PFS does not have item creation at all. But as for making an item slotless vs making a whole new item they are not even the same league.
With a slotless item you are still using RAW items, but now must pay double for it. Stight forward ,easy and everyone has access to the item.
Making a custom item always puts you at an advantage as you can do things that is not in the book. Magic item creation is RAW yes, but it requires your GM allowing it and working with you to make an item. No magic item you craft outside of the book is RAW, it is pure homebrew.
Once you start doing that your test is kinda pointless as your not using items, your making items, you have access to things no one else has. You have already stacked the deck and are no longer RAW.
There is no difference between using custom magic items you made up and custom feat, spells, PRC's, edilion evolutions and archetypes you also made up.
PFS does not have item creation at all. But as for making an item slotless vs making a whole new item they are not even the same league.
With a slotless item you are still using RAW items, but now must pay double for it. Stight forward ,easy and everyone has access to the item.
Making a custom item always puts you at an advantage as you can do things that is not in the book. Magic item creation is RAW yes, but it requires your GM allowing it and working with you to make an item. No magic item you craft outside of the book is RAW, it is pure homebrew.
Once you start doing that your test is kinda pointless as your not using items, your making items, you have access to things no one else has. You have already stacked the deck and are no longer RAW.
There is no difference between using custom magic items you made up and custom feat, spells, PRC's, edilion evolutions and archetypes you also made up.
There's no rules for making a custom feat. There are rules, in the book(RAW), for making magic items, so yes, it's very different. By your logic of making it ok to change an items slot requirement, you could go further to add class/alignment/skill requires to reduce it's cost, which we can do if Wraith wants.
At this point I think you're just trolling me, because your logic makes no sense at all, since you can't have a slotless -version- of an item without using a magic item creation rule. I'll go ahead and finish my character with basic item creation like Wraith said, and this little skirmish will simply not be for those with your flawed disposition.
PFS does not have item creation at all. But as for making an item slotless vs making a whole new item they are not even the same league.
With a slotless item you are still using RAW items, but now must pay double for it. Stight forward ,easy and everyone has access to the item.
Making a custom item always puts you at an advantage as you can do things that is not in the book. Magic item creation is RAW yes, but it requires your GM allowing it and working with you to make an item. No magic item you craft outside of the book is RAW, it is pure homebrew.
Once you start doing that your test is kinda pointless as your not using items, your making items, you have access to things no one else has. You have already stacked the deck and are no longer RAW.
There is no difference between using custom magic items you made up and custom feat, spells, PRC's, edilion evolutions and archetypes you also made up.
There's no rules for making a custom feat. There are rules, in the book(RAW), for making magic items, so yes, it's very different. By your logic of making it ok to change an items slot requirement, you could go further to add class/alignment/skill requires to reduce it's cost, which we can do if Wraith wants.
At this point I think you're just trolling me, because your logic makes no sense at all, since you can't have a slotless -version- of an item without using a magic item creation rule. I'll go ahead and finish my character with basic item creation like Wraith said, and this little skirmish will simply not be for those with your flawed disposition.
I should be ready in about 10 minutes. I am just checking my math right now.
[
There's no rules for making a custom feat. There are rules, in the book(RAW), for making magic items, so yes, it's very different. By your logic of making it ok to change an items slot requirement, you could go further to add class/alignment/skill requires to reduce it's cost, which we can do if Wraith wants.
At this point I think you're just trolling me, because your logic makes no sense at all, since you can't have a slotless -version- of an item without using a magic item creation rule. I'll go ahead and finish my character with basic item creation like Wraith said, and this little skirmish will simply not be for those with your flawed disposition.
Those rules you point out are guidelines for a GM to craft item for his game, they are guess work as much as anything and two different people could make the same item with different results all in how the GM rules it.
It simply is not the same thing as a slotless item. which is the very same item in the book, at twice the cost.
I guess you call anyone a troll who disagrees with you. I only pointed out what you wanted to do was not a RAW item. You can say it is all day, that does not make it so.
I pointed something out you didn't like and you got defensive and petty about it.
Two Weapon Tim 2.0 has been posted. Waiting on the summoner dude. :)
Am I wrong or at 7th level couldn't you have a flying Eidolon have 3 sets of arms and weapon training. Take Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Rapid Reload and be shooting 6 Heavy Crossbow Bolts a round? Using the Serpantine build his Dex would be 20 so he would have like a +8 to hit without any magic items...
That doesn't even count what the summoner would be doing during the battle...you could make him a ranged fighter type as well and be plugging away with a total of 8 arrows a round each doing d10+ or have him just buff the crap out of the Eidolon...
I could not tell you without knowing what evolutions you are using, and I am to lazy to reverse engineer the build.
What I do know:Rapid Shot does not allows you to reload heavy crossbows as a free action though, and not can you reload a heavy crossbow with one arm, so each set of arms can only handle on crossbow meaning you get 3 crossbows. This does not including the summoner since I am assuming he will be casting.
