you can't point to your test for anything when you do not stick to RAW.
Custom items are not in the book, so using them totally invalidates your "test" it totally changes the playing field and the results. It's less of an issue if you say make a belt and make it slotless paying the x2 cost, but when you craft something that is not in the rules then you just invalidated any result you have.
Actually, taking an item and making slotless is using the SAME item creation rules as making any other item with the item creation rules, as there is no 'slotless belt of strength +6' in the book either. That's a double standard. There are NO restrictions on what item slot can give what kind of bonus, at all, in RAW.
When your testing out how things work by RAW and how things compare, you simply can't start making items not in the book. As that items is not in the game and the more you change from RAW the bigger you change the possible outcome.
So by the book you can make an item slotless for x2 but when you start making up magic items your no longer testing RAW at all. Custom magic items are fine for a home game, but totally invalidates your "test" when using just RAW classes, items and feats. You might as well make up new spells and feats and archetypes to use in your test as it is the very same thing.
Again, you have to use item creation to make anything slotless, and you're picking and choosing what rules you think are appropriate, which isn't RAW at all.
but then I have no dog in this fight and am not sure what sources you guys have oked, just point out some things is all.
We've OK'd PFRPG Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and the APG.
I can't think of why everyone would be going bananas against item creation NOW, after all the fighter defense posts using it abusively, and all I want to do is make BASIC items with the rules. There's not a single dodge bonus item in the book either...
I take it there's no such thing as item creation whatsoever in organized play? That would explain why everyone thinks proper testing, fairness, and the point of this exercise is to abandon a part of RAW that is used in countless games played all over the world, and the simplest part of it at that. Otherwise I don't get really it.
This is seriously sucking the fun out of it. I'm going to see what I can do without item creation rules at all.