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I'm going; 25 point buy; Level 7; probably a APG rogue but I'm open to suggestions.... I like dwarfs but I know everyone is going to say go human or elf.
I'm only using the core rule book and the APG
I need help with deciding on feat trees
Class options
Item options
also any other comments are welcome as long as they are constructive.
Snipers are known for two things: sniping from afar, and staying hidden. My advice will help you nail the latter.
I'd recommend Goblin, but it doesn't sound like you are using the Bestiary.
My advice is to take lots of levels in rogue. Take the sniper archetype along with the camouflage, fast stealth, and stealthy sniper rogue talents.
Ability Scores: Max out Dexterity
Feats: Skill Focus (stealth), Sleathy, Weapon Finess; anythign else that enhances sniping/ranged attacks
Skills: Max out ranks in Perception and Stealth
Gear: cloak of elvenkind, elixirs of hiding
We have a 4th-level goblin in our party with a +31 stealth. He takes the sniping action with his shortbow and gets sneak attack all the time because nobody can ever find him (even after the -20 penalty).
He intends to take a few levels of shadowdancer for the hide in plain sight ability and eventually will have a hide check modifier well into the 60s. What's more, he will only suffer a -10 penalty on stealth checks made to snipe, which guarantees he will never be found. Ever. By anyone.
My suggest build above won't do as much damage as, say, a duel-wielding rogue would, but it makes up for that in DEFENSE.
Not being sensed by the enemy practically makes you immune to target effects.
Why come? do tell, I must know!
He intends to take a few levels of shadowdancer for the hide in plain sight ability and eventually will have a hide check modifier well into the 60s. What's more, he will only suffer a -10 penalty on stealth checks made to snipe, which guarantees he will never be found. Ever. By anyone.
stealthy sniper advanced rogue talent from the APG reduces the penalty.
I like this build:
Human Sniper Rogue 7
Str:18 +4
Dex:18 +4
Inic +8
Rogue Talents (3 +1favorite class)
- Combat Trick (Martial Weapon Proficiency)
- Bleeding Attack
- Weapon Training
- Sniper´s Eye
Feats
Human- Point Blank Shot
Lvl 1- Precise Shot
Lvl 3- Rapid Shot
Lvl 5- Deadly Aim
Lvl 7- Improved Initiative
Longbow Composite
Ranged Sneak Attack 4d6 50 feet
Attack = Bab 5 + 4dex + 1WF = +10
Rapid Shot (0-30 feet) = +9/+9 dmg = 1d8 +4str +1PB +4d6 + 4bleed damage
Rapid Shot (30-50 feet)= +8/+8 dmg = 1d8 +4str +4d6 + 4bleed damage
Deadly Aim (0-30 feet) = +7/+7 dmg = 1d8 +4str +4DA +1PB +4d6 +4bleeddmg
Deadly Aim (30-50 feet)= +6/+6 dmg = 1d8 +4str +4DA +4d6 + 4bleed damage
With magic itens it is better.
Actually you can dual wield and be sniper rogue, its a bit cheesy, but dual wield 2 repeating crossbow's, get crossbow mastery and get glove of storing - you can ALWAYS full attack as reloading time is free action, putting away crossbow and getting it back is also a free action :)
Snipers are known for two things: sniping from afar, and staying hidden. My advice will help you nail the latter.
I'd recommend Goblin, but it doesn't sound like you are using the Bestiary.
My advice is to take lots of levels in rogue. Take the sniper archetype along with the camouflage, fast stealth, and stealthy sniper rogue talents.
Ability Scores: Max out Dexterity
Feats: Skill Focus (stealth), Sleathy, Weapon Finess; anythign else that enhances sniping/ranged attacks
Skills: Max out ranks in Perception and Stealth
Gear: cloak of elvenkind, elixirs of hidingWe have a 4th-level goblin in our party with a +31 stealth. He takes the sniping action with his shortbow and gets sneak attack all the time because nobody can ever find him (even after the -20 penalty).
He intends to take a few levels of shadowdancer for the hide in plain sight ability and eventually will have a hide check modifier well into the 60s. What's more, he will only suffer a -10 penalty on stealth checks made to snipe, which guarantees he will never be found. Ever. By anyone.
That's an awesome goblin!
I'll be sure to roll one the next time my good friend DM's - I'll get punched for it but DAMN it's gonna be worth it! :)
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My opinion:
Halfling with Swift as Shadows (APG)
Stealthy sniper Rogue talent (APG)
Max levels in Rogue
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No Sniping penalty
Increased stealth from size
With feats, I wouldn't waste my time increasing your stealth modifier anymore because after level 10 you will have no penalties to stealth. I would go with Weapon Focus, Shadow Strike, Precise Shot, Improved Initiative, and Go Unnoticed (not necessarily in that order).