Theorycraft:
At lower levels as a fighter my AC would be high enough that I would be hard to hit, but eventually AC becomes laughable, and I would dump it for more offense. I figure if I can get my initiative up high enough and get to go first I can kill a lot of things before they get to do anything. I have yet to play a high level fighter(as a player), and this gives me the chance to test this theory.
edit:for clarity
Am I wrong or at 7th level couldn't you have a flying Eidolon have 3 sets of arms and weapon training. Take Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Rapid Reload and be shooting 6 Heavy Crossbow Bolts a round? Using the Serpantine build his Dex would be 20 so he would have like a +8 to hit without any magic items...
Uh, no, notsomuch. Math:
+5 Dex
+6 BAB
+1 PBS
-2 Rapid Shot
-6/-10 two-weapon fighting without any feats and with non-light weapons
That's a +4 to hit with the primary weapon and a +0 with the secondaries.
You'd need 3.5 to really get crazy with all of that. Quickloading hand crossbows, heh.
Here's a good place to start for pathfinder
Rapid Reload (Combat)
Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy). You can
reload such weapons quickly.
Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your
chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for
a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy
crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack
of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for hand crossbow or light
crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a
full-attack action as you could attack if you were using
a bow.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move
action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round
action to reload a heavy crossbow.
Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each
time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow.
I'll post my build(s) in just a moment.
Hailing from wherever he pleases, Summoning Sam!
Summoning Sam
Male Half-Elf Summoner 20
Alignment: CG
Str: 7 (-2)
Dex: 26 (+8) [7 points, +6 enhance., +2 levels, +3 inherent]
Con: 28 (+9) [10 points, +6 enhance., +2 levels, +2 inherent, +2 racial]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Cha: 16 (+3) [7 points, +1 levels]
Class and Racial Abilities:
Low Light Vision
Elf Blood
Keen Senses
Cantrips
Eidolon
Life Link
Summon Monster I-IX (Sp)
Bond Senses
Shield Ally (Ex)
Maker’s Call (Su)
Transposition (Su)
Aspect (Su)
Greater shield ally (Su)
Life bond (Su)
Merge Forms (Su)
Greater Aspect (Su) *see eidolon*
Twin Form (Su)
Hit Dice: 20d8+200
Hit Points: 290
AC: 48 (+9 Armor, +4 Shield Ally, +8 Dex, +8 Nat. AC, +4 Deflect., +4 Dodge, +1 Insight) [34 Flat Footed, 27 Touch]
Init: 12 (+8 Dexterity, +4 Feat)
Speed: 30ft
Saves:
Fortitude: 21 (6 Base, 9 Con., 2 Feat, 4 Shield Ally)
Reflex: 20 (6 Base, 8 Dex., 2 Feat, 4 Shield Ally)
Will: 18 (12 Base, 2 Feat, 4 Shield Ally)
BAB:
Ranged Atk: None
Melee Atk: +13/+8/+3 (BAB -2 Str)
CMB: 13 (15 BAB, -2 Str)
CMD: 30 (15 BAB, -2 Str, +4 Deflect., +4 Dodge, +1 Insight)
Skills:
Ride 63 (20 Ranks, +20 Competence, +6 Skill Focus, +8 Racial, +8 Dex., +3 Trained, -2 Armor Check)
Spellcraft 23 (20 Ranks, +3 Trained)
Feats:
Skill Focus: Ride (Half-Elf)
Mounted Combat(1 HD)
Improved Initiative (3 HD)
Endurance (5 HD)
Diehard (7 HD)
Trick Riding (9 HD)
Toughness (11 HD)
Improved Shared Spells (13 HD)
Quicken Spell (15 HD)
Lightning Reflexes (17 HD)
Iron Will (19 HD)
Equipment:
Manual of Quickness in Action +3
Manual of Bodily Health +2
Celestial Armor
Ring of Protection +4
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Robe of Dodging +4
Vest of Constitution +6
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Boots of Riding +20
Money:
-880,000-
82500
55000
22400
32000
5000
40000
36000
36000
40000
-536100-
Spells Known/Per Day:
0-lvl: acid Splash, detect Magic, light, mending, message, read magic
1st-lvl: enlarge person, expeditious retreat, Identify, reduce person, rejuvenate eidolon(lesser), shield
6 per day
2nd-lvl: barkskin, blur, glitterdust, haste, see invisibility, summon eidolon, windwall
6 per day
3rd-lvl: dispel magic, evolution surge, fly, invisibility (greater), locate creature, rejuvenate eidolon
6 per day
4th-lvl: evolution surge(greater), mage’s faithful hound, purified calling, summon monster V, transmogrify, wall of stone
5 per day
5th-lvl: dispel magic (greater), heroism (greater), rejuvenate eidolon (greater), teleport (greater), true seeing
5 Per day
6th-lvl: dimensional lock, maze, protection from spells, summon monster IX, teleportation circle
Sam walks just behind Eddie whenever in dangerous territory.
And his huge white 8 limbed bear, Eidolon Eddie!
Huge(Long) Eidolon Quadruped 15
Alignment: CG
Str: 52 (+21) [14 Base, +3 Levels, +8 sum. lvl, +16 Huge, 5 Inherent, 6 Enhance.]
Dex: 28 (+9) [14 Base, +8 sum. lvl, -4 Huge, +4 inherent, +6 Enhance.]
Con: 21 (+5) [13 Base, +8 Huge]
Int: 7 (-2) [7 Base]
Wis: 10 (+0) [10 Base]
Cha: 11 (+0) [11 Base]
Class and Racial Abilities:
Darkvision
Link
Share Spells
Evasion
Devotion
Multiattack
Improved Evasion
Pounce
Rend
Trip
Evolutions: 31 Points (26 base +5 Half Elf Summoner)
(1)Pounce
(2)Trip
(10)Huge
(1)Improved Damage: Claws
(1)Racial Skill: Perception
(2)Rend
(2)Limbs (Arms)
(2)Limbs (Arms)
(1)Claws
(1)Claws
(1)Claws
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
-Summoner- (6 points, costs 3 via Greater Aspect)
(1)Racial Skill (Ride)
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Scent
Hit Dice: 15d10+75
Hit Points: 157
AC: 55 (31 Natural Armor, +8 Armor, +9 Dex, -2 Size) [47 Flat Footed, 17 Touch]
Init: 13 (+9 Dexterity, +4 Feat)
Speed: 40ft
Saves:
Fortitude: 18 (9 Base, 5 Con., 4 Resistance)
Reflex: 22 (9 Base, 9 Dex., 4 Resistance)
Will: 11 (5 Base, 2 Feat, 4 Resistance) [+4 Moral vs. Enchantment]
BAB:
Ranged Atk: None
Melee Atk: 1 Bite +35 (2d6+34), 6 Claws +38 (3d6+34), Rend
(Attack Breakdown: BAB 15, +21 Str., +5 Enhance., -2 Size, -4 Power Attack)
(Damage Breakdown: 2d6 [Huge Bite]; 3d6[Huge++ Claw], +21 Str, +5 Enhance, +8 Power Attack)
Rend: Every 2nd claw in 1 round; 3d6+31 (1½ Str Bonus)
Space: 15 ft; Reach: 10 ft
CMB: 45 (15 BAB, +21 Str., +2 Size, +5 Enhance) [-4 During Power Attack]
CMD: 47 (15 BAB, +21 Str., +9 Dex., +2 Size)
Skills:
Perception 26 (15 Ranks, +3 Trained, +8 Racial)
Intimidate 18 (15 Ranks, +3 Trained)
Fly 23 (15 Ranks, +3 Trained, +9 Dex., -4 Size)
Acrobatics 27 (15 Ranks, +3 Trained, +9 Dex)
Feats:
Combat Reflexes (1 HD)
Power Attack (3 HD)
Improved natural Attack (5 HD)
Endurance (7 HD)
Diehard (9 HD)
Improved Initiative (11 HD)
Iron Will (13 HD)
Bodyguard (15 HD)
Equipment:
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5
Amulet of mighty Fists +5
Manual of Quickness in Action +4
Bracers of Armor +8
Belt of Dexterity +6
Mask of Strength +6
Cloak of Resistance +4
*Permanent See Invisibility clvl 20*
Money:
-536100-
137500
125000
110000
64000
36000
36000
16000
5000
-1600-
He also has some huge saddlebags but, I cannot find em in the Core Book, pretty sure they are not over 1600 though
Ya know, looking at the item creation costs ect...I've realized 3 things.
A fighter with timestop isn't so scary since he can't attack anything with it.
An item with permanent true strike would be useless after the first hit, unless you can turn it off/on again.
The cost of something like a wish/day item would be over 300k...
I'm not to sure I'm afraid of a fighter with anything he can afford...
What's the most brokenly overpowered item anyone here can think of that doesn't cost over 880k? Yeah I know a player can't buy something worth over so much logically, this is purely for fun.
I can think of one really sick way to use it...the party pools together for a 5 wish/day item (1.5mil), uses it to get +5 all stats, then sells it (half price). Assuming they could find a buyer >_> It would end up saving each of them 450,000(4 people in the party).
If you could get continuous Mage Armor there'd be no need for bracers of armor below +5. If you could get continuous Bear's Endurance there'd be no need for the belt of great constitution or w/e it's called.
It's clearly not meant in that way.
And you don't need a continuous true strike, you use a use-activated one with unlimited uses.
There's no rules for making a custom feat. There are rules, in the book(RAW), for making magic items, so yes, it's very different.Actually there really aren't rules for this, rather there is a pricing guideline to help DMs who have made such items.
There is a difference that seems to be lost on many.
But this thread seems to have turned from a fun exercise to something else and I don't think that I like it much. Personally I find responding with phrases like 'flawed disposition' to be insulting even if not directed at me.
As such I don't think I'm going to follow this thread any longer. Wraith, enjoy as you might and hope that you have fun with it.