With Items, if you GM let's you, stack as many +1d6 elemental enchants on your bow as possible. Sniper's goggles, Shadowed armor, and Cloak of Resistance are all awesome items.
Sniping is a full-round action so you only get one shot but you wanna make it count, hence the lack of Deadly Aim. Alternatively you could add more +1 bonuses instead of +1d6 bonuses to your weapon and then take Deadly Aim. Also, focus on casters, they hate sneak attack damage :)
My opinion:
Halfling with Swift as Shadows (APG)
Stealthy sniper Rogue talent (APG)
Max levels in Rogue
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No Sniping penalty
Increased stealth from sizeWith feats, I wouldn't waste my time increasing your stealth modifier anymore because after level 10 you will have no penalties to stealth. I would go with Weapon Focus, Shadow Strike, Precise Shot, Improved Initiative, and Go Unnoticed (not necessarily in that order).
With Items, if you GM let's you, stack as many +1d6 elemental enchants on your bow as possible. Sniper's goggles, Shadowed armor, and Cloak of Resistance are all awesome items.
Sniping is a full-round action so you only get one shot but you wanna make it count, hence the lack of Deadly Aim. Alternatively you could add more +1 bonuses instead of +1d6 bonuses to your weapon and then take Deadly Aim. Also, focus on casters, they hate sneak attack damage :)
Halfling Zen Archer monk?
Max wisdom. Spend Ki points to do unarmed damage with your bow in a flurry of shots.You won't need to re-stealth. It will be dead.
So stupid question about goblins. You said they were the way to go, sparked my curiosity, and wow. Only question is this, do they get a +8 to stealth or just a +4? I know they get +4 as a racial, but on their size entry it says they should get a +4 as well.. do those stack or does the racial refer to this already?
The racial and size bonuses stack, so the total should be +8. That's the main advantage of choosing a goblin - sneaky little jerks, they are. ^__^
Goblins effectively get a +10 Stealth bonus that most no one else gets.
+4 racial
+4 size
+2 from Dexterity bonus
That's HUGE when you're talking opposed rolls.
Nothing a fireball cant fix at 1st level...
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Thanks for all the input guys... I want to use a rifle I think and a dwarf (even though i want to optimize i like flavor too). I like the idea of bleed damage on the snipe and i'm gunna take vital strike, obviously exotic weapon prof, deadly aim, point blank shot, then eventually far shot, improved and greater vital strike, maybe precise shot, but definitely shadow strike.
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Goblins effectively get a +10 Stealth bonus that most no one else gets.
+4 racial
+4 size
+2 from Dexterity bonusThat's HUGE when you're talking opposed rolls.
If you're sniping, halflings technically get a +14 (-10 to the sniping DC, +4 from size) which is even more huge when you are sniping. Not to mention the negative to movement doesn't matter that much because you are non-mobile when sniping.
Xen is spot on. I just made a level 1 Fighter/3 Rogue (For martial weapon, as well as a bonus feat). If you take Swift as Shadows, you reduce the sniping penalty by 10. Meaning, that his effective stealth while sniping was 34, and that was without stealthy as well.
Why take weapon finesse as a sniper... you are already using your dex for your to hit, it doesn't add anything, just is dead weight in terms of feats.
I was thinking about this as well, but am finally able to formulate the question. When is sniping effective?
By this I mean, with the sniping action, you can use a standard attack (1 arrow, no rapid shot, no many shot, no haste, etc.) add your sneak attack, and then use your move action to hide again.
Aside from the difficulties of actually getting an opponent flat-footed at range, a full round attack at 20th lvl will do somewhere in the neighborhood of 46d6 of damage with many shot and rapid shot. Thats pretty ridiculous, but with a sniping action, at most you are going to walk away with 14d6 damage at 20th lvl, and the ability to hide again. With a full round attack, could you not just stealth, one round, full attack the next, stealth one round, full attack.
That is an average of 23d6 (if everything hits again) compared to the average of 14d6 (if everything hits) of sniping. How is this even remotely a good deal?
Is there some way to stealth after a full round, as a swift action or something?
How is this even remotely a good deal?
Never being a serious/valid target for the enemy can be an unbelievably good deal.