-James
It's fine to tell me "only pre-generated items" but to say I can use ONE of the rules for non slotted items is like feeding me scraps and telling me I'm not allowed to eat what they came from.
Ya know, looking at the item creation costs ect...I've realized 3 things.
A fighter with timestop isn't so scary since he can't attack anything with it.
An item with permanent true strike would be useless after the first hit, unless you can turn it off/on again.
The cost of something like a wish/day item would be over 300k...
I'm not to sure I'm afraid of a fighter with anything he can afford...
What's the most brokenly overpowered item anyone here can think of that doesn't cost over 880k? Yeah I know a player can't buy something worth over so much logically, this is purely for fun.
I can think of one really sick way to use it...the party pools together for a 5 wish/day item (1.5mil), uses it to get +5 all stats, then sells it (half price). Assuming they could find a buyer >_> It would end up saving each of them 450,000(4 people in the party).
Timestop is never scarey alone. The issue is that when the timestop is over the victim could be subject to some bad debuffs or surrounded by people/things that want him dead, and even if the victim survives he may be very bad off.
With a slotless item you are still using RAW items, but now must pay double for it. Stight forward ,easy and everyone has access to the item.
Sorry if I'm making a little threadjack on this, but by RAW this is not completely true - at least, not for some complex magic items (like the various Belts and Headbands).
The fact is, those items are already made with an assumption, which follows these two rules:
PRD -> Magic Items -> Magic Item Creations:
"Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities."
(note: this, for example, is the case of staves (which allow for casting multiple spells)
"Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price."
(note: these are, for example, the various Belts and Headbands which grant multiple ability scores)
A +2 Belt of Physical Perfection has a cost of 16.000 gp because it sticks to the aforementioned rule. Which is, 4.000 gp for a +2 to one ability score, then 6.000 gp for adding an additional +2 to another ability score (4.000 gp with a 50% increase), and then another 6.000 gp for adding +2 to yet another different ability score.
Making an 'Ioun Stone of Physical Perfection +2' (the same item above, only slotless) by RAW would cost 24.000 gp, not 32.000. Why ? Because the +2 to an ability score would cost 8.000 gp if made slotless; we would not have to pay twice the already increased cost (6.000), because the rules above strictly speak that such an increment in price has to be made only for items that take up space on the character's body.
[/threadjack off]
Having said that, however, I agree that an 'acid test' between two RAW characters should better be made sticking with RAW items and not 'custom items'; the only exception I would personally make would be to grant 'custom items' which stick to 'clear and unambiguous pricing rules' - for example, I would allow a character to make a Belt of +4 Str/+2 Con because the price is rather 'easy' to adjudicate - although even this is not completely true, since some would give price this custom-made item 22.000 gp - 16.000 for Str +4 , plus 6.000 (4000 x 1.5) for Con +2 - and some would price it 28.000 gp - 4.000 for Con +2, plus 24.000 (16.000 x 1.5) for Str +4 - ...
Just my 2 (slotless) c.
Can some one plz explain to me why they think the 15ft reach eidolon can get 3 AoO against the charging fighter. People do realize that the huge threatening zone, and even the spiked chain cheese from 3.5 is really not possible, and werent in 3.5 either. From the rules
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the
same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more
than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks
are at your full normal attack bonus.
So he can move through all the threatened squares and only get one AoO on him, just like the rules in 3.5. (checked my books for it)
Besides that i think i might spend some time just making a 20 level fighter and 20 level eidolon, and writing a statistics program that can simulate the dice roles and we can see who wins the most.
Also i would think that any fighter would go for the rider in the fight, and not the eidolon. Since the eidolon can dodge attacks if its rider succeds in the maneuver. the rider dont have that benifit and a very low ac.
i might write my 2 build in here later, with a final graph if i have the time. That would put this discussion down i think. Personally i think the fighter would win the fight
ok it does seem like i will have to eat my own words. just did some calculations, and according to RAW and eidolon can get a wooping 61 ac, way more than a fighter can ever hit. So it will win that fight
thats an biped eidolon with
Huge 10pts
improved natural armor x 4 = 4 pts
ekstra arms x 3 =6 pts
claws x3 = 3pts
improved damage claws =1pts
push (claws) =1pts
reach (claws) =1 pts
the eidolon will then have 7 attacks with claws, wearing a heavy shield in the last arm he will have an ac of
10+18(natural armor base)+8(natural armor evu)+7(heavy shield +5)+8(bracers of armor)+5(natural armor amulet)+5 (ring of protection)= 61 ac
this would leave the summoner with around 20 ac, asuming he is self buffed and have 14 dex. but since any summoner this fragile would spend all of its time inside the eidolon it would not make that big of a difference. Since the fighter would have around 41 to hit, it would still require a natural 20 and with 350+ hp combined in the eidolon, he wouldnt stand a chance.
He would be able to out dps the eidolon vs any normal lvl 20 creep. But the eidolon would win in an arena fight against him.
A ranged fighter with a +5 brilliant energy flaming compo +5 longbow, might be able to take down the eidolon before it ever gets close though. since then it would only have 46 ac. and with attacks of 34/34/34/29/24/19 he would be able to hit it quite well. doing d8+36+d6 dam a hit. at max range it would die before it got close.
|
OK kids; a few things.
First, Rend triggers once per turn, when 2 or more claws hit one target. See beastiaty.
Second, Improved Natural Attack and the evolution ar ruled to not work together. So clawmaster is not the best build. At that level both summoner and eidilon should be spending on Spell Resistance 31 anyway; not natural armor. Not that level 20 exists for anything other than mental excercise "look at how strong" theorycrafting.
Third, as long as you're doing permanency on 20th level guys permanent enlarge person is pretty cheap; walk around with a Gargantuan eidilon and Alter Self if you need to go into dungeon.
The AC 61 forgets to remove the "Huge" penalty. The summoner should D Door his Eidilon to the shooter if we are going into a fire war.
Eidilons are not proficient with shields; dunno if they can be made such via feats or not.. I know they can't use armor. Any rulings on this?
OK kids; a few things.
First, Rend triggers once per turn, when 2 or more claws hit one target. See beastiaty.
Second, Improved Natural Attack and the evolution ar ruled to not work together. So clawmaster is not the best build. At that level both summoner and eidilon should be spending on Spell Resistance 31 anyway; not natural armor. Not that level 20 exists for anything other than mental excercise "look at how strong" theorycrafting.
Third, as long as you're doing permanency on 20th level guys permanent enlarge person is pretty cheap; walk around with a Gargantuan eidilon and Alter Self if you need to go into dungeon.
The AC 61 forgets to remove the "Huge" penalty. The summoner should D Door his Eidilon to the shooter if we are going into a fire war.
Eidilons are not proficient with shields; dunno if they can be made such via feats or not.. I know they can't use armor. Any rulings on this?
Where was it ruled the improved natural weapon feat and evolution don't work together?
Summoners don't have ddoor or alter self. Wasting a teleport on every single attack wouldn't be smart, so pounce gets more throughout the day. Without alter self a gargantuan eidolon is kindof hard to dungeon crawl with, so I'll just cast the spell once per encounter.
I agree with The Wraith about simple magic item creation, but there's an unwritten rule that just because all physical items were belts, and all mental items were headbands in the Core Rulebook, I can't make Gauntlets of Dexterity and use them in a fight, or else the babies cry.
OK kids; a few things.
First, Rend triggers once per turn, when 2 or more claws hit one target. See beastiaty.
Second, Improved Natural Attack and the evolution ar ruled to not work together. So clawmaster is not the best build. At that level both summoner and eidilon should be spending on Spell Resistance 31 anyway; not natural armor. Not that level 20 exists for anything other than mental excercise "look at how strong" theorycrafting.
Third, as long as you're doing permanency on 20th level guys permanent enlarge person is pretty cheap; walk around with a Gargantuan eidilon and Alter Self if you need to go into dungeon.
The AC 61 forgets to remove the "Huge" penalty. The summoner should D Door his Eidilon to the shooter if we are going into a fire war.
Eidilons are not proficient with shields; dunno if they can be made such via feats or not.. I know they can't use armor. Any rulings on this?
Where was it ruled the improved natural weapon feat and evolution don't work together?
I asked about this during the beta testing, but it got overlooked. I don't see any rulings against it so I think it should be allowed RAW. I will bring it up after the competition in the rules forum so we can get it FAQ'd. I should be ready in about 5 minutes. Is your mounted version revised to work like you wanted him to or will you just go with a different concept?
I should be ready with a RAW version. No boots with riding either. I'd don't like the idea that anyone can blame the outcome on items.
So a light crossbow with rapid reload would workbut heavy wouldn't
...so if I take limbs 3 times(6) weapon training(2) flight(2) and feats rapid reload, Rapid Shot and Point Blank...that would give me 6 attacks...but they would be at a big negative for 2 weapon fighting even though they are different arms?
Yes. You always get a penalty for using more than one weapon. Multi-weapon fighting might help, but since you are suffering from using rapid shot, and multiple weapons you will still have big penalties.
it still takes two hand to load a light crossbow so even with six arms you can only load 3 of them after the first attack.Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
So you are taking a -2 for shooting with one hand, -2 for rapid shot, -2 for multiweapon fighting, and for all that trouble wind wall , a 3rd level spell shuts you down.
Well, anyways, sorry about that Wraithstrike. I didn't intend to get you all excited and into it just to pull out. I just couldn't take all that pressure, and the last ruling just broke my back. I'll tell you what though, I think your opt fu was fine, you just rushed it a bit so some figures were off, but that critical two weapon spec made me wanna make for damn sure I didn't give you a full attack. Also gave me some ideas for future builds, like giving my eidolon lunge, haha.
Brilliant energy wouldn't have been a good idea anyways, as it doesn't ignore natural armor, and on a +5 weapon, it would have cost an extra 110.2k per weapon, and I don't think anyone would spend +4 on arrows >_>.