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Aside from the difficulties of actually getting an opponent flat-footed at range, a full round attack at 20th lvl will do somewhere in the neighborhood of 46d6 of damage with many shot and rapid shot. Thats pretty ridiculous, but with a sniping action, at most you are going to walk away with 14d6 damage at 20th lvl, and the ability to hide again. With a full round attack, could you not just stealth, one round, full attack the next, stealth one round, full attack.
I thought sneak attack damage only applied to the first shot of a volley.
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I'd recommend 1 level of fighter (for the proficiencies mainly) and the rest in rogue. Invest max ranks in Use Magic Device until you have +19. Keep a Wand of Greater Invisibility on you all the time, as soon as you can afford it.
It's expensive enough that you do NOT want to use it every fight; it's only for the fights where things are looking rough and the single sneak attack/stealth routine isn't putting people down fast enough. UMD the wand (you only need to hit a 20) on those fights and full attack to your hearts content.
So basically you are choosing to be a bit less combat effective (in terms of damage that is) in a trade off to survive much much longer. So its like Combat Expertise ;)
EXACTLY!
I thought sneak attack damage only applied to the first shot of a volley.
It usually does, as you come out of hiding or lose your invisibility after the first shot.
I'd recommend 1 level of fighter (for the proficiencies mainly) and the rest in rogue. Invest max ranks in Use Magic Device until you have +19. Keep a Wand of Greater Invisibility on you all the time, as soon as you can afford it.
It's expensive enough that you do NOT want to use it every fight; it's only for the fights where things are looking rough and the single sneak attack/stealth routine isn't putting people down fast enough. UMD the wand (you only need to hit a 20) on those fights and full attack to your hearts content.
The sniper still fairs better at higher levels when things start to have see invisibility or true seeing all the time. At low to mid levels though, your idea may well be more efficient.
I was under the impression that a foe that is flatfooted, is flat footed throughout the round. Their AC doesn't change halfway through your round of action, only on their round. Because of that I thought that you could sneak attack across a full round action even. Even in the ability itself it never says that it is limited to the first strike.
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
Anytime it is denied... seems like during the full round it would be denied as well.
Apologies to Kortz. Due to a formatting error, I accidentally attributed one of my statements to his name in my above post.
MCarvin: Here is a quick character I made up I thought you could use as a guide/inspiration/just use for your own:
Wellby Tosscobble (7th-level halfling sniper, downloadble PDF character sheet).
Please note that he is 3gp over what the wealth by level guidelines say he should have. Hopefully, your GM won't make too much of a fuss about it. If he IS anal enough to make a stink about it, I recommend dropping the arrows (which are worth exactly 3gp) for the time being and relying on your free clubs (as they can be thrown from hiding) until you are able to take a fresh batch of arrows off of an ally's hands (which can be done as soon as play starts), or else loot some arrows from an enemy corpse after the first encounter resolves. I suppose you could also buy/steal some arrows later as well if the first two suggestions sound cheesy.
Couldn't you use greater feint/snipe to alternate the rounds in which you will do omega damage?
Kyle Drown was talking about the difference between 46d6 vs 14d6, couldn't you with greater feint, full round attack(46d6), greater feint+attack(14d6), full round attack again(46d6), or am I missing something?
Sure you could, but you would always be out in the open getting targeted BECAUSE you are doing so much damage.
Not exactly a sniper, which is what the OP was asking for.
Is there a formula for "aggro" as it were? Or is it just less likely that the GM will send the hounds?
Also what is the exact mechanic for sniping? I can't find it in the core rulebook or APG. Granted I'm still relatively new to pathfinder so I may just be looking in the wrong spot.
It has been my experience that intelligent enemies will focus fire on the most dangerous threat. If you are dealing 46d6 damage a round, it's probably you.
The sniping rules can be found under the Stealth skill in the core rulebook.
Sniping is also a neat idea to combine with 0th level spells. Something I am trying to formulate to represent benders... The idea is 1 level of sorcerer with the elemental bloodline to get electricity substitution. Then 11 levels of rogue (PFS) or more. This works nicely with the halfline since they get dex and cha.
So the character, at level 12, would have 6d6 sneak attack damage added to Acid Orb...making him have an Acidic Snipe, Ray of Frost for a Cold Snipe, and he can sub electric for either for an electric snipe. This would also make available his move (to rehide) and a swift for...whatever he wants.
It is a neat idea that I am still working on evolving, but the post above asking why anyone would want to only make one attack per round, the spell casting sniper is a good example (since you can only cast one spell per round)
PS - you could use the swift for a quickened spell if you wanted.