Well, anyways, sorry about that Wraithstrike. I didn't intend to get you all excited and into it just to pull out. I just couldn't take all that pressure, and the last ruling just broke my back. I'll tell you what though, I think your opt fu was fine, you just rushed it a bit so some figures were off, but that critical two weapon spec made me wanna make for damn sure I didn't give you a full attack. Also gave me some ideas for future builds, like giving my eidolon lunge, haha.
Brilliant energy wouldn't have been a good idea anyways, as it doesn't ignore natural armor, and on a +5 weapon, it would have cost an extra 110.2k per weapon, and I don't think anyone would spend +4 on arrows >_>.
I thought about the brilliant energy idea not helping after the fact. Most monsters don't wear armor anyway, but in a humanoid based campaign it would be nice.
The point of the build was to stun-lock(WoW term?) the opponent. In that first fight my strategy was supposed to sunder the summoner's spell component pouch so he could not cast spells. Between the dice rolls and my converting everything over to this site I forgot about the sunder attempts. With you stunned or at least staggered, and the majority of his spells, if not all of them, unavailable I figured I had a good chance at winning, and with 8 attacks I expected crits to popup with my 15-20 range. The same strategy also works in a real game since I would normally win initiative. Even if I can't one-round an opponent my deadly defense gives me more chances for a stun-lock. It was cool though. My players are on vacation IRL, and I got a chance to do something until they got back.I will start a rules thread on the Natural Armor thing. I don't have any summoners in my game right now, which is why I don't know them well, but it does need to be clarified. I am guessing that others may have the same question.
Yeah, with all the critical effects you can use in pathfinder, fighters are alot more techy than they used to be. If i was smart I would have cast the only two spells that mattered: Enlarge and True Seeing, after that no further spells would be needed. Oh, and I wasn't gonna cast maze, that's just, super cheese, lol.
Yeah, with all the critical effects you can use in pathfinder, fighters are alot more techy than they used to be. If i was smart I would have cast the only two spells that mattered: Enlarge and True Seeing, after that no further spells would be needed. Oh, and I wasn't gonna cast maze, that's just, super cheese, lol.
I figured if I was a caster and I needed a breather that is the way to do it. By the time the fighter comes back I would have my hit points back. I doubt he could get to a caster twice so better make the first time count. I was surprised when you did not cast true seeing, but since you did not roll a knowledge arcana check I figured your character had not figured out what was going on. Next time I play(IRL) I will do a crit focused build based on a single weapon. TWF takes up a lot of feats, which I already knew. I just wanted to try it.
yes apparently i forgot the huge "bonus" in my ac 61 eidolon, which would put it at 57 if im not mistaking much. Still tough to beat for a fighter though.
The whole reason i would recommend a brilliant energy weapon against this type of eidolon, was so you can ignore the shield bonus it has. +7 since its a +5 heavy shield. I dont see any rules at all, that suggests an eidolon cant take use shields as a feat. The eidolon would also be crazy to not sport a +8 bracer of armor, which by RAW dont count as armor, i.e the eidolon can use it.
This means that the brilliant energy weapon, or arrows, would effectively lower the ac with 15, giving it 32 after the huge deduction. meaning a fighter would chop it to pieces.
The eidolon will not be able to kill the fighter in one round, and with a 15-20 crit range, giving permastun on the eidolon most of the time would mean certain death.
but i still think a fighter without the brilliant energy weapon, would be ripped to pieces, as he wouldnt be able to touch the eidolon. (besides a nat. 20)
yes apparently i forgot the huge "bonus" in my ac 61 eidolon, which would put it at 57 if im not mistaking much. Still tough to beat for a fighter though.
The whole reason i would recommend a brilliant energy weapon against this type of eidolon, was so you can ignore the shield bonus it has. +7 since its a +5 heavy shield. I dont see any rules at all, that suggests an eidolon cant take use shields as a feat. The eidolon would also be crazy to not sport a +8 bracer of armor, which by RAW dont count as armor, i.e the eidolon can use it.
This means that the brilliant energy weapon, or arrows, would effectively lower the ac with 15, giving it 32 after the huge deduction. meaning a fighter would chop it to pieces.
The eidolon will not be able to kill the fighter in one round, and with a 15-20 crit range, giving permastun on the eidolon most of the time would mean certain death.
but i still think a fighter without the brilliant energy weapon, would be ripped to pieces, as he wouldnt be able to touch the eidolon. (besides a nat. 20)
@Thalin:I did a search under James profile, and at the other site. I could not find the ruling. I will FAQ it.
@Nick: I think the for not getting the bracers was money. Trying to hold up two characters is difficult, and most people are going to gun for the Summoner anyway. I only glanced at the character sheet, and did not notice the shield. The character was supposed to be based off of a regular campaign, and not fight specific. I have played in many monster and humanoid based games so I don't know which type is more relevant at higher levels. Most NPC's don't have a + 60ish AC so from that point my + 40ish to hit is normally ok. The summoner is really more like a CR 24(just a guess) most likely if it were included as an encounter. I am sure if an arena focused build would have done better.|
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The Summoner spell list confusion stems from the way the lists are presented in the APG.
For a full listing of the Summoners available spells, you need to look at the end of the Summoner class description (Core pg64). Here, Dimension Door is indeed listed.
If you look at the Spell Lists in Chapter 5: Spells under Summoner (Core pgs199-200), you only get the spells that are newly added by the APG. As such, Dimension Door is not listed as it isn't a new spell.
Cheers
yes apparently i forgot the huge "bonus" in my ac 61 eidolon, which would put it at 57 if im not mistaking much. Still tough to beat for a fighter though.
The whole reason i would recommend a brilliant energy weapon against this type of eidolon, was so you can ignore the shield bonus it has. +7 since its a +5 heavy shield. I dont see any rules at all, that suggests an eidolon cant take use shields as a feat. The eidolon would also be crazy to not sport a +8 bracer of armor, which by RAW dont count as armor, i.e the eidolon can use it.
This means that the brilliant energy weapon, or arrows, would effectively lower the ac with 15, giving it 32 after the huge deduction. meaning a fighter would chop it to pieces.
The eidolon will not be able to kill the fighter in one round, and with a 15-20 crit range, giving permastun on the eidolon most of the time would mean certain death.
but i still think a fighter without the brilliant energy weapon, would be ripped to pieces, as he wouldnt be able to touch the eidolon. (besides a nat. 20)
The AC potential of an Enlarged Eidolon is as follows
10 Base2 Base Natural
16 Progression Natural
5 Huge Natural
8 Improved Natural (only 4 pts, worthy investment)
8 Armor Bracers
5 Deflection
5 Enhancement Natural
8 Dex
4 Shield Spell
-3 Garg
1 Insight
1 Dodge Feat
75
It's arguable that the Shield spell applies to brilliant energy, but by RAW I don't think it does, so a brilliant energy weapon has to deal with 63 AC max, fighter with +44 hit needs 19+ on his strongest hits, otherwise a nat 20. While expensive, a TWF or 2HF fighter are both doable with a +5 brilliant energy. A shield would cost the eidolon the use of a 2 point evolution, a feat, and an extra 25k for 3 extra potential AC, that and the dodge feat are to expensive for my tastes.
Rest assured, a properly built Eidolon WILL kill a fighter in a single full round attack (barring displacement when the eidolon has no truesight :p), as they can easily do over 350 damage a round with 7 attacks at full base attack bonus, at the above mentioned AC, during a charge no less. The fighter can hit the rider all he wants. He'll never outright kill him in a single round, my Summoner/Eidolon needed over 400 damage total to be killed, and while riding it didn't matter if the summoner became staggered, once the eidolon is positioned properly, and gets it's full round attack, it's over.
If the summoner's worried in a real adventure, he can just merge forms if he wants to, but I would prefer to score a strong riding skill item and use mounted combat against crits. As wraith said, without basic item creation rules, it is hard to split a good ac/hp summoner with a good ac/damage eidolon, but not that hard. My raw build had it, until people started telling me between my eidolon/summoner only 4 natural armor evolutions could be taken, not 4 each, and I don't agree with that.
On Dimension Door, I somehow skipped it, oops. Definitely taking that one. Therein lies a problem with a gargantuan...you need to be level 24 to haul a gargantuan creature, as they are worth 8 mediums. So the question is:
Do I want a 15' reach so that no grounded enemy ever gets within 10' of my eidolon via bite+trip, or do I want to risk an attack before my summoner acts, whom DDoors then Quickened Enlarges him.
yes apparently i forgot the huge "bonus" in my ac 61 eidolon, which would put it at 57 if im not mistaking much. Still tough to beat for a fighter though.
The whole reason i would recommend a brilliant energy weapon against this type of eidolon, was so you can ignore the shield bonus it has. +7 since its a +5 heavy shield. I dont see any rules at all, that suggests an eidolon cant take use shields as a feat. The eidolon would also be crazy to not sport a +8 bracer of armor, which by RAW dont count as armor, i.e the eidolon can use it.
This means that the brilliant energy weapon, or arrows, would effectively lower the ac with 15, giving it 32 after the huge deduction. meaning a fighter would chop it to pieces.
The eidolon will not be able to kill the fighter in one round, and with a 15-20 crit range, giving permastun on the eidolon most of the time would mean certain death.
but i still think a fighter without the brilliant energy weapon, would be ripped to pieces, as he wouldnt be able to touch the eidolon. (besides a nat. 20)
The AC potential of an Enlarged Eidolon is as follows
10 Base
2 Base Natural
16 Progression Natural
5 Huge Natural
8 Improved Natural (only 4 pts, worthy investment)
8 Armor Bracers
5 Deflection
5 Enhancement Natural
8 Dex
4 Shield Spell
-3 Garg
1 Insight
1 Dodge Feat
75It's arguable that the Shield spell applies to brilliant energy, but by RAW I don't think it does, so a brilliant energy weapon has to deal with 63 AC max, fighter with +44 hit needs 19+ on his strongest hits, otherwise a nat 20. While expensive, a TWF or 2HF fighter are both doable with a +5 brilliant energy. A shield would cost the eidolon the use of a 2 point evolution, a feat, and an extra 25k for 3 extra potential AC, that and the dodge feat are to expensive for my tastes.
Rest assured, a properly built Eidolon WILL kill a fighter in a single full round attack (barring displacement when the eidolon has no truesight :p), as they can...
Straight melee is almost suicidal. A fighter can get a high AC, but that normally takes away other things. By RAW you avoid shield bonuses to AC with the brilliant energy, but unless the fighter gets a stunlock in one round one. it will be a quick match. There is a variant fighter that can make a touch attack but even then a fighter still hase to hope for a 15 or better on the dice, and even after that the fort save has to be failed. A melee fighter that is not crit based build is in even more trouble.
Exactly. Now a crit based ARCHER is somethin' scary. Granted their crit range is small, but they progress very fast, allowing the same number of hits as a TWF from 1-10, at a ridiculous range, with half the weapon cost, which is pretty friggin cool...if only there was a way to get a higher crit chance with a ranged weapon...
Exactly. Now a crit based ARCHER is somethin' scary. Granted their crit range is small, but they progress very fast, allowing the same number of hits as a TWF from 1-10, at a ridiculous range, with half the weapon cost, which is pretty friggin cool...if only there was a way to get a higher crit chance with a ranged weapon...
An archer has great damage. Even without the crits things can get really nasty. I was going to fly, and then sunder that spell component pouch. From there I was going to focus on the summoner, and hope the Eidolon could not fly. If you could fly I was going to bull rush the summoner off of the Eidolon with trick shot all still focus all my attacks on him.
ORDepending on whether or not the 5 foot step was there I would go invisible, if only to get out of the Eidolon's reach or try to finish the summoner off.
...
The AC potential of an Enlarged Eidolon is as follows
10 Base
2 Base Natural
16 Progression Natural
5 Huge Natural
8 Improved Natural (only 4 pts, worthy investment)
8 Armor Bracers
5 Deflection
5 Enhancement Natural
8 Dex
4 Shield Spell
-3 Garg
1 Insight
1 Dodge Feat
75
I do have to say im not completely sure how you get this much. 8 as a dex modifier does seem kinda heavy, esp. with a huge eidolon, and also i think the dodge feat is kinda lame, so going for it is kinda meh. The insight bonus to AC he gets from where?
My whole point in NOT having the rider on the eidolon, but safely inside it. Was becouse with all these items on the eidolon, the summoner will have about 25 ac, even at level 20, and would therefore get a s*#~ load of arrows in his chest on the very first round. and would be dead no later than the second round. a ranged fighter will sport a max range of is it 2000f? and if i dont remember that wrong something even way beyond what dimension door can take the eidolon. So he will kill the summoner before he gets close.
If the summoner is safe inside the eidolon, and if your playing a summoner, you prolly will be if it gets maxed this much. it will still take a coupple turns to get close. and a single crit would give the fighter a worthy shot at winning.
But i think we can all agree that this is kinda a stupid discussion, tbh i think some of the summoner builds are just plainly broken. Whereas the fighter is not. It is not that hard to destroy a system and be an optimizer and the best in the party, the question is wether is fun or not. Personally I would remove the cheeze as a gm if possible. Or just plainly have a wiz in every fight vs my pcs to simply dissmiss the eidolon. Its that simpel to beat a summoner. Which is the reason i think he is a broken class, a little OP with some huge weaknesses, and if the gm uses these the player is most likely to complain a lot, getting angry, and ruining the game session. Really not something that great.
Also Calypsopoxta, can you give me a summary (just a quick one) of how you would make the eidolon give 300+ dam a round? (without the obvious exploit of a single weapon granting 4 more attacks than the 7 on the table, another rule to cheeze to even consider)
1d6 Bite, 1d4 Claws Base
1d8 Bite, 1d6 Claws Large
2d6 Bite, 1d8 Claws Huge
3d6 Bite, 2d6 Claws Gargantuan
3d6 Bite, 3d6 Claws Improved Natural Weapon Feat:Claws
3d6 Bite, 4d6 Claws Improved Damage Evolution
+22 Str +5 Enhancement + 8 Power Attack = 1 Bite 3d6+35, 6 Claws 4d6+35 and every second claw rends for an extra 4d6+33 damage. My earlier 420 was incorrect, it's a lot more.
I just noticed recently that this is false Calypsopoxta. A creature may only Rend once per round, regardless of the number of attacks it can make with the appropriate weapons. Thought I'd share the find.
Rend (Ex) If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round. The type of attacks that must hit and the additional damage are included in the creature's description. The additional damage is usually equal to the damage caused by one of the attacks plus 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus.
Format: rend (2 claws, 1d8+9); Location: Special Attacks.